I'm not wanting to reopen old wounds, but I do need to summarize what happened to give enough background to my point.
A few days ago there was a situation on the forums. Either you know about it or don't. During that situation, I lost my temper. So, I took a break. I stepped back, and stopped posting for a while. I regained my composure, and my rationality – which might have been the worst thing to happen as far as interaction between Paizo and I go.
I come back, and looked at what happened in my absence... And all I can say is wow. Paizo staffers and affiliates making venomous and insulting posts and then justifying it with “If you find that insulting, then these aren't the boards for you.” Slick guys, reel slick. Way to lower that PR bar back down to human levels.
And that is when it hit me.
I am not supporting WotC for two basic reasons
- They are insulting their customer base. Even if I am not personally insulted, or if the entire customer base doesn't feel insulted.
- They are producing a product that I will never use.
Paizo, on the other hand:
- Are insulting their customer base. Even if I am not personally insulted, or if the entire customer base doesn't feel insulted.
- They are producing a product that, if I am truly honest with myself, I will probably never use.
So. There it is. Guys like Joshua Frost, and Steve Greer have “forced my hand.” I only see three options before me, and I am hoping the wise posters here can see another couple options.
- Be a hypocrite. This is something I loathe to be. Sure, I've been a hypocrite in my life, and probably will again. But not willingly.
- Buy 4th Edition, and other products just to justify continuing my Pathfinder subscriptions and all the other purchases I make from Paizo. Yeah. This will happen. Even if I had enough money to do this, this isn't a very likable option.
- Stop supporting Paizo. And I don't want to do that. Nicholas Logue, and Mike McArtor alone are reason to keep purchasing. But it is the option I am most willing to take.
So I look to the rest of you. What angles am I missing? Please tell me there is another path to take?
Realize that this is a private message board owned by Paizo, thus they have the right to do with it what they deem appropriate.
That said, I think we're all free to post exactly what we will as long as we keep an eye on the tone of our posts and the very few actual rules set up by Paizo (don't directly insult people, companies or other message boards).
Even with those "rules" in place it's still a very free environment to post in.
If one can't post without breaking those rules, then this really isn't the place to be (nor would one be welcome a lot of other places).
Arguing in a thoughtful and articulate way is so much more productive and hopefully conductive to others following the same lead.
Seriously Disenchanter, none of your rights have been infringed upon (this is a private owned message board) and most of us don't want you (or anyone else) to go anywhere! :-)
I don't know which posts you're referring to regarding "Paizo staffers and affiliates making venomous and insulting posts..."
As several Paizo employees have pointed out, they don't want to stifle discussion about 4e, neither pro nor anti, just the personal attacks in those posts.
I think that's a fair decision, since if you're insulting someone you're not really discussing the issue but the other person (and his/her choices, opinions etc.).
stuff stuff stuff
Dude, you need to start your own company!
Then, you can take over the market, and re-create the world in your image.
Show 'em how it should be done, my main man! Lead by Example.
Steve Greer isn't on the Paizo staff.
I regret that I have to step out in the next three minutes. I'd like to reply to this at length, right now, but I can't.
I would like to get a word in before the inevitable stampede.
Disenchanter... some of the basic premises you've made are perceptual, and not necessarily objective. You still have a lot of emotions flowing hot, and while you think you've stepped back and are seeing this clearly.. I disagree. You're still angry. You're not ready to come back and try again without self-sabotaging it.
You're still seeing this through the lens of your anger, through the lens of your own perceptions..
<sigh> I am being called away. Dammit.
Hope there is something still to talk about when I come back. You're a good guy, and worth having around.
Seeya later.
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I think I will stay 3.5 for a while. I make up all sorts of modified adventures. I'll buy 4.0 adventures from Paizo, and modify them back to 3.5. I'm doing 1e Sinister Secrets of Saltmarsh right now, and that's gotta be modified to 3.5, and then everybody's gonna be second level when they get to the house instead of 1st level, so hell with it; I gotta modify it some more.
I think Paizo comes up with really good stuff, but I usually gotta switch it around anyway because I'm a tinkerer. Not saying I make stuff better than them, just different. I usually have to work something around a lot to where it makes sense in my realm. So for me, anyway, buying from them is a good option.
I also really don't want to give WOTC money, but I like adventures. If I don't use an adventure entirely, I still steal this and that out of it.
