Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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This caught my eye on ENWorld:
We're planning to include a fully detailed "starting town" in the 4E DMG. It's a wonderful time-saver for DMs who need a ready-to-play town around which to base a D&D campaign. We tried something similar in the 3rd Edition DMG II with Saltmarsh, and we learned a lot from that experiment. The town we're thinking about for the 4E DMG is even more iconic than Saltmarsh. Can you guess what it is?
I can't think of any town more iconic than Homlet.
And, seeing as how this is as close to good news as we can get, let's take a moment to bask in it.
Um, I already own T1.
;)
It has to be a Forgotten Realms location. All Greyhawk references are pretty much out. Homlet is too cool for 4.0 anyway.
Chicago?
This caught my eye on ENWorld:
We're planning to include a fully detailed "starting town" in the 4E DMG. It's a wonderful time-saver for DMs who need a ready-to-play town around which to base a D&D campaign. We tried something similar in the 3rd Edition DMG II with Saltmarsh, and we learned a lot from that experiment. The town we're thinking about for the 4E DMG is even more iconic than Saltmarsh. Can you guess what it is?I can't think of any town more iconic than Homlet.
And, seeing as how this is as close to good news as we can get, let's take a moment to bask in it.
As others have said, it probably won't be a Greyhawk location, otherwise I'd agree with Hommlet. And since FR is the first campaign setting out...
I'd say Shadowdale. Its iconic FR to me, at least since the AD&D box set and all the elminster articles in Dragon.
The town in question will almost certainly be named Hommlet and it may even bear some resemblance to T1's locale physically, but you can be sure that it won't be Greyhawk's Hommlet. It'll be a "generic" Hommlet designed to work with the 4E rules, so poor old Jaroo Ashstaff will no longer be a druid (likely no druids in PHB I) and Turuko won't be a monk (ditto). Maybe Turuko will be a tiefling warlock now.
And, of course, there will be references to the Temple of Elemental Evil as well, since demons are now conceived of as corrupted elementals and thus the name finally makes sense, since, you know, it never did before (yes, this is sarcasm). Now that I think about it, I'm even more horrified. I'd not be the least bit surprised to see WotC do a 4E version of ToEE but a "generic" one tied to the goofy cosmology they've constructed.
Ugh.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'd say Shadowdale. Its iconic FR to me, at least since the AD&D box set and all the elminster articles in Dragon.
Wait...you think Shadowdale is more iconic than Saltmarsh?
Besides, FR is going to be a separate setting. It strikes me as odd that they would shore off a little piece and stuff it into the DMG, particularly given all the baggage that FR entails.
Can't say I agree, and I figured the teaser made it fairly obvious, but I guess not.
Edit: And damnitall, did I spell Homlet wrong?
I'd say Shadowdale. Its iconic FR to me, at least since the AD&D box set and all the elminster articles in Dragon.
Wait...you think Shadowdale is more iconic than Saltmarsh?
Besides, FR is going to be a separate setting. It strikes me as odd that they would shore off a little piece and stuff it into the DMG, particularly given all the baggage that FR entails.
Can't say I agree, and I figured the teaser made it fairly obvious, but I guess not.
Depends on their mindset for the DMG. The obliviously aren't going with a setting-neutral set of rules, and they aren't going with Greyhawk as the default anymore either.
What better way to hook people into buying the new FR Campaign Setting than to use Shadowdale (or another FR town) as the default in the DMG?
*And Saltmarsh... eh. Hommlet is far more iconic for Greyhawk.
I cant believe you guys have missed the obvious one.
Hello
Iconic is none other than
Menzoberranzan
*smirk*
I cant believe you guys have missed the obvious one.
Hello
Iconic is none other than
Menzoberranzan
*smirk*
lol
Drow should now be a core race ;-)
The obliviously aren't going with a setting-neutral set of rules, and they aren't going with Greyhawk as the default anymore either.
There's setting neutral and there's setting neutral. 4E looks like it won't be tied to a specific setting with lots of named kingdoms and NPCs and locales but it will have many meta-setting elements that will carry over from one setting to the next (sometimes with a bit of tweaking).
