I noticed that the GameMastery Modules are printed in China (I guess due to much lower costs there). Now, Chinese work environments are at times less than safe and workers payed extremely poor wages, and environmental protection is not a big thing in China. Did you check that out ?
I know I may be sounding like a hypocrite, with having the stuff delivered to me by mail, and not only as .pdf. (But I guess printing them at home/work is even worse... Trees are felled anyway, one way or the other.) But still, I wanted to voice my concern in that regard.
Stefan
I noticed that the GameMastery Modules are printed in China (I guess due to much lower costs there). Now, Chinese work environments are at times less than safe and workers payed extremely poor wages, and environmental protection is not a big thing in China. Did you check that out ?
I know I may be sounding like a hypocrite, with having the stuff delivered to me by mail, and not only as .pdf. (But I guess printing them at home/work is even worse... Trees are felled anyway, one way or the other.) But still, I wanted to voice my concern in that regard.Stefan
Yes, it's really sad just how much business we are sending to China to save money, and then lamenting that the US economy is suffering. The work conditions in China just make this even worse.
But not to get into political debates, I'll just add my voice that as a customer, it is important to me and I would appreciate it if Paizo would regularly review their printing options to see if printing in the US (or at least some country that has far better working conditions) ever becomes a reality (although it's probably moot because I figure you guys are going to reconsider your printing options on a regular basis anyway). I will state though that I would even pay a higher price to avoid printing in China. I realize principles often come with a price tag and am fine with that.
However, this is an issue with nearly all manufacturing in the US. My dad is a CFO at an auto parts supplier and hates it, but has had to open a factory in China just to keep the business afloat. So, Paizo can only do so much and still remain profitable.
I hear there might be higher levels of lead in these adventures. Also they may be a fire hazard. Try not to read them over an open flame.
In all seriousness China is a big place and I haven't heard about their being any problems with printed products. If there are any quality issues with these products I hope the people here will share it with us immediately.
I don't think it's an issue with product quality with the books unlike some of the food and other products we've heard about lately. I don't think we need to worry about toxic levels of melamine in Pathfinder to fake the protein levels - of course, I'm not planning on feeding my copies of Pathfinder to my pets. ;)
For me personally (and from what I interpret from the original poster) that it's more of a principle thing than an issue of quality. I don't like supporting that government and the typical working conditions, plus it gets us cheaper products while gutting the economy. However, it's also business reality right now, so there's probably not much to be done.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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If and when printing in the US is a viable option for us, we will strongly consider it. Until then (or until customers are willing to pay $30 or more for something like Pathfinder), we'll continue to look for the best bang for our customers' bucks. Right now that means printing in China.
--Erik
I´ve basically no concerns about printing (or manufacturing, or whatever) in China, as I see that there are things that cannot be done for acceptable prices in the U.S. (or Germany) today - generally, (relatively) low-complexity, labor-intensive work processes are economically not reasonable in the high-industrialized part of the world (I count the U.S. and Europe mostly into it, but this may leave out several countries - I am somewhat eurocentric in my world view.). That may lamentable, but is a fact of life.
And of course, I want acceptable prices for the things I buy. 30 $ for GameMastery Modules is out of question.
What I´m concerned about is the working conditions for the workers in China - the wages and the workplace conditions. And the environmental hazards that are handled somewhat nonchalantly in China sometimes. I don´t want to say that all chinese factories are modern slave-workers places and don´t give a damn about environmental damage, but there are huge differences. Some are, some aren´t.
So, I just wanted to voice my concerns about these things in a place where my voice is heard (thanks for your reply, Erik), and where it might make a difference.
Stefan
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I´ve basically no concerns about printing (or manufacturing, or whatever) in China, as I see that there are things that cannot be done for acceptable prices in the U.S. (or Germany) today - generally, (relatively) low-complexity, labor-intensive work processes are economically not reasonable in the high-industrialized part of the world (I count the U.S. and Europe mostly into it, but this may leave out several countries - I am somewhat eurocentric in my world view.). That may lamentable, but is a fact of life.
And of course, I want acceptable prices for the things I buy. 30 $ for GameMastery Modules is out of question.
