This thread is beginning to make me physically ill.While I'm on this thread I want to say again, as others have done, let's all ease up on the acrimony - for E.E.G.
I know I'm going to.
Aaaah.
Come on everyone, Group Hug.
;)
I wuv you all.
This thread is beginning to make me physically ill.
Speaking of ill,where's whats his name...
I wuv you all.
Hey, that's my poop! It's talkin'!
Speaking of ill,where's whats his name...
"Master" is here.
Know that I am pleased that you've come to realize how wasteful this enveavor is.
Hey, that's my poop! It's talkin'!
I wuv you all.
This is lighthearted humor!See CWM 4e is gonna be Kewl and Hawt like Gauntlet was back in 89...;)
So, if we want to discuss 4E on the Paizo 4E boards ... go somewhere else?Ditto!my smartass thoughts say if you want to disucss 4e go to enworld or WOTC boards.....
I know - basically anyone that wants to play 4E should leave the Paizo boards.
That ensures that the Paizo staff hear only those voices that want them to stick with 3.5.
Come on.
You're saying that people want you to go away because of your opinion.
Well, in a way, you're right: We think that with your opinion you'd be better off somewhere else.
But the opinion we're talking about isn't that you like 4e.
The opinion is that you think that those who think 4e sucks should shut up.
Well, we won't. It's our opinion. It's a free message board. We keep saying that we don't like the stuff we hear about it.
And we don't tell you to go because we want you gone.
We tell you to go because we think you'd like it better over there.
Because those aren't free message boards. They ban people if they do the stuff you dislike. So over there you could do the stuff you want to do here: Discuss the edition without anyone debating it.
Of course, we have no problem with your staying here, but you must accept that people are allowed to state their opinion here.
Actually, it's funny: You tell people to shut up, and then act all indignant when someone does it to you.
I want to hear both the positive and negative things about the game.
Then I take it all back: Stay away from wizards two sites. They don't allow negative things to be said about the game.
Not negative posts about WotC employees.
Haven't posted any of these I can remember. Haven't seen many of them, either.
And I'm quite sure that the majority of those who don't like 4e and aren't afraid to say so isn't insulting them.
So just because a couple of people might have done it doesn't mean that we all should shut up about our opinion.
Not insults hurled at those that may choose to play 4E.
Now, I haven't seen anything like that. I've seen a lot of that in wizards' own remarks. How they get rid of power attack because apparently they think their customers are too stupid for simple calculations.
Let's talk about the game and not each other.
Good. Most of the stuff I've read about 4e sucks. I'm not such a fan of statistics, but I dont' think the stuff we don't know about yet is going to be any different, and I get that opinion by extrapolating from what I do know. If some things were bad, it might be a coincidence that they picked some of the worse things to show us, but with this overwhelming majority, I can't believe it. I really doubt that they managed to create a nearly perfect game, but that they managed to get all the negative stuff in the previews.
Want me to shut up now?
Hey man, what am I, chopped liver? Who started that thread?;-)
Just messin' with you man...
You sir, are at least prime rib (Angus), at minimum. :D
If your posts came across as lighthearted then I would not have a problem but if it walks like a troll, posts like a troll, and smells like a troll ...
Does this post constitute irony, or is their a better word?
Does this post constitute irony, or is their a better word?
Maybe not. CWM is tenacious as a barnacle. He doesn't give up. But I don't recall him ever actually disrespecting anyone, or calling them a names.
And if I'm wrong, and he has done that.. then I'll shut up and let him take his punches.
But we need people on both sides of this debate. It's important to the process, whatever side you belong to.
Does this post constitute irony, or is their a better word?
Maybe not. CWM is tenacious as a barnacle. He doesn't give up. But I don't recall him ever actually disrespecting anyone, or calling them a names.
Except troll :)
Except troll :)
Then he was wrong for that. :)
...If you can't function around the forum blowhards, you pretty much can't function in cyberspace as only the most vehemently moderated fora are consistently civil. And those often end up with a definite bias, though not always.
