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So I put this on here so others can see it and share their thoughts too.
I was a subscriber to Dungeon magazine and had a ton of issues left, so I received the first 5 issues of Pathfinder for free. (Like I said I had a ton of issues left). Those have all arrived and I went through the books.
Overall, I thought the books were nice. Production quality is excellent, I love the artwork and cartograhpy especially. The production and designer notes in the margins are great and I love the characterization that the team has brought to old favorites.
But.. I'm not subscribing. Here's why.
I've got a couple campaign's going and they're in full swing. So the whole idea of this "adventure path" is problematic to me. I need gaming resources out of a magazine, not a serial event. So even when I was getting Dungeon, they mostly were fun to read and I'd occasionally slip in a short module or two or steal some concepts here or there.
I can do the same sort of thing with the Pathfinder, but it's got so much history and serialized story to it that I'd end up doing alot of work to do so.
Another issue is that it's not like I'm starting a campaign from scratch all the time. So if the particular adventure path that's coming out for the next 6 months doesn't fit to what we're doing, I'm spending $20 a month for 6 months waiting until the next Pathfinder starts.
When Dungeon came out, there was usually at least 3 adventures - low, middle, high level. I could usually use something out of there with any of my campaigns. Not so with Pathfinder. I'm stuck in their serial story.
The price point/month vs. what Dungeon cost is a big factor here too. The wife gives me the eye over the gaming budget as it is. Spending $20/month ($240/year!) on books I'm not using is tough. For $20 I can get a bunch of .pdf content.
I think Paizo might have been better off giving the option of Gamemaster modules as the replacement for Dungeon. I would have preferred the modules at this point. I can slip the modules into an ongoing campaign much easier and I would have received more modules vs. the 5 books I have sitting on a shelf.
So for me, the decision is clear. I'm not going to pick up the 6th Pathfinder. I have the first 5 books. IF I ever do have a new campaign starting and IF we decide to do Pathfinder and IF we do manage to get to 15th level then I can pick up the 6th book then. Lot of IF's isn't it?
Similarly, when the next Pathfinder starts, I can pick up the first .pdf and check it out. If it seems interesting I can subscribe and get those. If not, I can wait until the next one starts.
Some of this also depends on how they go with 4th edition, because I know some of our guys are debating that as well.
I don't necessarily make these comments to knock Paizo, but to hopefully give them feedback about their market. All the people on these boards already saying "pathfinder's great!" are not who they need to get to buy the product. Most of you folks reading this are already subscribers, so give them some feedback on what you think they can do to broaden their market and strengthen the company.
I would be very interested to hear if Paizo is already aware of this and how they view it.
-Pete
Creative Director
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We do realize that 2 campaigns a year is more than a lot of folk can play. But there's also a lot of readers who never run any of the campaigns too... they just read them for the pleasure of reading adventures. And then there's the collectors, and the stockpilers, and the cherry pickers... there's a lot more ways to use an Adventure Path than simply running it as a campaign.
Over the past five years, after reading countless emails and letters and reviews and talking with people at conventions or game stores, one thing was bluntly obvious. The most successful thing that Paizo ever pulled off in either magazine (Dragon OR Dungeon) were the Adventure Paths. And so it made sense to lead with our strongest, most popular offering as a "replacement" for the magazines. Whether or not Pathfinder will continue to be the most popular RPG thing we're doing here at Paizo remains to be seen, and it certainly WILL continue to evolve as we go forward (in large part due to customer feedback; keep those comments coming!), but at this point Pathfinder seems to have been the right choice as far as a flagship product and option for continuing a cancelled magazine subscription. Sorry it didn't turn out to be the right choice for you, but it does sound like the GameMastery line (and when it gets going, the Pathfinder Chronicles line of gazetteers and supplements) might be a better choice for you. That said, thanks for giving Pathfinder a try! :-)
I haven't had time to run Pathfinder, but I enjoy reading the adventure paths for the sheer pleasure of it. At its best, following the path is like reading a serialized adventure novel (with illustrations, in condensed form, because I have so little time to read actual novels and am looked on great visuals.) Hook Mountain Massacre was really fun (oh, that picture of Mammy Graul!) It reminded me of 19th century adventures of Englishmen trapsing through the wilderness, running from cannibals, etc, with even a sad lovely lady at the end. The last installment wasn't as fun to read, but I ended up using several of the new monsters (hound of tindallos, shining child of thassilon, the black abbot) in my own campaign. Since no one else in the group subscribes to Pathfinder, the encounters came off as strange, challenging, and shall we say, rather deadly (it also helped to have a power gamer run the monsters as a 2nd DM. Oh the look of glee on his face....) I intend to subscribe to Pathfinder for quite a while, regardless of which game edition I end up playing or whether I have time to run a path.
