The Real Brain's page

Is there any chance that Yugoloth's will appear in Golarian?

1607 - I guess I was early.

Never

Hey everyone-

Sorry to hear there's some disappointment about Eamonvale. I can't speak with total authority, but since the entire thing was edited and laid out for 3.5, we still have all that material. My suspicion, having not yet discussed it with Bill, is that we won't let that version gather dust, but will make every effort to get it to you guys in some form. I suspect at a minimum you'll see a 3.5 NPC appendix, if not more. If Bill isn't interested, I'll layout a simple PDF and host it myself <shamlessplug> with all the other free web enhancements on www.darkloch.com. </shamelessplug> I feel pretty strongly that this is the right way to go, and I'm sorry you feel otherwise. Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis... times change, and we must change with them.

Nate, a.k.a. Mac, a.k.a. the author

Sorry Mac, but thats not good enough. No 3.5 no sale. Too bad you drank the cool aid. What makes it worse is that you made us wait so long for it.

I just received my Spamalot prizes too. I opened the box with my wife and we had a great laugh. Like the last poster, I thought the T-shirt was great. I'm not sure if I should eat the spam or put it on a shelf to look at. I can't thank you guys enough. Any chance you could have more contests either online or in the Pathfinder monthly editions?

Nope. I won't switch to 4.0. As soon as a publisher switches to 4.0 I'm done with them. I just said goodbye to Goodman Games after they announced that all their game supplements will be for the 4.0 system. If paizo switches, then I will no longer purchase their products either.

I'm with you Captain. I'll stay if it's 3.5, 3.75, Pathfinder or whatever you want to call it.

If you start a "Living" campaign. I'll be the first top volunteer and help out as much as I can.

Is there any chance a "Living Pathfinder" campaign similar to other living campaigns will be released?

There are a ton of soon to be displaced Living Greyhawk players looking for something with a Greyhawk feel that is not Forgotten Realms.

Many of my fellow gamers in New England have picked up Pathfinder and like what they see.

Think of how many Pathifinder sourcebooks could be sold.

Erik et al. thanks for the information. I'm glad that this rumor can be put to rest.

It is unfortunate that WOTC has decided to sunset the Greyhawk setting. They have lost me and many of my fellow gamers here in New England as consumers for this reason.

A rumor has been floating aroung that WOTC's license or copyright on Greyhawk material will revert to its original creator - Gary Gygax - at some point in the near future. Some speculate that this is the reason why WOTC is phasing out (or more accuratey snuffing out) references to the Greyhawk universe.

Can anyone out there shed some light on this rumor.

I myself don't believe it, but I have heard is so many times from Living Greyhawk players that I am would like to know if anyone else has heard anything similar.

Sounds like alot of paperwork. If you level up every other session then you have to update your character sheet every other session. That could be alot of work, then again, that's how they will hook the kids on the DI. Take kids who want instant gratification, think everything should be done for them, and barely have the ability to read and write and vola! you have now created demand for an online tool that does all the work to maintain a character.

The next phase will be to shift those users to an even newer interface (4.5 perhaps, maybe 5.0) that will do ALL the work for the player. They can just play the game at home, wait that's an MMPORG.

4.DOH just just plain stinks.

What the Heck! THat last post was in Response to Sebastions "I Love It."

Could someone post the entire article again for those of us without access to the D&D Insider login? Thank you.

Flip Flop Flippity Flop Flop Flippity Flop

Boy, you play every angle. Tomorrow you'll say 4.0 sucks because there's only one color of Dragon.

maliszew wrote:

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

Sorry to be difficult - what is IP?

Intellectual Property -- basically the store of ideas/concepts that WotC owns exclusively and others cannot use without a license. For example, the mind flayer and the beholder are WotC IP, since no other publishers can use those monsters without permission. On the other hand, most other 3E monsters are no longer exclusive WotC IP, since they were opened through the D20 SRD.

Flippity-Flop-Flip-Flip-Floppity-Flip

Way to hedge your bet.

No fair - technical problem here. I was responding to Sebastion's last post.

Flippity-Flop

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

Sorry to be difficult - what is IP?