For the record, I've usually found the Paizo boards to be a cut above most others. There's disagreement, but it's usually respectful. Outright, intransigent trolls are few and far between.
Of course, a lot of the 4/e discussion has tarnished that record, but I think this is still a pretty good community -- by and large.
I'm used to some lower frequency boards, myself - ones in which you start to feel like you all know each other. We disagree, but there's _no_ trolls.
I feel all unprotected against the nasty cyberspace. ;)
I was talking to a friend about why he doesn't want to play 4E, and he actually admitted that 4E sounded like a much better game than 3.x to him... but he refused to support WotC. You know, I don't agree with that but I can much more respect that decision. Like CWM, I'd just like people to refrain from proverbial poo flinging on anything 4E that happens along :)
Maybe not. CWM is tenacious as a barnacle. He doesn't give up. But I don't recall him ever actually disrespecting anyone, or calling them a names.
Actually, he has called people out for being irrational while on other threads posting stuff that was patently insensible. Now that was when he first came onto the thread, but hypocrisy really sticks in my craw. Added to this are the posts where he has been ambiguous or made generalisms that marginalize other posters and then proceeded to blame consequent misunderstandings on other posters.
This seems to me to be disrespectful, so I don't really get upset when someone gets offended and goes ad hominem on him.
Actually, he has called people out for being irrational while on other threads posting stuff that was patently insensible. Now that was when he first came onto the thread, but hypocrisy really sticks in my craw. Added to this are the posts where he has been ambiguous or made generalisms that marginalize other posters and then proceeded to blame consequent misunderstandings on other posters.This seems to me to be disrespectful, so I don't really get upset when someone gets offended and goes ad hominem on him.
Hmmm..
Okay, I guess I missed that.
I'll step back and let him stand on his own.
Actually, he has called people out for being irrational while on other threads posting stuff that was patently insensible. Now that was when he first came onto the thread, but hypocrisy really sticks in my craw.
If you're going to go around slinging accusations, you really ought to be specific enough that other people can check and decide for themselves. Attacking someone while being vague enough that you can't be fact-checked is a pretty sleazy move.
When Can We Stop the Debate?
Respectfully, when we come to terms with WOTC not being all bad or all good. When we can tolerate ambivalence. When we stop splitting, and seeing things as black and white, one side against another. When anger gets assertively expressed at the right time, the right person and for the right reason (not, with few exceptions, fellow message board posters). When we express sadness at what we might be loosing, instead of misdirected hostility at our peers.
Probably when the 4E books have been out for a while, when Paizo makes its decsion and is happy to discover that people love their adventures and their world regardless of what mechanics they use. When we get down to playing again.
Entering these threads are not without risk, but I couldn't resist that kind of introspective question.
Cheers
If you're going to go around slinging accusations, you really ought to be specific enough that other people can check and decide for themselves. Attacking someone while being vague enough that you can't be fact-checked is a pretty sleazy move.
Look dude, I had it out with CWM when he first came in here and it's over. The threads are still there. You could look at his arguments against power attack, where he argued that 3.5 was broken and I won't even touch the stuff he said that was rather pompous in tone. Added to this is that he goes around stirring up people who are distraught about what is happening to their game. He came into this place shooting.
Whatever.
On another thread I buried the hatchet with CWM and I have nothing against him. He's said a lot of sensible things that I agree with, and I've admitted that.
If you want to get all huffy with me that's fine. If something stinks I say so - I'm not slinging accusations. Go find out for yourself in the archives - I couldn't be bothered to find stuff you missed. Hire a researcher or ask someone else that has a few more posts than you. Also, I have never presumed to decide anything for anyone on these threads. You "decide for [yourself]" all you want, buddy. That includes doing your own research. After all, why would an argument that I have cherry picked be any better than just telling you what I think?