I also think that somebody will say, "well, I'm too busy to make stuff up, that's why I buy an adventure in the first place." Hey, I get that too. I'm hoping that when 4e days hit Paizo, somebody'll be posting up 3.5 revamp stats or something that don't suck too bad.
WRT the new age of moderation (cue violins) I got a post deleted, but I'm not upset enough to head for the hills. I clammed up for a few days; I'm not in a very good mood right now for a lot of reasons, none of which have anything to do with this stuff, so I took some of Steve Greer's advice from long ago about "not posting when you are in a pissy mood," which I prolly could've done before I posted the post that got deleted.
I just figure they gotta do what they gotta do. They're busy with other stuff.
And they DID chill on Kruely with his Dead Horse avatar, so I think that they are still the reasonable guys they were a week ago.
Disenchanter, I too do not like what I’ve seen on the Paizo message boards the last few days. I’ve always valued these boards because of the free exchange of ideas and opinions that are expressed. If a person’s opinion is “WotC is a piece of %^&” that opinion is just as relevant as Barely Coherent’s essay on the hostility of the 4e message boards.
That being said, I hope you will continue to support Paizo; at least in the short term. Keep in mind that they are still producing 3.5 products and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. After Paizo makes their decision on which way to go you can decide whether or not you want to continue supporting them. That’s when I will make my decision.
At any rate, I hope you will continue to contribute to the boards. I do not always agree with your statements but a person can disagree with another’s opinion and still respect and value that person’s commentary.
My reason involves needing men to kill off the smrfs.
To be honest, if you found that the Paizo staff answers to you were insulting or venimous you should really think about staying far far away from this forum and from this company... This is not a place for you...
You are militing for freedom of Speech but at the same you seem unable to understand polite reply to your posts... I guess venimous or insulting posts are only OK when you are the one writting them and that you found venom and insults where you choose to see them... I have absolutly no respect for that.. and as your previous post title: you are really disapointing...
You are making all this situation completly ridiculous by posting again and again that your feelings have been hurt...
What do you want? Sympathy? Do you expect peoples following your example and stop supporting Paizo? Do you want a group hug?
You were a fine and intelligent poster until now but I just can't stand this kind of behavior, sorry...
My reason involves needing men to kill off the smrfs.
The Gnomes agree with you.
Disenchanter, perhaps you should have an email exchange with Paizo's people, so you can express your specific challenges with how they are conducting themselves on these messageboards. By getting everyone involved and taking sides, it's just going to get more flammatory.
I agree that they haven't been completely consistent as moderators, but they are human, make mistakes, and are dealing with a very difficult situation. It's hard not to get defensive. I think if you spoke to them privately, even over the phone, there is more likely to be resolution. And if there isn't, then you can still make your choice to stop supporting Paizo.
Guys like Joshua Frost, and Steve Greer have “forced my hand.”
D,
First of all, Stever Greer is not a Paizo employee, as already stated above.
Secondly, no one is forcing your hand, just like no one is forcing you to post here. It's completely your choice. Moderation (in the form of suppressed posts) over the last two days has been virtually non-existant. The forum is starting to get back to what it needs to be, in spite of a small contingent of posters who still feel that moderation is akin to physical violence.
I think that the best thing to do is for you to start a thread (or post in an existing thread) that has nothing to do with moderation or edition warz and see how you feel about that. Those subjects are apprently a sore spot for you now, so give them a break. If you still can't stomach seeing the Paiso golem after that, then maybe you should go. I however feel that you're blowing the way out of proportion. It's only a messageboard.
I hope that some of what I have posted helps you in your dilema.
RD
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Dude, I'd just give it a break for a couplea days, mull it over, don't go off all halfcocked or nothing. I'm not trying to be insulting; that's how I am and in such situations, I gotta back off until the steam pressure goes down.
I'm also reading a few posts on this thread that won't really help much with that strategy, so......water on a duck, man!
I must say that I don't really even understand what this thread is about. I don't "support" a company. A commercial company is not holding a flag that I should follow. Either it produces stuff that I want to buy or it doesn't.
A company doesn't have to be likeable to sell stuff. I suppose you don't buy things that you don't need just because the vendor is a nice guy.
Now, participation in a forum is something else. If I find that a forum is not enjoyable anymore, I'll leave it. "Help convince me to continue visiting this board" should have been a more logical title to this thread.
