...what makes it, well, "Greyhawkey"?
This isn't intended as a bash on Pathfinder/Gamemastery/Golarion generally; I like it. But at the same time, there's a significant (if hard-to-define) flavor that Greyhawk has, that I was rather hoping to see come through in the Pathfinder series, and so far I'm not seeing it yet.
Maybe it's a mistake on my part to be looking for that; if so, I'll accept that with some disappointment.
Or maybe I'm just missing it. If people are getting that Gygaxian vibe and it's eluding me, please help me see it by bringing up examples.
I'm looking to be converted here. :) Not converted into thinking one is better than the other, but rather into thinking that the two are quite similar.
-The Gneech
PS: Please no flamewars. Please don't let it turn into a "this setting SUCKS that setting RULES" thread or anything along those lines.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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One thing I like better about Golarion so far is they haven't adopted a very modern understanding of nationhood. I love the competing citystates with fuzzy borders. I love Magnimar trying to extend its reach into areas normally aligned with Korvosa by sending aid to the Black Arrows in the 3rd module.
The type of nations we have now with every border clearly defined and every place accounted for--at least that's the theory, right?--requires at least the invention of the printing press or a magical alternative.
I love Greyhawk but it was a little bit too stable.
I hope that Varisia doesn't turn out to be the exception. I hope they continue with the much more medieval feeling of competing city-states and the territories around them with complex allegiances etc.
One thing I like better about Golarion so far is they haven't adopted a very modern understanding of nationhood. I love the competing citystates with fuzzy borders. I love Magnimar trying to extend its reach into areas normally aligned with Korvosa by sending aid to the Black Arrows in the 3rd module.
The type of nations we have now with every border clearly defined and every place accounted for--at least that's the theory, right?--requires at least the invention of the printing press or a magical alternative.
I love Greyhawk but it was a little bit too stable.
I hope that Varisia doesn't turn out to be the exception. I hope they continue with the much more medieval feeling of competing city-states and the territories around them with complex allegiances etc.
I agree, fuzzy borders with competing city-states is definitely a medieval feel I like!
Please keep in mind that Varisia is a small region on the northern continent of Golarion. There are places elsewhere in the world that are going to feel more stable and more set borders-wise. That being said, the Pathfinder Chronicles campaign setting is designed to provide places for every style of campaign that our readers would want. You were lucky -- we created your ideal campaign region first. :-)
I like that we've been able to get in on the ground floor of this campaign world, and discover it as we go...
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I think Golarion has the following things in common with Greyhawk:
• Lots of human subraces.
• Takes inspiration from Howard, Leiber, etc. This is pulp fantasy.
• Has a crashed space ship somewhere on the world.
• Built using the core assumptions, essentially, of first edition.
• Has Vikings.
• Cultures exist within a context, rather than a hodge-podge.
• Lots of dungeons. The point of the world is a place in which to set adventures. Adventures drive the world.
• I like both of them a lot.
There are more similarities, but those are the ones that jump out at me immediately.
--Erik
I think Golarion has the following things in common with Greyhawk:
• Lots of human subraces.
• Takes inspiration from Howard, Leiber, etc. This is pulp fantasy.
• Has a crashed space ship somewhere on the world.
• Built using the core assumptions, essentially, of first edition.
• Has Vikings.
• Cultures exist within a context, rather than a hodge-podge.
• Lots of dungeons. The point of the world is a place in which to set adventures. Adventures drive the world.
• I like both of them a lot.There are more similarities, but those are the ones that jump out at me immediately.
--Erik
Ah dammit! I see your dastardly plans now! You're trying to make feel so comfortable with your new fancy world that I might even consider following you to hell (oops, I mean 4e) and back.
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• Has a crashed space ship somewhere on the world.
Spaceships? how tiresome.
• Has Vikings.
Nothing says "Adventure!" like farming...