(ED: This was also posted, more or less, elsewhere)
And as an afterthought, because he deserves it:
I swore I would stop reading CWM's posts long ago but alas, I haven't, and he's actually been really cool about everything lately as far as I'm concerned. Not that this matters to any of you.
Heck, I imagine he'll be coming in here sooner or later and he can defend himself.
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Going on this tangent of talking about CWM.....
When I started coming here quite a bit (I'm hardly a fixture, I just like to read a lot of the posts), CWM bugged me. A lot. I won't go into why, I'll just say he did. But as time went by, I found out more about him, and have found him to be intelligent and quite calm in his opinion. Recently, he even started a petition to return Greyhawk into 4e in the honour of EGG, and that earned him more of my respect than I thought possible. Same with others like Watcher, Heathansson (sic) and others. SO I hope he keeps posting, if for no other reason but to keep us 3.5-philiacs in line.
Do I really want to know what an "astral diamond" is?
New avatar huh Kruelaid I thought it was a smiling mouse at first lol
Do I really want to know what an "astral diamond" is?
You know in some way!
It's like a diamond, but full of as... it's from another plane.
Hey man, what am I, chopped liver? Who started that thread?;-)
Just messin' with you man...
Yah, I wouldn't have even known Watcher was walking if I hadn't read Moth's post.
Speaking of ill,where's whats his name...This thread is beginning to make me physically ill.
His absence is uncharacteristically long. Let's talk about him some more.
Recently, he even started a petition to return Greyhawk into 4e in the honour of EGG, and that earned him more of my respect than I thought possible.
I'd say that the biggest honour for Gary would be to keep GH out of 4e, so my estimation of CWM just sank through the floor! :P
I'm used to some lower frequency boards, myself - ones in which you start to feel like you all know each other. We disagree, but there's _no_ trolls.
I feel all unprotected against the nasty cyberspace. ;)
I was talking to a friend about why he doesn't want to play 4E, and he actually admitted that 4E sounded like a much better game than 3.x to him... but he refused to support WotC. You know, I don't agree with that but I can much more respect that decision.
What about those who say that they won't support wotc any more AND think almost everything we hear about 4e stinks?
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I would be all about having a petition to revive Greyhawk, but I don't think it's best to do so in Gary's honor. Here are the reasons why: 1)Look at what they did to the Forgotten Realms. Do you really want them to do something similar to Greyhawk? Gary would be livid about this if he knew about it. 2) Some things about the setting (Vancian magic in particular) are too ingrained into the setting to alter without messing the whole thing up. 3)The 4E fluff changes don't fit well into Greyhawk. Most of the lore and mythology that has been obliterated for 4E came from Greyhawk. If they aren't willing to put it back in Greyhawk, they shouldn't even attempt it. 4)Gary didn't think too highly of 3.0 or 3.5, so he'd probably despise 4.0, and would want to keep his beloved campaign setting far from it.
If they actually wanted to do a true revival of Greyhawk that showed respect for the history and flavor of the setting, it might not be bad to do so in Gary's honor. Unfortunately, that's not the way WotC works, so it would be better if they not only left Greyhawk alone, but removed any reference to Greyhawk personalites, deities, or locations from 4E.
...If they actually wanted to do a true revival of Greyhawk that showed respect for the history and flavor of the setting, it might not be bad to do so in Gary's honor. Unfortunately, that's not the way WotC works, so it would be better if they not only left Greyhawk alone, but removed any reference to Greyhawk personalites, deities, or locations from 4E.
Much as I'd like to see meaningful, official support for GH, I've got to agree.
WotC has been whacking away a bit too eagerly at D&D. Sure, that tree was a bit overgrown and needed some trimming. There was room for improvement, but I no longer think WotC was trying to improve the game -- only change it.
I think they've lost any interest in where D&D has come from -- they want a new game played a new way for a new batch of gamers.
IMHO :)
Actually, he has called people out for being irrational while on other threads posting stuff that was patently insensible. Now that was when he first came onto the thread, but hypocrisy really sticks in my craw. Added to this are the posts where he has been ambiguous or made generalisms that marginalize other posters and then proceeded to blame consequent misunderstandings on other posters... This seems to me to be disrespectful, so I don't really get upset when someone gets offended and goes ad hominem on him.
