I would like to request an increase in font size for the text for Pathfinder. The tiny font size (6 point?) of Pathfinder 1 makes it very difficult for me to read. The paper is also too glossy. When illuminated by a reading light, it's reflective that the small text is even harder to see.
Given the richly detailed Sandpoint setting, I am very disappointed that the tiny font size makes this product so uncomfortable to use. Perhaps Paizo could offer print subscribers a PDF with larger text, such as a ten point font then increase the size in future issues?
Thank you,
Arawen
I bet you guys were trying to fit in as much as you can in the page limet, and for that I thank you. But I do agrea that the font size was on the small side.
Maybe it's just my young eyes (to be fair, I have been in glasses since I was 1), but I didn't have any problems reading it. Except the 'handwritten' parts, because I suck a reading/writing script.
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Given the richly detailed Sandpoint setting, I am very disappointed that the tiny font size makes this product so uncomfortable to use. Perhaps Paizo could offer print subscribers a PDF with larger text, such as a ten point font then increase the size in future issues?
thats the glory of PDF you can zoom in to get bigger fonts if so desired personally I'm copying much of the non-AP part into a personal webpage on my laptop, and making it larger anyway
I think the font size is a good thing. If they had used a font size the same as they had used for the "D" and "D" magazines it would have probably been at least 120 pages long. That would mean either they would have to increase the cost or decrease the material. I definitely like having more material as it makes the cost more acceptable. What I hope they don't do is increase the font in the future but not the page count, because that will mean we will be getting less value for our buck.
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I would hate to see the font size increased only to lose out on content. Yes it is small, but I did not think it was that bad. Although, if the font size is causing folks issues, I would rather see the page count increased, even if it means some extra cost. The quality and quantity of info provided was excellent, and I would not want any of it to get cut in future issues.
I can read it now, kind of, but in a few years there's no way I'll be able to make out what it says! James Jacobs mentioned elsewhere that font size can't be changed until issue 7 at the earliest. In the meantime, we'll have to make due with viewing the PDF at 175% size. Another trick is to put a half-inch or so of water in a lowball glass and put the glass down on the text you want to read (which is a pain in the neck when you're scanning the text for something).
This might sound blasphemous, but I'd be quite willing to have fewer illustrations if it meant larger text and an equal amount of content...
This might sound blasphemous, but I'd be quite willing to have fewer illustrations if it meant larger text and an equal amount of content...
It might actually be easier overall if they released a sixteen-page guide of illustrations similiar to the Player's Guide. It'd give them the ability to make larger text and include more illustrations than they have now, plus it'd make it easier to show the illustrations to the PCs at appropriate times. I'd pay an extra $2...
Of course there is also another answer.
Of course there is also another answer.
REQUIRED: Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, Players Guide to Pathfinder, Magnifying Glass.
We hear ya and we're on it. This is one of the points that we’ve most consistently had feedback on and something we’re already addressing.
Let me give you the background on this. Switching from doing Dragon and Dungeon, we had the opportunity to dramatically change the look of our product. Aside from the wildly different layout you see in Pathfinder, our art director decided to change the font we use. No worries. While working on “Burnt Offerings” we noticed a few inconsistencies with the new font (no bold/ital option and the letting on numbers always seems loose) but nothing to worry about. What we didn't note until we got the book back from the printer (as our computers zoom in to whatever comfortable view we prefer) is that even though we were using the same point size as we did in Dragon and Dungeon, this font appeared a bit smaller in print. But, overall, we decided that it was far from unreadable, allowed us to fit more on each page (a constant concern), and that anyone who took issue could use the PDF and resize that however the pleased. So there you have the look of the product that’s in your hot little hands.
That's not the end of the matter, though.
While changing something as pervasive as the font from one volume to the next would create a marked stylistic difference between two portions of the adventure path—something we don't want to do, especially since the earliest we could get the change in now would be in #5—the six month run of each path gives us the opportunity to redesign Pathfinder pretty much every 168 days. And while I think everyone would agree that Pathfinder looks teh Awesome, the look for Rise of the Runelords was created in less than a week, in Sarah's free time, while she was still working on Dragon.(Yes, she's a super hero/villain.) So while that one came out looking cool in a week, she's already working on the design for Curse of the Crimson Throne. And high on the list of alterations is a change to a new, easier to read font (…and moving pictures, and smell-O-vision, and gold pages).
So that's the long story. So reassure your tired eyes, respite is coming. It just turns out that the Runelords are merciless bastards, and it won't be until after their menace passes. Sorry folks.
