For those DM's that have already played the adventure, or those in the midst of the adventure, at what point have you decided to level up the PC's from 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, and possibly 4th.
With Burnt Offerings, I am thinking a level up after the Glassworks, and after Catacombs, at what level have most PC’s arrived at Thistletop?
How many DM’s “level up” during any adventure say generic room 1 to generic room 5 while of level 2, because the next encounter may prove too challenging for the current PC levels? I have always played leveling up as an after event occurrence, while the PC’s are resting and reflecting on their accomplishments/failures; and upon this reflection the learned experiences cumulate into a level if XP points do so indicate (opinions and other house rules welcomed and sought).
Does not Malfeshnekor appear to be a rather destructive challenge a group of approximately third level group?
+19 melee: Bite (2d6+16/x2) and +14 melee: 2 Claws (1d6+12/x2)
What a killer!
Creative Director
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In my games, I give out XP at the end of every session. PCs level up whenever they get enough XP, no matter where they're at. If you follow that pattern, and if the PCs do EVERYTHING in Burnt Offerings, they'll probably almost be 5th level when they get to Malfeshnekor.
Which is by design. Remember, just because Malfeshnekor is in "Burnt Offerings" doesn't mean the PCs have to defeat him before they start "Skinsaw Murders." ALSO: He can't chase PCs down. He can't even follow them out of his room, and has relatively little ranged capability. If lower level PCs race into his room and fight him in melee... well... they get what they get.
Great. James, teach me how to make a spoiler - I failed miserably!
Well, I would imagine the spoiler tag is similar to other message board tags...
Start with [ spoiler ], and end with [ /spoiler ] (Without any spaces.)
Yep, works for me.
NOTE: After rereading, the post can be read as more sarcastic than I intended it. I can't think of how to remove the sarcasm from the tone, so just take my word for it. It isn't meant as sarcastic. ;-)
James,
During your sessions does leveling up in the midst of the adventure no matter where they are - not bring the game to a screeching halt? Especially when new feats and new special abilities come into play.
My own experience, when a level is indicated for a PC and said PC gains a special ability or a new feat, books come flying out and a customary perusal of "oh now that is a neat feat, or how about that one…I don't have the prerequisite for that…and so on - has been the standard.
Granted I am fairly new to 3.5 (about two years, and we really botched a lot of the first learning year), so I may not have an intimate and sagely knowledge of all the game rules and nuances. I like to buy a lot of the books and give them to the players to use and broaden their PC's; we kind of get “kid in the candy store” fervor at times. How long does your leveling up usually take, minutes? Ours tend to go into hours when the entire group gains a level.
Thanks.
During your sessions does leveling up in the midst of the adventure no matter where they are - not bring the game to a screeching halt? Especially when new feats and new special abilities come into play.
Well, James (as well as many DMs) doesn't hand out XP until the end of the session.
That means the players have time between that session and the next to figure out what adjustments they want to make.
Very few DMs allow leveling in the middle of a session, and those that do usually have players that plan their next advancements ahead of time.
But, YMMV.
Like James, I give XP at the end of each session, no matter where in a given dungeon the end of the session happens to fall. The players usually level their characters either directly after the end of the session, between sessions on their own time, or (occasionally) at the beginning of the next session, they never level-up mid-session.
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James,
During your sessions does leveling up in the midst of the adventure no matter where they are - not bring the game to a screeching halt? Especially when new feats and new special abilities come into play.
My own experience, when a level is indicated for a PC and said PC gains a special ability or a new feat, books come flying out and a customary perusal of "oh now that is a neat feat, or how about that one…I don't have the prerequisite for that…and so on - has been the standard.
I run marathon sessions (it isn't unusual for us to go through 1 and 1/2 adventure path adventures in one session) so even waiting to the end of the session is too long. I solved this by having players bring 3 character sheets with them at the beginning of the adventure. Their current one plus what they think they are going to have at the next two levels. For Roleplay purposes, there are many times that I, as a real life black belt, misunderstood things until they were done to me, so there is good reason why melee types would gain abilities mid adventure. Similarly, as a computer programmer may times you can study and know the idea of how code works, but must play with it before you can actually use these theories effectively, and this learning time you can FUBAR entire computers and work environments. I could see magic being similar, but if you screw up you can't reset the world around you. Therefore the time for experiment is away from home, where innocents won't get hurt.
