I predicted this would happen as soon as the news about the cancelation of Dungeon and Dragon magazines was announced. It was only logical that WTOC made this move to create a situation where only they could benefit from this move. Alot of this has to do with what 4.0 presents. 4.0 is an effort to move gamers to a accept a new product with a new pricing model. I think they will fail in a number of ways and will tackle each separately.
Before Dungeon and Dragon magazines where canceled there was a split at WOTC. Some designers moved on to Paizo and frankly produced superior and more creative products. I will refer to them as the old guard going forward. The new guard consist of many of the authors and writers who shall we say are more likely to conform to what the business asks given the opportunity to build a new game system. Take a look at the work that has been done by the new creaotrs. None can compare with the inginuity of Monte Cook or the dedication of Eric Mona. These people were given the unenviable task of creating a new version of a popular game that didn't need to be reinvented. The business requirements for this new game include:
A subscription based business model.
Less print more online support.
An overall reengineering of the rules so that one will have adopt the new system to participate.
Remove Living Greyhawk from the scene and replace it with new living campaigns that will either rely on online gameplay or some elemental on online record keeping and benefits i.e. you need to subscribe or playing the game will be uncomfortable.
Preserve some of the aspects of the original game to lure the older dedicated gamer crowd with something that looks like the old game, but really isn't.
In most companies these tasks are set by product managers after analyzing the market and performing client interviews. From message boards, fellow gamers, and a bit of market analysis I gathering the following:
Older gamers are the cash cow. Put out good print products and for the most part most will buy them at a reasonable price. Treat them with respect and they will stay with you forever. For the most part they are trying to introduce the game to their kids, nieces, nephews, and sometimes students.
Gaming stores rely on books sales to stay in existance. These dens of gaming are the gathering places for gamers to play and socialize. Without print products they cannot exist.
Some Dungeons and Dragons players have moved on to WOW, many play both D&D and WOW, but very few WOW players play D&D.
Living Greyhawk is a decent way to introduce non gamers to D&D. It is structured so that sessions can be played quick and the players can be rewarded for playing. One normally sees the same faces at conventions. Recently I have seen more kids playing the game. I believe most of them have moved on to play D&D after becoming regular miniatures players.
What does this tell me? (BTW I am a career product manager for a company that delivers content in both print and online formats that require interactive rules and follow ever changing state and federal regulations) A conservative apporach would be to continue to create high quality print and miniature products. Maintain the "Living" campaigns and support them with as much material as possible. Slowly introduce tools to support these prodcts. Character creators would be a good start. Then introduce more robust character maintenance tools for Living players. Lastly, create tools for those who want to be Dungeon Masters. Once these tools have been built move the Dragon and Dungeon content to the online format complete with conversion of old material (from Dungeon and Dragon Magazines, as well as the books and modules for a subscription fee. Use 3.5 for the rules base or even better consolidate the best of the 3.5 rules into a 4.0 that is simlar to 3.5.
Why wasn't this approach taken? I believe the simple answer to this is time and money. I believe the 4.0 rules are simplified because it will take less developement and overhead to maintain the game online. I also believe that the Temple of Elemental Evil game was a test run for what they had in mind. Atari failed miserably because the product was riddled with bugs due to the complicity of the rules. Take this from someone who has managed and designed complicated rules based software - the less rules the easier it is to design and develope. It is also way cheaper to design.
I feel that the brand manager for Dungeons and Dragons has also hit the panic button. They want to have their cake and eat it to. The success of WOW and other online gaming protals has opened minds to the opportunities that this type of business presents. Herein lies the problem. WOW and D&D are two different kinds of games. WOW is an online community that is mechanical in and impersonal in nature. Your interface is a machine. You play the game with other but they are somwhere you are not. Your connection to them is electronic. Your interaction with them is through a computere generated you, but not you that you control within limits. You can choose to ignore the slights and actions of other players because you don't always have to play with that group. Another one is right around the corner. Dungeons and Dragons players are a community as well. Where they differ is in their interaction. They play together, but they also eat together, share stories together, and talk about their likes and dislikes. They often share details of their personal lives. There is alot of remember when moments, and did you ever play this or that from 1st edition. You may also talk about movies and books that you have read that are related to science fiction, fantasy, or adventure. At the end of a game everyone drives home instead of getting up from their PC. The story is the fuel that keeps the game going.
The marketing manager (that is the title at WOTC which is basically the same as a product manager in other industries) for Dungeons and Dragons must beleive that Dungeons and Dragons is the same as or similar enough to WOW to attempt to move the D&D players from an interactive face to face community game to an online portal where all ideas, interaction, and products are delivered. I don't believe that is the case and I believe that this individual has made a gross error in judgment.
Where have they gone wrong:
I remember when 3.0 was announced. I have to say I was excited. I had returned to D&D version 2 after a long absence. 3.0 had the advantage of being designed by a D&D household name in Monte Cook and a system that was the same yet different. The model that was adopted was that 2.o was limited in what you could do with it. Monsters couldn't advance to fit the needs of the DM and most classes were too rigid. For the most part the game was a hit. It was easily adopted and fun to play. People looked to both Dungeon and Dragon magazines for information and material. An announcement was made at GenCon to applause. Living Greyhawk began and thousands of gamers signed up and discovered that there was a viable gaming community that had been dormant for a long time. THe palyers quickly discovered that the 3.0 rules were somewhat unbalanced and shared this information with each other. A 3.5 version was soon released and even though it menat spending a pretty penny to replace the 3.0 materials, it was worth it as the game was improved and the designers reassured us that this was the last change for a long time.