I thought of the word hypocrisy, too -- but a hypocrite knows he/she is wrong. I don't think that's the case here.
And while his manners have improved dramatically (as you said), there's the inevitable slip into antagonism and intransigence (my word of the week -- and intransigence hasn't been the exception, it's been the rule).
I've gotten into the fairly unpleasant and depressing habit of checking his recent posts. Invariably, over half of them are corrections, criticisms, and arguments of one form or another. His raison d'être on these boards seems to be confrontation.
To be fair, you are absolutely right -- he makes quite a few good points.
Just once, I'd like to see an apology for his behavior and/or comments:
But I doubt that'll happen.
Regards :)
That said, it sure is ironic that he is the OP on this thread.
I think they've lost any interest in where D&D has come from -- they want a new game played a new way for a new batch of gamers.
...for a new batch of gamers.... And for old gamers who are ready for real changes... IMHO!
[Disclaimer: The following is not direct at you Tatterdemalion but is my answer to the thread]:
... And for Gamers who would really like to be able to discuss 4E game mechanics without being threat as retarded or insulted by people who have already made their mind about the new edition...
The point of CWM is pretty simple: If you have no intention of trying the new edition (because all the reason you could have and that I respect and can somehow understand even if I don't agree with them) why the hell are you spitting on everything WOC release? Is it possible to discuss the new rules without a "WOTC and 4E suck!" like (for exemple) KaeYoss oblige himself to repeat on this thread...?
Since those people already made there mind for a long time why does all the new information release by Wotc bother them so much that they feel a compulsive needs to complaint about it every time? Since they won't ever play this game, tell me why we should bother listening then...?
Every single new WOTC release is attacked by the same peoples.... Does repeating "4E sucks" 100 times will change the fact that a new edition will be release in a few month? Do they believe that they can convert other peoples to their way of thinking?
Can we not simply discuss of the game rules or how we can use them or change them to enhanced our gaming experience with the new Edition?
CWM does not dismiss criticism... to the contrary... He dismiss opinion that are not constructive... Crying out loud that WotC suck is not an argument and don't contribute anything to the discussion of those who will actualy try the new edition... You don't like a specific rule? Can you just explain why without insulting Wotc, the developpers or peoples who could actually like those rules changes?
That's all...
...for a new batch of gamers.... And for old gamers who are ready for real changes... IMHO!
First of all, whenever I see "IMHO", I get the feeling that the person who writes it doesn't consider his opinion to be humble at all. Might be wrong, but there it is.
And I don't care for the veiled insult that we don't want change, either.
The thing is: While we know that a new edition is bound to change things, we think that it should still be just a new edition. It shouldn't be a new game.
That's like saying: "Baseball is now played sitting down, the balls are bigger and there's no bats. But it's still baseball. We say so. What, are you afraid of real changes?"
But it's interesting that you act all offended and then go ahead and tell us to STFU. Since we don't want to pay wizards anyway, we apparently have no right to speak about it. Our opinion seems to be worthless.
Have you been taking lessons? Or are you naturally that good at antagonising people?
If you don't want to hear those who don't like 4e, well that's tough luck. I suggest living with it or going somewhere where they aren't allowed to talk. You can of course stay here, but then you must accept that Paizo doesn't ban people for saying that they don't like things. That's wizards behaviour (and if you repeat that "you're insulting the poor guys at WotC" line: I'm stating facts here. They do that.)
And I'd also like you to stop insinuating that everyone who doesn't like 4e is insulting the designers. It's flat out wrong.
So whenever we hear something more about 4e and we don't like it, we will keep saying just what we like about it. You can live with it or you can go, it's as easy as that. If you think I'm trying to chase you away now, I guess I have to live with that.
