Hi all,
Just got Pathfinder #1 in the mail yesterday (got the download a few days ago) and I wanted to say thanks to Paizo for choosing to make this such a high print quality product. My wife says she'll bug me less for spending $20 a month on it - she thought it was a magazine and I was happy to be able to show her otherwise. Cheers!
M
Hi all,
Just got Pathfinder #1 in the mail yesterday (got the download a few days ago) and I wanted to say thanks to Paizo for choosing to make this such a high print quality product. My wife says she'll bug me less for spending $20 a month on it - she thought it was a magazine and I was happy to be able to show her otherwise. Cheers!
M
*cries*
Mine still hasn't come...my Post Office is probably just keeping it and ogling it themselves...
My only complaint about Pathfinder's quality (and it's one that carries over from my Dungeon subscription): the images print too dark*. Compare the bedroom scene on page 17 of the print edition to the same page in the PDF. The print editions images loose details in the darker areas because the images haven't been properly color corrected.As a result, when the inks hit the paper and bleed, dark areas of the image get darker; if the images are properly corrected, when printed, they retain the same quality as the original.
When you get down to it, though, this is the only complaint I have about Pathfinder's quality. Everything else about the production is superior in every way to most of the D&D products out today.
*<sigh> Children, be warned: this is the kind of obsessive analysis of printed materials you'll pick up from 10 years in the newspaper industry...
I agree that some of the pictures are a little too dark AND I love the print quality! I'll be happy when all the Player's Guides arrive and I can hand them to my players and say, "You got homework." :)
I wanted to say thanks to Paizo for choosing to make this such a high print quality product.
Agreed! :) I'm extremely happy with the quality of the binding, pages, etc. I don't feel bad spending $20 a month when the book looks this good.
Wow, glitzy printing...fantastic full color art...willing to pay $20 per issue...
Has *ANYONE* noticed that the products are made in China? Does anyone really care? Or is it that we're all so used to shopping at Wal-Mart that nobody looks anymore.
Maybe nobody truly gives a damn about the US economy or having pride in products made in the USA.
I wrote a thread discussing this, and am currently waiting for it to be posted.
Honestly, how does everyone else feel about this topic?
Flynn
Has *ANYONE* noticed that the products are made in China? Does anyone really care? Or is it that we're all so used to shopping at Wal-Mart that nobody looks anymore.
Maybe nobody truly gives a damn about the US economy or having pride in products made in the USA.
I wrote a thread discussing this, and am currently waiting for it to be posted.
Honestly, how does everyone else feel about this topic?
There's already a monstrousity of a thread about this here
Contributor
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Honestly, how does everyone else feel about this topic?
You can find out how other people feel about it here. Go troll over there.
Creative Director
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I just hope to find some Dragon-like content in future issues, not just Dungeon stuff.
Some of the Dragon-like content we've got scheduled for the next 5 Pathfinders:
Two Core-Beliefs style articles on deities (Desna and Lamashtu)
An ecology-style exploration of stone giants
A short article about castles
An article about new spells and magic items (from Thassilon)
And, of course, at least 6 new monsters in every book.
Some of the Dragon-like content we've got scheduled for the next 5 Pathfinders:
Two Core-Beliefs style articles on deities (Desna and Lamashtu)
An ecology-style exploration of stone giants
A short article about castles
An article about new spells and magic items (from Thassilon)
And, of course, at least 6 new monsters in every book.
WOW!!!
You can find out how other people feel about it here. Go troll over there.Honestly, how does everyone else feel about this topic?
Go troll over there ?
First of all, Mr "(GameMastery Associate Editor)", I buy your product. If I have a desire to ask a question of folks, it is my perogative to do so. Second, I truly don't care whether it's been brought up a million times or not. I'll bring it up for the MILLIONTH and ONE time, because I feel it is an issue we as Americans need to DO something about. Maybe my "troll" post clued a few people into the issue at hand. Maybe not. But hey, I made my effort.
Second, you really may not want to come across quite so flippantly to a *paying customer* with a genuine concern. Don't agree? Fine. But remember, you are a direct representative of a company that I am a PATRON of. Or doesn't that mean anything anymore?
Flynn
Honestly, how does everyone else feel about this topic?Don't really care, stop posting it in other places.
As for the quality, it's an excellent value for $20, I just hope to find some Dragon-like content in future issues, not just Dungeon stuff.
Tough, I decided to post here. It's relevant. Don't like it? C'est la vie.
Flynn
Second, you really may not want to come across quite so flippantly to a *paying customer* with a genuine concern. Don't agree? Fine. But remember, you are a direct representative of a company that I am a PATRON of. Or doesn't that mean anything anymore?