Let's fast forward to today. Both Dungeon and Dragon magazine were canceled signalling the end of a what had been believed to be a beautiful friendship. A good deal of the original pariticpants that brilliantly created, delivered, and maintained quality product that had been refined to resemble a fine wine or a well brewed beer had moved on to other companies or projects bringing quality content to the masses under new banners. The primary source of information for the old guard was removed from circulation. Speculation was rife. WOTC (Wizards of the Clueless) responded with cryptic messages of what was to come. Something called Gleemax appeared to be the replacement and then a countdown appeared on the Dungeons and Dragons section of the WOTC site. Then messages from GenCon leaked to the internet through posts, emails or what have you. 4.0 is coming. But something was different this time. There wasn't applause or optimism. Like thieves in the night Wotc had removed the old game we loved and replaced it with something new. Of course they weren't really telling us what was new, but we have some clues. We saw a brief through the years video of the evolution of D&D from gamers with erasers for minis and confusion over what was what on the board to the apparent struggle of the seasoned group to discern the mechanics of a grapple, to a new mystery game in which the Dungeon Master (if that is what he is still called) is in front of a laptop. Strangley enough there was not interaction shown between the players and the DM. Then we were shown a demo of tools by two new individuals at WOTC. I was familiar with these people. I often called them the B team because their names were attached to the worst run that dragon and dungeon magazine had seen (pre Eric Mona and Paizo) and had written or produced many of the quickly released complete books. They were nervous about what they were about to present. It was almost as if they though the villagers were going to begin throwing rotten fruit at them. They showed us some what they called cool tools to design characters and manage them online. They showed us some DM tools as well. There were many things missing. What were the new rules? Why were new rules necessary? What was staying? What was going? All I saw was something that looked like you could create a character and move it around aboard. You had some limited tools to design your characters look, but that was about it. And, oh yeah, the DM can control the pieces light source. I haven't figured out why that was such an impressive feature to demonstrate.
What's the deal?
Wotc has cut off all communication for 4.0. You need to go to their website for all your information. It is a single point of entry for what you need to play 4.0 period. No magazines, no stores, nothing. You will go to them for all your gaming needs and information. Hmmm. As a pencil and paper guy this is not what I was looking for. D&D for me is about personal interaction. I like to see the looks on people's faces when they make a critical hit or their despair when they are the victim of a trap. I like to talk about the time so and so rolled 3 twenties in a row or barely escaper death because of all the buffs to party put of him. Its fun that way. The tools look cool, but even if I could create the dungeon layout online and manage everything there how are my players going to see it unless they are linked in with their own laptops. And what is so bad about the 3.5 rules? They are complicated, but so is the game. If you are a D&D player you should take pride in the fact that you can navigate these rules and others can't. Gamers are intelligent people. They take what is not material and give it form and rules of interaction. They don't dummy down the rules so a 4 year old can play it. If we did that then we wouldn't play the game into our later years. How many of you are going to tic tac toe conventions? I don't the game of chess getting dummied down so that people who aren't very good at it can start winning tournaments. Thats for Texas Hold Em. We are gamers. We are people who like to interact with other people in person. We maintain relationships with these people and talk about the past and revel in the present. Why are we being forced to accept something that feel unnatural. One simple reason - money.
Why 4.0 will fail.
Never underestimate the power of a brick and mortar shop. This was the lesson learned during the dotcom boom and its devestating bust. While thousands of companies that delivered service via the internet made and lost fortunes, Walmart became the largest company in the world. Kmart, Sears, and Macy's emerged from the ashes and continued to sell goods as they did for 50 or more years. Car dealerships still sell cars and kids still flock to the mall to buy things. More importantly, books may be sold over the internet, but they still represent a physical object that people own. They are transportable. They are what you read in a car, plane, or bus. They work when the power is out or the internet is down. The same can be said for miniatures. They are physical objects that can be bought, played with, traded, or sold. They are physical. People who for years have used books and miniatures to play a game are not going to move well to an online portal. Especially when they are insulted. It can sometimes take years for them to move. I know of companies that still use paper forms even though they can deliver them via email cheaper and faster. Why do they do this. Because they are comfortable with the stable system they have created to manage them. Much in the same way we have everything we need for 3.5 in print. We can always find these books no matter where we keep them. We can find old copies on the internet or buy them from a friend. They show that the game was played, that it exists. You have a reference for what was then and what is now. The online version of D&D is an attempt to remove this. To force players to relinquish the one thing we have which is our dollars with which we vote. We buy the products that are good and leave the and leave the bad ones on the shelves. 4.0 forces to pay just to play the game. First we will get the core books, then each month we will get a littlew more from the website. A new class here, a new monster there. The tools will be updated and pain will be felt when the software poorly converts your character sheet or dungeon files. We will have learnign curves and need to get used to gaming with people that you don't know and can't see. Your eyes will strain and your back will hurt from spending too much time in front of your PC. You will eat your meal alone, probably holding up the game to pay for the food that was just delivered, and so on. There will be no more voting with your dollars, just the thought of giving up the game altogether but unsubscribing, but wait you paid for a year and still have six months left, maybe things will get better. By the way if you unsbscribe all your information will be lost and you will have to start all over when you come back. I know these tricks - in the business world we build them into our products. They are called switching costs. They keep users subscribed to your product even when service is poor, the technology is outdated, new versions cause issues (learning curves and errors), and competitors are on your heals. The biggest problem with the WOTC startegy is simply this. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Most gamers will find that 4.0 promises alot, but delivers little. You'll hear things like remember when my fighter could grapple a troll? Remember when tieflings were rare because they were from other planes of existance. Remember when fighters were proficient with all martial weapons. I don't think we need another version. I know most gamers out there feel the same way. We will find ways to overcome this setback and play the game we know because we have invested time and money in it and we are not ready to surrender. We are not WOW players. We will interact with each other. We will find other things to spend our money on. We will invest more in the game as it is today. I know of groups of people that are already planning home games and going back to play the 3.5 materials they have accumulated over the years. For the most part I think that will have a grand time and not miss what Wotc has planned simply because they were not part of the plan to begin with.