Intellectual Property -- basically the store of ideas/concepts that WotC owns exclusively and others cannot use without a license. For example, the mind flayer and the beholder are WotC IP, since no other publishers can use those monsters without permission. On the other hand, most other 3E monsters are no longer exclusive WotC IP, since they were opened through the D20 SRD.

Flippity-Flop-Flip-Flip-Floppity-Flip

Way to hedge your bet.

I like the Great Wheel cosmology, but I'm not bothered by the changes. It sounds like an interesting new setup, and that's why it works for me (and why the Forgotten Realms cosmology doesn't, or at least wouldn't if I ever used that setting).

To me, these changes strengthen the case for a Greyhawk campaign setting which makes the Great Wheel the specific cosmology of that setting, or perhaps even a Planescape sourcebook.

I was wondering when you come around. That goes for KnightErrantJr. too.

I think Chris Perkins did an admirable job of answering the questions within the constraints of what he can reveal so far. Yes, some of the answers seemed canned or incomplete, but the release is still pretty far off and iit doesn't surprise me that there's a limit to how much he can say at this point.

I don't have any inside information regard the 4th Edition, but in my opinion it seems evident that they are trying to take some of the more player-friendly options of other games and work them into D&D. Since games like World of Warcraft draw so heavily on Dungeons and Dragons in the first place (even plagaristically so--they're based on D&D at least as much as D&D was based on the works of Tolkien), it seems to make sense for D&D to adopt the more successful rules ideas of third party games that used D&D for inspiration. It's a bit like the the OGL working in macro scale: others have introduced innovations of game design based on D&D concepts, and now D&D is evolving to include some of the better ideas. Now, Chris Perkins can't say it like that even if I'm right, but he did acknowledge that other games have introduced new design ideas, and that WotC has "learned a few things" from them.

I don't want to see D&D be based on an MMORPG rules system, but I don't mind if the designers look at what has been done with those games and incorporate a handful of ideas that will also work well for D&D. If that makes it easier for them to make a successful D&D MMORPG to usurp the World of Warcraft behemoth, I'm OK with that, too; it'll bring D&D more into the mainstream and make our game of physical dice and tabletop social interaction readily accessible to more potential players who come to know the rules and terminology through the online world.

Anyway, back to Chris Perkins: he's one of the greatest D&D adventure designers I've ever met and he knows the game inside and out. He's definately not WotC's "B-team", in my opinion, and I trust him to keep D&D fun. I don't know if I can convince my players to switch to 4E,...

Blind faith is nothing new. Chris is "B" team. He lacks the integrity it takes to pass on an opportunity that spells nothing but a return to the 2nd edition dark times for D&D. His splat book work and Dungeon and Dragon Magazine stewardship led to a decline in both 3.0/3.5 and Dungeon and Dragon magazine circulation. The Dungeon and Dragon magazine decline was slowed and reversed by Paizo. For that WOTC pulled the plug. He loves to say that D&D 3.5 is cumbersome and overloaded with rules. Those rules didn't exist till he went on his merry way at the behest of WOTC loading us with splat books full of fluff that increased player options to a level of absurdity.

I could care less what he has to say. It has no substance. 4.0 will push D&D to the fringe again as to be irrelevant. If you think that the WOW and LOTR people aren't going to combat this in some way, shape, or form, your mistaken. They are probably laughing their asses off right now.

Chris Perkins is the problem with the "B" team. His contributions to 3.0/3.5 was to author crummy splat books that were all fluff and no playtesting and managing Dungeon and Dragon Magazines in the final dark days before Eric Mona and Paizo resurrected them.

These comments are very telling:

GameSpy: Do the rules feel videogame-friendly and ripe for translation to the electronic realm and were they in any way created with that sort of thing in mind?

Christopher Perkins: Fourth Edition was created to be the best tabletop role-playing game on the market. The staff assigned to build the new game aren't professional videogame designers, but it does seem that the rules could be translated to the "electronic realm" with relative ease.

i.e. The business requirement for D&D 4.0 is to create a new set of rules that plays like an MMO so that it can be converted to an MMO once we are confortable that the rules work.

Chris, your not hiding anything. You and the "B" team like thieves in the night swapped the 3.0/3.5 tabletop rules for MMO rules and called it 4.0. Nothing can change that fact. If you think we won't notice, you'll find out the hard way when 4.o flops.