Perhaps I'm just being a reet misery-guts and focusing on the negative but spaceships undermine versimilitude! Are we going to see espresso machines and mobile phones too?
Vikings are a real tangle because they're either naval barbarians (Moonshae?) or farmers who occasionally raid. The farmers are a knotty problem that requires lengthy political maneuvering which is difficult for adventurers to play a major role in, whilst the barbarians' primitivism doesn't make sense in light of the sophistication of ocean-going vessels and their construction.
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Perhaps I'm just being a reet misery-guts and focusing on the negative but spaceships undermine versimilitude!
I don't think so. Elements of Sci-fi have been in fantasy since fantasy has begun as a genre. Heck, I remember when I was younger, fantasy books where kept in the sci-fi section.
Greyhawk has elements. Wilderlands has elements. I'm pretty cool with it as long as it is not over done.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Perhaps I'm just being a reet misery-guts and focusing on the negative but spaceships undermine versimilitude! Are we going to see espresso machines and mobile phones too?
verisimilitude \ver-uh-suh-MIL-uh-tood; -tyood\, noun:
1. The appearance of truth; the quality of seeming to be true.2. Something that has the appearance of being true or real.
Either I'm misunderstanding this dictionary or the hot chick with the big red claw and the scratches on her belly already did that for me ...
... No, wait, I know girls like that ...
Umm, ... okay, the scary guy in the basement dressed in goth plotting death and destruction...
DAMNIT!!
Okay, the ELVES! The ELVES UNDERMINED THE VERSIMILITUDE.
But I'm probably misunderstanding your use of the word.
• Has a crashed space ship somewhere on the world.
SQUEE! *dies*
...dammit, that's only supposed to happen to fangirls... ^.^;
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Personally I'd love it if the Vikings took a bit from the Mandalorians (as in a distinct culture that primarily expands by acquiring people from other cultures) than "northern barbarians with longships and beards" (I have no idea what your plans are of course)
I submit that the two are not mutually exclusive. Your reference to the Mandalorians is interesting, because one of the touchstones I've been using when thinking of the warriors of the Linnorm Kings are the likewise mercenary Varangians, particularly the Varangian Guard of ancieny Byzantium.
That and farming, of course.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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• Takes inspiration from Howard, Leiber, etc. This is pulp fantasy.
Erik mentioned Howard as being one of the influences. That was one of the first things I noticed.
Howard drew upon real-world names and cultures to the extent that a lot of Conan can be read as having racist undertones (am I understating?) today. I also remember an early critique of Greyhawk published in Dragon that suggested Gygax repeated real-world racism.
So far I haven't seen anything that bugs me about in Golarion in that regard. Am I missing it or are these guys do a good job of avoiding associating skin and hair colour with culture and behaviour in a way that is unimaginatively racist?
Am I missing it or are these guys do a good job of avoiding associating skin and hair colour with culture and behaviour in a way that is unimaginatively racist?
I'd say yes, but read the writeup on Seelah, the Paladin of Iomedae and come to your own conclusion. :)
Do they come from the land of ice and snow, from the midnight sun where the hot springs blow?
And are they kittens?
Dangit. So much for my Clonebots of the Flumph Nebula adventure path idea. Well, at least I still have my battlemechs...what?....Dangit!
Stupid versimilitude.
Now then Kaza.
And I think you'll find it was OUR idea for clonebots of the flumph nebula, whch was due to be the first part of our purple temple of the titanic flumph of doom trilogy...alas, the best laid plans...
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Contributor
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I submit that the two are not mutually exclusive. Your reference to the Mandalorians is interesting, because one of the touchstones I've been using when thinking of the warriors of the Linnorm Kings are the likewise mercenary Varangians, particularly the Varangian Guard of ancieny Byzantium.
That and farming, of course.
I love the Varangians. Harald Hardrada is one of my heroes. Someone should make a movie about him. Erik, you just made my day a little brighter.