4.0 probably won't attract many WOW players as it is slow and a far cry from the action one experiences with WOW. It will alienate the core gaming market and lost their support and revenue. It will attract some of the miniatures crowd who will probably be lost when parents realize the reason they bought their kids all the minis in the first place was so that they could play with their friends not strangers, particularly adults online. Teens and college kids will catch on and soon they will find themselves driven furhter underground than their predecessors who at least played in person. The players of Living Greyhawk will more then likely stay away from the new living game which will move them toward home games where they can finish out their characters progession. After a year WOTC will review how much revenue they gained with their new model. At that point they will probably look back and wonder what happened. The new look Dungeons and Dragons brand is neither a gaming software company or a game publisher anymore. Its something else. Hasbro will at its core competencies and probably sell it to someone who has more enthusiasm and experience with the game then its present stuards.
Personnally I'm going to stick to 3.5. I'll play out the Living Greyhawk campaing to its conclusion and then huddle with my friends to start a home campaign. I'm sure we'll enjoy the game just as much if not more then we do now. There will be plenty of games to play and stories to tell.
I'd like to know what everyone else out there thinks.
BTW - has anyone seen Binky?
I'd also like to add one more thing. What was the deal with the "European" guy stating at the end of the teaser "The game has stayed the same, The game has stayed the same." I'm sorry, but if the game was the same then there would be no need for a 3.5.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'd like to know what everyone else out there thinks.
Snoop around. I'm sure you'll find a thread or two with opinions already contained in them.
Short answer: your analysis is the same old armchair stuff people said about 3e, 3.5, the new mini's game, etc, etc, etc. Nothing really new, no special reason to believe your analysis over anyone else's, in short, nothing to really see. Time will tell, and if you're wrong, we can all dig this thread up and laugh at it then.
Given the amount of data about 4e, you might as well shake the mystic 8 ball and tell us what it says. It'll be a lot shorter and carry about the same weight.
Ahh Seabastian. Always so quick to point out the obvious. I just threw my two sense out there. I'm sorry I'm late to the game, but please don't hold it against me. I'm giving my opinion based on my experience. I took proven product managment philosophy and indusrty experience into account. I have been a product manager for over 10 years and built software and print products from nothing into generating millions of dollars in revenue.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Ahh Seabastian. Always so quick to point out the obvious. I just threw my two sense out there. I'm sorry I'm late to the game, but please don't hold it against me. I'm giving my opinion based on my experience. I took proven product managment philosophy and indusrty experience into account. I have been a product manager for over 10 years and built software and print products from nothing into generating millions of dollars in revenue.
For what products? This isn't software. Your analysis on why brick and mortar businesses succeeded is also disconnected from the reality of what happened during the dot com boom. There isn't some sort of primordial hard wired human instinct to go to a physical store to buy a physical product. Ask any hobby store, or heck, ask here at Paizo, and they will tell you that amazon is killing them on the core books.
The comparison with WoW is the same old superficial stuff. WotC is not trying to compete head to head with WoW; they aren't making a MMORPG (they already have one). They are trying to make D&D more appealing to people who grew up with and are naturally inclined to use the internet. The fact that there have been successful websites built around gaming communities and the distribution of gaming products (e.g., here, ENWorld, wizards.com) suggests that people in fact do go to such sites for gaming activities. Furthermore, the information given so far is that the online play is only a component and that the main focus is still tabletop. Yet, your "analysis" above suggests that you believe it is online only and that a fee is required. If you can't be bothered to get the facts right, why should your analysis be given any credit?
Ryan Dancey has a different opinion from you. Not only does he hold a similar job description, he's the one that actually brought out 3e and the OGL in the face of resistance such as this.
A new and innovative product is hard to understand and predict given all the data. Right now, you know a handful of things and are making a truckload of assumptions. In addition, the arguments you make based on past occurrences (e.g., the success of brick and mortar) lack any heft. Like I said, the 8-ball would be a better indicator.
Sebastion, I'm a little confused about your perception of the introduction of 3.0. I don't remember a wave of people having concerns about the gaming content moving to an online format. I also don't remember them shelling out a ton of money for the last version only 4 years before the new release was announced?
Maybe I'm confused. I remember alot of excitement about 3.0, especially because 2.0 was so bad. What cave were you hiding in?
I think the 2.0 to 3.0 was handled much better because it was a purely print product in which print was the medium of product delivery as well as communication. The present design team has wandered into unchartered waters. Traditionally they were publishers, not software designers. It seems to me that the publishers that wanted to publish quality material are now with Paizo, while the designers who want to design and tinker with rules and the online portal are still with Wotc. The publishers are still publishing and the designers are tinkering. The publishers will produce more content and stick with stories and products that are popular and pass on pushing the less successful lines. The designers will design and design and design regardless of what the market says. It's like beating a dead horse. 4.0 will come out. Then you'll get an update for 4.1 online in six installments over 12 months. You will get cryptic emails about how they are working hard and you'll love whats coming down the pike.
User behavior for these two mediums is never the same. The design team is attempting a balancing act by creating a hybrid product where the print is designed to mesh with the software. A user is expected to read the books and look for further instruction, enhancements, guidance, and tools from the software. Hybrid products like this never work well. Print and online publishing is an all or nothing proposal. They will either move their consumers to the online product and be successful or fail and go back to print. If their vision is a DM sitting at the table with a laptop while the players use their character sheets created using their online tool they have missed the mark. If they think that all the users will be logged in to their portal to play, then they are no longer a publisher, but an online gaming site. If they think that people will sit at the table and play with pen and paper, but get the rules they need to play off their site then they have an even bigger problem as the PC will need to be cosulted regularly to look up rules unless the group has an industrial printer and quality paper.
Like you said Sebastion - we'll see what happens. I'm sure we'll all laugh about this in the future. I could be totally wrong and Wotc could offer an amazing product. The problem is that I am not looking for a new product and am not too excited about a new one. Like I said it just doesn't feel the same as the 3.0 release.
