And this is why I'll never buy Pathfinder.
A rather extreme statement, particularly since we haven't seen the context of the articles in which Mr. Hunter's art will be placed. Did you also never buy Dungeon because of one artist? Or maybe shunned a magazine because of one author, for that matter?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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DMILF's post is a little suspect.
For one, this is his first and only post on the boards, second - what's wrong with Kyle's art? I like it.
Even if you aren't keen on it, it's one artist in a great publication - so why choose to not even give it a chance because of something so miniscule?
Sounds like a troll come to spread his filth.
Edit: Well, ok I retract the above - SOMEWHAT - his alter ego is Jaws and has a few posts under his belt.
Still, why such a harsh reaction??
I'll take the bait...
I love Kyle's artwork! I can't wait to see what the "secret projects" are.
I love Kyle's drawings.. I'm actually relieved to hear they're keeping him onboard with the Pathfinder stuff! :)
Kyle lovers represent.
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And this is why I'll never buy Pathfinder.I'll still buy Paizo products, but I have to agree that I have a severe dislike for anything related to, or even remotely resembling japanimation. Especially when it mucks up my fantasy gaming.
Not sure how Kyle Hunter's artwork resembles 'japanimation'. The style is indisputably 'cartoonish', but it doesn't particularly remind me of 'japanimation'. (As opposed to some of the other artwork which arguably does provide more of a nod to the anime style). Others may disagree with me here.
Also, not sure how having this artwork accompanying the introduction pages to the adventures 'mucks up' your fantasy gaming? Could you explain that?
Yeah, Burnt Offerings has solely one piece by Kyle Hunter. I suspect #2 will be the same way.
Frankly, I love his stuff. It's busy, chaotic and fun. Just the way D&D ought to be.
Not sure how Kyle Hunter's artwork resembles 'japanimation'. The style is indisputably 'cartoonish', but it doesn't particularly remind me of 'japanimation'. (As opposed to some of the other artwork which arguably does provide more of a nod to the anime style). Others may disagree with me here.
Nah, you're 100% right... I've never understood why some people think all cartoony art falls under the "manga" or "japanimation" category.
Next thing ya know, people will be calling Popeye and Mickey Mouse manga.
The...art...is stopping you?
I could see if it was like, lewd depictions of debauchery, but...too cartoony?
It's not as if you are buying "The Art of Pathfinder" book.
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And this is why I'll never buy Pathfinder.I'll still buy Paizo products, but I have to agree that I have a severe dislike for anything related to, or even remotely resembling japanimation. Especially when it mucks up my fantasy gaming.
*setting you on fire with my mind*
I swear, next someone's gonna say that Picasso's work resembles anime/manga. Ugh!
I really just hate all drawings because they use they same medium as manga and I barely tolerate pictures and paintings. I'm still not sure about other forms of art. I think sculptures and poetry are starting to seem a little too much like anime to tolerate.
DMILF is a funny screen name.Personally, I wouldn't, not when he looks like Orcus.
I've been trying so hard to read it as anything else.
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I really just hate all drawings because they use they same medium as manga and I barely tolerate pictures and paintings. I'm still not sure about other forms of art. I think sculptures and poetry are starting to seem a little too much like anime to tolerate.
What about writing? Don't forget that. There's writing in some o them manga comics, having writing in Pathfinder just totally reminds me of manga. I'm only going to buy Pathfinder if it's just all blank pages with no text or artwork. Wait! They have pages in them manga comic books! No pages in Pathfinder either thanks. [/facetious]
I've been trying so hard to read it as anything else.DMILF is a funny screen name.Personally, I wouldn't, not when he looks like Orcus.
Sorry man. Think that's it.
I don't want to necessarily associate myself with DMILF's post as I am not sure I share the sentiment. That said, I dislike the artwork in question here as well. Unlike his comment I am happy to subscribe and were the art to even be absent would not cause me to not subscribe. That said, I believe that the cartoony artwork drags down the quality of the product.
I am NOT calling this manga or anything else. It is a unique and distinctive style that the artist has developed and I applaud him for having his own style. It works great in his own cartoon like Downer or in comic stylings which is how I took his work in Dungeon.
In Pathfinder, however, I disappointed at the choice of this artwork as it was not used as in Dungeon but in the adventure and background. This means that I do not feel comfortable showing this artwork to my players which has been something that has been a HUGE success with other Paizo adventures.