But "supporting"has, in my opinion, nothing to do with a commercial transaction. Except if you mean "do has I say or I'll keep my money and you'll go bankrupt...".
But then, whatever decision Paizo takes on the edition they shall choose, the die-hards from the other side are going to leave.
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Really - I don't get it. As far as I see, and although I did not follow the discussion in the 4th. ed. Forums, because I found (PERSONAL OPINION!) the lack of arguments combined with the overabundance of argumentation boring, I did follow the various posts (including yours) discussing the moderation of those forums. As far as I can see it, the reason for deleting osts were not the opinions of the posters but the way these opinions were brought forth. The moderators may have deleted posts that weren't so bad - but they already agreed to that by writing that they were doing a cleanup that was probably more intense then the moderation will be from then on (urgh - that sounded strange, sorry, this is not my native language...). The fact that, after all, they did'nt delete any (?) posts the last few days supports this.
You can have any opinion you want on these boards - and you can state it, as long as you do it in a way that can be called a discussion and not a foul mouthed yikyak. Sorry to say, but if you insult the owners / workers in a supermarket or resstaurant you will robably get thrown out - like it or not.
Sorry to end this post now - more or less in the middle of a thought, but I'm off for the evening - so if I will not answer / discuss with you the next few hours it is not meant as an insult
Just take a break.
I don't post in the 4e thread because I've seen enough of the 4e stuff to have reached a conclusion. First impression is that it does not feel like DnD. But this is my impression (please don't respond to it).
The whole 4e is just a rehash of a rehash nowadays. People are still mad but they want to know if Paizo will go 4e. Paizo can't tell because it still hasn't got the GSL.
So we wait.
When the news finally breaks, I'll visit the 4e thread again.
I really wish I could see what your seeing.
I couldn't find any "venomous and insulting posts" in the thread. The most aggressive post was your first one eg "I can't stomach the hatred and loathing I feel every time I go to click on the Paizo link." and "I can never, never, never express just how angry I am now. Written words will never convey it."
All paizo are doing is trying to make the 4th edition forums a better place to visit, where people can post opinions without being shouted down or insulted by other posters. The 4th edition forum is such a small portion of the overall forums and is the only one in need of moderation.
Can we rename the 4e boards "Drama" and move this thread there?
Ok I'm confused. If you're not insulted and the rest of us aren't insulted, then who exactly are they insulting??!!
Paizo, on the other hand:
- Are insulting their customer base. Even if I am not personally insulted, or if the entire customer base doesn't feel insulted.
Smurfs, of course!
Josh Frost works here? Huh.
Ohhhh! Slaaammm!
You sound convinced to go your own way, to me. So why should we convince you otherwise if it's going to be such torture to stick around where you're so routinely and flagrantly disrespected? Stay, go or go for a while and come back when we've risen to your level.
I'm not wanting to reopen old wounds, but I do need to summarize what happened to give enough background to my point...<snip>
(1) Did I miss something? Did Paizo announce it is going to 4E? Not sure why you suddenly can't/won't use Paizo's products...
(2) I don't know who from Paizo has been insulting...perhaps you could provide a link? Personally I haven't seen it. Mona sometimes come across as arrogant, but can you really blame him? He is constantly being second-guessed by armchair businessmen (like...say...me :P). I'm sure I'd do worse in his shoes.
Overall I'm baffled by the big deal being made of this situation. Paizo asked visitors to behave in a civil fashion, some of whom then decided they were being opressed and were victims of "censorship." The sad part is, the vast, vast majority of folks here (myself included) don't know the first thing about opression or hardship. Frankly, the hyperbole is disrespectful to people who have actually lived through these things, and is really quite distastful.
Disenchanter, I've always enjoyed your posts and I think we've always got on well whenever we've had some discourse on any given thread.
For anyone that can't figure out why Disenchanter has included me on his s**t list, you can see why on this thread.
I still maintain that you and the others that have voiced similar opinions about recent moderation and policies being enforced on these boards are overreacting. I put it pretty harshly on that other thread, which I really should have refrained from doing and I feel bad about in retrospect, but that's basically how I feel about the way you've been going about things. It's my opinion, just another poster on these boards (NOT a Paizo employee even though I freelance for them). It should have absolutely no bearing on whether you continue to support Paizo or not. If you want it to be, then so be it. You're going to do what you want to do. But, I sincerely hope you don't exclude yourself from this great community and sticking with Paizo just because you're mad as hell at me.