Only time will tell.
I have little opinion of 4.0 one way or the other, as of yet. My main 'problem' with 4.0 is that I simply don't have good information as to what '4.0' will be like. Many of you good people are posting opinions for and against, and I haven't the slightest idea who's basing their opinions off of what information, nor if that information is even accurate.
The forum posts on the WoTC website and the Website itself was Not very informative. I'll pose one question to you all, and thank anyone who can knowledgeably answer it: will I be able to PRINT a paper copy of Dragon/Dungeon "magazines" from off the WoTC website to take to my Saturday game? OR, as some posters have implied or suggested, that this might not be possible, and that I will have to maintain a paid subscription, AND have my (internet accessible) computer on hand whenever I want to access the info during the game or elsewhere. Anyone have any ideas on this?
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Ahh Seabastian. Always so quick to point out the obvious. I just threw my two sense out there.
Yes you did. And it is probably a good thing that Mr. Grammar didn't come after you.
Sebastion, I'm a little confused about your perception of the introduction of 3.0. I don't remember a wave of people having concerns about the gaming content moving to an online format. I also don't remember them shelling out a ton of money for the last version only 4 years before the new release was announced?
Maybe I'm confused. I remember alot of excitement about 3.0, especially because 2.0 was so bad. What cave were you hiding in?
I don't think that Sebastian was living in a cave at the time. Perhaps you were but didn't know it.
There are a lot of people here that still utilize 2nd edition rules or some kind of hybrid of it. It also seems like there are a number of people who are proud that they "haven't ever purchased a 3.X book from WotC" (as though this is a good thing).
There was a lot of concern and controversy about it at the time. (There was also a lot of confusion as it was so different.) There seemed to be a lot of feeling that "It wasn't going to really be true D&D" or "What was good enough for me should be good enough for you" or similar arguments. A lot of it felt like "When I was your age..." -- basically "Back in my day, we had to add NEGATIVE numbers -- in our HEADS! -- and we LIKED it!" Actually there was a lot of controversy over 3.0 and also a lot for 3.5 -- "I have to buy the DMG and PHB AGAIN!!??" And for what it is worth -- I was still buying a lot of books for 2nd edition "4 years before the new release was announced".
The designers will design and design and design regardless of what the market says.
And this is a bad thing? I expect designers to break the mold and come up with things before I think I need them. I certainly didn't think that I needed a PS3 or a Blu Ray disk player, but apparently I do. :-)
My point is -- don't fault the designers for doing their job. If they do their job and come up with something really great, then I would like to know about it. Seems simple enough to me.
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I'll pose one question to you all, and thank anyone who can knowledgeably answer it: will I be able to PRINT a paper copy of Dragon/Dungeon "magazines" from off the WoTC website to take to my Saturday game? OR, as some posters have implied or suggested, that this might not be possible, and that I will have to maintain a paid subscription, AND have my (internet accessible) computer on hand whenever I want to access the info during the game or elsewhere. Anyone have any ideas on this?
I don't think that they have fully answered this yet. GentleGiant has been posting interviews and such that have had a lot of information, but I think that they are still working the kinks out. --> here
As near as I can tell, they are trying to make it so that you can get the information accessible off-line. Not sure what exactly that means but it looks like you should be able to download it somehow. Not sure much more than that.
I apologize for the bad grammar and spelling. Believe it or not I was trying to get all my ideas down quick before my wife found something for me to do for her (she's pregnant). I also shouldn't have made the assumption that eveyone felt the same way me and my friends did about the conversion from 2.0 to 3.0. I don't recall so much concern over the 2.0/3.0 switch compared to the 3.0/4.0 switch.
What the last post just demonstrated is that there are 2.0 players, there are 3.0/3.5 players, and soon there will be 4.0 players. Sounds like a fractured market if you ask me. I see alot of lost opportunity there.
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What the last post just demonstrated is that there are 2.0 players, there are 3.0/3.5 players, and soon there will be 4.0 players. Sounds like a fractured market if you ask me. I see alot of lost opportunity there.
And a lot of gained opportunity.
If 2nd edition people are still playing, they can still use a lot of the material printed to augment their game even if the stat blocks are not compatible at all. Same with 3.x people. If 4th edition brings in new interest, I don't see that as a bad thing.
"Gaming stores rely on books sales to stay in existance. These dens of gaming are the gathering places for gamers to play and socialize. Without print products they cannot exist."
Most brick and mortat game stores I’ve been to don’t care much about the books. I asked a few owners a while ago and the general consensus was that miniatures and cards are important. The D&D books are almost irrelevant to existence. That could be just in the Long Island, New York region.
Designer's dsigning for the sake of it is a bad thing. That is why there are product managers and marketing managers. They take what the market is looking for and translate it into requirements. i.e. the product and marketing managers recognize a problem or need in the market and build the concept of the product ofr designers. The designers are brought in to make the product real. They work out what it takes to build a product that meets the business requirements.
My first post details how Wotc translated the information they have into business requirements. I think that either their information is inaccurate or they are ignoring the market and trying to be something else. Companies that do that often fail to create a product their target market is looking for. They create something that neither meets thier clients needs and send a confusing message to the market they are attempting to enter.
The new D&D 4.0 is neither the tabletop game we play now and is not WOW. What is it them? It is an overengineered monster. A pig painted blue is not a smurf - its a pig. Plain and simple. It is a paper/online hybrid.
Here are some overengineered products that users were slow to adopt, are yet to be adopted, or have never been adopted:
Micorsoft Vista
Apple Macintosh
Hybrid Cars
Why do these products fall into this category? Because none of them address the primary business problem in the market. Microsoft Vista is unecessary because XP works just fine for the majority of users. The MAC will never replace PC's because it does too much for too much. Business applications that run on PC's are memory and performance lite and the cost of a MAC simply can't be justified. Hybrid cars don't promise enough efficiency to justify the cost so they haven't sold nearly as many as they thought they could.