For whatever my vote is worth, I would prefer that artwork that is a comic representation of your creatures or characters should not be included. It gives a much less serious feel to things. Compare the pictures of all other artists goblins to his, which is a fine in and of itself but lends a VERY different feel to the subject matter than other artists. As a result... it is a big break from the feel and flow of an otherwise excellent product.
Please understand that this is not an attack on the artist, he is fine, I just don't think the style is fitting with the rest of the product.
Sean Mahoney
I swear, next someone's gonna say that Picasso's work resembles anime/manga. Ugh!
O, please! Guernica is such an obvious rip-off of Tagosaku to Mokube no Tokyo Kenbutsu.
Chuck Norris has the greatest Poker-Face of all time. He won the 1983 World Series of Poker, despite holding only a Joker, a Get out of Jail Free Monopoloy card, a 2 of clubs, 7 of spades and a green #4 card from the game UNO.
How do you NOT win with a Giggly-Green-Key, 27 high? That's the nuts.
Now while I usually don't get in the middle of a forums flame strike, as it's usually very juvinile...yeah you heard me heh.
I will say this. If you turn down a book, and yes Pathfinder Chronicles is a book not a magazine, because of one artists artwork, which appears I believe only once in each issue. You've got problems. In a sense you are telling James Jacobs, Jason Bulhman, Erik Mona, and everyone else at Paizo that they don't matter.
Their hard work doesn't matter at all. The long hours they put in, the countless conversations with fans, answering questions and listening to childish rants about what they want. You throw all that away just because of one simple artist whos work you don't like.
That's pretty sad, and childish. It seems all we do as players is take take take from Paizo and other companies. But lets just consentrate on Paizo Publishing. How about we stop demanding things, and just taking from them, and for a moment say thank you or give them a cookie or something.
That goes the same for the artists, so you don't like the art big whoop. Don't look at it then, or if you can do better (and for the most part i'd like to see you try) then submit something to the boards and say "Here's an optional piece of art you can use instead." much like how DM G (sorry if I got the handle wrong) has done.
I think the little cartoony art is great for what it's being used for. An intro piece, brings humor to the game. Without humor you wont always have fun. And for those of you out there who claim Wayne Reynolds artwork is to Anime-like....let me suggest you go and actually watch an anime and then get some glasses.
Okay, enough of my rant as I'm sure people will now have to spend time taking my opinion apart and try to bring me down for it.
Paizo writers, artists, publishers, and staff. THANK YOU for the wonderful work you are doing. Keep it up, and here's a cookie. Okay Jason you can have a beer and cheese.
-Potantsuem
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I am NOT calling this manga or anything else. It is a unique and distinctive style that the artist has developed and I applaud him for having his own style. It works great in his own cartoon like Downer or in comic stylings which is how I took his work in Dungeon.
In Pathfinder, however, I disappointed at the choice of this artwork as it was not used as in Dungeon but in the adventure and background. This means that I do not feel comfortable showing this artwork to my players which has been something that has been a HUGE success with other Paizo adventures.
Sean Mahoney
I believe that Kyle Hunter only did the goblin on the Introduction page and that the drawings in the background information and adventure sections were done by different artists.
I didn't like Downer, but think the mini-monsters are rather cute. And used on the Intro pages, I think they give those pages a casual, conversational style, which may be what the editors were going for.
Looking at the blog post, it appears that he'll only have the one illustration in Pathfinder, and the cartoony art from the first issue is going away. So I think it will make Intro page style stand out more (for me in a good way).
Creative Director
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We've heard LOUD and CLEAR that a lot of our readers dislike cartoony art. We've also heard very little in defense of that art style. And guess what? When you get Pathfinder 2, you'll see the results.
In this case, thoguh, this change was not something that was pushed by reader reaction. We ordered all the art for Pathfinder 2 well before Pathfinder 1 even came out; Pathfinder 1 had a criminally tight schedule since we are also producing 2 magazines and preparing for Gen Con at the same time. And that goes for our artists as well, remember.
As early as Pathfinder 2, we have had more time to work on the book. Our artists have more time as well. And the result is pretty cool. We posted some of the art for Pathfinder 2 a few days ago to show off some of the art we'll be printing.