Creative Director
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The unfortunate side effect is that it's very unlikely that Pathfinder's page count will increase any time soon. So the larger font, which I'm assuming will be like Dungeon and will have 850 words per page rather than 1,000, will probably result in a net "loss" of about 10,000 words, or ten pages, of room to put stuff into Pathfinder. That's pretty significant, and another reason we can't change fonts until Curse of the Crimson Throne, since Runelords's content is already based on the room we have with the current font.
I'll of course try to get a pagecount increase for Pathfinder 7, but it's unlikely that I can pull that off. In which case, we'll just need to streamline things a little bit more to get all that we want in there, in there.
The unfortunate side effect is that it's very unlikely that Pathfinder's page count will increase any time soon. So the larger font, which I'm assuming will be like Dungeon and will have 850 words per page rather than 1,000, will probably result in a net "loss" of about 10,000 words, or ten pages, of room to put stuff into Pathfinder. That's pretty significant, and another reason we can't change fonts until Curse of the Crimson Throne, since Runelords's content is already based on the room we have with the current font.
I'll of course try to get a pagecount increase for Pathfinder 7, but it's unlikely that I can pull that off. In which case, we'll just need to streamline things a little bit more to get all that we want in there, in there.
I have no problem with the font size at all. C'mon people . . .read old novels much? ;)
Seriously, I would rather have the content and the small font, than lose content and get 'better' font. I hope I am not in the minority.
I've heard this complaint, but I haven't noticed any small text. I often read many paperback books with small text, though, so I may have just gotten used to it over many years.
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I've heard this complaint, but I haven't noticed any small text. I often read many paperback books with small text, though, so I may have just gotten used to it over many years.
I didn't have a problem with the text either. I didn't even notice that it was smaller than the magazines' text. My vote is to stick with the current size font, especially if it means us losing out on 10k words of content. If it ever gets too small for my aging eyes, I'll bust out a magnifier.
I wonder if this similiar to the fullscreen - widescreen thing with movies. Some folk like the fullscreen because it is larger for most (still) standard screens and don't like the black bars wasting space. Others (like myself) prefer the widescreen because even though I lose some use of the actual screen I gain the ability to see all of the shot. Losing some of the less dramatic material may be acceptable to some in order to have larger print, but for me I'd rather use a magnifier and get that material.
I'm going to chime in again in the content camp. 10 pages is 10% of the book. That's alot of content that I'd rather not lose. The other alternative is losing maps and illustrations, which I'd also rather not see.
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I can read it now, kind of, but in a few years there's no way I'll be able to make out what it says!
Officemax and Staples sell these handy magnifying SHEETS. It's about 8x10 and you drop it on top of whatever it is and it magnifies it for you. Very useful and very portable for those with bad eyes.. me, I have glasses. :P
I'm all for keeping the font size and the content too...
especially as I have decieded not to purchase anymore adventures from any sources other than Paizo (there is no going back to WotC after seeing the quality and content paizo offers).
Keep up the good work.
More content, and damn the font size! ^.^
The first sign that the Known World/Hollow World setting was losing quality was the simultaneous reduction in page count and expansion of font size in products such as the Atruaghin Clans Gazetteer. The line never really recovered. :(
What I'm thinking is, why don't you up the font size by 1 and then actually use all of the page width? There seems to be an awful lot of wasted space next to the two text columns that could be used to make up for the extra space an increase in font size would demand.
The half-page illustrations take advantage of the full page width, so increasing the text blocks shouldn't be a problem either (frankly, I'd rather have a decent sized text than "spiffy" background page borders).
If you expand the text all the way to the vertical line present in the background image, just like the illustrations do, you'd gain roughly 2 words per line.
I say make the font size smaller!!!!
Smaller font means more content . . . what? you don't think I'm being serious?
okay, seriously . . . keep the font the same size. If I get to the point I can't read it, I can always take the PDF and cut and paste the text into word processing program and adjust the font size accordingly.
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Creative Director
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What I'm thinking is, why don't you up the font size by 1 and then actually use all of the page width? There seems to be an awful lot of wasted space next to the two text columns that could be used to make up for the extra space an increase in font size would demand.
The half-page illustrations take advantage of the full page width, so increasing the text blocks shouldn't be a problem either (frankly, I'd rather have a decent sized text than "spiffy" background page borders).
If you expand the text all the way to the vertical line present in the background image, just like the illustrations do, you'd gain roughly 2 words per line.