In a way, I actually am trying to chase you away: If you cannot accept the way things are around here, that people aren't shut off if they say things wizards doesn't like, you have no place here. Basic principle in every society: They've got rules. If you don't like them, your place is not in that society. The society isn't chasing you off, you do that all by yourself.
To Kaeyoss:
So when
I think they've lost any interest in where D&D has come from -- they want a new game played a new way for a new batch of gamers.
IMHO :)
...you actually believe that is opinon are not humble or that he's lying??? Or it his just when I'm writing the same thing?
And you feel insult by my '...who are ready for real changes' ??? What word bother you? Change? Real? Or the implication that the new game is only design for a new batch of gamers? I am only stating that a lot of older gamers want/are ready for real/major changes with this new edition... This is probably not to the taste of everyone and I agree that the new edition seem somehow more different than expected at first, but can we, in some 4E thread, stop debating or complaining about WoC poor marketing strategy and other irrevelants facts and opinions and focus our discussion about the game mechanic (Pro and Con) to make our own opinion... I guess that's all CWM is asking... But it seem this is probably to much to ask for now...
And yes.. when you begin a post by stating that Wotc and 4E sucks and that you won't touch the new edition with a 10ft pole, the rest of your post is meaningless for the purpose of discuting the merits and flaws of a new game system if we want objective arguments...
And I am not insinuating that everyone who doesn't like 4e is insulting the designers or those who want to play this new edition... In fact there is indeed a very few minority who pollute this board with their insults... But you are definitivly one of those few... But you are right: I guess I should simply walk away as you suggest or ignore your post...
I should do that... thanks again Kaeyoss for making this board a better place!
This thread is illuminating and revealing. Truly.
This thread is illuminating and revealing. Truly.
To echo what TatterD stated above, I don't think the move to 4.0 is difficult to comprehend. WoTC ASSUMES that the loyal supporters of the game (all of us who are in our 30's who have stuck with d&d for the past 10+ years, 20+ in many cases) will stick with the game no matter what, and more often than not, they‘ve been correct. They've counted on that in the past, and been well rewarded for it. It is my opinion that WoTC assumes that the 30's crowd will continue to stay with the hobby, even if we are less than pleased with what directions they (WoTC) choose to take the game in. I deem the contention that WoTC are neglecting their "loyal following" of 30's crowd members, in favor of marketing the game to a new younger audience, to be overall quite valid. It would be ideal if WoTC could market the game to new prospective players while remaining true to the concepts and ideas upon which the game is founded. I think that a happy medium is readily reachable. Alas, WoTC, it seems, does not.
As for ‘when the debate will or should end‘... Why should it end? The premise of the Original poster (Crossminded I believe) is that people should “stop talking about Whether? and instead merely focus on talking about the merits of 4th edition. I doubt that most of the posters on this website have even played 4.0 yet, or like myself, played it at the d&d experience in Crystal City Virginia last weekend and still can’t offer in-depth opinions on it with any degree of certainty. One thing I will tell those of you who support 4.0 (and probably haven’t played it yet…), the game is QUITE DIFFERENT from 3.5. Don’t expect minor tweaks only. The notion that people should “Want to update to 4.0” doesn’t hold much water. When people ‘invest’ in something, they want CONTINUITY. I have a wonderful Toyata Carolla. I’m sure next year’s 2009 model will be superior to my current model. But I’m satisfied with what I’ve got, and I don’t see the rationale for trading in my perfectly good Carolla for a newer one, just because “it’s new” or because “Toyata says I should.” If everyone embraced this logic, we’d all buy new TV’s, Cars, etc., and every game book offered because “it’s cool, it’s new, and the company in question says we OUGHT TO BUY IT.“ d&d needs to offer a system that is not going to be updated every 3-4 years, as 3.0 and 3.5 both have. I recognize that this method offers more financial incentives to WoTC, but they Will lose players if they continue to do this. Furthermore, WoTC would be well advised to curtail the endless Splatbooks that water down the quality of the overall game to the point where a new edition needs to be considered (which is part of the reason why we are where we are). This may cost WotC some money in the short run, but would keep more players in for the long haul.