The interview should have been called the "To Be Determined" interview with GameSpy. I suspect that they already know what the price point is for Gleemax and the DnDInsider, but are holding out till the dust settles over the 4.0 announcement.

My experience tells me that the price for DnDInsider will be considered high to the average D&D player. (do you want fires, I mean splat books with your order).

Their strategy here is to smash 3.0/3.5 gaming by killing off the Living Campaigns and seeing if they can pick up the gamers who can't organize their own home campaigns with the DnDInsider.

Not much in the interview. Don't expect more. The "B" team that is left at WOTC couldn't manage this release if they were given a manual. They will feel the sting of the pavement when they are thrown out on their asses in 18 months when 4.0 is a bust.

To add to my earlier post, I am of the opinion that 4.0 will be a GOOD thing. I am in favor of it. I do NOT like having it released after only 3 years of 3.5, nor am I eager for a heavily on-line component to the game, but I do look forward to the improvements that 4.0 will make in the overall game.

Let's face it friends, as much as I REALLY DO ENJOY 3.5; it is drowning in a sea of Rules, useless support books, and mediocre quality. 3.5 is no longer the game we loved in 2004. For example, we have two DMG's in 3.5, while they managed to get everything you needed into one in all past editions. All of this DILUTING down of the game through new rule books/tomes/manuals/etc. have made the game extremely difficult to comprehend in its entirety, and every munchkin player I know is continually jockying to make use of the latest fad race/prestige class to create the 'indestructible character' that I have to try in desparation to keep up with. Ultimately I am finding that D&D is begining to resemble the YUGIO card game type of mentality with players trying to "create" the most "Uber" type of indestructible card, to the detriment of the game as a whole. WoTC is feeding directly into it.
I have players in my group that stagger into my game sessions with more game books than lawyers drag into court. And if most lawyers don't know the ins and outs of the state law code books, than your typical d&d players certainly don't, myself included. The Munchkins now "own" 3.5, and it's sadly time to SCRAP it. I don't like that it is time for 3.5 to go. I believe that WoTC/Hasbro is to blame.

I sincerely hope that the designers of the game and whoever is making the decisions regarding product development and production will learn how to correctly PACE THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE GAME. The reason that 1st edition lasted 12 years is that you didn't get expansion books EVERY MONTH which eventually will convolute the game beyond recognition. An example is Gardening: if the leaves and fruit of a tree develop beyond what the...

You should keep ion mind that the same people who bogged down 3.5 are the B team that's bringing you 4.0. You'll be in a rule quagmire in 3 years with 4.0 as you are with 3.5.

Occam wrote:

OK, this is going to come off a lot harsher than it's meant, so hold the flames at least until you see where I'm going....

I didn't see anything harsh in your response, so no flames to follow. :) I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me and I sometimes will change my mind if convinced.

My challenge with WotC is not so much their gaming practices. I see no Borg. I know most of the WotC staff are gamers (some of them previously Paizo employees). As I said, I'm actually looking forward to 4.0. My challenge is with WotC's Public Relations.

I actually work in marketing - nothing on the level of Wizards, but I feel I know a little something about it. I also know that a large company with a skilled marketing staff doesn't necessarily make the right decisions. And WotC seems to be doing everything all wrong.

I understand the excitement of "secrets", time clocks, and all that, but I think they are heading the wrong direction with it and creating a sense of alienation. This can be sensed in the attacks against them in the various forums.

I understand that Paizo has ideas and information they aren't sharing with us. But you rarely hear Paizo saying something like, "We've got something big coming up in the Pathfinder world that's going to change everything and make all past adventures obsolete, but we can't tell you about that now. Keep playing the old setting and we'll talk a little bit about it as we go." And then following up with vague glimpses into the "big change". Admittedly the Pathfinder world is fairly new, but I don't see the current crew doing anything like that.

Regarding the Dragon/Dungeon announcement: Paizo had something to look forward to immediately following the announcement. WotC said, "Just wait. We've got a lot of big changes we can't tell you about." They also said, "We think people are looking more to a digital model." They say this despite that digital books as big business have failed and bookstores are bigger than ever. Most...