What I´m concerned about is the working conditions for the workers in China - the wages and the workplace conditions. And the environmental hazards that are handled somewhat nonchalantly in China sometimes. I don´t want to say that all chinese factories are modern slave-workers places and don´t give a damn about environmental damage, but there are huge differences. Some are, some aren´t.
So, I just wanted to voice my concerns about these things in a place where my voice is heard (thanks for your reply, Erik), and where it might make a difference.
Stefan
Except that, if everyone paid the $30 or more for Pathfinder type issues, then Americans in the printing industry would be making more money and could lower prices a bit, and put that money back into OUR economy, meaning more people who can afford that extra priced Pathfinder. Unfortunately it's something everyone has to do across all industries and people are lazy.
Probably there's printers in Atlantic Canada (Newfoundland or New Brunswick most likely) that would offer reasonable prices (somewhere halfway between Chinese and American prices. Labout is cheaper here and you'd save overseas shipping to the distributor, but the wages are still more than China would use). The question is if they'd be able to handle the volume.
What I´m concerned about is the working conditions for the workers in China - the wages and the workplace conditions. And the environmental hazards that are handled somewhat nonchalantly in China sometimes. I don´t want to say that all chinese factories are modern slave-workers places and don´t give a damn about environmental damage, but there are huge differences. Some are, some aren´t.
Playing devil's advocate here...
But if these are legitimate concerns, isn't the notion of Role Playing a waste of time? There are real world injustices that need to be fought.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Probably there's printers in Atlantic Canada (Newfoundland or New Brunswick most likely) that would offer reasonable prices (somewhere halfway between Chinese and American prices. Labout is cheaper here and you'd save overseas shipping to the distributor, but the wages are still more than China would use). The question is if they'd be able to handle the volume.
We quoted at Canadian printers as well—you're on target with the pricing. Seriously, if we had to print Pathfinder in Canada or the US, I don't think it would have ever happened. We got enough price resistance at $19.99 (largely because people wanted to compare it to Dungeon).
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Chief Technical Officer
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One thing to keep in mind is that "low wages" is a relative concept.
A big chunk of China is rural farmland, and many factory workers earn more in a few months than many farmers make in a year. As I understand it, the industries actively recruit people from farming families to work in the factories; there, they're fed, housed, and, in many cases, educated, all the while sending money back to their families (who also benefit by having one less mouth to feed for the duration). So while it might be much less than an American worker would get for the same work, it also provides more than they might otherwise hope to ever have.
Price resistance I can imagine. DR 20/Rich price resistance.
I felt like a wastrel paying eleven/twelve bucks for a magazine. (I guilt easily about people in Africa and what not). The twenty PathFinder or GameMastery will take is gonna be harsh. If ever I find a place that carries it. Dragon was easy, Dungeon not so much. I have no idea where I can get Pathfinder and GameMastery.
Well, the situation isn't going to change unless the U.S. retreats from its current commitment to "free trade." (I use the expression in quotes because the WTO/GATT system as it exists is only committed to market economics in some aspects of the economy, such as allowing free movement of goods, and not others, such as ensuring that manufacturers in different countries are adhering to the same standards for labor practices so that the playing field is level.)
I have mixed feelings about farming out all of our manufacturing to China. I don't like engaging in China-bashing, because I think the problem is far more complex than one country trying to undercut another--they have a legitimate right to develop their economy and strive for the prosperity that most Americans (and Europeans) take for granted. I've lived over there, and gotten to know people who are working hard to get ahead, and also plenty of people who get screwed by the system. Right now, the country is kind of in a situation similar to the Industrial Revolution England described in Dickens's novels, with all of the hopes and all of the horrors.
The leadership in theory doesn't want people to be exploited beyond a certain point, and doesn't want the country to end up as one huge superfund site either. However, they have a huge, monolithic bureaucratic structure in which the people charged with preventing such abuses are also the ones charged with fueling economic development, and in many cases also the ones who stand to profit the most from blowing off environmental and labor regulations. The leaders are afraid of democracy, because they're afraid of a repeat of what happened in 1989. This means that they don't allow independent labor unions to form, and there is no democratic/legislative pressure to create effective independent regulatory bodies that will crack down on pollution, labor exploitation, and selling adulterated or shoddy products to consumers (at home or abroad). Both the government and ordinary people are well aware of the problems--there's just no institutional structure in place to deal with them effectively. (Don't let a few executions fool you--for every high profile crook that gets caught there are a hundred run of the mill ones that go undetected).