Furthermore, I don’t think it’s reasonable to advocate for the cessation of any legitimate debate. While granted there are many posters that aren’t very logical or rational in their presentation of their opinions, they’re certainly entitled to them. Ultimately, I would ask you Crossminded and you Fabeminis, Why do you care whether people want to stick with 3.5, or go with 4.0? And please (assuming you care to reply to my question at all), avoid trying to dance around the fact that you are firmly of the opinion that people should go with 4.0 and those who abjectly refuse are somehow confused (at best) and mentally disturbed (at worst). I don’t think it should matter to either of you whether anyone on this website chooses 3.5 or 4.0 unless you hold stock in Hasbro or work for WoTC. Ultimately whether anyone chooses to stick with 3.5 or 4.0 is their decision, and they DON’T have to logically defend it (though you and I could undoubtedly agree that we’d like them to do so whenever possible.)
I would however join with the original poster and encourage those who wish to vehemently bash 4.0 in a rude and counterproductive manner to kindly keep their opinions to themselves. I enjoyed the 4.0 game at the CON last weekend, and though I won't be playing 4.0 any time soon, I certainly wish well to the new game and those who intend to play it. It's not a bad game, just DIFFERENT. If you don't like, stick with 3.5 or whatever you've been playing.
You want a logical response for why I won't be buying 4th edition anytime soon? How's this?
PH/DMG/MM - July 2003 - Cover price 29.95*3 = $89.85
Complete Series - Dec 2003-May 2007 - (Warrior, Divine, Arcane, Adventurer, Psionic, Mage, Champion) - cover price 29.95*7 = $209.65
MM 3-5 - Aug 2004, July 2006, July 2007 - 34.95*3 = $104.85
DMG2/PH2 - June 2005, May 2006 - $39.95, $34.95 = $74.90
EPH/Races of the Dragon/Dragon Magic/Dungeonscape - April 2004, Jan 2006, Sept 2006, Feb 2007 - $34.95 + ($29.95*3) = $125.80
Now this is just my personal collection of 3.5 related material that is specific to Wizards of the Coast, not including my subscription to Paizo's products, but in that selection of 19 books alone is material that will be able to keep me busy for years to come. I want to run a complete Psionics game. I want to run in Saltmarsh. Teamwork benefits is something I'm looking forward to using with players. Spellscales running an entire country, at odds with the Yuan-ti could be a lot of fun to throw humans into. Running a dragonpact adventure would make for a great Campaign. Throw in Affiliations into the mix, and watch the characters grow in a different direction than just levelling up. Introducing Mind Flayers of Thoon into the mix would be a Campaign in and of itself.
None of this even includes any other books that I just haven't gotten around to getting yet, like setting-specific books, and even beyond that, older books from 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd edition that I could convert over to the gameplay of 3.5 (I will finish the Moathouse yet, by God!).
So, jump from 3.5 to 4.0 at this date? I don't think so. I'm invested into (at least) 19 books costing just over $600 US. Now when you consider that I actually live in Canada, that cost jumps again by about 30%. Is that close to $800 dollars now? Just in these books alone. And now I am into the Pathfinder setting too. Does it start to make more and more sense why I wouldn't want, or even contemplate wanting to change over to 4.0 anytime soon? I went through all this with 3.0, and to a lesser extent 3.5. Been there, done that. I even have bought a t-shirt or two. The revamping of the rules were needed and joyously accepted by me as the next step of the game. 4.0 is, again, probably the next evolution of how the game will evolve. Unfortunately for Wizards, they have undone themselves out of this sale. Their other products, specifically 3.5 and before hold more than enough for me and my gaming partners to keep happily skipping along in the dungeons for the foreseeable future (metaphorically speaking in most cases). The new 'shiny' version just doesn't make me interested in it enough to render my already considerable collection obsolete.
But these are just my thoughts, not yours. Later.