As for Greyhawk, it looks to me as if, to borrow a very tiresome phrase, 4E's meta-setting killed it and took its stuff. There are many, many formerly Greyhawk specific setting elements that are being nicked by 4E's generic implied setting. I'd not be the least surprised if Hommlet wound up being one of them, since it's really just an inconsequential little town at the edge of an area where evil is rising to power once more.
However, I'd bet good money that WotC R&D thinks that by using Hommlet -- and changing it beyond recognition -- they're paying "homage" to D&D's history. Heck, I expect we'll wind up with an e-Dragon article filled with reminiscences of the designers about how they all loved The Village of Hommlet as younger people and what an honor it is now to update it to the 21st century.
Mark my words.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Depends on their mindset for the DMG. The obliviously aren't going with a setting-neutral set of rules, and they aren't going with Greyhawk as the default anymore either.
Where do you get the idea they aren't going with a setting-neutral set of rules? Everything I've seen so far indicates that they are going with a setting neutral set of rules but, to the extent there is setting specific material (e.g., gods), that material is a hodge-podge of Greyhawk and some other places (the killed and take their stuff mentality which was also referenced above).
What better way to hook people into buying the new FR Campaign Setting than to use Shadowdale (or another FR town) as the default in the DMG?
Well, then why not use Sharn, since Eberron has been the favored child setting since its release?
*And Saltmarsh... eh. Hommlet is far more iconic for Greyhawk.
Homlet is far more iconic than any other town ever. Reread the quote - it doesn't make sense for the answer to be something other than the most iconic town.
Like I said, I think it's pretty obvious, but hey, stranger things have come out of wizards. They probably do mean Sharn.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I cant believe you guys have missed the obvious one.
Hello
Iconic is none other than
Menzoberranzan
*smirk*
Woot!!!
Notice how they've been hedging their bets when saying what races will be included. This also explains that blog post about how everyone will be a dual weapon wielder...
What about the Keep on the Borderlands?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm guessing Waterdeep, but if the core books are truly shooting for setting-neutral, then that's probably not it.
I don't think you could call Waterdeep a town. It's not really the small town village where most adventures begin...
What the hell is Homlet, anyway?
*avoids flames*
You realize this question is nearly the equivalent of "who the hell is Gary Gygax", right?
Homlet is the starting point for the Temple of Elemental Evil.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I'm guessing Waterdeep, but if the core books are truly shooting for setting-neutral, then that's probably not it.I don't think you could call Waterdeep a town. It's not really the small town village where most adventures begin...
This is certainly very, very true. I think, with the possible exception of Ptolus and Sigil, Waterdeep is the most populous city ever created in a D&D setting.
What the hell is Homlet, anyway?
*avoids flames*
You realize this question is nearly the equivalent of "who the hell is Gary Gygax", right?
Homlet is the starting point for the Temple of Elemental Evil.
I figured that much. You also have to understand that I have never, ever, ever played in a pre-written module in my 12+ years of gaming. Thanks for the info.
What about the Keep on the Borderlands?
I think David W. has hit the nail on the head square on. It dovetails into the 'points o' light' stuff that's been barfed up...
Fatespinner ... oh, with the right GM my man, 'pre-fab' can be just as much fun - and a heck of a lot less work - than home-brew.
As a general rule, I grant that homebrew can be better in quality ... but the time investment required ... eesh.
Well, then why not use Sharn, since Eberron has been the favored child setting since its release?Because it's only a matter of time before the Eberron bubble bursts and it joins all those dead AD&D settings.
Another red-headed stepchild of a setting indeed...
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For the sake of argument, maybe it is Waterdeep.
Waterdeep after a Spellplague, orc horde, and general apocalypse reset.
Who knows, maybe Waterdeep is now a cozy, muddy backwater of a harbor village now...word is there is whole ruined city underneath 'ol farmer Durnan IV's pumpkin patch!
I hope this drips with the sarcasm I intended.
As a grognard, even one who is not completely averse to change, I must admit that seeing my beloved Hommlet 'reinvented' for 4th edition in a shabby nod to the original would be hard to stomach.