You're a great guy to have on these boards and it would be a shame to see you go because you and I spoke our minds in the heat of the moment or because of an initial knee jerk reaction to a perceived threat (the moderation).
Cool off and then come back.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that I would have addressed what you posted above about your options and concerns, but I get the feeling you wouldn't really want to hear what I have to say about it, so I'll let others tackle that topic.
Bugleyman and James Keegan said what I wanted to say. Let me add that as a newcomer to these boards, the level of drama has baffled me. I have a WoW background, and I'm familiar with the guild theatrics, but I never imagined it could be like this in a message board.
It seems to me that Paizo is trying to enforce the rule "if you can't keep it civil, don't post." Nothing seems more reasonable. If for whatever reason this rule or anything else on these boards fills you with hatred, loathing and whatnot (as you stated in the "I'm sorely disappointed" thread), you really should take a hard look at your own reactions.
D&D is a game. Paizo is a games company. The boards are filled with people who want to talk about games. Noone is out to get you.
Keep it fun. Chill out. Get some fresh air. Get laid. Slaughter a smurf.
Creative Director
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Whether or not you continue to support us, Disenchanter, is of course your own decision. Personally, I hope that you remain a customer. Paizo's a small company, and as a result no one here is foolish enough to seek out customers to insult them. That doesn't mean that insults don't happen of course, especially since mesasgeboards and email are notorious for changing the context of what's written and what's intended. If someone IS insulted by something Paizo does... it's a mistake on Paizo's part and we'll do what we can to fix it.
Please, just keep in mind that we've got a lot of other things going on as well. For Example: Pathinfder's on a monthly schedule, and when we started up, we were also doing ANOTHER monthly schedule as well; Dragon & Dungeon. On top of that, this transition occurred during the busiest time of the year for us: Convention Season, where we lose weeks at a time from our regular job preparing for, attending, and frankly RECOVERING from the conventions. As a result, production for Pathfinder fell about a month behind. Pathfinder customers certainly remember how long it took Pathfinder 2 and 3 to get out, and that's the reason.
Now, being a month behind is pretty bad news. You basically have to do twice the amount of work and produce TWO Pathfinders in a month to catch up, and since it already pretty much takes a month to do ONE, well, the only way to catch up is to work extra hours. I'm about to head into work right now to get some development & editing in on Pathfinder #10, which will mark (if I remember right) the 21st day in a row of 8 hours or more spent at work. That doesn't make for a very relaxing time. (Especially if you wake up, like I did today, with a sore throat and a cough...)
Anyway, I'm giving my own schedule as an example to show, hopefully, that things are pretty insane at Paizo right now. Everyone's working really hard, and issues like the delay with the GSL or discord on our messageboards only add to that stress load. If anyone from Paizo posted something that was inadvertently insulting, I'm saying, there's plenty of reasons WHY an insulting post could happen. Again... if it DOES... it's an error. I apologize for any insulting posts I may have made (and I'm sure I've made my share, and will do so again).
When we lost the license to produce the D&D magazines, our boards got pretty caustic for a while there too. Eventually, though, things settled down and became friendly again. They'll settle down after the current uproar as well, I guarantee. (I hope, at least!)
Anyway, to bring a long-winded post to a close, let me just echo the statements by several others who have posted here. Take a break from the boards, if only for a week, or even a few days. Vacations can be very rejuvenating (or so I hear)!
Alternately, if anyone has any concerns with posts or problems with Paizo, our emails are always open. Send us a message; I don't put my own email on page 5 of every Pathfinder for nothing! (It's james.jacobs@paizo.com if you don't buy Pathfinder, by the way.) If something's particularly vexing to anyone, shoot me an email. I can't promise I'll answer it immediately (I sleep sometimes, after all), but hopefully I'll be able to address specific issues or provide as detailed an explanation as I can.
Disenchanter!
Stick around my man! I really enjoy your posts, and like rapping with you! My advice: Treat the 4E boards as if they didn't exist for awhile (that's what I've been doing), it really makes this community as pleasant a place to be as it always has been (at least for me).
I also agree with James that as soon as the edition madness is dealt with, things will return to wonderfulness en totality around here (they did after the Dragon/Dungeon death for the most part).