D&D 4.0 is similar to the above products. Users are not looking for a new version. They are not too excited about its efficiency or delivery. Lastly, the market isn't too thrilled about spending more money for something that will deliver the same satisfaction.
Before everyone goes nuts please keep this in mind. I know that MAC's aren't meant for the business market and that hybrid's aren't intended to be for everyone at this point, but in both these cases the producers of these products found a stable market and continue to nurture that market. They did however miss the mark and never met the expectations they set for these products. I believe that WOTC will have the same experience with 4.0. They could create a niche of new wave gamers, nurture them, and fall short of the mark. They might return to their core customers in a more traditional offering. Then again they could sell the line entirely. I haven't decided what Vista is all about.
Again just my two cents.
I'd like to know what everyone else out there thinks.Snoop around. I'm sure you'll find a thread or two with opinions already contained in them.
Short answer: your analysis is the same old armchair stuff people said about 3e, 3.5, the new mini's game, etc, etc, etc. Nothing really new, no special reason to believe your analysis over anyone else's, in short, nothing to really see. Time will tell, and if you're wrong, we can all dig this thread up and laugh at it then.
Given the amount of data about 4e, you might as well shake the mystic 8 ball and tell us what it says. It'll be a lot shorter and carry about the same weight.
Realbrain's analysis is almost entirely based upon three elements:
1 It's not broke...
2 Move from print to online/subscription model
3 marketing approach ( It is still a long way away-- it is here)
Only the first of these could have been a possible complaint for 3e, 3.5 because the other 2 were not relevant. Further his main comment is about the move to an online/subsciption model from a market analysis point of view. This appears from the press info to be a part of 4th edition.
I thought the analysis of the marketing and attempt to switch media type was interesting. I agree we will wait and see the truth but thank-you RB for your input.
It seems there are as many blind supporters of 4th edition whatever it turns out to be as there are doomsayers
I also believe that the Temple of Elemental Evil game was a test run for what they had in mind. Atari failed miserably because the product was riddled with bugs due to the complicity of the rules.
No, the ToEE video game failed because of the following:
1. The release of the 3.5 ruleset about midway through development, requiring a complete overhaul of everything already coded that was changed by the revision. This led to things like a party of 3rd level PCs suffering a TPK from 8 gnolls (which personal game experience tells me cannot happen unless the PCs don't attack or are almost dead alread ). That and a monster listed as a CR 1/2 capable of TPKing a 9th level party of 6.
2. Atari refused to allow Troika Games (the developer, Atari was the publisher) additional time for testing and debugging, time that should have been given due to the rules revision. This is after Troika requested additional time, because they were encountering bugs related to the changed rules, bugs unrelated to rules complexity, but altered rules.
3. Atari requested a finished version early so they could release the game one month ahead of schedule. This version was a Beta version, as Troika had not completed their final release version, and as a result the early buyers of the game were paying to be beta testers.
As for the complexity of the rules, there are many in D&D that don't convert well to a computer game, and most of those were dropped from ToEE, as well as redundant/useless rules as well. For example, the skill list is much smaller than what the PHB has, because things like Climb and Jump are either unnecessary, or to difficult to implement. Attacking while prone would have required additional character animations, and was rather unimportant, so it was dropped. Dodge was simplified to work better (IIRC, it activated for the first monster you hit/that hit you each round). Power Attack doesn't reset every round, but remains how you set it until you change it.
Even for a video game so tied to D&D like Temple of Elemental Evil, rules that cause problems in coding would either be dropped (how many people actually bother to attack while prone?), or simplified so as to limit possible bugs as much as possible.
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The comparison with WoW is the same old superficial stuff. WotC is not trying to compete head to head with WoW; they aren't making a MMORPG (they already have one). They are trying to make D&D more appealing to people who grew up with and are naturally inclined to use the internet. The fact that there have been successful websites built around gaming communities and the distribution of gaming products (e.g., here, ENWorld, wizards.com) suggests that people in fact do go to such sites for gaming activities.
I can agree with most of what you said, but the only thing I'd like to point out is the people that are searching the web for materials are looking for FREE information.
You might want to separate your analysis of 4E from your analysis of the Digital Initiative. What I've seen and my own deductions based on Star Wars Saga Edition, I suspect that 4E will be a pretty cool, robust ruleset.
The Digital Initiative, however, smacks of all that stuff that so gloriously went down in flames under the name "Master Tools" -- anybody besides me remember articles about how awesome the little yowling troll icon was? Except with the Digital Initiative, you also get to pay $10/month for it instead of buying the software once, and you have to hope that the WotC website happens to be up when you want to play. We know how reliable that is.
I must admit some personal bias -- I -want- the Digital Initiative to fail because I am bitter about them having killed Dragon and Dungeon for it. So some of this may be wishful thinking. But even so, I don't pay for subscription content on websites and if I have anything to say about it I never will -- and my own experiences as a web content provider (I run two webcomics) suggest to me that I am far from being the only one.
Thus, 4E will probably be fine -- but I expect the D.I. will go down in flames.
-The Gneech
I just got the news that Living Greyhawk will end at the same time 4.0 is released. In matter of fact all the Living Campaigns will be wrapped up and replaced with Living Forgotten Realms. I think its a bold move. Alienate your most loyal customers. I don't know what to say. I hope there are enough Realms fans to replace the LG players that will go underground.
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I'd like to know what everyone else out there thinks.Short answer: your analysis is the same old armchair stuff people said about 3e, 3.5, the new mini's game, etc, etc, etc. Nothing really new, no special reason to believe your analysis over anyone else's, in short, nothing to really see. Time will tell, and if you're wrong, we can all dig this thread up and laugh at it then.