Ah ha! Thanks Disenchanter that worked.
I detected no sarcasm in your response and am grateful for your tutelage. My message board experience is nil, I have only ever posted with Paizo and am unfamiliar with the use of BBCodes, until now.
Thanks again. One reason I post and visit these boards with such regularity is the wonderful on-line community I have found, the wealth of ideas and imagination that frequents these boards and the great products that Paizo produces.
I also like the XP responses; I also favor leveling up at a point break and not during the adventure.
I've begun completely outlining xp for each encounter and noting exactly when players should level up. This allows me to time xp awards more accurately to allow for level up work to happen either after or before the game. I only play for maybe 3 hours or so max at a time, so this allows for that stuff to happen at a much more convenient time.
I detected no sarcasm in your response...
Really?
I must be slipping. :-P
OK, I did just then.
Just throwing in my two cents . . . I usually give xp out at the end of each encounter, or at the end of a string of related encounters. But, I don't allow pc's to level up until they get some "Down Time" . . and no, that doesn't include camping out in the middle of a dungeon, usually it entails exiting the dungeon to go back to town with the baggit&taggit list for a liquidation run.
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I find that some dungeons are just too big and many of them have points of no return that this mythical "down time" is a bad policy.
I've heard it argued that "down time" means the characters have time to study, seek out a trainer, or whatever. Not necessarily a bad argument but this is how I feel...
If you know how to do something, you learn to do it well only by doing it. You get better AS you do it. There's 2-3 day lag in getting better at something in reality.
Hence why I give out XP at the end of the session, let them level up after the session or before the beginning of the next one. I've converted a few DMs I know into it too. The last DM I played with finally realized that waiting on such things is detrimental to the progress of the adventure.. particularly when characters are fighting the big bad and aren't the level they need to be to fight it because they haven't had "down time."
Oops, I just killed more then half the party because of a silly house rule.
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Creative Director
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James,
During your sessions does leveling up in the midst of the adventure no matter where they are - not bring the game to a screeching halt? Especially when new feats and new special abilities come into play.
Nope; becaue I hand out XP at the end of a session. They then have a week or two (or however long we have between sessions) to level up their characters. The game already came to a screeching halt becasue we're done for the day. :)
I see, and I like.
So your session ends, you calculate and determine XP, call it a day and next session if Amax the Fighter ended with enough XP to begin the next playing session at a higher level - he does so.
Do you find any conflicts with wizards or clerics that suddenly gain a new spell level (such as the ability to suddenly cast or gain access to third level spells) without some form of study or devotional time? Just curious how you (and others) handle such a boon.
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Do you find any conflicts with wizards or clerics that suddenly gain a new spell level (such as the ability to suddenly cast or gain access to third level spells) without some form of study or devotional time? Just curious how you (and others) handle such a boon.
While I can't answer for James, I can give you my views as I handle XP in the same manner. I just consider that wizards and clerics are continuously doing their studies/devotions (for instance, wiz understands arcane theory better with each preparation and casting and the cleric gives himself more fully to his faith each time he channel his god's power--and/or variation thereupon).
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*nods*
Like Azzy I don't see anything wrong with that.
You have to realize something, with clerics, they KNOW their whole spell list. They don't have to find spells. In a manner of speaking, divine scrolls are kinda silly... a cleric/paladin could just be saying a generic prayer asking his/her god for more power, to weaken his foes, to destroy this evil, to aid in some way and the god answers with spell X. Divine scrolls, that's just channeling magic to create spell X, just like a Wizard or Sorcerer channels magic to create spell X with a scroll. Same theory goes for Paladins, Druids, and Rangers. They don't research spells, they don't write them down.
Sorcerers wield magic by brute force, or that's how I like to think of them. They find a way to make magic produce X effect, doing what Wizards take great lengths to accomplish.
Finally Wizards, here's the thing about Wizards. Wizards are supposed to be genius, so isn't it possible, even likely that a Wizard is doing research, thinking about arcane theory, etc whenever and where ever he/she is? Sitting there drinking a mug of ale, thinking about spellcasting. Having a good time with a wench, thinking about magic... well a different type of magic anyway lol. Spell research isn't a time consuming thing for Wizards anymore, they either have the discipline or they don't to cast spells. Go back to the PHB and Tome and Blood. Identifying and mastering the spells in an acquired spellbook isn't nearly as difficult as creating magic items for a Wizard.