So yeah, don't go! I'd miss ya! I'm sure lots of other folks would too! :-)
Nick
You're the disenchanter... don't be the disenchantee. Stick around and watch as those embroiled in the most heated arguments give in to an after hours orgy of hot poster on poster conversation.
3.5, 4, 666? Those are just numbers. Add them together and you get 670.5. See what I mean? Useless.
I put it pretty harshly on that other thread, which I really should have refrained from doing and I feel bad about in retrospect, but that's basically how I feel about the way you've been going about things.
You're a harsh guy, dude.
And you write great adventures.
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Disenchanter - my one word of advice is - Chill! I've had an entire slew of posts deleted (do the initials V.G. ring any bells?), but I'm not going anywhere. This is a bad spot, but this place is almost like some weird, dysfunctional, creepy family. All families have problems, and I think most usually get through them. So will we here at the Paizo boards.
Stick around, bro'. You don't need to approve of everything these guys do to hang out here and you don't have to buy their whole line. If you do pick something up for an edition you are not using, there will be a lot of people posting conversations no matter which way Paizo goes.
please stick around disenchanter. i haven't had this much fun reading a message board since a silent wail railed against d02 on rpg.net
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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You're the disenchanter... don't be the disenchantee. Stick around and watch as those embroiled in the most heated arguments give in to an after hours orgy of hot poster on poster conversation.
3.5, 4, 666? Those are just numbers. Add them together and you get 670.5. See what I mean? Useless.
Not to be argumentative but when I add them together I get 673.5. Damn, that car must have hit me harder than I thought.
Not to be argumentative but when I add them together I get 673.5. Damn, that car must have hit me harder than I thought.You're the disenchanter... don't be the disenchantee. Stick around and watch as those embroiled in the most heated arguments give in to an after hours orgy of hot poster on poster conversation.
3.5, 4, 666? Those are just numbers. Add them together and you get 670.5. See what I mean? Useless.
I was wondering if getting the math deliberately wrong would add to the humor of my numbers are useless theme or if its vagueness would cause me to look simple.
DARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! I have my answer! ;) lol
I like how some people look at my posts, and I have to guess they don't even read it, and automatically assume I am rallying against the new policy.
I have re read my post, and see nothing in it about the policy. In fact, even when I lost my temper, except at the very beginning of the post and later to clarify again how I wasn't against the policy, I never even mentioned the damn policy.
And some wonder why I claim people read too much into the posts, um former posts, of the 4th Edition forums.
Watcher, I respect you - a lot. But I do not have my emotions running on high anymore. Yes, I get over things that fast. The Fire Giant is a perfect avatar for me.
I am well aware that Steve Greer isn't an employee. That is why I stated "staffers and affiliates." Now, maybe affiliate isn't quite correct, but it was used to refer to Mr. Greer.
Ok I'm confused. If you're not insulted and the rest of us aren't insulted, then who exactly are they insulting??!!
There were at least a couple who felt insulted and claimed they were leaving. If we assume they weren't lying, then they would no longer be around to voice being insulted. Besides, it is a matter of principles. I know those things are rare, but I stand to defend them, even if I am unaffected.
Secondly, no one is forcing your hand, just like no one is forcing you to post here.
That is why I put the phrase in quotes. No, they didn't force anything. But they have put me in a somewhat unpleasant situation that if asked why I don't give WotC any more money (or support) and I end up listing the same things Paizo has done - where does that put me?
Can we rename the 4e boards "Drama" and move this thread there?
You sound convinced to go your own way, to me. So why should we convince you otherwise if it's going to be such torture to stick around where you're so routinely and flagrantly disrespected? Stay, go or go for a while and come back when we've risen to your level.
And here I was told that only the 4th Edition forums were unfriendly. Real sweet.
Disenchanter, I've always enjoyed your posts and I think we've always got on well whenever we've had some discourse on any given thread.
It isn't about how we get along. I am too thick skinned to be hurt by your post. After all, I liked the way the 4th Edition forums were. As I said a little earlier, it is about principles and hypocrisy.
it's a mistake on Paizo's part and we'll do what we can to fix it.
And that is the ray of light I was looking for. Well that, and Nick Logue taking time to post. But that is what seperates you from "that other company."
Can we rename the 4e boards "Drama" and move this thread there?And here I was told that only the 4th Edition forums were unfriendly. Real sweet.