While I do agree with the OP that Pathfinder is a poor replacement for Dungeon Magazine - and the Dungeon Magazine Adventure Paths, incidentally - for multiple reasons, I am one of those aforementioned "stockpilers".
I don't plan on running any Pathfinders anytime soon, but I'm a big-time stockpiler - I get adventures ASAP in case I need them, and in case a "perfect time" to use them comes up (and they do!). It baffles me how one can get 5/6ths of an adventure path, and then skip the final one, maybe getting it 'sometime in the future' (when it may be long-since out of print; though I supposed PDF is always an option). But so it goes from a stockpiler's mentality... :)
So I plan on getting the Pathfinders as soon as they come out (though not through subscription, as I'm from outside the US and get them orders of magnitude cheaper and more reliably from Amazon.ca), because I never know when a perfect time to run them will be...
So I plan on getting the Pathfinders as soon as they come out (though not through subscription, as I'm from outside the US and get them orders of magnitude cheaper and more reliably from Amazon.ca), because I never know when a perfect time to run them will be...
Sorry for the threadjack. I'm in Canada and I don't have the volume five pdf yet. When you say that you get them more reliably through amazon.ca, Arnwyn, I get intrigued. Can you give me specifics?
Sorry for the threadjack. I'm in Canada and I don't have the volume five pdf yet. When you say that you get them more reliably through amazon.ca, Arnwyn, I get intrigued. Can you give me specifics?
Well... it depends on your definition of "reliable" in this case! ;) Amazon has been getting the Pathfinders in reasonably quickly in comparison to the Gamemastery mods (which they... haven't been getting in at all).
Further, once Amazon says it ships, I know I'll get in in just a couple of days.
The best thing to do, though, is to pre-order. They disappear from stock pretty quickly, and then - if you need it ASAP - it's better to bite the bullet and order from Paizo. (For example, even right now, RotRL #1 and #3 are in stock, so one can get those for cheap lickety-split, while #2 and #4 were in stock, but disappeared somewhat quickly.)
Now, this is a tad academic - and is just me keeping careful eye on Amazon.ca for the last 5 months or so... because I still get up to Pathfinder #7 from Paizo before I need to make my decision on how (or whether) to proceed! (But ouch... still not even the PDF yet? I got mine about a week or so ago... but who knows when I'll see the print version.)
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Thanks, Arnwyn. That was most informative.
It's my understanding that the PDF becomes available the same time your payment goes through... has that already happend for you SirUrza?
Sean Mahoney
I understand the OP's point, and he stated it extremely well.
And it's unfortunate that "Dungeon" was canceled, needless to say. :(
But there's also a lot of readers who never run any of the campaigns too... they just read them for the pleasure of reading adventures.
Personally, that's where I'm at. I'm the type of player who will almst always pick up adventures and/or settings before rulebooks.
That said, I'm enjoying reading "Runelords", and looking forward to "Crimson Throne". But, beyond that, I'll have to see what the future brings.
I know little has been disclosed about the 3rd AP, but (IIRC) it's mentioned to focus heavily on Drow; I'll have to see the Pathfinder take on them.
And, of course, 4E will also factor in, whether I upgrade, and whether Paizo does, as well. (I'm still on the fence, but am leaning towards sticking with 3.x.)
I understand the OP viewpoint, but I'm the opposite. I never bought Dungeon as I really don't like unrelated adventures. I run longterm campaigns, and if I have to rewrite a lot of stuff, I may as well be running one of my homebrews. Granted, I haven't bought modules for that fact for some years. Somewhere in the early 90's I realized the version of the realms that I had been running didn't resemble anything like the realms other than the names on the maps. Pathfinder intrigued me because it is a longterm campaign, and I just don't have the time to write stat blocks like I used to.
By the way, I just started Burnt Offerings. The first session went great.
I also want to add something to the Amazon.com comments. I've had a hit or miss experience there too. I recently received a preorder offer for the Maps Folio at a slight discount. However, I noticed that Amazon gave an estimated shipping date of Jan 15th. Odd since Paizo lists an estimated relaese of Feb. We'll see what happens.
But.. I'm not subscribing. Here's why.
Yah, man, I can totally understand.
Gamemastery modules really fill in that plug-in feel of Dungeon for me.
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It's my understanding that the PDF becomes available the same time your payment goes through... has that already happend for you SirUrza?