I completely agree. I have spent the last 10 years of my career as a prodcut manager and haven't seen many established product mutilated as much as the Dungeons and Dragons brand has been. A successful update of a product relies heavily on market research to determine what features the product should preserve and what features should be changed. (WOTC likes to say evolve which is inaccurate and a disgusting word in my profession as it implies that the product has an organic mind of its own, that it simply wills itseld into a new thing. This term is often used when the product management team "wins - it") It also relies heavily on the message that marketing presents. perception is everything when a new product or version thereof is released. It gets people in the door.

WOTC has failed miserably in both regards and will suffer accordingly. They are relying on a mix of print and electronic publishing for a traditonally pen and paper game that relies on imagination as its engine. There is no amount of market intelligence that presents this message. At the same time WOTC marketing consists of an announcement at GenCon where they send a mixed message that basically equates to "The king is dead, Long live the King." In conjunction with the announcement they have put up a cryptic countdown clock on their primary internet portal. Wo and behold post announcement some details are realeased. Many piss off the old guard, most just leave people confused, none tell a tale of a product that is an improvement over the old. This is the worst marketing I have ever seen. I have approved many marketing campaigns in my time and never has one been so cryptic and confusing. Definately a turn off.

There are no complete books planned in the future. The PHB, DMG, and MM will be released incomplete. That is to say that the PHB will be missing something we all know and love like Druids and Gnomes (well not everybody loves them) and the MM will have some things missing like fey or yetis or storm giants. A year from the initial release a PHB II and MM II will be released with the missing content. They will say "now you can have gnomes and druids yeahhhhh!" Then the DMGII will be released and have the rules for something new. Every 6 months to a year an additional book will be release so that instead of complete this and complete that you'll have PHB I, PHB II, PHB III. This way WOTC doesn't lose sales by introducing a book like Complete Village Idiot that noones wants. What they do is relase PHB II which happens to include the rules to play an idiot and a bunch of other stuff like the mechanics for "turkey baster fighter."

A pig painted blue is still a pig.

8 classes in PHB, fighter, rogue, wizard and cleric for certain (confirmed by Logan Bonner on ENWorld) - More in 4E, but just 8 in PHB

PHB II, DMG II, MM II a year after 4E releases, new ones every year after that (GenCon WotC seminar)

Wizards can cast 25th level spells (Rodney Thompson's blog on WotC site)

Lots of stuff in this thread - http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204119

If this is correct then I don't think anyone has to worry about Gnomes and Druids. This is just WOTC's way of saying "after you've purchased the Core 4th edition books you have to spring more money for the Player's Handbook II for races and clasess that you thought would be there." Have no fear WOTC will take care of you. If you start a write in campaign now, the Aasimar may make it into the PHB III. Check out the thread. It seems that WOTC has planned the release of each race, class, weapon, spell, and monster into future releases of the Player's Handbook and Monster Manual. No more complete books, just more PHB's and MM's.

Enjoy

Hasbro's stock price was going up prior to the China lead paint scandal. I removed the temporary negative impact from my statement as I don't have time to explain stock valuation in addition to product strategy and management. Sebastian - I am impressed. You did some research so I know that you at least make an effort. If you want to know more about Hasbro and their individual units call the investor relations office or their headquarters in Rhode Island. If you ask them "There has been some buzz lately about an online initiative related to the Dungeons and Dragons brand. As your past initiatives in this area have been had limited success I would like to know how you believe the cost of this initiaive will effect the units and by extension, the companies bottom line. The concern that the investment for this type of product offering is high and may be funded by profitable units to support the lagging contribution of another." You'll be amazed how much information you can get if you go down this path. Also check out the analyst reports on yahoo finance if you can spend a couple of bucks.

My past posts have tackled the subject of improper language and subject matter that have appeared in Paizo products. I was against language that was printed in a story that appear in a recent Dragon Magazine. Words that are not allowed in this message board appeared in the magazine. I also took issue with that Dragon and Dungeon magazine had always appeared to not allow adult content to appear in the magazine in the past. Sebastion and company decided it was time to tell me to grow up. My concern was that if the magazine prints adult material they will have adults as an audience. If that was the case I would not allow my children to read the magazine as I thought it was inappropriate. The thread was soon hijacked by Sebastion and co to lecture me on the harsh realtities of life and how a kid has to learn some time. Of course that's what NAMBLA says too.