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Personally I'd love it if the Vikings took a bit from the Mandalorians (as in a distinct culture that primarily expands by acquiring people from other cultures) than "northern barbarians with longships and beards" (I have no idea what your plans are of course)I submit that the two are not mutually exclusive. Your reference to the Mandalorians is interesting, because one of the touchstones I've been using when thinking of the warriors of the Linnorm Kings are the likewise mercenary Varangians, particularly the Varangian Guard of ancieny Byzantium.
That and farming, of course.
You would love Byzantium by Stephen Lawhead.
I think Golarion has the following things in common with Greyhawk:
• Lots of human subraces.
• Cultures exist within a context, rather than a hodge-podge.
True dat. Good point.
• Takes inspiration from Howard, Leiber, etc. This is pulp fantasy.
Hmm ... I'd like to see more of that. Some of it may be the artwork, but I'm not really getting that much of a pulp vibe. Instead of snake-men setting up shadow governments and savages burning the westmark, we've got rhyming goblins and ogres auditioning for Deliverance. The Sandpoint Devil was very good on that score, however, I'll grant you that. :)
• Has a crashed space ship somewhere on the world.
Heehee. :) Yup, that's Greyhawkish, no question.
• Built using the core assumptions, essentially, of first edition.
Not sure exactly what you mean by this. Race/class distribution? Cities and dungeons in close proximity? You round up your henchmen and go plunder the first level, then the survivors come back to town and train so they can level-up? ;)
• Lots of dungeons. The point of the world is a place in which to set adventures. Adventures drive the world.
I assume this is one of the first edition assumptions you're referring to?
• Has Vikings.
W00t! I hadn't seen those. :)
• I like both of them a lot.
I can't argue with that one. ;) Nor do I want to, particularly. I would expect you to! :D
-The Gneech
Do they come from the land of ice and snow, from the midnight sun where the hot springs blow?
For sure. And their only goal will be the western shore.
I'm buying Pathfinder, the GM Modules and the other stuff as it comes out because I want Golarian, not a disguised Greyhawk.I'm writing for Pathfinder and Pathfinder Chronicles because I want Golarion, not a disguised Greyhawk. :D
I'm not hoping for a "disguised Greyhawk" but rather "in the same vein as Greyhawk." The same way that Forgotten Realms in many ways is closer to Tolkien than it is to Greyhawk, I was hoping for a setting that was closer to Greyhawk than it was other settings, if that makes any sense.
-The Gneech
Nice try, Prett. But all the stuff I stole from you got published ages ago. Flumph Nebula was pure "Kazavaughan Enterprises." And I've got the original handwritten manuscript to prove it (you'll just have to ignore the white-out on the byline).Now then Kaza.
And I think you'll find it was OUR idea for clonebots of the flumph nebula, whch was due to be the first part of our purple temple of the titanic flumph of doom trilogy...alas, the best laid plans...
Well this is just outrageous Kaza - you'll be saying tammeraut's fate was all your own work next...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Am I missing it or are these guys do a good job of avoiding associating skin and hair colour with culture and behaviour in a way that is unimaginatively racist?I'd say yes, but read the writeup on Seelah, the Paladin of Iomedae and come to your own conclusion. :)
Are you referring to the troubled past as a gangster before she was saved by some benevolent higher calling that she has in common with almost every other black superhero? Yeah, I can see that.
I was actually thinking of the broader world and countries as a whole. I'm hoping that we don't find jungle areas full of primitive dark-skinned savages; dark-haired and almond-shaped eyes on a people in Tian Xia with ninjas, monks, and samurai; and that Cheliaxians don't turn out to be Europeans.
When I've mentioned this kind of thing in the past the response has usually been "It's a fantasy world!". Well, if it is, let's be imaginative.
Anyhow, I like that Golarion seems to be developing without very 20th century Western ideas of a connection being made between skin color and character. Keep it up.
And are they kittens?