I don't want to knock Paizo's decision--just about every press in the US does the same thing--my students buy their textbooks, printed in China, at a far higher mark up than Paizo puts on its products. And I don't know specifically how Paizo's chosen contractor for this work does in terms of treating its labor or the environment. But let's not paint too rosy a picture of the average worker's life in China. A high percentage of factory labor are migrants from the interior provinces--they are farm girls, recruited by labor contractors who make all kinds of promises to their parents about how well they'll be treated--they pay the parents money up front and then the girls have to pay that back out of their wages. The labor contractor usually serves as an intermediary between workers and management, and provides food and housing for the workers (for a cut of their wages). They generally work long shifts (6 twelve hour shifts a week is not out of the ordinary), and are sometimes confined to their dorms when not working (several cases of fires recently in which workers died because the exits were locked). Lots of unreported cases of rape and sexual harassment, not to mention unfair withholding of wages and such. And as people without urban household registration, they are subject to harassment by the cops when they do get to leave their factory/dorm premises. I could go on, but you get the idea. These situations are not unknown in the U.S. (look at the situation of migrant farm workers in my home state of California and you'll find many similar abuses), but not as prevalent.
Now, printing is a much more skilled trade than lots of other factory work. The companies that make your clothes or your pre-painted plastic minis are probably employing a lot more unskilled labor and treating them worse. So if you're not boycotting the clothing stores in your local mall out of principle, I wouldn't worry about dropping your Pathfinder subscription. And if you are--well you'll be naked and have no game. Basically, there's not much we ordinary people can do about it, except maybe go throw rocks at the next big anti-WTO demonstration. I don't really think even that will have much impact except for a little broken glass.
Sorry for the extended preaching here--just don't want anyone to have any illusions.
....that explains why one hour after reading a module, I'm hungry for more....(ducks)
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Basically, there's not much we ordinary people can do about it, except maybe go throw rocks at the next big anti-WTO demonstration. I don't really think even that will have much impact except for a little broken glass....
All those WTO protesters (especially all those guys in Seattle a few years ago)...please remember that the local cops you're throwing rocks at have nothing to do with the WTO and they have children and wives and husbands and gaming groups they want to come home to and not have their brains bashed in by a protester....so....please protest....but please protest in peace and don't take your anger out on some 24 year old beat cop with a plexiglass shield who has no clue what the heck you're so worked up about.
What I´m concerned about is the working conditions for the workers in China - the wages and the workplace conditions. And the environmental hazards that are handled somewhat nonchalantly in China sometimes. I don´t want to say that all chinese factories are modern slave-workers places and don´t give a damn about environmental damage, but there are huge differences. Some are, some aren´t.Playing devil's advocate here...
But if these are legitimate concerns, isn't the notion of Role Playing a waste of time? There are real world injustices that need to be fought.
I don´t see how real world injustices should keep me from having a good time. Honestly, nobody alive could make all the injustice in the world disappear. But if everybody just tries to make the world just a little bit better where he can, much could change. In the end, I just try to soothe my conscience like the next guy.
Stefan
One thing to keep in mind is that "low wages" is a relative concept.
A big chunk of China is rural farmland, and many factory workers earn more in a few months than many farmers make in a year. As I understand it, the industries actively recruit people from farming families to work in the factories; there, they're fed, housed, and, in many cases, educated, all the while sending money back to their families (who also benefit by having one less mouth to feed for the duration). So while it might be much less than an American worker would get for the same work, it also provides more than they might otherwise hope to ever have.
Yes, that´s right. I don´t advocate giving chinese workers wages at the U.S. level. I just heard that there are workers that get low wages even for China. And that should not be the case.
Stefan
Next time I have to supervise a riot and I know that the protesters want to get on TV (and a peaceful riot is no way to get on TV) I'll go to the riot instigator and say:
"Hey dude, let's LARP this out, okay?"
"What?"
"Okay, you guys get all enraged and throw some rocks, but make sure you don't hit anything. Make sure the media is filming it."