Given the amount of data about 4e, you might as well shake the mystic 8 ball and tell us what it says. It'll be a lot shorter and carry about the same weight.
Personally, I'm thankful for Real Brain providing some professional perspective in a thorough and insightful manner. His P.O.V. is a welcome contribution to the discussion as we try to make sense of this all.
I do agree with you that it is way too early to judge 4e itself – whether that’s to rally behind it or curse it.
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I just got the news that Living Greyhawk will end at the same time 4.0 is released. In matter of fact all the Living Campaigns will be wrapped up and replaced with Living Forgotten Realms. I think its a bold move. Alienate your most loyal customers. I don't know what to say. I hope there are enough Realms fans to replace the LG players that will go underground.
Just to note, Living City(2nd Ed) was based in Forgotten Realms before Living Greyhawk, so they might be going back to the Realms to regain everyone they lost when they changed to Living Greyhawk.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Just to note, Living City(2nd Ed) was based in Forgotten Realms before Living Greyhawk, so they might be going back to the Realms to regain everyone they lost when they changed to Living Greyhawk.
That would be a pretty foolish move, since Living Greyhawk was a far more widely played campaign than Living City ever was.
Any idea how many Living City players were lost? I don't think there were too many. Living Greyhawk was very successful. We'll see if Living Forgotten Realms will be as popular. Come to think of it many people bailed when Forgotten Realms got all teh support in second edition. It took 3.o and Living Greyhawk to get the ball rolling again. Could history repeat itself?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That would be a pretty foolish move, since Living Greyhawk was a far more widely played campaign than Living City ever was.
Just to note, Living City(2nd Ed) was based in Forgotten Realms before Living Greyhawk, so they might be going back to the Realms to regain everyone they lost when they changed to Living Greyhawk.
Unless they thought that many people would follow into the new Living Campaign and that new people would join because it was starting new. Not having any access to data about the population that plays Living Greyhawk, I'm at a loss to say what will really happen.
Just to note, Living City(2nd Ed) was based in Forgotten Realms before Living Greyhawk, so they might be going back to the Realms to regain everyone they lost when they changed to Living Greyhawk.
That would be a pretty foolish move, since Living Greyhawk was a far more widely played campaign than Living City ever was.
I'm with Russ.
First, Living City (as I clearly recall) pretty much collapsed on its own -- LG ended up filling that void.
And yes, LG is spectacularly successful by any reasonable standard (though not without its own warts). Ditching it would be evidence of psychosis and severe brain injury.
My two cents :)
In response to the notion that it is a bad thing to let designers design w/o management directives (in response to market analysis)...
Would any of the Star Wars movies have gotten made if George Lucas had to limit his creative juices to what the studios believed we the market wanted to see?
Designers should design--if what they design is unappealing, consumers won't support it. That's the way a free market economy works.
If 2nd edition people are still playing, they can still use a lot of the material printed to augment their game even if the stat blocks are not compatible at all.
As a 2nd edition DM still playing, this is true. Conversion really sucks though. Time consuming and tedious. If there were ever one thing I could force upon WotC, it'd be that they couldn't release a new edition without thinking about their past supporters by giving them a bi-directional conversion guide before they move on. And NO, the 3e conversion guide doesn't cut it. It's only one-directional. The irony of converting the conversion guide makes my head hurt.
... Older gamers are the cash cow.I'd like to know what everyone else out there thinks. ...
As a cash cow (starting D&D about a year ago and have my collection complete now) I think exactly the same way (except the fact part from your business experience was in part a "gut" part here), so I'm really interested in how the market will accept this coup from wotc.
I expect the "D&D market" to split - a new market will arise with new and part of the old players - and a large old market - a 3.5 market - will stay "true". As you said, There is SO MUCH 3.5 stuff, that everyone of us can play until he can't lift the dice anymore from old age. And - in an ironic way - I always hoped, that all my collections (see "cash cow") will sometime be played :).
Back to topic: my question ist not: will 4.0 be a success, my first interest is: will there be enough companies willing to support 3.5 for a longer time, because there a millions (?don't have any idea how many there are at all) of custumors for 3.5 products already out there. I would - especially in the next years when 4.0 has to find its base :-) Never got a better chance to win a market: Free rules, loads of players, no official support ...
Apple Macintosh
The MAC will never replace PC's because it does too much for too much. Business applications that run on PC's are memory and performance lite and the cost of a MAC simply can't be justified.
off topic, but: a) your calculator is damaged, b) you don't have any idea about these machines. Hope your other theories are better funded.
Gurps your on the right track. Many things can happen here. As you stated, it all depends on the companies that produce 3.5 material. if they are brave and continue to produce qualtiy products (can you hear me Paizo) they can hold on to and increase their share of the D&D market. I say brave, because it is a risky proposition. It is also the kind of event that only takes place once or twice in a companies lifetime. Right now its the difference between letting larger companies make the rules (i.e. Microsoft) and conform or make the rules yourself (i.e. Apple). Both can coexist, but once you break away, your on your own and it takes a strong will to succeed. I think Paizo has what it takes. I also think there are other companies out there as well like Goodman Games that can tough it out with 3.5 and make it work (and make money as well).
I also think that this would put some real fear into Wotc. Its like saying "Hey the emperor has no clothes!" Unless 4.0 blows away 3.5 completely and the online tools are so cutting edge as to replace the traditional way a 30 year old game has been played, the DI and 4.0 will be a bust. I believe neither are disruptive technologies (a term used for products that leapfrog existing product so as to offer something so new, so productive, that it completely replaces the originial in a matter of years - see the IPOD).
I'd also like to point out a new flaw that I see in 4.0. There are 30 levels. Living Greyhawk will be retired and replaced by Living Forgotten Realms that will be 4.0. I hope the Living Realms players enjoy updating their paperwork 20+ times for a single character over the 15 it takes now for LG. I wonder what it would be like to level every 3rd adventure instead of every 6th. I believe this will be the biggest issue with 4.0 players. That is unless it's also handled by the online tool which of course one has to pay for.