Kyle Hunter will continue to be a part of Pathfinder as well. His monsters will be illustrating the Forewords and the preview section at the back, but at this point we won't be illustrating adventures with them. We do have him working on something pretty awesome though that I can't say much more about yet...
So: consider Pathfinder 2 to be closer to where we're aiming for Pathfinder's overall look. And Pathfinder 3 and 4 to be closer still. It'll be a constantly evolving process, though.
We've heard LOUD and CLEAR that a lot of our readers dislike cartoony art. We've also heard very little in defense of that art style. And guess what? When you get Pathfinder 2, you'll see the results.
Kyle Hunter will continue to be a part of Pathfinder as well. His monsters will be illustrating the Forewords and the preview section at the back, but at this point we won't be illustrating adventures with them. We do have him working on something pretty awesome though that I can't say much more about yet...
You rule. And in the defense of Mr. Hunter and Paizo, forewards and previews are a perfect place to put Kyle's quirky, instantly-recognizeable art--art that, used appropriately, is rather enjoyable. Shoot, I'm usually one of the "comic-y art must go!" torch-wielding angry mob members, but what Mr. Jacobs has just described sounds like the best of both worlds.
We've also heard very little in defense of that art style.
I would like to hereby stand in defense of Kyle's art.
When I started picking up the newer dungeons, I hated (no, loathed) Downer. It made no sense, it looked goofy, and it made a bizarre crossover into Zogonia that made even less sense (at the time).
I was mistaken. The art style grew on me, as a tumorous growth refusing to be excised. I made an effort to track down the back-story, and sure enough, Downer was kinda neat, in a, "what else out there is like this?" way. Now I actually look upon those funky drawings in the back of the dungeon snippets and revel in the novel art style. Every time I see one, there's no question who drew it. Keep on drawing the way you do, Kyle, and pay no attention to those of us who can’t tell one end of the marker from the other, but sure know how to type a good criticism.
When I started picking up the newer dungeons, I hated (no, loathed) Downer. It made no sense, it looked goofy, and it made a bizarre crossover into Zogonia that made even less sense (at the time). I was mistaken. The art style grew on me...
That's just eerie... you quoted my exact experience with it. I wouldn't necessarily want Kyle doing all the NPC portraits, but for the forward, design notes, etc., for my money there's absolutely no one better!
I like "cartoony" fantasy art and really really enjoyed Kyle's work in Pathfinder 1.
I don't like Downer, but that has nothing to do with the illustrations and everything to do with story.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I would like to hereby stand in defense of Kyle's art.When I started picking up the newer dungeons, I hated (no, loathed) Downer. It made no sense, it looked goofy, and it made a bizarre crossover into Zogonia that made even less sense (at the time).
While I wouldn't go so far as to defend Downer (sorry Kyle, you never won me over), I would and do defend Kyle's art. I loved that he did the portraits of the various bad guys in Pathfinder #1. I didn't like the art in the Sandpoint section (Ameiko in particular looks...not very good), but I don't think that is Kyle's art (and, if it is, the other art in the volume more than made up for it).
So, Kyle's Art in Burnt Offernigs = like.
Art in Sandpoint section = not so much.
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I don't want to necessarily associate myself with DMILF's post as I am not sure I share the sentiment. That said, I dislike the artwork in question here as well. Unlike his comment I am happy to subscribe and were the art to even be absent would not cause me to not subscribe. That said, I believe that the cartoony artwork drags down the quality of the product.
I am NOT calling this manga or anything else. It is a unique and distinctive style that the artist has developed and I applaud him for having his own style. It works great in his own cartoon like Downer or in comic stylings which is how I took his work in Dungeon.
In Pathfinder, however, I disappointed at the choice of this artwork as it was not used as in Dungeon but in the adventure and background. This means that I do not feel comfortable showing this artwork to my players which has been something that has been a HUGE success with other Paizo adventures.
For whatever my vote is worth, I would prefer that artwork that is a comic representation of your creatures or characters should not be included. It gives a much less serious feel to things. Compare the pictures of all other artists goblins to his, which is a fine in and of itself but lends a VERY different feel to the subject matter than other artists. As a result... it is a big break from the feel and flow of an otherwise excellent product.
Please understand that this is not an attack on the artist, he is fine, I just don't think the style is fitting with the rest of the product.
Sean Mahoney
Very nicely stated- this represents my feelings exactly. I've nothing against the artist, but I'm glad to hear that his pieces will be used the way that James indicated.