I would like to point out the things that I did not know before I posted that the community has provided:

- Many have the impression that the 4.0 rules set resembles the one used for the online D&D game. (There is even more evidence if you look at posts on the RPGA boards.)
- Players fall into a number of categories:
can't wait to have 4.0, nothing else matters
have 3.5, won't buy 4.0
have 3.5. skeptical of 4.0, waiting to see
4.0 tools look cool so I'm for 4.0
Forgotten Realms is the main focus of 4.0, so I want 4.0

BTW - in the product management field these are called personas. They say alot about who your customers are. If WOTC followed product management methodology they would be trying to figure out how many users are in each category and focus on either the largest group or the group with the most influence for their intial release to insure market penetration. I think the majority of customers (60%?) fall into the have 3.5 works for me don't need 4.0 and the I love Forgotten Realms so I'll buy 4.0 categories. I can't say how they are split probably 60-40 one way or the other. I'd bet that where the majority falls will determine the success/ failure of 4.0.

Anyway this post once again has been hijacked by the mob and is useless. For those that came to the table to review my analysis and respond intelligently, thanks. I thank you for you comments and constructive criticism. Those that wanted to agrue about the gas mileage of an idleing Prius or how flawed my logic is without bringing your own - this thread is all yours, after all I can just start a new one.

Moff, Muff, Muppet whatever your name is, I am not here to entertain you. I simply put out a post on why I think WOTC's strategy will net them less revenue then their alternatives. I took the additional step on what I believe their motivations are. I haven't heard any type of analysis from you except to bash me because you don't agree with my analysis. That's your perogative, but don't tell me I'm wrong when you can't prove your right. You have as much information at your disposal as I have, but I don't believe you or your buddy Sebastion has gone to the well. Have you looked as Hasbro's quarterly and annual reports. Do you know what WOTC's contribution to their bottom line is. Both of you seem to think that if the stock goes up that the D&D brand has something to do with it. How about the stock is going up because Hasbro has the Transformers line and the toys are a hit. WOTC contribution to Hasbro's bottom line has been flat since the introduction of 3.0. Minis has insured that it wouldn't decrease but the smart money says that this unit is stagnent. They needed something new and 4.0 and an online presence was the best they could come up with. Numbers don't lie.

Sebastion, Muffit please tell us all what your sources are. Please tell everyone the insiders you know that are showing you that 4.0 will be a hit. Show this community how WOTC is right. How their strategy will actually increase their revenue over the next ten years. How the customers they have alienated will come back and buy their products.

Show us. Oh sorry you can't. All you'll do is break this email into little pieces and attack each point without looking at the big picture. Don't worry tomorrow your boss might let you use the cash register at Micky D's.

I don't call myself the real brain for nothing.

Sebastion - please tell all of us who you work for, what your education level is, your marital status, your political affilation, where you live, and what you do for a living. Under your standard we cannot take you seriously until you do.

As for my facts you can't prove anything I have written is incorrect until you take the time to provide your sources.

Your information is as good as mine.

Burn baby burn.

Sebastian - this is not work. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I have a real job that pays me real money. It is in the field of Product Management. I figured it was worth sharing my insight with the rest of the members of this board. If you want to chat about my credibility, religious beliefs, morales, and such start a new thread instead of posting silly posts about how I don't know anything. I don't know you and am not going to waste my time trying to figure out who you are or what your motivations are. For all I know you could be a shill for WOTC poo pooing my threads because your job is on the line if 4.0 fails. Or maybe your life revolves around D&D and you feel threatened when I write that the company that has provided you with rules and stories that your life revolves around is making a strategic blunder that could negatively effect the game you know and love. I could go on and on, but why waste time. I have asked people what they think not what they think about me. I start fires and watch them burn to see where the wind blows on these boards. Right now I would say by the way the mob Sebastian has created is writing there is plenty of money to be had from the D&D community as there are many still towing the WOTC party line.