JV is an insane man. Not necessarily because of that - it was harmless - but I like to remind myself of this simple fact lest I forget it and lose some more sanity points when I next visit his site.
Anyway, this has made me want Catlord Vikings - Raiders of the Puss Sea (keep your mind out of the gutter, I'm still talking kittens here). I want wise sailors keeping catnip at hand at all times. I want sea reavers who really play with their victims. I want seam..cats that are so afraid of getting wet that they defend their ships with unrivaled ferocity!
I'd say make them normal pirates, but they'd keep eating the parrots.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Well, it would be fresh to see dark-skinned, advanced cultures in jungles, and epicanthic folded, olive-skinned people with innovative twists on Yupic cultures in Golarion's analogue of the frozen northlands, ...
...but my understanding of real-world racial characteristics is that they're adaptations to natural environments. Dark-skinned peoples should be found in equatorial countries. People who've adaptd to biting cold and snow-covered lands should have epicanthic folds. And possibly fur.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Well, it would be fresh to see dark-skinned, advanced cultures in jungles, and epicanthic folded, olive-skinned people with innovative twists on Yupic cultures in Golarion's analogue of the frozen northlands, ...
...but my understanding of real-world racial characteristics is that they're adaptations to natural environments. Dark-skinned peoples should be found in equatorial countries. People who've adaptd to biting cold and snow-covered lands should have epicanthic folds. And possibly fur.
Fair enough but if I can imagine that Golarion has Elves, Gnomes, Runelords, flesh-eating-ghouls, dragons, etc. than I can imagine that it has folate-rich plants and that humans in Golarion have adapted better folate absorption than in this world. :-)
It's funny though. I've brought this up on other boards and I get two responses: (1) "Hey, man. It's fantasy!" and (2) "But in the real-world...". Both responses are used to justify the same unimaginative stereotypes. Not that yours was doing this.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Fair enough but if I can imagine that Golarion has Elves, Gnomes, Runelords, flesh-eating-ghouls, dragons, etc. than I can imagine that it has folate-rich plants and that humans in Golarion have adapted better folate absorption than in this world. :-)
Yes, you can. And that makes sense, as long as it's explicit somewhere.
"There are various human sub-races throughout Golarion, and their racial characteristics may or may not match their environment because..." (add some flavorful magical reason here). Maybe the Cataclysm of the Fallen Titan changed the orbital paths of the sun and planets. Maybe it's the will of the gods that continents should wander; or that whenever two babies are born at the exact same moment, one out of every fifty pairs is magically swapped at birth.
But my policy has always been "fantasy is reality with certain very specific changes, and the consequences thereof."
I trust my imagination more than yours, I guess.
Oh, snap! Point, Erik.
I do not recall ever seeing anything that remotely implied Golarion was anything like Grewhawk. I do not get all the hate for any of the settings. I like elements of all of the major ones. I take what I like, ignore the rest. As Erik so elegantly implied, I guess my imagination just has a broader range.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I was actually thinking of the broader world and countries as a whole. I'm hoping that we don't find jungle areas full of primitive dark-skinned savages; dark-haired and almond-shaped eyes on a people in Tian Xia with ninjas, monks, and samurai; and that Cheliaxians don't turn out to be Europeans.Anyhow, I like that Golarion seems to be developing without very 20th century Western ideas of a connection being made between skin color and character. Keep it up.
Hmm. I'm going to be interested to see what you think of the final product, because there honestly _is_ some of that stuff that you don't seem to like. There are, for example, areas that are relatively clear analogues to Scandinavia, Asia, and Africa in the world. We've already revealed Osirion, which is pretty closely modeled on Ancient Egypt. The heartlands around Cheliax are largely populated by European types. We have some jungles filled with primitive dark-skinned folk (I wouldn't call them savages, though some residents of the world might).
All that said, I think your second point is even more important than your first, because we're not really tying elements of "character" to skin types (or at least not trying to). There are, for example, five or six kingdoms populated and ruled by "blacks," some of which are as civilized as any of the "white" nations. Some of these are loosely based on real-world cultures, but most of them are original. Or at least as original as we can make it.