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We've heard LOUD and CLEAR that a lot of our readers dislike cartoony art. We've also heard very little in defense of that art style. And guess what? When you get Pathfinder 2, you'll see the results.
I LIKE CARTOON ART! Most likely too little too late, but I really do. Perhaps I'm in the minority. But what I do not understand is whats wrong with a little cartoon here and there? Frankly I for one will miss seeing the cartoon strips and pieces of art that used to find their way rather elegantly in Dungeon and Dragon. I think it's a nice break and usually what I read first as I'm flipping through the issue for the first time. (Can't read all the articles quickly, but you can read a 3-4 panel cartoon!) So for one I'm a bit bummed by the news. But at the same time, I do understand artwork not fitting the story. But art SHOULD NOT stop one from purchasing a good story. I don't think it should with graphic novels, and I definitely do not think it should with a book like pathfinder, which has much less art than a graphic novel.
Let me give you an example. One of my personal favorite adventures I ran was "Buzz on the bridge". It was Jeff Carlisle's art for that adventure that first brought it to my attention. I thought it was the perfect complement to that adventure. So much so that I just had a long conversation with him at Gencon. Some might call it cartoony. But hey, I like it; so much that I picked some up for my walls. I think Kyle's art is great too. Thats why I have one of his monsters as my avatar, and I look forward to future projects between him and Paizo.
But I digress. The art of pathfinder may hold some sway on my part, but not too much. I've bought graphic novels with art I dislike just for the story. But this guy didn't seen any art he hasn't liked thus far with pathfinder/game mastery stuff.
P.S. The Chuck Fact was thrown in there because DMILF didn't merrit much more a response IMHO, but the latter half of this post has gotten serious. So I felt the need to respond more seriously.
This thread is a real bummer to me. Kyle's really talented.
Yes, he is.
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O, please! Guernica is such an obvious rip-off of Tagosaku to Mokube no Tokyo Kenbutsu.
I swear, next someone's gonna say that Picasso's work resembles anime/manga. Ugh!
Touché, Monsieur Pussycat! *lol*
Back when I first started playing D&D, the one artist I really couldn't stand was Erol Otus. Hated his work with a passion. Fast forward ten to fifteen years, and I gained an appreciation for his art. It had a style and flow to it that other artists couldn't capture, even though their stuff was more realistic. Today, EO is one of, if not the top artist for D&D in my opinion.
Kyle's work is fast moving up the ladder, primarily because it has a very similar feel to Erol's pen and ink work. If he had been more into humor, Erol Otus would have been producing the same art many years ago that Kyle is producing today.
Of today's crop of artists, with the exception of Wayne Reynolds (who can somehow make a painting of a person standing perfectly still, yet still in motion), I prefer those who have a more comic-bookish look, cell-shaded: strong lines, simpler transitions between colors...
Gimme something that's got a clean appearance, not one where the colors bleed and merge so much that I'm questioning whether something's an arm, and if so, who it belongs to! Gimme art that doesn't look like it was left in a too-hot car before being brought in photography/scanning! Gimme art where the colors match what you'd see in real life, not some rainbow of unrealistic hues (My gods, if you ever have Jeff Easley do anything for you, I'll seriously consider dropping my subscription!)!
Cartoony in Forward = +
Cartoony for Goblins = +
Notice of a bit less cartoony in future = +
Good news all around here - thanks James!
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We've heard LOUD and CLEAR that a lot of our readers dislike cartoony art. We've also heard very little in defense of that art style. And guess what? When you get Pathfinder 2, you'll see the results.
Personally, I have nothing against "cartoony" art--I even like it (at least the semi-realistic kind found in comic books, manga, non-deformed/abstract/over-exaggerated animation, or anime ). I like art with bold lines and that is uncluttered by extraneous detail--I dunno, it presents a bit more action and immediacy.
For Pathfinder, I'd definitely go with the more realistic type (like the old line art used by Elmore and Dyksta, or that of some comic books).
The artwork in Pathfinder that I don't care for were pieces like Alden, Tsuto, Bruthazmus, Orik, Lyrie, Nualia, et al.--I don't find these cartoony, it's the angles and weird anatomy that are off-putting. Laubenstein's work, OTOH, I was mostly indifferent to--except for the exaggerations and colors (which I didn't particularly care for).