"We'll then turn around and charge you guys with our batons and make a big deal out of arresting a few of you, maybe roughing you up a little. You can shake your fists and yell and stuff."
"Hmmmm...okay?"
"Right, once the media leaves, we'll just cut you guys loose and we'll shake hands. You get your media exposure, the media gets its action shots of rock throwing hooligans and roughshod cops and no one gets hurt and you guys go home and we go home. Sound good?"
"But....you're the symbol of oppression!"
"....sigh....."
Now, printing is a much more skilled trade than lots of other factory work. The companies that make your clothes or your pre-painted plastic minis are probably employing a lot more unskilled labor and treating them worse. So if you're not boycotting the clothing stores in your local mall out of principle, I wouldn't worry about dropping your Pathfinder subscription. And if you are--well you'll be naked and have no game. Basically, there's not much we ordinary people can do about it, except maybe go throw rocks at the next big anti-WTO demonstration. I don't really think even that will have much impact except for a little broken glass.
Thanks for your analysis of the situation in China. Now, I won´t cancel my subscription. I just wanted to ask how closely the "ethic work standards" are monitored. And I am clear that if I wrote to, say, Levi´s (I don´t know if they produce in China, it´s just an example), I won´t get any response at all. So I voiced my concern in a place where it might be heard.
And rockthrowing at cops won´t change a thing. Violent protests at the meetings of the mighty are just pointless.
Stefan
I wouldn't go so far as to say that. They can be exceedingly good exercise.
**Throws a large pre-painted mini through the window of a starbucks**
If and when printing in the US is a viable option for us, we will strongly consider it. Until then (or until customers are willing to pay $30 or more for something like Pathfinder), we'll continue to look for the best bang for our customers' bucks. Right now that means printing in China.
--Erik
Seriously, how much does a Chinease print worker producing Pathfinder get per hour(the actual guy on the floor)? Can he join a union? Does the printer for Pathfinder have an Occupational Health and Safety standard or Health fund or equivelent?
Since Paizo printed Dragon + Dungeon in the US and Pathfinder is now printed in China, I (we?)as a consientious gamer/customer feel that this is a legitamite querie?
I (we?)as a consientious gamer/customer feel that this is a legitamite querie?
The real legitamite queire is are you (we?) willing to pay and extra 10+ USD a month for Pathfinder. Are you?
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Chief Technical Officer
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Seriously, how much does a Chinease print worker producing Pathfinder get per hour(the actual guy on the floor)?
Seriously, do you think our printer would tell us that? Do you think we'd tell them if they asked how much our warehouse employees made?
I can tell you that they're ISO 9002 Standard Certified, and while that standard doesn't directly address working conditions, it does address process and quality standards that are hard to meet with poor working conditions.
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Here's my take on out-sourced manufacturing. It's pretty much our own fault.
The manufacturing industry in the U.S. is crippled by the fact that American workers expect ever-increasing wages for the same work. No matter how much money you pay someone in the U.S., he/she will almost immediately start whining for more.
Foreign companies don't seem to have this problem (I haven't worked directly with China, but I've worked with both Korean and Mexican companies). Workers work for considerably less over there. They have no concept of safety, don't get sick leave, and work as long as they need to to get the job done. For many of the plant-level workers I've spoken to, it's a point of pride.
If we cut wages, reduce paid leave and don't fret so much about triple-layer safety, then we can produce for less and perhaps start to be competitive on a global scale. But we're not going to do that. Until we do, more and more manufacturing is going to move outside of the U.S., and there's not a thing to be done about it.
If we're all willing to pay a lot more, then we can get our product from American workers. I'm sure that if everyone opted to pay $30 a month for Pathfinder, Paizo would happily find an American printer, and that'd be grand.
I'm not willing to pay any more than I have to, and I'm okay with some of my $$ going to China. Chinese workers have to feed their families too.
If the product is shoddily- built (and I'm not expecting that in the least), then I'll have something to complain about.
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Seriously, how much does a Chinease print worker producing Pathfinder get per hour(the actual guy on the floor)? Can he join a union? Does the printer for Pathfinder have an Occupational Health and Safety standard or Health fund or equivelent?