It's actually not that easy; fonts are strange beasts. The font in Pathfinder is actually AT the same font size as the one used in Dungeon. Changes to the font would, of course, come with changes to the margin sizes and therefore to the actual layout of the book, which is why it's such a complicated task. So we'd certainly be able to make up some space if we change to a larger font by adjusting margin size and all that. Hopefully, we'll find a happy medium where we'll have a more readable font while sacrificing as litlte potential content as possbile.
"Spiffy" background page borders and the like (AKA trade dress) won't be going away. That's part of the way we personalize our products, make them look different than our competition, and add some personality to the pages.
And all of this gets done not by us editors, of coruse, but by our awesome and talented art director, Sarah. She's the one that makes the whole thing look good, and I'm absolutely not interested in cramping her style just to squeeze a few more words onto a page. At the same point, I don't relish the prospect of losing that potential 10 pages of content either.
Fortunately, we've got nearly two months to figure out the answer! :)
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Just get one of these...
I mean really, I wear glasses and I can still read the current font size WITHOUT them. Stop inconveniencing the rest of with your vanity and get some glasses, if you have them and still can't read it, get new ones.
I do wear glasses and I occasionally have trouble reading certain fonts. My glasses are appropriate for my current eye troubles, my prescription is current. Its not about vanity and its not about troubling you in any way. Please keep your judgements and arrogance in check.
It is more than the size sometimes. It is a combination of factors. Most often it is font style, font size, and the glossy nature of the paper. I can read most text just fine but the Pathfinder text is a bit hard to read at times.
Oh, as for your glasses. How bad is your vision? What kind of vision issue do you have? I imagine it is different for everyone so, once again, broad statements don't suit the discussion.
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By the way, the full page maginifier is a good idea, I appreciate that suggestion. It does make quick reference in game slightly awkward but I think it could help.
I would generally agree that I would rather have content over a larger font size. Like I said, I can read most of it I just miss the occassional word. Running the adventure might get interesting but I can make certain adjustments if I need to. Honestly though, if a significant number of people are having a great deal of trouble then I would want to make sure they were comfortable and happy with the product as well.
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By the way, the full page maginifier is a good idea, I appreciate that suggestion. It does make quick reference in game slightly awkward but I think it could help.
Full page magnifier also makes a great bookmark/placeholder... dang.. I can't believe I'm trying to sell office supplies... I just got out of that business!
Anyway, my prescription only gone up a step in 15 years, so I'd say that my eyes are in pretty good shape. Regardless, I get my eyes checked every year as anyone with glasses should. :P
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Anyway, my prescription only gone up a step in 15 years, so I'd say that my eyes are in pretty good shape. Regardless, I get my eyes checked every year as anyone with glasses should. :P
As do I. And I didn't mean to come off as a total ass when I said what I said. Well, maybe I did, but I apologize. I just know it can be a pain in the ass when I can't read something and I know my prescription is right on target. It happens rarely but it makes me feel like an old man (I'm only 31) when I can't read something. :) It is down right frustrating.
"Spiffy" background page borders and the like (AKA trade dress) won't be going away. That's part of the way we personalize our products, make them look different than our competition, and add some personality to the pages.And all of this gets done not by us editors, of coruse, but by our awesome and talented art director, Sarah. She's the one that makes the whole thing look good, and I'm absolutely not interested in cramping her style just to squeeze a few more words onto a page. At the same point, I don't relish the prospect of losing that potential 10 pages of content either.
By enlarging the text margin you wouldn't have to do away with the background page borders, just use the space available (just like the illustrations do - they don't cross the vertical line in the background art, but fills out the entire width available within said background art).
Would implementing this as soon as possible be damaging to the sale of the adventures? I don't know if you have data to suggest otherwise, but I personally doubt it. If someone is browsing through the adventures in a store they might notice the difference, but most would probably be glad that the font had increased (thus improving readability).These books are primarily meant for active use, they're tools instead of coffee table decorations, thus functionality would, IMO, win out over the small fact that the font increased a total of one time from one volume to the next.
Better I just jam my face up against the pages to read the tiny lett'rins than watch the price per issue go up because they had to add pages. ;)
Is it too early to recommend a Pathfinder VR supplement. I think I'm ready to take it to the next level.