I meant no insult, nor was I being facetious. This thread exists as a direct result of the ongoing 4e shitstorm, and it'd be nice if I lived in a magical happy land where I could, from time to time, plug my ears and pretend that people weren't having a civil war over an edition shift.
Okay.. I will refrain from describing how you feel Disenchanter, if you say you're okay now... I believe you. :)
However, like somebody else said, I just don't see all the behaviors you've pointed out. Or I don't understand how you're applying them to your situation.
I am going to skip the comments made about WOTC. I understand your reasons for the comparison to WOTC and Paizo, but really, right now this community can only speak to itself. So I'm only talking about Paizo.
Are insulting their customer base. Even if I am not personally insulted, or if the entire customer base doesn't feel insulted.
Okay, this is where I take you at your word that this is no longer about YOU, but how about how a select few have been treated.
I grant you that some of the initial admonishments to post in a civilized manner were firm. Nevertheless, I don't think those initial admonishments were hateful, or directed at specific individuals.
And there was a LOT of push back, just for making that request. Not by 95% of the people, but a select small group who came across, by me, as feeling really entitled and wanted to nitpick at the situation.
Therein lies part of the problem. Paizo, and the contingent of posters who come across as supporting them, want to deal with this in a general manner.
A few other posters want to break this down to specific posts, and from them, arrive at a comprehensive detailed discussion of acceptable behavior- where everything that has ever gone on before on both sides brought back up, analyzed and then reconciled to everyone's satisfaction.
Disenchanter, man.. to paraphrase a good line from Minority Report, "Sometimes when you go digging up the past, all you get is dirty."
What Paizo has tried to ask for is a reasonable standard of acceptable and polite behavior. They don't want to try to define that, because once you define that standard in detail, it opens the door to legalistic thinking filled with loopholes and catches. People start to play games. Instead they hope that each indvidual will define it for themselves as reasonable adults. Here's a silly but hopefully poignant example: I've never been told that it's not alright to unzip my pants and just pee on the floor when I'm a guest in someone's home. I always reckoned that we should all just know better. :D Granted that is an extreme example, but nevertheless asking someone to be polite shouldn't be all that complicated.
There is one angry poster who often points out how they are the subject of passive agressive comments that, while they do not name them specifically, are offensive. This poster points out that Paizo never enforces their standard of behavior against the comments that bother them. This same poster never takes into consideration that their own posts, while lacking direct insults to others, are blunt, abrasive, and usually contribute nothing other than the fact that they don't like 4th Edition. If they read this, they might be tempted to argue with me, "What?! What do you mean? I can't be blunt and to the point that I don't like 4th Edition? I don't have the right to post anything I want so long as I don't insult anyone? Now you want me to kiss your a$$ too?"
I see their point to a degree, but the thing is... they would stubbornly refuse to accept that any responsiblity in adhering to a reasonable standard of behavior. That's because they're adhering to the letter of the law.
And adhering to the letter of the law isn't quite cutting it. That isn't what is being asked for. One needs must adhere to the spirit of the law. The more respect you give, the more you get it back.
Steve Greer and Joshua Frost, for example, strikes me as men who identitifed that reasonable standard of behavior for themselves. In different ways, their patience has been tested by people who want to play games about what are the limits. Whereas they see the boundries quite clearly, they are puzzled why some others can't. And after awhile, they've become frustrated by the feeling these people do understand and are only testing the limits. I'm not saying these posters are like little kids, but it's a thing *I* see little kids doing, and it's pretty frustrating.
And in Steve's case, I'm pretty sure he's sorry he lost his temper. That doesn't mean that there was no reason for him not to be frustrated about something. Perhaps it was just a bit misdirected, or intense. Plus, it's difficult to apologize when you're partially right. I hope this doesn't make you mad at me, but I understood where he was coming from.
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I'm not sure where you're coming from in terms of (you) being afraid of being a hypocrite.
When all is said and done, we can only talk about you here. The community is reaching out to you. Both posters and Paizo Staff.
These other people (Cory Stafford 29, Razz, The Real Troll..?), they have to make this journey on their own. It's great that you want to fight for principals, but these fellows have to stand or fall on their own merits, and come to terms with this in their own way.
How can you continue to support Paizo? Maybe you need to see your relationship to Paizo as unique to just you?
It's awesome that you stuck your neck out for others, but I think you've done all you can.
Watcher man, eloquent as always.