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Creative Director
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I see, and I like.
So your session ends, you calculate and determine XP, call it a day and next session if Amax the Fighter ended with enough XP to begin the next playing session at a higher level - he does so.
Do you find any conflicts with wizards or clerics that suddenly gain a new spell level (such as the ability to suddenly cast or gain access to third level spells) without some form of study or devotional time? Just curious how you (and others) handle such a boon.
I have no conflicts with wizards or clerics suddenly being able to cast new spells. They don't automatically gain the new spells in their spell slots, though, and need to rest to prepare them. Sorcerers, bards, and others who cast on the fly have a definite advantage there since they WOULD gain the additional spells on the spot. And that doesn't bother me at all. Especially since I usually time things so that a game ends at a natural break point anyway. Ending a session in the middle of a series of encounters is no good, since it breaks up the momentum.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I have no conflicts with wizards or clerics suddenly being able to cast new spells. They don't automatically gain the new spells in their spell slots, though, and need to rest to prepare them. Sorcerers, bards, and others who cast on the fly have a definite advantage there since they WOULD gain the additional spells on the spot. And that doesn't bother me at all. Especially since I usually time things so that a game ends at a natural break point anyway. Ending a session in the middle of a series of encounters is no good, since it breaks up the momentum.
I treat the new slots as "fresh", which allows clerics and wizards to take 15 minutes to prepare spells in their new slots. This would also make the slots available for a spontaneous caster as well, of course.
I usually hand out XP at the end of each session, but not exactly at the table. More often than not, we wrap things up just when it's about time to leave. I've also found that it's better to play the extra 15 minutes than to calculate XP. I hand out XP via mail, which gives me more time to reflect on how much they really deserved, or how much they should have, according to what power level I want them at for the next adventure.
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Like some of the others above, I hand out XP at the end of the night's session, and generally end the session at a natural break such as after completing the glassworks, or the Catacombs of Wrath, etc.
I generally only dole out XP by what the PC's actually earned per the rules. I don't base it off of what I "feel" they should have earned nor what power level I want them to be at the next session.
The players determine their own XP, I just keep tally.
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Creative Director
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I guess I'm a little different. I rarely track xp points from kills/encounters. We tend to run an adventure and grant levels at natural down time break points. Typically after they complete something significant (module boss etc) We just always done it by feel. I have not read enough of Burnt Offerings to know where I would break out the levels.
Pikup
In this case, I'd hand out XP after the initial goblin raid, after the glassworks, after the catacombs of wrath (even if the PCs don't shut down the runewell), after they defeat Chief Ripnugget, and after they defeat Nualia.
Like some of the others above, I hand out XP at the end of the night's session, and generally end the session at a natural break such as after completing the glassworks, or the Catacombs of Wrath, etc.
I generally only dole out XP by what the PC's actually earned per the rules. I don't base it off of what I "feel" they should have earned nor what power level I want them to be at the next session.
The players determine their own XP, I just keep tally.
Had the CR-system not been so fundamentally flawed, I would have done the same as well. That a 14th level bard is CR 14, and an advanced mezzoloth CR 11 is.. well.. horrible.
I don't suppose anyone has a break-down of how much xp a party of 4 would have at each of the points James mentioned? (Initial raid, Glassworks, Catacombs of Wrath, Chief Ripnugget, Nualia)? (Assuming they complete every single encounter)
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I don't suppose anyone has a break-down of how much xp a party of 4 would have at each of the points James mentioned? (Initial raid, Glassworks, Catacombs of Wrath, Chief Ripnugget, Nualia)? (Assuming they complete every single encounter)
I've almost finished that breakdown, but it's turning out a little... weird. Those breakpoints aren't really where the levels fall, and in at least one case (the glassworks) might well result in your players rising up in revolt...
Edit: okay, here it is.
Raid: 450
Glassworks: 975*
Catacombs: 2325
Ripnugget: 5401*
Nualia: 8252*
Malfeshnekor: 10,052*
*assumed leveling point
In addition, a character who successfully handled Shayliss would have an additional 600 xp, and a party that shut down the runewell, faced the optional goblin patrol (mentioned on pg. 32) and took the time to kill the bunyip would have an additional 225 xp, 150 xp and 225 xp respectively.