Will you nominate me. It may be dramatic, but its true. I hate to say this after I enjoyed 3.0. 3.5, and especially Living Greyhawk, but I want to see WOTC fail at their latest endeavor. They have angered me in so many ways. Here's a short list:

-Released TOEE PC game with a ton of bugs so that it was virtually unplayable till a third party created a patch.
-Replaced 3.0 with 3.5 after a short time
-Compounded the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion by continuing to release 3.0 books when 3.5 came out (this includes Monster Manual 2, Fiend Folio, and Book of Vile Darkness)
-After the 4th complete book book the rest were just garbage. They then had the nerve to say that 4.0 had to come because 3.5 was too complicated - a situation they caused with more rulebooks.
-Released Magic Item Compenium and Spell Compendium even though neither book is complete and is barely referencable.
-Release even more crappy books like Heroes of Battle
-They canceled Dungeon and Dragon Magazines.
-They killed Living Greyhawk.

Does anyone out there work for a company that treats its customers this way? If I did I would leave and have on several occasions because it doesn't bode well. It shows that WOTC is a disorganized lot, a headless monster that is reactive instead of proactive.

I am one customer that is moving on. There's just no reason for me to buy any more of their products. I don't need 4.0 and from what I have seen there are plenty of other people out there who feel the same way to play with.

Thanks Patricio for your response and thank you for reading my entire post. It's rather cumbersome and I didn't have much time to clean it up.

I have read your post and I fully agree with your committment to the D20 rules system and the dedication to imagination that drives the game. The D20 rules set allowed the felixibility to build all types of characters and NPC's for all types of situations and settings. It also allowed player's to quickly move from one genre to another with a foundation set in a standard rule set. 4.0 will certainly lack this.

You are also correct in your reasoning behind the motivation for a release to 4.0. It is money. I also believe a bit of ego is mixed in with this as well. I believe the latest set of designers at WOTC want to put their own stamp on the game and show that they can see their names in lights up there with Gygaz, Cook, Arneson, and Mona. The sad thing is that they cheated. They clearly took the 4.0 rules set from MMPORG. By doing this they have removed the fleixbility that we enjoyed to build fantasy settings and ordered it so that all things are unique. Elves can do X, Dwarves can do Y, Halfings can do Z, and gnomes are useless so they can kiss their butts goodbye. Some people will like this systme, but the old guys like myself and you will stick with what works to build felxible, fun, imaginitive settings for our games.

I have already gathered a number of like minded individuals for a home campaign that we will start at the conclusion of the Living Greyhawk campaign. When I originally presented the idea to my colleagues they were hesitant as they wanted to see what 4.0 would look like. As news came out (see the blurbs on the new D&D site on combat with a dragon and classes revisitied and you'll see what I am talking about) they realised why they played D&D and not WOW or any other online game. They are also happy about not having to spend any more money on rule books. I'm starting to think that the best thing that WOTC has done in the last couple of years was to stop 3.5 support. It means an end to adding rules and testing new ones for the sake of 4.0 development.

The naysayers out there will attack you every chance they get. They will say "4.0 hasn't even been released yet" or "all games come to an end." Like the grasshopper who didn't prepare for the coming winter, they will find themselves out it the cold. When they cast away their gaming group for the cold light of a PC monitor they will find that the gaming site is down. When a bug in the system removed all their magic items in the last upgrade, they will find customer support busy. When the site finally shuts down because the cost of running 4.0 vs. returning to the proven rules set occurs to WOTC (or whoever has the license by then), that person too will post on a messageboard and shout "Why?" Noone will be there to hear because while the 4.0 players were online, the 3.5 players brought together their friends and family and played the game the way they wanted to and the way it was supposed to be played. They won't feel like they betrayed because they didn't spend a ton of money to play and promote the game so that a company could fill its coffers. They used their imaginations and ran with it.

Patricio, I wish you the best in your new found freedom from WOTC and I am sure your home campaign will bring you great joy. Part of the fun in running a campaign is building it with or withour online tools. I think of 4.0 as an opportunity to return to the roots of the game we enjoy and will keep playing it to preserve what is so great about the game. As the saying goes "this too will pass."