We want to create a world where, fundamentally, real human players can chose human characters who look like them. The mythology of medieval Europe isn't exactly tapped out, but there are plenty of other cultures that work well with D&D that have seen relatively fewer adaptations, and we want to leave room for that in Golarion.
So, for example, the "Asia" area (which is on the opposite side of the world as Avistan, the continent on which Varisia is situated) certainly has samurais and ninja and wu-jen and stuff, but there might be non-asian masked killers who work exactly like ninja in other parts of the world that don't have much to do with Asia, just as there might be fighters in the Asian-themed parts of the world.
It's all rather tricky, and I suspect some of the analogues will be played closer than some people like (I'm thinking specifically of the Vikings and the Egyptians, here, since most of the nations do not have clear real world analogues). But Vikings and Egyptians are cool, at least in my view, and I wanted to include cultures based on them in the world.
That's all a long-winded way of saying that, superficially, the world is going to include some of the stuff you're criticizing. But it also contains a lot more that I think you will like, and we're definitely trying to avoid racism.
I think Golarion has the following things in common with Greyhawk:
• Cultures exist within a context, rather than a hodge-podge.
Are we talking about the same Greyhawk? The Flaeness is the hodge-podgiest place in gaming. Over here you've got some imperial Oeridians, up north of them you have some Suel barbarians who share heritage with the pale jungle barbarians to the south. Both of those races have intermingled across the rest of the continent except for those random pockets where the native Flan still live.
Oh, and let's put some dwarves and elves right there...and some more elves over here...and then we'll just sprinkle the orcs, hobgoblins and kobolds around the place to give everyone someone to fight.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Hmm. I'm going to be interested to see what you think of the final product, because there honestly _is_ some of that stuff that you don't seem to like. ...
I trust you.
You have consistantly produced products that are intelligent and creative and racist thinking, to my mind, is usually the opposite.
While I would expect that in a world shattered by cataclysms the populations would be a lot less homogeneous genetically than what you’ve described I’m not sure how far these ancient empires extended. Surely people moved around a bit as a result of both empire-building and its destruction.
I think you could have all the things you’ve described, though, and still have a world that isn’t racist if you avoid one culture being entirely negative and others being entirely positive. Every (human) culture should have some value. Also, all when you are creating cultures that are based on real world cultures, I’m sure that you would look at the way that culture understood itself and not what some ‘orientalist’ in London convinced everyone was true about them. Also, cultures were never as distinct we pretend. We talk about ‘multiculturalism’ like it is a new thing but that’s an illusion. Going town to town 400 years ago you’d experience language shift (My grampa insists he needed an interpreter to go from town to town in England when he was a kid). State schooling and mass media has reduced this. Cultures should exist within a context, rather than a hodge-podge. Where did I read this? hehehe
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I think Golarion has the following things in common with Greyhawk:
• Cultures exist within a context, rather than a hodge-podge.
Are we talking about the same Greyhawk? The Flaeness is the hodge-podgiest place in gaming. Over here you've got some imperial Oeridians, up north of them you have some Suel barbarians who share heritage with the pale jungle barbarians to the south. Both of those races have intermingled across the rest of the continent except for those random pockets where the native Flan still live.
Oh, and let's put some dwarves and elves right there...and some more elves over here...and then we'll just sprinkle the orcs, hobgoblins and kobolds around the place to give everyone someone to fight.
The Great Migrations (there's even a map!) give a pretty good idea of how each race ended up where it ended up. Yes, the races have intermixed in the last 5000 years, but at least they make sense within an historical context.
As opposed to, say, the Forgotten Realms, which has some black dudes over here, some fake Arabs over there, etc. I don't even think the human subraces of the Forgotten Realms had names until recently, and I still have a difficult time naming them.
--Erik