I can't speak for China, or for printers in general, but in the automotive industry, my Korean supervisor (when I was still ont he plant floor), who was an Engineer, was making about $1200 per month and working 70-80 hours a week, which was considerably less than I was makingfor 45 hours. The Koreans I spoke to had never really heard of unions as they exist in the U.S., and let's just say that we had some serious safety discussions when we first opened our plant. The Korean concept of safety is not what OSHA would consider safe, in the least.
I can only assume that the Chinese are similar - that was certainly yhe impression I was always given.
Here's my take on out-sourced manufacturing. It's pretty much our own fault.
The manufacturing industry in the U.S. is crippled by the fact that American workers expect ever-increasing wages for the same work. No matter how much money you pay someone in the U.S., he/she will almost immediately start whining for more.
Foreign companies don't seem to have this problem (I haven't worked directly with China, but I've worked with both Korean and Mexican companies). Workers work for considerably less over there. They have no concept of safety, don't get sick leave, and work as long as they need to to get the job done. For many of the plant-level workers I've spoken to, it's a point of pride.
If we cut wages, reduce paid leave and don't fret so much about triple-layer safety, then we can produce for less and perhaps start to be competitive on a global scale. But we're not going to do that. Until we do, more and more manufacturing is going to move outside of the U.S., and there's not a thing to be done about it.
If we're all willing to pay a lot more, then we can get our product from American workers. I'm sure that if everyone opted to pay $30 a month for Pathfinder, Paizo would happily find an American printer, and that'd be grand.
I'm not willing to pay any more than I have to, and I'm okay with some of my $$ going to China. Chinese workers have to feed their families too.
If the product is shoddily- built (and I'm not expecting that in the least), then I'll have something to complain about.
*sigh*
Are you actually suggesting that workers should be paid less and accept lower saftey standards.Then i suggest we start implementing that from the top down.Hell if we did that we could pay labor, skilled and un-skilled, more and products would still cost less.In my mind the people actually using their labor to produce a product are much more deserving of a lager part of the fruits of that labor than managment or the bigwigs who receive the majority.
Yes, chinese workers do have to feed their families and are therefore easy to opress.Like workers everywhere the "choice" is work for what you can or you and your children can starve.Its the same when workers try to use what limited means they have to improve pay and the work place.Starving children break strikes.That justifies nothing.Im not worried if i get a mini that has some lead paint on it.I am worried about people who are exposed to it all day at work though.
That said im sure i purchase products made in china and other places with standards id rather not support though i do try not to.Im not a fan of the standards in the US but i recognize that they are alot better than alot of other places.Things dont have to cost more for the consumer because a product is made locally if companies can accept a lower profit margin.I have no sources for this but id be willing to bet something made in china and sold in america is marked up astronomically.Mardi Gras:Made in China is a good documentary on the subject.
Disclaimer:This is not a rant about Paizo and i mean no offense to anyone.Nor is it aimed at stunty outside of the first sentance of my post.This is just a quick note on how i feel about free trade and the out sourcing of labor in general.
Personally I think this thread needs to be locked as the original question has been answered, and all that's left is ranting about how globalization will continue to put downward pressure on industrialized wages and highlight practices in developing nations that aren't considered appropriate anymore (but were acceptable back with we were developing into an industrialized nation...).
BTW, I really wish I had the money to buy some of the original Pathfinder Art at the Art Show at Gencon.
The real legitamite queire is are you (we?) willing to pay and extra 10+ USD a month for Pathfinder. Are you?
I was willing to and did pay $16 (australian) for Dragon and Dungeon every month since 2002. That price is approx. 3 to 4 times what an average magazine would cost me.
Pathfinder will probably cost me $A40 an issue and I will be most certainly purchasing the first issue to check it out BUT bear in mind it's the SAME company producing ONE magazine/book printed in china replacing TWO magazines printed in the USA, for nearly TWICE the US cover price of ONE of those magazines.
Yes, I paid for quality, twice a month, every month for the EXCELLENT work that went into both Dragon and Dungeon. I ecpect that level of quality to be present in Pathfinder and the price increase didn't bother me UNTIL I heard "printed in China".
Here's my take on out-sourced manufacturing. It's pretty much our own fault.