Flynn
They care, but they also don't take any crap. That's how they roll. Perhaps your tone was a bit off-putting? Especially where you asked, "Doesn't anyone give a crap about the American economy?" (or words to that effect). It sounded like you were presuming fault rather than inquiring about why their printing is done in China. Perhaps if you had been more constructive in your inquiry? That and the fact that there is another thread discussing the same issue. The short answer, best I can recall from the other thread, is that they can't print it here and then sell it for a competitive price.
FWIW, I have concerns about working conditions in China and I would be willing to pay more for something that was printed in the U.S., but I expect I am in the extreme minority.
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Go troll over there ?First of all, Mr "(GameMastery Associate Editor)", I buy your product. If I have a desire to ask a question of folks, it is my perogative to do so.
What you fail to realize is that going into a thread and changing the topic of discussion to something you have a beef is bad forum etiquette. It's called off topic posting and many moderators consider it spam and sometimes delete and/or ban people doing it.
Second, you really may not want to come across quite so flippantly to a *paying customer* with a genuine concern. Don't agree? Fine. But remember, you are a direct representative of a company that I am a PATRON of. Or doesn't that mean anything anymore?
It's a new century. The customer isn't always right.
This is a private forum, owned by Paizo. They can say and do whatever they want.
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I just hope to find some Dragon-like content in future issues, not just Dungeon stuff.Some of the Dragon-like content we've got scheduled for the next 5 Pathfinders:
Two Core-Beliefs style articles on deities (Desna and Lamashtu)
An ecology-style exploration of stone giants
A short article about castles
An article about new spells and magic items (from Thassilon)
And, of course, at least 6 new monsters in every book.
Yum! Now if we could just got some Iconic fiction. :)
Second, you really may not want to come across quite so flippantly to a *paying customer* with a genuine concern. Don't agree? Fine. But remember, you are a direct representative of a company that I am a PATRON of. Or doesn't that mean anything anymore?
Flynn
They care, but they also don't take any crap. That's how they roll. Perhaps your tone was a bit off-putting? Especially where you asked, "Doesn't anyone give a crap about the American economy?" (or words to that effect). It sounded like you were presuming fault rather than inquiring about why their printing is done in China. Perhaps if you had been more constructive in your inquiry? That and the fact that there is another thread discussing the same issue. The short answer, best I can recall from the other thread, is that they can't print it here and then sell it for a competitive price.
FWIW, I have concerns about working conditions in China and I would pay more for something that was printed in the U.S., but I expect I am in the extreme minority.
Fantastic, "that's how they roll". Frankly, Mr Mcartor pissed me off (as a customer) with his flippant attitude regarding "go troll over there".
Whew. Off my chest.
Anyone with two eyes and a bit of knowledge about what is going on in this country can A) see that the product is good, but made to excessive quality levels FOR WHAT IT IS, and B) knows that it is the current fashionably corporate thing to send work out of the US to China. In my thread that I started, I stated that I loved their work. Still do. But I also stated that I would gladly pay the same price for an entirely PDF version of the product (with all the money going to Paizo, and not being split with a foreign middleman) knowing that it was MADE in the US!
Don't get me wrong, I hear what you are saying...but frankly, in todays world, these are questions that need to be asked. And honestly, they deserve the attention that not gilding the lillies offers.
I'm also glad to hear that you're a kindred spirit in the core ideal of my rant :)
Ciao!
Flynn - dedicated Paizo customer
Go troll over there ?First of all, Mr "(GameMastery Associate Editor)", I buy your product. If I have a desire to ask a question of folks, it is my perogative to do so.What you fail to realize is that going into a thread and changing the topic of discussion to something you have a beef is bad forum etiquette. It's called off topic posting and many moderators consider it spam and sometimes delete and/or ban people doing it.
Second, you really may not want to come across quite so flippantly to a *paying customer* with a genuine concern. Don't agree? Fine. But remember, you are a direct representative of a company that I am a PATRON of. Or doesn't that mean anything anymore?It's a new century. The customer isn't always right.
This is a private forum, owned by Paizo. They can say and do whatever they want.
Alright, Etiquette Police...whatever. My question and statements were GERMANE to the topic at hand. And, it served it's purpose.
How's it feel to know that you were manipulated into thinking about something your cozy little mind felt too bothered to think about at the time? :)
And, I've got news for you bud...all it takes is the loss of one sheep that starts making alot of noise...new century my ass. Apparently you don't know much about economics and commerce. Try thinking about your retort rather than resorting to pure pablum.