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Anyway, my prescription only gone up a step in 15 years, so I'd say that my eyes are in pretty good shape. Regardless, I get my eyes checked every year as anyone with glasses should. :P
I wish mine did that. From the time I was 13 until I was 25, my prescription increased 1-2 steps every 6-9 months. The past three years it has increased a step each (I'm 28 now...you'd think my eyes would have stablized by now). Maybe I need a bat avatar. :)
I noticed that the font was smaller, but was still able to read it. The headings are large enough to look at quickly while skimming to find something.
Maybe there is a narrower, slightly taller font floating around?
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Creative Director
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Would implementing this as soon as possible be damaging to the sale of the adventures?
We work several months in advance, and at this point, "as soon as possible" would probably be Pathfinder 5. At which point drastically changing the look of the book would be undesirable. In fact, changing the look in the middle of an adventure path at any point is undesirable.
Pathfinder 7, which starts a new adventure path (and will be 100% free of the complications that have had ripple effects on our schedule), is the most logical and best point to make changes and adjustments.
Thank god others have noticed the problem with the font and spoke up. I mentioned this as soon as the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide came out and I was told that nothing could or would be done unless many others thought the same way.
I actually came to the Paizo site to cancel my charter subscription to Pathfinder because of the font size and I just happened to jump on the boards. This thread and the statements from the powers that be has changed my mind and made an even more loyal customer of me.
PLEASE do something as soon as possible. A font change this early in Pathfinder's run will not be a big deal and I'll guarantee that there are plenty of people in stores taking Pathfinder off the shelf, looking at a few pages, and then putting it right back while rubbing their eyes.
The unfortunate side effect is that it's very unlikely that Pathfinder's page count will increase any time soon. So the larger font, which I'm assuming will be like Dungeon and will have 850 words per page rather than 1,000, will probably result in a net "loss" of about 10,000 words, or ten pages, of room to put stuff into Pathfinder.
A high word count was, from the outside looking in, what I thought was your reasoning was for choosing a font with tight 'l' and 'o' widths (even if the lowercase 'j' was somewhat funky looking). As it stands, you're using a healthy leading, which makes the typeface legible. To each his own, but I thought the body text was appropriate within the overall design.
While I normally always come down on the side of tight writing, I would really hate for Pathfinder to sacrifice content. On the rack, Pathfinder has the appearance of "thin" product with a high price tag. And while there are many of us on these messageboards who know its true value -- the small body font and all the goodies within mitigates that perception somewhat.
I think all of us have purchased Wizards products, and noticed the cavalier fashion in which the books, even those in the same series, are typeset. (Compare the body text size in environmental series books of Frostburn, Sandstorm and then Stormwrack for instance. The body type just keeps going up, up, up. But the price remains a hefty $34.95). Now I know that things like artwork, pacing and editing can contribute to good reasons to slash content, but the overall impression is that we're paying more for less.
I would hate to think Pathfinder would have to go that route. One of the things I was always impressed with in Dragon and Dungeon, was the your attention to details, font discipline being one of them. You've always held yourself to a higher standard than the folks in the wizard's tower, and we appreciate it.
Wes does make a good point, though. The font's utility is lessened if it doesn't give you boldface and italics and the numeral baselines are off. That means you have to go font shopping anyway.
I just hope you can find a way buy back some of those 10,000 words within the context of the product's design.
Let me clarify that there's no vanity issue here, just a utility one. I can read the type, too, people... but that doesn't mean it's easy to skim, and in the midst of an adventure--when I'm looking for a reference that I need in the midst of play--I don't want to have to fool with a magnifying glass as well (sorry to all the people who so snarkily recommended them, as if those of us in favor of larger type were too stupid to know they existed). So, to all the people yelling about how easy it is to read, try DMing the adventure at a table while your players are arguing over who goes next. All of the sudden, I suspect that somewhat larger type will gain a large number of supporters.
Massive kudos to Sarah for a beautiful product overall. And James and Wesley, thanks for a clear explanation; certainly we can easily wait until the next AP for any changes. In terms of making a DM's life easier, though, larger type at some point would go a long way towards making the product more user-friendly during actual game play. If that means that 10,000 words of content will need to be posted as some kind of an unformatted web enhancement, that's OK by me (Cf. the additional scenes from Sea Wyvern's Wake that Rich posted on these boards, or the extra material from Chains of Blackmaw that Nick provided similarly.)
I'll jump on the "margin" bandwagon. There's 9/16" padding leading to the page margin (1 1/8" total from word to edge). Scale the padding back to 1/4" or even 1/8". This will give back 5/16" to 7/16" (half that for each column), on each line, that can be used in a larger font or something else. The images make good use or even abuse this extra space (Koruvus, Bruthazmus, Orik). Of course, don't touch the page seam margin.