Nope, but the VP of Operations just admitted in the store forum that the Folio held up everyone's order, so that's why I'm sitting with the 2 printed books.
Luckily I know where to get PDFs when I want them because I'd be fuming right now if I couldn't have my stuff. :)
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I have siad this before on another thread. First I am loving Pathfinder and the Modules immensely.
The thing I would worry about if I dropped my subscription because I was not ready to play a Path or had too many modules, etc. but was interested in the work overall.
One day down the road if I was looking for back issues that I might not be able to find them easily or for a decent price. Look back at the available Dragon and Dungeon magazines to see what is available and what is not. As a matter of fact - look on some of the websites that sell old D&D stuff like Troll and Toad and see what they are selling these old issues for.
I also love getting the PDF (not that I have mine yet this time around - I'm dying here). My books are in pristine shape because I have printed out the information from the PDFs and put them into notebook that I use to run our game.
I rarely talk much here, but I feel like I should mention something here. I managed to get a charter for Pathfinder, but I have never purchased an issue of Dungeon. Well, I take that back, I bought one. I really had no need to buy adventures, as while Paizo was publishing them, I had no games to play in, much less DM.
Then the announcement came, and Pathfinder was to be Paizo's big product line to help fill the loss of the magazines. While I never really purchased Dungeon, I picked up many issues of Dragon. I liked the options they gave, and the insights into what the game could be, instead of just what it is. I signed up knowing full well that I'd be paying over double for less content, because I wanted to support the company that helped me through a dry spell in gaming.
On a related note, my fandom of Dragon wasn't just for the character options. I'd like to write for Dungeons and Dragons someday. I'm nowhere near RPG-Superstar level yet(hell, my entry would probably get laughed out), but I'd like to get there. Dragon helped me get together what balance was, and what professional writing for the game looked like.
Now, five months later, I'm pleasantly surprised by Pathfinder. The expansion content I expected has been great, but the adventures have been drawing a lot more of my attention. Adventure writing is one of my many weak points. Now, I'm getting a surplus of high-quality adventures, and I'm getting the same out of them as I was with my Dragon magazines. Not just content, but ideas. I've noticed my writing improving just by picking up little areas of detail from Pathfinder. Like the haunts. I never would have thought of that, yet now not only do I not have to, I can integrate the idea in the other adventures I run/write. Will I run the adventures? Probably. I have a group with a Grognard, and it looks as though 4th isn't an option for a while. Yet with the DM chair being switched every campaign, I've got years ahead just from what I have now.
Is it worth it to me? Yes. Will the same reasons apply to you? Probably not. Does Pathfinder rule as much ass as Tordek? ...not quite, but it's the closest thing I've seen so far.
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That said, thanks for giving Pathfinder a try! :-)
I'm now tempted to sign up for more simply because his Editor-In-Chiefness is the first to respond. Very Impressive and a highly logical response that makes complete sense to me. Working in customer service myself, you can't get much better than that. I can tell you it will sell more to me in the future.
Pete
I love Pathfinder...but I will admit I would prefer that it were only bimonthly instead of monthly. This is in part because there's no way I'll run two campaigns a year (and probably not even two in two years). But it's also because if Pathfinder were bimonthly I could afford to purchase a GameMastery module in the "off" months. Because of some financial issues, Pathfinder is currently my only gaming expense. (But believe me when I say I would love to send you guys more money.)
Randy
I love Pathfinder...but I will admit I would prefer that it were only bimonthly instead of monthly. This is in part because there's no way I'll run two campaigns a year (and probably not even two in two years). But it's also because if Pathfinder were bimonthly I could afford to purchase a GameMastery module in the "off" months. Because of some financial issues, Pathfinder is currently my only gaming expense. (But believe me when I say I would love to send you guys more money.)
Randy
And of course, now that I've said that, I have to call myself a liar....
Visited my FLGS today, during their winter sale. All gaming 20% off. Came home with the Rise of the Runelords Item Cards and Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale.
And to get this back to topic: Pathfinder rocks. Just keep doing what you're doing.
Randy
Well, I understand the OP's viewpoint. On the other hand, I'm loving Pathfinder and have just subscribed, so I guess it just goes to show that no one product will appeal to all (naturally enough).
I'm probably quite rare (here) in that I don't play or run D&D/d20, nor do I intend to.
So why did I subscribe to Pathfinder, a d20/OGL based serial adventure thingy?