Flynn - dedicated Paizo customer
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And, I've got news for you bud...all it takes is the loss of one sheep that starts making alot of noise...new century my ass. Apparently you don't know much about economics and commerce. Try thinking about your retort rather than resorting to pure pablum.
Lol.. right.
I think you need to take a lesson in economics and commerce. "The customer isn't always right" is straight out of the mouth of Brad Anderson, CEO of Best Buy. When Mr. Anderson made that announcement at a stockholders meeting of best buy, guess what happened? The next day, stock prices fell. You know what happened the day after that, stock price not only recovered but doubled what the fall was.
I think you need to take your own advice "bud" find somewhere else to troll.
And, I've got news for you bud...all it takes is the loss of one sheep that starts making alot of noise...new century my ass. Apparently you don't know much about economics and commerce. Try thinking about your retort rather than resorting to pure pablum.Lol.. right.
I think you need to take a lesson in economics and commerce. "The customer isn't always right" is straight out of the mouth of Brad Anderson, CEO of Best Buy. When Mr. Anderson made that announcement at a stockholders meeting of best buy, guess what happened? The next day, stock prices fell. You know what happened the day after that, stock prices doubled what they were before the fall.
I think you need to take your own advice bud.
Well then, it's sad to see a nation turning to blind consumers like yourself.
If Paizo realizes what's good for them, they'll be consumer oriented. They'll pander to their customers, and they'll do even greater volumes of business.
Bottom line is, keep your customer happy, and they'll go out of their way to do business with you. If you care to suckle at the teat of corporate breasts that could care less about you or what you think, feel free to do so. I merely voiced my opinion. You apparently felt better by taking the time to trample it rather than actually think about it.
Take care, and don't trip over the greeters on your way into Wal-Mart.
Flynn - dedicated Paizo customer
Anyone with two eyes and a bit of knowledge about what is going on in this country can A) see that the product is good, but made to excessive quality levels FOR WHAT IT IS, and B) knows that it is the current fashionably corporate thing to send work out of the US to China. In my thread that I started, I stated that I loved their work. Still do. But I also stated that I would gladly pay the same price for an entirely PDF version of the product (with all the money going to Paizo, and not being split with a foreign middleman) knowing that it was MADE in the US!
I guess it may be inherently subjective, but I respectfully disagree that Pathfinder is made to "excessive quality levels." I think it is difficult for quality to be too high, and I am very jazzed about the quality of the physical product. And even though you (and probably others) would pay for the pdf, not everyone would. There are plenty of us old codgers who greatly prefer a physical book we can hold in our hands. While I appreciate the free pdf I get as a subscriber, if Pathfinder were pdf *only*, I would have to strongly reconsider. (Btw, this also ties in to why I (and many others) think WOTC's decision to go "digital" with the magazines was a terrible idea).
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Well then, it's sad to see a nation turning to blind consumers like yourself.Take care, and don't trip over the greeters on your way into Wal-Mart.
Ahh yes, the ever popular fall back position of trolls and toads. When one is cornered and puts his foot in his mouth, attempt to mock and/or belittle the opposition instead of gracefully bowing out having learned a lesson.
By the way, that whole "dedicated Paizo customer" next to their name, it kind of makes you stick out like a sore thumb for what you really are.
I guess it may be inherently subjective, but I respectfully disagree that Pathfinder is made to "excessive quality levels." I think it is difficult for quality to be too high, and I am very jazzed about the quality of the physical product. And even though you (and probably others) would pay for the pdf, not everyone would. There are plenty of us old codgers who greatly prefer a physical book we can hold in our hands. While I appreciate the free pdf I get as a subscriber, if Pathfinder were pdf *only*, I would have to strongly reconsider. (Btw, this also ties in to why I (and many others) think WOTC's decision to go "digital" with the magazines was a terrible idea).
Kelvar, I know where you're coming from on this. As a programmer, I still find myself wanting to print out online manuals before I truly feel as though I've been able to really get to the meat of the topic. Being close to forty, I like to see pages laid out in front of me. And to be able to flip back and forth.
The point that I am trying to make though is that there comes a time that for greater causes, sacrifices need to be made. Whereas I'd truly rather have the high quality printing, full color beautiful work that Paizo does, I also feel VERY strongly about the issue of work being sent overseas. Sure, it *looks* fantastic, but wouldn't you rather see Erik Mona and even Sr Suave himself, Mike Mcartor get pay increases because they were able to cut out the middle man of an overseas printing facility (if it were purely PDF, that is).