While I understand that "branding" is important, so is font size and layout. A perfect example of small font size is the City of Raven's Bluff. Great book, I'm sure, but couldn't read it because of the font size. Gave me a headache. Maybe without the curly borders, it would have had the space for a larger font size.
Thank you Kirth for mentioning how incredibly rude some people have been about this issue. It's amazing how unempathetic people can be when they start thinking they may not get their "money's worth" out of their gaming products. My "money's worth" means that I have a product I can actually reaad and use during play.
What this come's down to for me is that I, and many others, subscribed to Pathfinder sight-unseen because we were assured that we would get the same, or even better, quality products that we've come to expect from Paizo. From that promise, I assumed that Pathfinder would be as readable as Dragon or Dungeon magazines. Pathfinder, while being a well written and designed product, is not usabe to many people due to the font used. That's a simple concept to me.
Kobold Press
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PLEASE do something as soon as possible. A font change this early in Pathfinder's run will not be a big deal and I'll guarantee that there are plenty of people in stores taking Pathfinder off the shelf, looking at a few pages, and then putting it right back while rubbing their eyes.
I'm with Bavix; it's nasty. I *can* read it, but it's not the pleasant experience it should be. I notice the difficulty way too much, and I've found it more difficult to get through the issue than I expected, despite the great content.
I spend all day staring at screens and papers. The last thing I need is a small, difficult font taunting me in my off hours.
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Creative Director
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I'm not sure how many people find the small font "unreadable." There's certainly been several posts here... but taken in context, even fifty people would still not constitute 1% of the total Pathfinder customers. And honestly, that's another reason to hold off until Pathfinder 7. I don't want to do any drastic changes to the book until we've had more of a chance to hear from customers about what they think.
And to be clear: if changing the font results in a lower word-per-page count... that just means we do slightly smaller adventures and articles. It's not like Curse of the Crimson Throne's been edited and developed yet... or even written! And I'm not sure that changing fonts WOULD have much of an impact on the amount of content; again, it's a complex set of variables.
In any case, be nice and don't fight. Fighting makes editors sad!
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I'll go on record as stating that I have no problem with the current font size and layout.
However, I do understand that my vision is exceedingly good and that many people are not as fortunate as I am. I would say that, of all the gamers I've ever played with, 40-50% are bespectacled. I can see how the font size may be an issue.
I trust that Paizo will judge it's demographic well, as they have in the past, and act accordingly - whatever that may mean for the future of the product.
Not that I am requesting a largeprint version for the visually impaired, but I, too, have difficulty reading the print. I think it's a combination of font size and type and the paper as people have mentioned previously. I wear reading glasses but have no problems with far vision. I am not looking forward to bifocals just to play pathfinder. For the record I am one of those who also has problems with nonstandard color combinations for computer text like red on black screen - causes me eyestrain.
No problem reading it.
No problem with accommodations made for the slightly visually impaired, although I find losing 10% disappointing.
When reading the adventure the font is fairly ok for me (note: I haven't received the actual book yet, but I'm talking from a copy the text into a Word document and adjusting the font size so the formatting lines up - which I assume is about the same size as in the printed version - point of view, also, I've printed out some of the pages directly from the pdf-file (the "problem" here is that the whole page is very slightly reduced, from Letter sized to A4)), ok as in "sure I can read it without too much trouble, although I certainly wouldn't mind it being slightly bigger."
My biggest problem was when actually running the adventure (which we started on yesterday). That's when the biggest problem arose, when trying to quickly find information in the text (even with names bolded etc.). The density of the text makes this more difficult in a practical situation.
So, again, please increase the font size and utilize the wide margins.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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While I understand that "branding" is important, so is font size and layout. A perfect example of small font size is the City of Raven's Bluff. Great book, I'm sure, but couldn't read it because of the font size. Gave me a headache. Maybe without the curly borders, it would have had the space for a larger font size.
Ugh, death to the curly borders!
I think City of Raven's Bluff suffered the same problem as the deity books that came out about this time (Sean, if you're lurking please correct me if I'm wrong.)
"We've got all this stuff, we need more pages."
"You don't get more pages."
"But we don't want to cut it."
"Look, we're not making the book bigger, deal with it."
*Lorriane leaves the room the air warms up, birds start singing, the room brightens etc.*
"I know, we'll shrink the fonts to make it fit!"