Basically, what happened was this: I was to my FLGS here in Helsinki, and saw an issue of Pathfinder sitting on a shelf. Now, even though I don't do D&D, I do run an Exalted campaign and am considering trying out Reign and Burning Wheel, so I'm always on the lookout for resonably generic fantasy campaigns and modules that I can convert to whatever system and game world I happen to feel like running. Besides, I just generally enjoy reading pre-gen adventures, if only to mine them for ideas.
So, I saw Pathfinder and leafed through it. Initial impressions: *very* high production values, nice art, looks like it has a lot of content. Looks interesting. Then I looked at the price (20 euros I think), and since I was on a somewhat tight budget at the time and realized that I would need to get 6 of these in order to get a full campaign (6 x 20 euros = 120e or about $170, ouch).So I gave it a pass at the time.
Then some time later I stumbled here (Paizo's web site), and noticed that due to the low rate of the dollar vs the euro, I could get the Pathfinder volumes cheaper by ordering from the States. Then I noticed the subscription option, which initially I was a bit iffy on but soon noticed the perk: PDFs of each issue. I did the math, and concluded that I could get the books delivered to my home, with PDFs downloadable, for less than 15 euros total (incl shipping) per issue. Not bad. So, I subscribed. I could say that the "PDFs included" thing was what closed the deal for me.
Some points in a nutshell:
- The high production values can and do lure in people, even ones who don't generally buy D&D products.
- I really like the idea of Pathfinder; continuing but limited adventure campaigns are cool, and useful in lots of fantasy game contexts. Standalone "modules" are nice, too, but those already exist in droves.
- Some crazy people might even intend to use these with indie stuff like Reign and Burning Wheel (gasp! :)
- The "PDFs for free with subscription" is a GREAT idea. Especially so for us international gamers, we get a version of the issue to browse while waiting for the physical copy to arrive. It doesn't cost much anything additional for Paizo, and doesn't cannibalize print sales (since the people have already paid for the print copy). It's pure win-win.
- Additional praise is due for Paizo's very reasonable international shipping fees.
So... good stuff. I'm really liking this game supplement model.
That said, thanks for giving Pathfinder a try! :-)I'm now tempted to sign up for more simply because his Editor-In-Chiefness is the first to respond. Very Impressive and a highly logical response that makes complete sense to me. Working in customer service myself, you can't get much better than that. I can tell you it will sell more to me in the future.
Pete
Heh. That´s paizo magic at work, I guess - got you even if you don´t want to :-)
Stefan
I do understand where the OP is coming from. Personally I love Pathfinder. I was a subscriber to Dungeon Magazine during the first AP (SCAP) and it was amazing to me. I didn't understand why this hadn't been done before (Against the Giants aside, was before my time). Sadly my subscription ran out before the end of that AP, and at the time I couldn't afford to renew. I still picked up the issue of Dungeon and the issue of Dragon from time to time, but could never accumulate the issues for the AP's that followed.
When I found out that Paizo was doing Pathfinder, I knew I wanted to purchase immediately, and I subscribed as soon as I feasibly could. For me the Pathfinders are phenomenal; I have a ready campaign to run, and the supplemental material is incredibly useful: I could easily run a campaign just off the info in the supplemental section. I am a hoarder, I read gaming books for pleasure, just as I read fantasy novels, philosophy texts, and speculative science books for pleasure. Pathfinder are some of the better reading when it comes to gaming books. So while I do understand where the OP is coming from, I will say that I personally am greatly pleased with Pathfinder and I hope that Paizo keeps up the fantastic work.
(And I'm horribly excited for Curse of the Crimson Throne might I add!)
Well fellers, I'm not a subscriber, but I own the first book in the Pathfinder series and have #1 and #2 on PDF (actually these were free downloads but I can't remember where I got 'em - drivethrurpg, maybe?). I just began a new campaign and I was torn between Pathfinder and Red Hand of Doom. I went with RHoD and this is why: I didn't want to "lock into" a series of modules with my players. I wanted more a stand-alone adventure that could be over when it's over or could lead into further spin-off adventures. Thus, I chose RHoD. Maybe that's how others feel too who are not buying into the Pathfinder series.
That being said, from what I have read, the Pathfinder series ROCKS! It's very well done and detailed and looks like it is only going to get gooder and gooder (as the old country feller says!). Many new campaign worlds are done half-assed and offer very little "meat" to players and DMs. Not so with Pathfinder - man, this world is shaping up to be something phenomenal and I am excited for those...well, who are excited about it! It's contagious! I'm hoping to actually PLAY in the Runelord series one of these days when I can get into a game. My schedule is a little full right now, but I'm sure this will be running online for years to come.
Peace!
-g-