But I think you are reading too much into my posts. Aside from this thread stemming from that unpleasantness, it had nothing to do with that unpleasantness.
This thread came about because I realized that Paizo had fallen upon the same situation that I was faulting WotC for. Thats it.
Now, I get the impression that people are assuming I am using this towards an agenda. And, sadly, I can see how it can be taken as such. But that can only be done if one "reads into," or "projects their expectations onto," my posts. Taken at its face value, this thread shouldn't be able to be taken that way.
And that is a pity, because that is the "guilty until proven innocent" kind of reaction I was fearing from the announced policy change. But now I am straying off topic.
Just take a break.
I don't post in the 4e thread because I've seen enough of the 4e stuff to have reached a conclusion. First impression is that it does not feel like DnD. But this is my impression (please don't respond to it).
Same for me, there have been couple of threads there I have posted to but mostly I don't even read those threads. That part of the messageboard appears to be chaotic evil, tainting the sould of everyone who ever gaze there (good luck for Lisa and other paladins in Abyss).
I have made me initial decision about 4E, and will reconsider it AFTER that thing comes out.
Watcher man, eloquent as always.
But I think you are reading too much into my posts. Aside from this thread stemming from that unpleasantness, it had nothing to do with that unpleasantness.
This thread came about because I realized that Paizo had fallen upon the same situation that I was faulting WotC for. Thats it.
Now, I get the impression that people are assuming I am using this towards an agenda. And, sadly, I can see how it can be taken as such. But that can only be done if one "reads into," or "projects their expectations onto," my posts. Taken at its face value, this thread shouldn't be able to be taken that way.
And that is a pity, because that is the "guilty until proven innocent" kind of reaction I was fearing from the announced policy change. But now I am straying off topic.
Fair enough.
I guess I don't understand, and therefore I can't really respond.
I sat and thought about a possible different interpretations of what you could mean, but at the core of it, I really don't know what WOTC does that you're concerned that Paizo might start doing.
Specifically I don't see Paizo insulting anybody. I really don't see them trying to skew or shut down any dialogue about 4th Edition. I do see those accusations being made, but they seem fairly baseless and unfounded to me.
::shrug::
But there I go again. I don't understand what you're trying to say.
I'll step back until I do understand.
Alright. Let me try and explain it to you then.
Right or wrong, agree or disagree, I hold that WotC has been insulting to their customer base with their marketing scheme to date. To be fair, I am not claiming it is intentional.
Right or wrong, agree or disagree, I found some statements made by Paizo, and a freelancer, to be insulting to their customer base. And again, I am not claiming it was intentional.
So... If I can't bring myself to support WotC for that, how am I supposed to support Paizo? (To be clear, James Jacobs gave me the reason.)
It would have been hypocritical of me to say "I won't give WotC money, and yet I'll keep giving Paizo money" when they did essentially the same thing. Well, to different degrees.
Now, I am not asking if you agree with me, but does that explain my position?
Now, I am not asking if you agree with me, but does that explain my position?
Yes it does.
I guess it didn't stand out to me because they were very different types of communication from the two companies.
WOTC, I would concede, was rather patronizing and condescending in how they attempted to promote their their product. They also directed this to an entire generation of gamers. (Maybe you're speaking to the conduct of the message boards, to which I can't attest, other than heresay that says they're absent landlords.)
With Paizo, you have one staff person and one freelancer, who spoke to a few individuals. They were both blunt, and one should have chosen his words more carefully. This sparked others to become involved, and it escalated.
Alright. Let me try and explain it to you then.
Right or wrong, agree or disagree, I hold that WotC has been insulting to their customer base with their marketing scheme to date. To be fair, I am not claiming it is intentional.
Right or wrong, agree or disagree, I found some statements made by Paizo, and a freelancer, to be insulting to their customer base. And again, I am not claiming it was intentional.
So... If I can't bring myself to support WotC for that, how am I supposed to support Paizo? (To be clear, James Jacobs gave me the reason.)
It would have been hypocritical of me to say "I won't give WotC money, and yet I'll keep giving Paizo money" when they did essentially the same thing. Well, to different degrees.
Now, I am not asking if you agree with me, but does that explain my position?
That is a good explanation and summary. Thank you.
And the answer to your original question would have been that unless you want to be hypocritical you can't continue supporting them.