In regards to the MAC, please let me know when I can expect my Dell Laptop issued by my company will be replaced with a MAC. I rather have the MAC.
Hybrid cars don't promise enough efficiency to justify the cost so they haven't sold nearly as many as they thought they could.
D&D 4.0 is similar to the above products.
...They did however miss the mark and never met the expectations they set for these products.
I wouldn't call a product that has a three-month back order due to overwhelming consumer demand a failure or "not meeting expectations." If 4.0 sells even a tenth as well as the Toyota Prius alone, WotC will have to rent warehouses to store the money. Perhaps you need better, more thought out, examples.
Needed or not, 4.0 is here. Don't presume that your tastes mirror the country's and you'll be better off.
Your right I am making assumptions. These assumptions are based on consumer feedback that is readily available.
Do some research. I suggest you sign up for more smessage boards like Enworld, Gleemax, GoodmanGames, and Yahoo Groups for Living Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. It will give you a great deal of perspective.
BTW - consumers have to wait for Prius's because they don't meet most states emission standards and are being retooled. Sounds like D&D 3.0. Another similarity perhaps?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Your right I am making assumptions. These assumptions are based on consumer feedback that is readily available.
Huh. I had no idea that reading messageboards was a legitimate way to do "research.". But, I guess as long as you disregard opinions that differ from yours and refrain from employing a statistical method of measuring the accuracy of the "research" that should be fine.
Also, your conspiracy story linking the ToEE video game to 3e really demonstrates that you are out of your depth.
I guess you missed the part where the online portion of 4E was OPTIONAL.
consumers have to wait for Prius's because they don't meet most states emission standards and are being retooled
What in the world are you talking about? Can you cite a source for this? One that also doesn't have news about Bigfoot and UFOs, I mean?
BTW - consumers have to wait for Prius's because they don't meet most states emission standards and are being retooled.
Randomly fabricating "evidence" is not proof. The Prius exceeds all state emission regulations by a very wide margin, including California which has the strictest standard in the US. In fact, the Prius has such low emissions that they are allowed in the High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lane with only one passenger.
You are rapidly proving that your "research" is worthless, though I think Sebastian has done the best job in replying to that. Remember, wishing and ranting doesn't magically make your opinions into fact.
BTW - consumers have to wait for Prius's because they don't meet most states emission standards and are being retooled. Sounds like D&D 3.0. Another similarity perhaps?
I'm in the same boat as you as far as wanting to stick with 3.5 and hoping Paizo keeps producing materials in 3.5 rules for years to come. However, after a quote like that maybe you should change your sign in name... I think you're missing the word 'small' in there somewhere.
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You are rapidly proving that your "research" is worthless, though I think Sebastian has done the best job in replying to that.
Hmmm.... You know, according to his profile, Sebastion is CE. What if The Real Brain's posts are just Sebastion's under a different log on intended to discredit the rest of those who disagree with him. It's a conspiracy I tell you! Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean their not out to get you!
I'm going to put my tinfoil hat on, sit with back to the wall and keep an eye on you all. The New World Order won't get me!
And, oh yeah, the DM can control the pieces light source. I haven't figured out why that was such an impressive feature to demonstrate.
I have. Determining who can see what is a royal pain, and any tool which helps this is great. That is true regardless of what edition is being played.
"Gaming stores rely on books sales to stay in existance. These dens of gaming are the gathering places for gamers to play and socialize. Without print products they cannot exist."
Most brick and mortat game stores I’ve been to don’t care much about the books. I asked a few owners a while ago and the general consensus was that miniatures and cards are important. The D&D books are almost irrelevant to existence. That could be just in the Long Island, New York region.
Nope. It is the same here, in central California. Minis and cards make the bulk of the money. Books bring people into the store, but do not make nearly as much.
The Prius can't pass the Georgia State emissions test because when it idles it uses far more gas then when its moving. The idle test is very important because it reveals how much the car's emission would be in traffic. The state of California is seriously looking at this and the federal government is performing research to determine whether the Prius and other hybrids are truly fuel efficient in congested cities and areas where long commutes can be expected like Boston and New York. Toyota is concerned enough about this to attempt to address the issue in as many cars as they can before they are released to the market. For all of you out there this means that if you are a hippy out in the styx, your Prius is the most fuel efficient car in the world. If you are a hippy who actually works and has an hour commute to go 15 miles, then your Prius is no more fuel efficient then a SUV. In order for a hybrid to take advantage of the electric component of its power it needs to consume gas to get to a cruising speed. Traffic does not allow this to occur so the car consumes mostly gas if its average speed is less then 20 miles per hour.
This discussion isn't about Prius's though. I am not a conspiracy theorist. These are my thoughts based on the information I have at my disposal. If you think that data gathered by observing message boards is insufficient then you are all doing yourselves a disservice and basically saying that your opinions don't matter.
The Prius can't pass the Georgia State emissions test because when it idles it uses far more gas then when its moving. The idle test is very important because it reveals how much the car's emission would be in traffic. The state of California is seriously looking at this and the federal government is performing research to determine whether the Prius and other hybrids are truly fuel efficient in congested cities and areas where long commutes can be expected like Boston and New York. Toyota is concerned enough about this to attempt to address the issue in as many cars as they can before they are released to the market. For all of you out there this means that if you are a hippy out in the styx, your Prius is the most fuel efficient car in the world. If you are a hippy who actually works and has an hour commute to go 15 miles, then your Prius is no more fuel efficient then a SUV. In order for a hybrid to take advantage of the electric component of its power it needs to consume gas to get to a cruising speed. Traffic does not allow this to occur so the car consumes mostly gas if its average speed is less then 20 miles per hour.