Would monochromatic visuals and selective printing truly dampen your experience with the product? Isn't it really about the CREATIVE work behind the stories and the adventures put together?
If I want something pretty to look at, I'll buy a Playboy. If I want adventure, I want it to come from Paizo.
But NOT at the cost of our economy and potentially lost jobs.
Flynn - dedicated Paizo customer
Reading digital content on the toilet is about the only thing a blackberry is good for. It gets a little hard to read pdfs though...
Ahh yes, the ever popular fall back position of trolls and toads. When one is cornered and puts his foot in his mouth, attempt to mock and/or belittle the opposition instead of gracefully bowing out having learned a lesson.By the way, that whole "dedicated Paizo customer" next to their name, it kind of makes you stick out like a sore thumb for what you really are.
OUCH...quit it. You REALLY are hurting me. Truly, you are.
Perhaps something I said cut a little too close to the bone?
Flynn - dedicated Paizo customer (and think about WHY I'd put this here given the nature of my discussion points)
Reading digital content on the toilet is about the only thing a blackberry is good for. It gets a little hard to read pdfs though...
LMAO
Thanks for lightening things up a bit :)
Flynn
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Reading digital content on the toilet is about the only thing a blackberry is good for. It gets a little hard to read pdfs though...
I've tried reading ebooks on my PALM, it's just not fun. I can't even begin to imagine reading a magazine with graphics and such on the pages on it. Just about the only thing I find digital good for is when I need 1 or 2 pages out of something, quick print and don't need to carry the whole book with me.
(((Admittedly off-topic)))
Can't we have one thread that doesn't evoke China for crying out loud?
(((Apologies, please disregard.)))
That would be like having a thread that doesn't mention D&D 4.0 or Nazis.
(((Admittedly off-topic)))
Can't we have one thread that doesn't evoke China for crying out loud?
(((Apologies, please disregard.)))
Not when it's an important issue, sorry.
Flynn - dedicated Paizo customer
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That would be like having a thread that doesn't mention D&D 4.0 or Nazis.
But then we have to talk about Microsoft too and if we go there, a linux fanboy will pop up followed closely by a mac user who was converted by using an iPod. Before you know it, we'll have a xbox 360 vs Ps3 vs Wii showcase over what's better Halo or Kill Zone which will be interrupted by someone that doesn't like shooters, so they'll bring up Final Fantasy with it's big hair and bigger sword.. btw the way, speaking of big, ever wonder which would win in a fight, a Star Destroyer from Star Wars or the Enterprise from Star Trek the Next Generation and everyone knows that when it comes down to it, Lara Croft's boobs are still bigger then Seoni's on the cover of Pathfinder 2, which leaves us back on topic.. kinda. :)
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Contributor
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The point that I am trying to make though is that there comes a time that for greater causes, sacrifices need to be made. Whereas I'd truly rather have the high quality printing, full color beautiful work that Paizo does, I also feel VERY strongly about the issue of work being sent overseas. Sure, it *looks* fantastic, but wouldn't you rather see Erik Mona and even Sr Suave himself, Mike Mcartor get pay increases because they were able to cut out the middle man of an overseas printing facility (if it were purely PDF, that is).
Hey, I've never been called suave before. Thanks Flynn. :)
I understand (and in some regards agree with) your concerns about jobs going overseas, but our messageboards aren't really the place to talk about that. It's a big, scary, political topic that would make a lot more sense on the messageboards for the Republican National Party or the Democratic National Party or large printing companies. Your time would be better spent writing your congressman or even asking a big printing corporation about why they cost so much.
We have to go with the cheapest printers we can find. Right now, those printers are in China.
Youtube already has Star Trek vs. Star Wars:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4
God bless the internet and bad editing.
That would be like having a thread that doesn't mention D&D 4.0 or Nazis.
That reminds me.... Talk like a pirate day is coming up again!
--Ray.|
Creative Director
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The other thread goes into the reasons we're printing our products in China. And Paizo's certainly not the only company that prints RPG products in China.
The simple fact of the matter is that we at Paizo have No Interest in printing black and white products on low quality paper. And unlike Wizards of the Coast, who have the distribution and market penetration that allows them to print their books in print runs of tens of thousands or more (and therefore pay less per book for printing), we really would have only one option for Pathfinder if we printed it elsewhere—we'd have to raise the cover price by 10 or 20 bucks. At which point, I'm afraid, that no one would buy the book.
All that said... we're certainly listening to our customers. We've heard that some of our readers take issue with us printing in China. Abusive messageboard posts that belabor the point or form perpetual windstorms of arguments are damaging to everyone's agendas. As is crossposting.