I know what it is...
*ahem*
"You find yourself in the town of Baldur's Gate..."
Actually, wouldn't it be ironic if it was Sasserine, Cauldron, Farshore or Diamond Lake? Afterall, the work has already been done, just update some NPC stats to 4th Ed and your done.
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Actually, Fatespinner's question about "Homlet" is perfectly valid, Sebastion. Now, if you had titled the Thread, "Hommlet..." then maybe he wouldn't have to ask, but...
Honestly, Fatey, when you asked I thought you were ribbing Sebastion for speling it wrong.
I think Hommlet is less iconic than Saltmarsh -- though by precious little. "The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh" takes place in Saltmarsh and is one of the greatest of all time. ToEE is among THE greatest of all time but Hommlet is just the village nearby. In 1E it was even two separate adventures. Hommlet was creepy 1978. It was, what, '85 that ToEE finally came out -- D&D was different by then; you can't call it a true sequal to Hommlet.
Nonetheless, I have to agree with Sebastion's original sentiments: 4E will start in Hommlet AND this is the first good thing WotC has done yet. But I admittedly hope that it happens the way a number of people have predicted here, that it will be a washed up, pathetic, drivel of a generic town when they get through with it.
Look what they did to Ravenloft! Man, what happened to Chris Perkins and Bruce Cordell?
-W. E. Ray
I'd love it if it was Hommlet, except that I'd hate to see what they would do to it... Unless they are going Greyhawk, full bore, I'd rather they just left it alone.
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I agree with Sebastian, that it will most likely be Hommlet. That seems to fit the bill of a small “starting town” that is more iconic than Saltmarsh. And I doubt they will choose something from either FR or Eberron in the core book, so as not to alienate fans of the setting not chosen if nothing else.
I’m also wary of Hommlet getting the 4E/WotC treatment, or of having this iconic Greyhawk element cut and pasted into the new generic setting. But perhaps if nothing else it will inspire a few new gamers to look into the roots of the place, and discover the original adventures and the Greyhawk setting? (Trying to be optimistic…)
Fatespinner ... oh, with the right GM my man, 'pre-fab' can be just as much fun - and a heck of a lot less work - than home-brew.
Oh I don't know. I have 'winged it' my entire GMing career and never had complaints. No module. No prep. Just reacting to the PCs.
Granted, you need pro-active players who create characters with more ambition than killing things and taking their stuff...but that is an entirely different thread.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I doubt it will be Hommlet. My vote is for Threshold.
Yeah, nothing says iconic like a city you can't even pull up using google. I got a ton of hits for Homlet and I spelled it wrong.
At the risk of pulling a Fatespinner, what is Threshold?
Edit: Ah, there it is, on page 2 of a google search for "Threshold and D&D" It's an FR village in a video game. Doesn't exactly scream iconic.
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I reckon it should be Sandpoint.
Though if not Sandpoint, then it's almost certain to be Hommlet. After seeing all the praise Sandpoint received here, I'm sure they'll want to jump on the bandwagon with Hommlet featuring Burne and Rufus.
After all, if Sandpoint is amazing!, we all know Hommlet is faaabulous!
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I think Hommlet is less iconic than Saltmarsh -- though by precious little. "The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh" takes place in Saltmarsh and is one of the greatest of all time. ToEE is among THE greatest of all time but Hommlet is just the village nearby. In 1E it was even two separate adventures. Hommlet was creepy 1978. It was, what, '85 that ToEE finally came out -- D&D was different by then; you can't call it a true sequal to Hommlet.
-W. E. Ray
I would have to disagree for the simple reason that Saltmarsh was never much more than a name and a brief description. Hommlet was described, mapped, keyed, populated, and brought to life in T1. It actually took up more space than the adventure did.
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Of the three rulebooks, the PHB is an experience shared by all players, the MM is full of cool monsters, but for me, the DMG is too often overlooked, like the instruction manual to your VCR, it's the last thing you want to read before jumping into your first game.