Leaving aside the spurious name-calling, your argument is entirely based on incorrect information.
First, when a Prius "idles", the internal combustion engine (ICE) turns off, so it's producing no pollutants whatsoever. This is why the EPA initially rated it at 60 MPG: they use emissions as a basis for estimating fuel usage, and no emissions make that more difficult. Also, the Prius is more fuel-efficient at sub-20 MPH than over 55 MPH.
Second, the Prius, being less than half the weight of the SUV, requires much less energy to get it moving and most of that energy comes from the battery due to the design of the drivetrain. If the Prius driver and the SUV driver both accelerate at the same rate, the SUV will need more energy, hence gasoline, to overcome inertia and get it up to the same speed. Basic physics, dood.
Third, by now you've realized that I am a "hippy Prius driver" to use your term. I drive 12 miles to work in stop-and-go traffic and get 55-60 MPG, depending on weather. If I gun the car off the line and drive like a typical SUV driver, I get around 35-40 MPG. If you had actually researched your claim, you would know this is typical and even lower than most Prius drivers are able to achieve.
I can't wait for your next alias and fresh bout of trolling. Should be equally entertaining and just as wrong.
I am not a conspiracy theorist.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
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The Prius can't pass the Georgia State emissions test because when it idles it uses far more gas then when its moving. The idle test is very important because it reveals how much the car's emission would be in traffic. The state of California is seriously looking at this and the federal government is performing research to determine whether the Prius and other hybrids are truly fuel efficient in congested cities and areas where long commutes can be expected like Boston and New York. Toyota is concerned enough about this to attempt to address the issue in as many cars as they can before they are released to the market. For all of you out there this means that if you are a hippy out in the styx, your Prius is the most fuel efficient car in the world. If you are a hippy who actually works and has an hour commute to go 15 miles, then your Prius is no more fuel efficient then a SUV. In order for a hybrid to take advantage of the electric component of its power it needs to consume gas to get to a cruising speed. Traffic does not allow this to occur so the car consumes mostly gas if its average speed is less then 20 miles per hour.Leaving aside the spurious name-calling, your argument is entirely based on incorrect information.
First, when a Prius "idles", the internal combustion engine (ICE) turns off, so it's producing no pollutants whatsoever. This is why the EPA initially rated it at 60 MPG: they use emissions as a basis for estimating fuel usage, and no emissions make that more difficult. Also, the Prius is more fuel-efficient at sub-20 MPH than over 55 MPH.
Second, the Prius, being less than half the weight of the SUV, requires much less energy to get it moving and most of that energy comes from the battery due to the design of the drivetrain. If the Prius driver and the SUV driver both accelerate at the same rate, the SUV will need more energy, hence gasoline, to overcome inertia and get it up to the same speed. Basic physics, dood....
That Tim Kosinski strikes again. Making a name for himself here, eh? I find him to be very trust-worthy and never uneducated in his posts. end sarcasm.
WotC boards want you back Tim the Trollman.|
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The Prius can't pass the Georgia State emissions test because when it idles it uses far more gas then when its moving. The idle test is very important because it reveals how much the car's emission would be in traffic. The state of California is seriously looking at this and the federal government is performing research to determine whether the Prius and other hybrids are truly fuel efficient in congested cities and areas where long commutes can be expected like Boston and New York. Toyota is concerned enough about this to attempt to address the issue in as many cars as they can before they are released to the market. For all of you out there this means that if you are a hippy out in the styx, your Prius is the most fuel efficient car in the world. If you are a hippy who actually works and has an hour commute to go 15 miles, then your Prius is no more fuel efficient then a SUV. In order for a hybrid to take advantage of the electric component of its power it needs to consume gas to get to a cruising speed. Traffic does not allow this to occur so the car consumes mostly gas if its average speed is less then 20 miles per hour.
Fule efficiency is basically the amount of work (in this case mileage) you get out of your engine per amount of fuel used (usually measured in gallons). Emissions control deals with the amount of pollutants expended by a vehicle's engine. Also, in order for a hybrid engine to be allowed, it's gas-powered portion would have to comply with the standards already in place for normal ICEs, including emissions.
Edit: Wow! Other folks had the same idea to call Mr. Kosinksi on his facts, all about the same time. It's like Deja-vu, all over again.
Thank you all for an interesting read. Thank you brain for taking the time to state your thoughts coherently. Thank you to your critics and detractors for insisting on rigour.
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I think the OP's post was well-written.
I am of the "wait and see" crowd...we simply do not know enough to make any kind of solid judgement.
I do beleive there will be aspects of the DI that will be cool. Check out RPTOOLS.NET for an example of what people are doing, for free no less, towards the same ends. Because there are ways to implement the same tools without violating any copyright laws, I am sure that WoTC will fail where 3rd party programmers will excel. RPtools certainly needs work, but there are other tools, like fantasygrounds.com that are more polished.
As far as as Dungeon and Dragon magazines, I was a lifetime subscriber, even for a decade where I din't play. The one thing that kept my subscriptions was the "collector" aspect. I have a bookshelf with EVERY issue of Dragon and Dungeon. It has officially ended, my last issues were placed on the shelf this weekend. Its hard to beleive that a company who made a name for itself via collectibles (magic the gathering) doesn't get it.
Someone else posted about online subscriptions. Yeah, I don't pay for them either. I pay my MMO subscription, but thats it. But to pay a fee for reading? No thanks. Pay a fee to play D&D online? No thanks, I do that already for free (see above).
The core books for 4.0? Let's be honest here. The improvement from 2.0 to 3.0 was huge, and I am a beleiver in the d20 mechanic. As long as 4.0 is more 3.99 than a whole new system, I'll probably upgrade as long as its a quality product. But as long as we are being honest, those of us who lived through the 1st ed. to 2nd edition transition know that its possible to "upgrade" to a far inferior product.