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While I wouldn't go so far as to defend Downer (sorry Kyle, you never won me over), I would and do defend Kyle's art. I loved that he did the portraits of the various bad guys in Pathfinder #1. I didn't like the art in the Sandpoint section (Ameiko in particular looks...not very good), but I don't think that is Kyle's art (and, if it is, the other art in the volume more than made up for it).
The art in the Sandpoint article for the NPCs was not Kyle's work. That was from Jeff Laubenstein. It doesn't fit the look of Pathfinder, so we won't be using that art style in future volumes.
I'm having an issue with the idea that a bunch of folks who play an rpg where almost everything going on is completely in your imagination can't appreciate artwork with a little less detail and thicker lines.
It's not that much of a stretch to take a slightly-exaggerated art piece and imagine how it might look in terms of reality. Anyone who is honestly struggling with this should consider the irony of playing a game that takes place in your head.
Besides this, the piece isn't even used in the adventure. Just like the magazines, Mr. Hunter's goblin is a fun little addition to the intro, with plenty of more realistic styles in the adventure itself.
I'd personally encourage the folks at Paizo to not take too seriously these folks who take themselves too seriously. And Kyle, if you're reading this, your website is in my favorites and has been since I first saw Downer. Don't let this be... a downer.
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Just posting in support of Kyle AND the pictures in burnt offerings (Tsuto, Nualia, Shalelu). I thought they were great, and though variation is always nice between issues, I wouldn't want to see them dropped altogether. Actually I liked all of the art in PF#1 (except the aforementioned stuff in the Sandpoint backdrop.) And I think the pictures shown for PF#2 are even better (scarecrow ghouls look awesome!).
Keep up the good art directing!
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The only piece of art from Kyle in Pathfinder 1 is the goblin in the Foreword on page 6.
And here I liked that little goblin. :P
Sheesh, give the guy a break..
I mean Wayne Reynolds is doing great work, but he can't do all the work for Pathfinder.. and I'm betting his stuff takes a lot longer to get back then others.
I think Kyle should develop CIGFTF (that's "Cartoony Iconic Goblins For The Foreword" for those of you who have trouble deciphering elite acronym thingys). I prefer more serious/realistic/heroic art for the main guts of Pathfinder, but the foreword is lighter in nature and Kyle's cute little goblinese characters are a perfect fit. I would love to see a recurring goblin (or group of goblins) in the foreword making goblinish mischief.
Well, I've said "goblinese" and "goblinish" in this post, so I better stop before "goblinesque" sneaks it's way in... OOPS!
I've gotta say, Paizo's artwork only goes up in quality.
I've seen more talented fantasy and gaming artists emerge from the pages of Dungeon, Dragon, and GameMastery products than in any other source. (Albeit, my exposure may be biased, but I stand by that claim.)
Kyle Hunter's "Downer" was one of the most revolutionary and imaginative comics I'd ever read, let alone that it was one that had a surprisingly faithful root in the D&D mythos.
I, for one, hope to see more work of his in future GameMastery products, along with other favorites (including Andrew Hou, Joachim Barrum, Cyril Van Der Haegen, and UDON, to name a few).
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I think Kyle should develop CIGFTF (that's "Cartoony Iconic Goblins For The Foreword" for those of you who have trouble deciphering elite acronym thingys). I prefer more serious/realistic/heroic art for the main guts of Pathfinder, but the foreword is lighter in nature and Kyle's cute little goblinese characters are a perfect fit. I would love to see a recurring goblin (or group of goblins) in the foreword making goblinish mischief.
Well, I've said "goblinese" and "goblinish" in this post, so I better stop before "goblinesque" sneaks it's way in... OOPS!
As much as I love seeing Kyle's take on a different monster each month... This sounds awesome too! Hrm, goblinesque guys fighting/playing cards with/or doing other funny things with a different monster every month? That way the goblins are the mascot? Could still be contained in a small picture on the forward. :o)
I must say...I agree.
While I thought that the 'anime' look of the drawings in the adventure for Burnt Offerings was out of place...a recurring theme on the introduction/credits pages of Pathfinder would be great! While it wouldn't replace my monthly comics that I loved from Dungeon and Dragon, some cute (but undeniably evil) goblins cavorting about a page or two of Pathfinder would make for a nice eye relaxer.
FFB