Whatever town they use, I think this is a good move by WotC. One of my fondest memories of opening my very first D&D boxed set was the Keep on the Borderlands adventure. Particularly for new players, it puts something cool back into the DMG, a reason to read it, an example setting you can base home-grown adventures from.
Saltmarsh was probably a good inclusion in DMGII, but I must admit to not having given it much of a look, DMGII isn't a book I reference much. It would have received a lot more prominence if featured in the core DMG.
It probably won't be all that necessary for experienced players, and new players are probably better served by a D&D Basic boxed set. But hopefully the inclusion of a classic village from D&D's past will help make the DMG more accessable to newcomers to the hobby, and less a barrier to play.
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I'd agree that the most likely choice is Hommlet, though some other possibilities sprang to mind:
Solace
Bryn Shander (these two if they want to attract more fans of the novels to the game)
Brindenford (because it's by James Wyatt and featured in several 3e products).
I guess I'm hoping for Hommlet.
After all, if Sandpoint is amazing!, we all know Hommlet is faaabulous!
Needs more gays.
At the risk of pulling a Fatespinner, what is Threshold?
Major City from the Expert rule book. D&D Blue Box set. Early 80's I think.
Chicago?
You wish!
Threshold sounds right to me, too. It's the "home town" from the red/blue box D&D era. Not a major city though,, that was Specularum. Maybe it's even Specularum? Bringing back the Known World would be cool.
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I am replaying the Temple of Elemental Evil with a brand new party and it is a blast.
Hommlet is superb. We ran an attack on the village in my mate's garage using terrain blocks, an Inn and plenty of goblins, trees etc. (The lack of squares improved the game for us because it cut out so much of the chat about AoOs).
But for me the moment that summed up DnD for me was finding a pencilled note on the first dungeon level of the moathouse showing that the last time I had run this adventure was 28 years ago.
Fatey I recommend buying the PDF off Paizo and taking a good look at it. But perhaps there are too many good games and paths to run already?
Cheers
Look what they did to Ravenloft!
Hey, now, there's an idea...
Contributor
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Bear in mind too, that some of us geezers had T1: The Village of Hommlet that included the village and the moathouse, long before T1-4 ever came out. And you could run a complex adventure just in the town; there was a lot of detail about the various residents and their private motives and histories. I had actually given up on T2 ever seeing the light long before the ToEE was released.
There is part of me that would be excited about Hommlet being the iconic town, and it is just about as iconic as you can get for me. In fact T1 was the first D&D product I owned personally. But I also remember reading the location description and marking it on my map of Greyhawk, and there were so many references there to Greyhawk events, that I'd rather keep Hommlet in Greyhawk. Plus, Hommlet has already had a makeover in RttToEE. If they did make it their iconic town, I'd prefer it be more like the original.
But as someone mentioned, the other iconic town with lots of background potential that fits with the points of light theme and has no particular setting associations is from the second D&D product I owned: The Keep on the Borderlands. It did get some revision under 2E, but I don't recall anything under 3E. Does anyone recall if this was ever placed in a game world, and if so, was it a retrofit? I only ever played the updated Keep on the Borderlands, I never read it, and we got TPK'd so we never played the whole thing. But to my recollection, it was mostly the Caves of Chaos that got upgraded (but maybe we just skipped through it because we were trying to play the whole damned adventure in one weekend marathon).
Personally, what I'd like to see souped up are the two towns from the L series, Bone Hill and Assassin's knot. The names escape me at the moment, and I make no pretense that they are as iconic as Hommlet or the Keep, but for me, they are up there with Saltmarsh. And while they are Greyhawk, my impression (Greyhawk fans, please don't kill me) was that Len Lakafka(sp?) stuck them on as remote an area that he could claim to be civilized so that they would be independent of the rest of the setting. But they too had the 'points of light' flavour going. Here are two towns, far enough apart that you'll have to camp to travel between them, and you'd better hope you don't meet anything on the road, because it's all awful. I loved those adventures.
I'd say it's definitely either Hommlet or The Keep, and I hope it's the Keep. I love Hommlet, but it belongs to Greyhawk.