I'm very glad to see that James posted what he did and brought that ray of sunshine you mentioned. That is what sets the companies apart. All the posters in the world could have said that this is the difference, but without James actually posting that on his own, our opinions wouldn't mean anything. We are not the company, but he is...well, he is one of the faces of the company, like it or not.
So, agree with you or not...your summary explained it well. To me, anyway. And that's why I lurk here. Because you, and posters like you, are willing to take the time and have the level of..."humanity" for lack of a better word...have the level of humanity to post well though out lines of reasoning and create discussions that we can all read and participate in if we choose to do so.
And before James posted what he did, that was what I was going to say to you. I would have said, please do not depart from here, whether you support the company or not, because you would be silencing your voice. In effect, you'd be moderating yourself right out of here...and wouldn't that be the biggest hypocrisy of all?
Perhaps the amount of posts here is just testimony to how many decent folks there are here at Paizo. Disenchanter, please stay.
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Alright. Let me try and explain it to you then.
Right or wrong, agree or disagree, I hold that WotC has been insulting to their customer base with their marketing scheme to date. To be fair, I am not claiming it is intentional.
Right or wrong, agree or disagree, I found some statements made by Paizo, and a freelancer, to be insulting to their customer base. And again, I am not claiming it was intentional.
So... If I can't bring myself to support WotC for that, how am I supposed to support Paizo? (To be clear, James Jacobs gave me the reason.)
It would have been hypocritical of me to say "I won't give WotC money, and yet I'll keep giving Paizo money" when they did essentially the same thing. Well, to different degrees.
Now, I am not asking if you agree with me, but does that explain my position?
I think you and I may sometimes think alike in many regards. I have principles and I hate hypocrosy with a passion. But there are a few things I have learned over the years.
No one can offend you , unless you allow them to offend you.
No one can insult you, unless you allow them to insult you.
And forgiveness can be a cleansing thing. Forgiveness s not for the one who has offended you, but it is for yourself. It is the understanding that everyone wants to do the right thing, but no one agrees on what it is and how to do it. It is the realization that we all make mistakes and feel the same pain as every one else. It is the knowledge that everyone is the offender and everyone has been offended. And in that frame of mind, you can forgive anyone, and yourself.
I am not going to beg you to stay, simply because you do not know me. But am going to ask you to look inside yourself and do what you feel is the right thing. I do not believe that anyone wants to intentionally offend you, but it happens whether we want to or not.
Listen to your heart and do what you feel is right. It takes a real man to do that.
No one can offend you , unless you allow them to offend you.
No one can insult you, unless you allow them to insult you.
Those are both very true. In fact I tried to use them to defend the 4th Edition forum from those that claimed it was a vile place that should be erased from the boards.
And I thank you (and others that asked me to stay) for your words. But this thread wasn't meant to draw sympathy, or even empathy. I was looking for the key to allow me to continue supporting Paizo in spite of the figurative corner I had backed myself into.
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Hey :) Please don't accuse me of sympathy :) Them's fighting words! lol
All I wanted to do was offer some words to reflect on, and I think I can speak for everyone that regardless of whether you want to support a company or not, we'd like you to stay in the community.
BTW, now that I think of it, I find the idea of "supporting" a company to be just wrong. I try not to make judgement calls about the internal workings of a company unless I work for them and have first hand knowledge. But I buy from companies based upon one thing: Do I like that particular product.
I buy Paizo products, not because I want to support them, or whatever, but because I like their products. Many of their products I will never actually "use," but I enjoy reading them anyway. Now, that said, should Paizo ever just start putting out crap just to have stuff on the shelves, I can guarantee I won't buy their products.
I buy the Pathfinder books because I enjoy reading them. I have two Gamemastery modules because those two have appealed to me. But only those two. I have not bought any Planet Stories yet, simply because my wallet won't support it. Yet. Honestly I have toyed with changing my subscription from Pathfinder to Planet Stories so many times. Someday I might, but I would prefer to just add Planet Stories, because regardless of whether it is Paizo or someone else, that is some good literature there.
Now I won't go speaking for James here, but while one person leaving "the fold" might not break the company, I have the feeling he and most everyone at Paizo would feel bad if the reason for the leaving is because of something they said or did. That is just my impression, because I honestly feel that the people at Paizo are good people who just want to make the best products they can, enjoy the gaming life, and enjoy the company of other gamers.
Just don't call me sympathetic again :) them's fighting words :)