The manufacturing industry in the U.S. is crippled by the fact that American workers expect ever-increasing wages for the same work. No matter how much money you pay someone in the U.S., he/she will almost immediately start whining for more.
Since the cost of feeding my kid and and paying my bills continue to go up I expect more money for the same job because I'm not allowed to elect to NOT pay my bills.
Foreign companies don't seem to have this problem (I haven't worked directly with China, but I've worked with both Korean and Mexican companies). Workers work for considerably less over there. They have no concept of safety, don't get sick leave, and work as long as they need to to get the job done. For many of the plant-level workers I've spoken to, it's a point of pride.
Pardon me for expecting a safe workplace OR getting sick occasionally OR actually expecting a decent wage. Why am I so greedy?
If we cut wages, reduce paid leave and don't fret so much about triple-layer safety, then we can produce for less and perhaps start to be competitive on a global scale.
Why not just reintroduce slavery? Or maybe you can convince everybody that they should become "proud and happy" like all the little coloured nations we use to produce our plastic knic-knacs for 40c and hour! Next stop -"made in North Korea" for 20c an hour!
Look, here's the deal:
Paizo is doing the best it can in a world where cheap wins. Walmart anyone?
The fact is most of us would buy the magazine for $1 even if the printing at the bottom said, "Printed on pneumatically crushed seals with aborted fetus ink" and would avoid the same product like the plague if it was $50 and instead said, "Even your grandmother, your rabbi, and that crazy eco terrorist dude in the apartment across from you approve of our methods; please recycle immediately after reading."
If you still want to grouse about it, try avoiding any product coming to you from a country utilizing substandard (as we know it) practices as a political statement, and encourage others to do the same.
The real legitamite queire is are you (we?) willing to pay and extra 10+ USD a month for Pathfinder. Are you?I was willing to and did pay $16 (australian) for Dragon and Dungeon every month since 2002. That price is approx. 3 to 4 times what an average magazine would cost me.
Pathfinder will probably cost me $A40 an issue and I will be most certainly purchasing the first issue to check it out BUT bear in mind it's the SAME company producing ONE magazine/book printed in china replacing TWO magazines printed in the USA, for nearly TWICE the US cover price of ONE of those magazines.
Yes, I paid for quality, twice a month, every month for the EXCELLENT work that went into both Dragon and Dungeon. I ecpect that level of quality to be present in Pathfinder and the price increase didn't bother me UNTIL I heard "printed in China".
But you didn't answer the question. Presuming the quality level is there, would you be willing to pay 30% more (maybe $A53 or so???) to purchase this same book, only printed in some other country?
And if so, would enough of your fellow gamers do the same to make Pathfinder a financially viable option for Paizo?
But you didn't answer the question. Presuming the quality level is there, would you be willing to pay 30% more (maybe $A53 or so???) to purchase this same book, only printed in some other country?
And if so, would enough of your fellow gamers do the same to make Pathfinder a financially viable option for Paizo?
As it stands i'll be paying an extra 25% per monthon my gaming periodicals from Paizo. I used to pay $32 a month for BOTH Dragon and Dungeon. I'm assuming I'll be paying $40 for a SINGLE issue of Pathfinder. When page counts are taken into consideration, and this is on my assumption that Pathfinder basicly is a 96page Dungeon/Dragon hybrid, it works out as a 160%(give or take)increase.$40 for 96 pages compared to $32 for close on 200pages betwen Dragon and Dungeon.
Bang for my buck?
That's not what he asked.
Specifically:
If you were already going to buy Pathfinder at the current "Printed in China" price, would you instead be willing to buy it for the "Printed in the US" price. Question two, would enough gamers go the same route and choose the "Buy the printed in the Eurocentric country of choice" link instead to be a financially viable alternative?
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Since the cost of feeding my kid and and paying my bills continue to go up I expect more money for the same job because I'm not allowed to elect to NOT pay my bills.
Ah... but that's the viscious cycle. Companies charge more, workers expect more, companies pay more, companies charge more, workers expect more, lather, rinse, repeat.
Pardon me for expecting a safe workplace OR getting sick occasionally OR actually expecting a decent wage. Why am I so greedy?
See my response above to answer why you're so greedy.