The Prius can't pass the Georgia State emissions test because when it idles it uses far more gas then when its moving. The idle test is very important because it reveals how much the car's emission would be in traffic. The state of California is seriously looking at this and the federal government is performing research to determine whether the Prius and other hybrids are truly fuel efficient in congested cities and areas where long commutes can be expected like Boston and New York. Toyota is concerned enough about this to attempt to address the issue in as many cars as they can before they are released to the market. For all of you out there this means that if you are a hippy out in the styx, your Prius is the most fuel efficient car in the world. If you are a hippy who actually works and has an hour commute to go 15 miles, then your Prius is no more fuel efficient then a SUV. In order for a hybrid to take advantage of the electric component of its power it needs to consume gas to get to a cruising speed. Traffic does not allow this to occur so the car consumes mostly gas if its average speed is less then 20 miles per hour.

This discussion isn't about Prius's though. I am not a conspiracy theorist. These are my thoughts based on the information I have at my disposal. If you think that data gathered by observing message boards is insufficient then you are all doing yourselves a disservice and basically saying that your opinions don't matter.

Your right I am making assumptions. These assumptions are based on consumer feedback that is readily available.

Do some research. I suggest you sign up for more smessage boards like Enworld, Gleemax, GoodmanGames, and Yahoo Groups for Living Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. It will give you a great deal of perspective.

BTW - consumers have to wait for Prius's because they don't meet most states emission standards and are being retooled. Sounds like D&D 3.0. Another similarity perhaps?

Gurps your on the right track. Many things can happen here. As you stated, it all depends on the companies that produce 3.5 material. if they are brave and continue to produce qualtiy products (can you hear me Paizo) they can hold on to and increase their share of the D&D market. I say brave, because it is a risky proposition. It is also the kind of event that only takes place once or twice in a companies lifetime. Right now its the difference between letting larger companies make the rules (i.e. Microsoft) and conform or make the rules yourself (i.e. Apple). Both can coexist, but once you break away, your on your own and it takes a strong will to succeed. I think Paizo has what it takes. I also think there are other companies out there as well like Goodman Games that can tough it out with 3.5 and make it work (and make money as well).

I also think that this would put some real fear into Wotc. Its like saying "Hey the emperor has no clothes!" Unless 4.0 blows away 3.5 completely and the online tools are so cutting edge as to replace the traditional way a 30 year old game has been played, the DI and 4.0 will be a bust. I believe neither are disruptive technologies (a term used for products that leapfrog existing product so as to offer something so new, so productive, that it completely replaces the originial in a matter of years - see the IPOD).

I'd also like to point out a new flaw that I see in 4.0. There are 30 levels. Living Greyhawk will be retired and replaced by Living Forgotten Realms that will be 4.0. I hope the Living Realms players enjoy updating their paperwork 20+ times for a single character over the 15 it takes now for LG. I wonder what it would be like to level every 3rd adventure instead of every 6th. I believe this will be the biggest issue with 4.0 players. That is unless it's also handled by the online tool which of course one has to pay for.

In regards to the MAC, please let me know when I can expect my Dell Laptop issued by my company will be replaced with a MAC. I rather have the MAC.

Any idea how many Living City players were lost? I don't think there were too many. Living Greyhawk was very successful. We'll see if Living Forgotten Realms will be as popular. Come to think of it many people bailed when Forgotten Realms got all teh support in second edition. It took 3.o and Living Greyhawk to get the ball rolling again. Could history repeat itself?

I just got the news that Living Greyhawk will end at the same time 4.0 is released. In matter of fact all the Living Campaigns will be wrapped up and replaced with Living Forgotten Realms. I think its a bold move. Alienate your most loyal customers. I don't know what to say. I hope there are enough Realms fans to replace the LG players that will go underground.

Designer's dsigning for the sake of it is a bad thing. That is why there are product managers and marketing managers. They take what the market is looking for and translate it into requirements. i.e. the product and marketing managers recognize a problem or need in the market and build the concept of the product ofr designers. The designers are brought in to make the product real. They work out what it takes to build a product that meets the business requirements.

My first post details how Wotc translated the information they have into business requirements. I think that either their information is inaccurate or they are ignoring the market and trying to be something else. Companies that do that often fail to create a product their target market is looking for. They create something that neither meets thier clients needs and send a confusing message to the market they are attempting to enter.