I guess you miss my point entirely Fopalup...
I understand pretty well the reason why a lot of gamers won't switch to the 4E... Could be money, time investement in a campaing, anger about WOTC for poor marketing, the feeling that the new rules is going to far from the the 'classical' way of playing DnD, etc... I admit that a few months ago I didn't not understand a lot of those concerns and find people close-mind for not sharing my point of view but I change my mind and found that those are valid opinions and I respect that even if I don't necesserly share those opinions...
And in thread that ask general questions like: 'Will you convert to 4E or Does Pathfinder should convert to 4E', it's clear that people should answer with logic or there guts felling if they want...DnD is more than just a game for a lot of people and I understand that they need to vantilate their frustration... But even then, those opinions and frustrations should avoid targeting or insulting others who don't share them...
But my point is: If you already state that you won't ever play 4E for any of those reason, why do you come in discussion threat about specific game mechanic of 4E (like roles, racial abilites, combat, etc) and pollute those discussion with insults and with comments on how much 4E sucks and how those rules are design for 10 years old...? or repeating again and again why you won't even try 4E cause Wots is an evil empire? If you are not interested in 4E and don't want to contribute, you should stay away from those discussion...
For me it's like someone who still play WEG (d6) starwars and feel the urge to go to the SAGA starwars games board to tell them how much their game sucks! That's rude and don't add anything to the discussion...
However I think that all those debate will end when Paizo will decide what they want to do with Pathfinder and Gamemastery. And ironicaly I think that their best strategy should be to stay with 3.5E for at least a year since I don't think that the new core rules will have, for the moment, enough elements (races, class, monsters) for them to tell the story they wish to tell...
They should probably release a few 4E gamemastery modules (some of Paizo Freelancer will write some 4E module for WOTC anyway) to take the pulse of the market but keep Pathfinder 3.5 for now... I think that they don't risk loosing much of their share of the market that way and will make a lot of players happy...
Actually, I'm curious, has anyone started a poll on whether they would change over to 4th Edi? Forget all the rants and raves and go straight for the numbers. It might give Paizo some help in decision making, instead of who is most passionate about the issue. Like start a thread where you have a vote, and any rants go behind a spoiler. Like
Just a thought if we are trying to help Paizo make a decision.
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Maybe not. CWM is tenacious as a barnacle. He doesn't give up. But I don't recall him ever actually disrespecting anyone, or calling them a names.Actually, he has called people out for being irrational while on other threads posting stuff that was patently insensible. Now that was when he first came onto the thread, but hypocrisy really sticks in my craw. Added to this are the posts where he has been ambiguous or made generalisms that marginalize other posters and then proceeded to blame consequent misunderstandings on other posters.
This seems to me to be disrespectful, so I don't really get upset when someone gets offended and goes ad hominem on him.
Oy. I stop paying attention for two days and this happens? :-)
Seriously - I do not call people irrational. The arguments people make here are often irrational but that does not make them irrational.
Furthermore - care to show me where I have made a judgement about 4E that was irrational? And if my posts are ever ambiguous then I suggest asking me what I mean rather than loading the sling with rabbit pellets. If I am misunderstood and you do not make an effort to understand what I am saying they - yes - it is your fault and not mine. I write in a direct and specific manner. If you do not understand it then ask - is that so hard to do?
I can not help it if someone skims a post of mine and chooses the quick and dirty path of an ad hominem attack AND then gets all pissy when I call them on it.
I am sorry if it comes of as disrespectful but I will not hold people's hands if they are unwilling to take the time to actually read and understand any of my posts.
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Recently, he even started a petition to return Greyhawk into 4e in the honour of EGG, and that earned him more of my respect than I thought possible.I'd say that the biggest honour for Gary would be to keep GH out of 4e, so my estimation of CWM just sank through the floor! :P
Well, if you had been paying attention the petition asks them to either make it a part of their planned 4E releases or license it to a trusted publisher under the OGL or GSL.