I'm not advocating any of those changes. Things are the way they are, and no one wants to change them. But you can't complain about someone else's work environment, then buy their product, and expect to maintain much credibility with me. Buy their stuff... that's grand. Don't buy their stuff... also grand. Just make a choice and stick with it. Don't expect Paizo, or any other company, to make a moral choice you won't make. Everyone attacking Wizards right now is crying "vote with your pocketbook!" You don't like that Paizo is using poor, oppressed Chinese wage-slaves, then don't buy their products. If enough people do that, Paizo will have little choice but to charge $30 (american) and change printers. I just won't be one of the people forcing that particular decision.
If we cut wages, reduce paid leave and don't fret so much about triple-layer safety, then we can produce for less and perhaps start to be competitive on a global scale.
Why not just reintroduce slavery? Or maybe you can convince everybody that they should become "proud and happy" like all the little coloured nations we use to produce our plastic knic-knacs for 40c and hour! Next stop -"made in North Korea" for 20c an hour!
Now you're just getting nasty. AT NO TIME did I advocate the return of slavery.
I stated the impersonal economics of the situation. I wasn't getting personal.I get tired of the bleeding hearts raising a hue-and-cry about the myriad injustices in the world, and then buying products produced in third world nations, printing whole game books on non-recycled paper, driving gas-guzzling SUVs, and eating dolphin un-friendly tuna. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Take a stand or quit complaining.
That's not what he asked.
Specifically:
If you were already going to buy Pathfinder at the current "Printed in China" price, would you instead be willing to buy it for the "Printed in the US" price. Question two, would enough gamers go the same route and choose the "Buy the printed in the Eurocentric country of choice" link instead to be a financially viable alternative?
Havn't a clue what other gamers would or would not pay.
To further clarify my point. I will be paying an extra $8 (25%)above what I normally shell out a month on Paizo material. That used to break down as $16 for 96 pages. Now it's $40 for 96pages. and this is when the printing costs are slashed to (probably) a quarter of what they were for Dragon or Dungeon.
As it stands i WILL buy the first issue of Pathfinder. It may be more than $40 and as high as $50. It may not. THEN and ONLY THEN I will decide if it's worth purchasing on a regular basis.
I can tell you that they're ISO 9002 Standard Certified, and while that standard doesn't directly address working conditions, it does address process and quality standards that are hard to meet with poor working conditions.
That sounds ok to me, and I wil stop prestering you about it.
Stefan
A "no" would have been sufficient.
What is truly ridiculous is that a lot of companies (say wizards of the coast) try to charge almost the same price for an e-book as a printed book. With an e-book all you need to do is convert your InDesign or Quark file into a PDF and then add in your book marks, and upload it on the internet. There are no printing or shipping costs. They should be selling those things for about $5.00 each.
Of course then what might happen is that no one would bother buying printed books, and then they wouldn't sell enough to make them worth printing. However, I think Paizo should offer two choices for their Pathfinder subscribers. Choice 1 would be printed and e-book version (the current option), and choice two would be a strictly e-book subscription at a much reduced price.
This whole China thing is overblown. REALLY.
China is now one of the biggest finished goods producers in the world. Goods that used to be exported from Korea or Taiwan or Japan(remember Taiwan in the 1980s?), now have their parts made in various countries and they reach final assembly in China. Something as simple as a leather jacket has parts from 20 different countries; the country put on the jacket [as "made from"] is the one that does final assembly.
YES, people in China don't make as much money. YES, wages in China have grown by 10% PER YEAR for the past six years. The U.S. was industrialized in the early 1900s (around the advent of the car). The population in the U.S. used to be 90%+ rural (on the farms, out in the country), now its less than 10% rural. Would YOU deny China and India the opportunity to industrialize because it doesn't look the way you want it to?
Wages in China and India will continue to rise and then companies will look more to other countries within Africa. Over the long haul, wages of the workers of the world will increase to some point where it makes the same economic sense to make a factory in any country.
Anyhow, I applaud Paizo for printing in China (maybe people who are upset should get printers in the U.S. need to become more efficient or accept lower profits?). Printing in full color is very expensive and I definitely would not have ordered Pathfinder if it was $30 each book. If my players end up loving it, then I would pay that and more.
Now you're just getting nasty. AT NO TIME did I advocate the return of slavery.