Outsourcing production overseas is certainly not something that's limited to RPG publishers. It's a fact of life, and will likely remain a fact of life as long as life remains a fact. If it's that much of a problem, you should probably either just buy the PDF versions of our products, or not buy our products at all.
For the love of God, Flynn, learn some basic economics.
I completely share your patriotic feeling, and I once thought like you (very little except emotional reaction), but the fact is that outsourcing benefits you, me, Paizo and everyone else. As customers we get a lower price, meaning we have more disposable income for other things (which raises our standard of living); Paizo makes more profit and keeps the majority of the profit of publishing since Chinese company profit accounts for a much smaller share of the price than the design/marketing/distribution that Paizo does); and yes, the Chinese benefit too, but then buy products from us in turn, benefiting our other industries.
Some Americans are laid off in the short term (in publishing, say), but very quickly migrate to even better-paying work (in finance, health care, IT). Look at the unemployment rate: a historically very low 4.2%; GDP per capita is the highest in the world at around $45,000 and rising faster than in other places like Europe and Japan. Trade really is a win-win-win situation for everyone, and the algebra behind that is readily available in any Macro 101 textbook. Your solution implies a policy of autarky, which is nonsense economics. Guess which country is the prime practitioner of "keep all our jobs at home"? North Korea. How wealthy are they? Yeah.
And as a point of etiquette you _are_ being rude by infesting unrelated threads with your fanaticism. Grow up.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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flymm,
I looked at your profile, you've posts going back to 2005,
If you weren't causing trouble, I'd assume, in two years on these boards you know how to look at other threads.
This means if you looked, you'd see the other threads.
Thus, the term 'troll' fits.
And as to the original trade quality. How do you adjust for bleed-through on images. I'm honestly curious.
Youtube already has Star Trek vs. Star Wars:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4
God bless the internet and bad editing.
That was so funny...
But the current discussion dosen't seems to be, so back to current seriousness...
I think it's a really tight looking product. I like it a lot.
Heath, I love you. I miss the days when the off-topic madness of the boards was you, being funny and quirky and filled with perfectness.
an I miss the Pett/Lougue arguements... we need another of those soon!I think it's a really tight looking product. I like it a lot.Heath, I love you. I miss the days when the off-topic madness of the boards was you, being funny and quirky and filled with perfectness.
Alas...I slew him...and by doing so destroyed my own legend. For what is Logue without Pett. I stand alone, a titan, and yet I feel so hollow. Pyhrric this victory...empty. I feel like Picasso after Matisse lay dead. I feel like Cronus bathed in the blood of his father. I feel like Lee after Sherman is defeated. I feel like Spielberg after Lucas embarrassed himself with the prequels. My life has no meaning now.
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CEO
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I'd love to print in the U.S. of A. Really, I would. Not only would it be faster, but shipping would be cheaper from the printer to Paizo. But the reality is that the U.S. printing business isn't even in the same universe as that from China. For the same quality, I would have to pay 2 to 3 times more money to have it printed than I am paying in China. 2 to 3 times! I can honestly say that if we hadn't of found the printer we are using in China, that Paizo would more than likely be out of business. And I am not over-exaggerating. It is hard enough to make money in the adventure game industry as it is right now, if our print costs were 2 to 3 times more expensive, we would just close up shop. A lot of smaller adventure game companies have switched to doing their own POD in-house, but the quality isn't anywhere near what I want Paizo to produce. So until the US figures out a way to at least make a respectable run at the Chinese printing costs, our products will be heading over there.
-Lisa
ok... King of the hill time... next argument is Logue/Jacobs
BLASPHEMER! How dare you compare me to the MASTER! Next you'll be posting such abominations as Logue/Leati, and I'll have to kill myself to satisfy the gods thanks to your abominable crime.
F!@@ing watch it Kirstov.
;-)
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ok... King of the hill time... next argument is Logue/Jacobs
BLASPHEMER! How dare you compare me to the MASTER! Next you'll be posting such abominations as Logue/Leati, and I'll have to kill myself to satisfy the gods thanks to your abominable crime.
f*#*ing watch it Kirstov.
;-)
you know the GF is not around this weekend, and we aren't playing until Sunday night.. I could always take the train into the city and we can continue this in person...
just kidding (but hey, if you're gaming..)
you know the GF is not around this weekend, and we aren't playing until Sunday night.. I could always take the train into the city and we can continue this in person...
just kidding (but hey, if you're gaming..)
Ha! Another weekend we shall throw the bones perhaps! I'm taking a trip to Seattle this weekend to crash the Paizo office! I do it at least once a year, just to be a pain.