Just for the record, if all of the "standard" encounters and none of the optional ones are used, the PCs will hit 3000 xp (and thus be eligible for level 3) just before facing Gogmurt - if I were looking for good places to level without worrying about the details, I'd suggest leveling right after the glassworks (to avoid your players killing you for the 25 xp they need) and then after defeating Gogmurt, rather than waiting until after facing down Ripnugget. YMMV, naturally.
In this case, I'd hand out XP after the initial goblin raid, after the glassworks, after the catacombs of wrath (even if the PCs don't shut down the runewell), after they defeat Chief Ripnugget, and after they defeat Nualia.
I would REALLY like these suggestions throughout each adventure, perhaps even in the foreword or adventure synopsis. It would add a small amount to the word count, but would be great for those (like me) that never bother to track XP.
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Creative Director
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In this case, I'd hand out XP after the initial goblin raid, after the glassworks, after the catacombs of wrath (even if the PCs don't shut down the runewell), after they defeat Chief Ripnugget, and after they defeat Nualia.I would REALLY like these suggestions throughout each adventure, perhaps even in the foreword or adventure synopsis. It would add a small amount to the word count, but would be great for those (like me) that never bother to track XP.
That's a pretty good suggestion. The earliest we can do so is Pathfinder 4 at this point, but I'll drop something in from that point on, probably in the Adventure Synopsis.
But a good way to estimate things until then is to just to level up the PCs 1/3 and 2/3 and 3/3 the way through the first 3 adventures. So for Burnt Offerings, that'd happen after the Glassworks, after the top level of Thistletop, and probably after Nualia's defeated (even if... ESPECIALLY if... Malfeshnekor's still up and about).
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I have no conflicts with wizards or clerics suddenly being able to cast new spells. They don't automatically gain the new spells in their spell slots, though, and need to rest to prepare them. Sorcerers, bards, and others who cast on the fly have a definite advantage there since they WOULD gain the additional spells on the spot. And that doesn't bother me at all. Especially since I usually time things so that a game ends at a natural break point anyway. Ending a session in the middle of a series of encounters is no good, since it breaks up the momentum.
With the known lethality of APs I tend to give it out after each fight (already knowing the math ahead of time for each encounter) and my players generally already know exactly what they're doing next level.
As for spont casters, they don't get their extra spells per day until after rest, though they do learn new spells on the fly, makes for some good roleplaying situations where they shoot out their next spell without their character really knowing what it is =p
In this case, I'd hand out XP after the initial goblin raid, after the glassworks, after the catacombs of wrath (even if the PCs don't shut down the runewell), after they defeat Chief Ripnugget, and after they defeat Nualia.
I would REALLY like these suggestions throughout each adventure, perhaps even in the foreword or adventure synopsis. It would add a small amount to the word count, but would be great for those (like me) that never bother to track XP.
That's a pretty good suggestion. The earliest we can do so is Pathfinder 4 at this point, but I'll drop something in from that point on, probably in the Adventure Synopsis.
I think this is also a great suggestion, and I'll be watching for the notes in Pathfinder 4! (I do bother checking XP but it's always a time-consuming chore that takes away from game time.)
I deal out the XP after a rest period of at least 1 night of rest.
I have trained my players to think ahead and have the next level ready. it's a real incentive, if they aren't ready they have to wait till the next time we play. It means that the other players who are ready give them a hard time, because they're not powerful enough.
Generally it only happens once!
In my homebrew, I've been generally awarding xp after each fight. If the group levels up, they generally retreat to home base because they don't just suddenly heal and get access to the new hit points.
As far as wizards go, in regard to the free spells they get each time they level, I just assume the spells are already there in theoretical format in their books and when they level up they experience the mental breakthrough to use them.
Like most people, I tend to give out XP at the end of a session, allowing the players a week or so to make the necessary adjustments. Also the immediate award then facilitates the rolling of new hit points in the arena of players, where all can cheer a good roll, or moan the barbarian's third "three".
Occasionally, when the adventures I run do not end on a convenient break point, or when the PCs come to an encounter early, I may award XP in the middle of a session, but then I was spoiled by having players who mapped out their characters 15 levels in advance, and usually had two back-up characters similarly mapped, with a list of desired adn appropriate gear (more the former, less the latter). With players like that, leveling up in game usually took only as long as fixing the meal/getting the snacks.