I stated the impersonal economics of the situation. I wasn't getting personal.
I...
40c an hour.
Hands up everybody who'll work for 40c an hour? and hands up everyone who doesn't think that's slavery?
For the record I check where everything is made. I'll pay more for something made in Australia but I'll also go for items made in the US or Europe. I contribute to green causes because at the current rate this world will be turned to S--T for "our convenience"! I work in retail. I'm saddened to think that most of what we sell gets wasted and half-used because it's cheap and nobody gives a damn where it's made. I can't imagine ever owning an SUV. My wife calls me the Reccycle Nazi...
Trust me. I've chosen a side.
Trust me. I've chosen a side.
Nice.
I'm not sure if your guesses on the printing costs for Dungeon and Dragon compared to the printing costs for Pathfinder are anywhere near correct, but if you have a moral inclination not to purchase things made in certain countries, then what would the quality of the product matter?
I also realize that you've broken the price per page down quite nicely more than once in your posts, but after rereading them, I'm still not certain that you answered the question: Assuming the product meets your standards of quality, would you pay even more for Pathfinder printed in the US (or Australia for that matter) than printed in China?
Wow.
I can honestly say that I am embarrassed that this thread has gone this far.
If anyone at Paizo is still reading, let me be one of those that say "I support your business decisions." Even if I am not fond of them. (I am referring to the damn near inevitable switch to 4th Edition, here.)
It is near impossible to be successful in business with a conscience.
I work in the manufacturing industry and I am well aware of the difficult decisions that need to be made.
(ASIDE: My place of employment has damn near collapsed - financially - because it can't find a cheaper location for a product supply. The same piece that costs the company $X from Poland, would cost $8X from the US, and $1/3X from India. As it is, we have kept our suppliers from Poland only because we can't get the quality necessary from India. Why don't we go US made? Because our finished product is already 30% - 50% more than our competitors. So I do understand.)
I do wish things were different, but know full well that companies putting themselves in bankruptcy to try and change it won't make any difference.
40c an hour.Hands up everybody who'll work for 40c an hour? and hands up everyone who doesn't think that's slavery?
For the record I check where everything is made. I'll pay more for something made in Australia but I'll also go for items made in the US or Europe. I contribute to green causes because at the current rate this world will be turned to S--T for "our convenience"! I work in retail. I'm saddened to think that most of what we sell gets wasted and half-used because it's cheap and nobody gives a damn where it's made. I can't imagine ever owning an SUV. My wife calls me the Reccycle Nazi...
Trust me. I've chosen a side.
Uhmm, thanks for sharing.
I (we?)as a consientious gamer/customer feel that this is a legitamite querie?The real legitamite queire is are you (we?) willing to pay and extra 10+ USD a month for Pathfinder. Are you?
Where did you get this number?You think thats how much more each issue cost to be printed in the US or did you simply pull this number out of your ass?
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40c an hour.
Can I have a detailed analysis of the cost of living in China to go along with that lovely "per hour" figure?
My guess is, and I don't have any data to back it up, is that that 40c an hour goes a lot farther than it would in the U.S., or Australia, or Peru.It's fine to throw out inflamatory factoids like that, but if you take them out of their context, then they lose a lot of their bite.
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A lot of the supposed "labour-protection" that people want to introduce into developing countries is actually a form of trade protection by the back door - trying to place additional costs on them to price them out of the market. The "40c" point slightly passes the big issue by - people want to work in those factories for those wages because it beats the alternative - subsistence farming for probably even less. It might be seen as unfortunate in some places, but this actually represents progress. Developing counties should be allows to develop and expolit their resources in order to generate wealth for themselves and improve their standards of living. It annoys me slightly when people in developed countries would seem to want to close the door behind them and not let anyone else into the club, even if their motives are basically well-meaning.
I wish I hadn´t asked in the first place...
Where did you get this number?You think thats how much more each issue cost to be printed in the US or did you simply pull this number out of your ass?
Check the 5th post in this thread - by Erik Mona (who I would assume knows what he's talking about):
until customers are willing to pay $30 or more for something like Pathfinder
Pathfinder is currently $19.99 and Erik's guess of $30 as the possible difference - now my math's not that great but... I think that's about $10 difference, right?