The new D&D 4.0 is neither the tabletop game we play now and is not WOW. What is it them? It is an overengineered monster. A pig painted blue is not a smurf - its a pig. Plain and simple. It is a paper/online hybrid.

Here are some overengineered products that users were slow to adopt, are yet to be adopted, or have never been adopted:

Micorsoft Vista
Apple Macintosh
Hybrid Cars

Why do these products fall into this category? Because none of them address the primary business problem in the market. Microsoft Vista is unecessary because XP works just fine for the majority of users. The MAC will never replace PC's because it does too much for too much. Business applications that run on PC's are memory and performance lite and the cost of a MAC simply can't be justified. Hybrid cars don't promise enough efficiency to justify the cost so they haven't sold nearly as many as they thought they could.

D&D 4.0 is similar to the above products. Users are not looking for a new version. They are not too excited about its efficiency or delivery. Lastly, the market isn't too thrilled about spending more money for something that will deliver the same satisfaction.

Before everyone goes nuts please keep this in mind. I know that MAC's aren't meant for the business market and that hybrid's aren't intended to be for everyone at this point, but in both these cases the producers of these products found a stable market and continue to nurture that market. They did however miss the mark and never met the expectations they set for these products. I believe that WOTC will have the same experience with 4.0. They could create a niche of new wave gamers, nurture them, and fall short of the mark. They might return to their core customers in a more traditional offering. Then again they could sell the line entirely. I haven't decided what Vista is all about.

Again just my two cents.

I apologize for the bad grammar and spelling. Believe it or not I was trying to get all my ideas down quick before my wife found something for me to do for her (she's pregnant). I also shouldn't have made the assumption that eveyone felt the same way me and my friends did about the conversion from 2.0 to 3.0. I don't recall so much concern over the 2.0/3.0 switch compared to the 3.0/4.0 switch.

What the last post just demonstrated is that there are 2.0 players, there are 3.0/3.5 players, and soon there will be 4.0 players. Sounds like a fractured market if you ask me. I see alot of lost opportunity there.

Sebastion, I'm a little confused about your perception of the introduction of 3.0. I don't remember a wave of people having concerns about the gaming content moving to an online format. I also don't remember them shelling out a ton of money for the last version only 4 years before the new release was announced?

Maybe I'm confused. I remember alot of excitement about 3.0, especially because 2.0 was so bad. What cave were you hiding in?

I think the 2.0 to 3.0 was handled much better because it was a purely print product in which print was the medium of product delivery as well as communication. The present design team has wandered into unchartered waters. Traditionally they were publishers, not software designers. It seems to me that the publishers that wanted to publish quality material are now with Paizo, while the designers who want to design and tinker with rules and the online portal are still with Wotc. The publishers are still publishing and the designers are tinkering. The publishers will produce more content and stick with stories and products that are popular and pass on pushing the less successful lines. The designers will design and design and design regardless of what the market says. It's like beating a dead horse. 4.0 will come out. Then you'll get an update for 4.1 online in six installments over 12 months. You will get cryptic emails about how they are working hard and you'll love whats coming down the pike.

User behavior for these two mediums is never the same. The design team is attempting a balancing act by creating a hybrid product where the print is designed to mesh with the software. A user is expected to read the books and look for further instruction, enhancements, guidance, and tools from the software. Hybrid products like this never work well. Print and online publishing is an all or nothing proposal. They will either move their consumers to the online product and be successful or fail and go back to print. If their vision is a DM sitting at the table with a laptop while the players use their character sheets created using their online tool they have missed the mark. If they think that all the users will be logged in to their portal to play, then they are no longer a publisher, but an online gaming site. If they think that people will sit at the table and play with pen and paper, but get the rules they need to play off their site then they have an even bigger problem as the PC will need to be cosulted regularly to look up rules unless the group has an industrial printer and quality paper.

Like you said Sebastion - we'll see what happens. I'm sure we'll all laugh about this in the future. I could be totally wrong and Wotc could offer an amazing product. The problem is that I am not looking for a new product and am not too excited about a new one. Like I said it just doesn't feel the same as the 3.0 release.

Only time will tell.

Ahh Seabastian. Always so quick to point out the obvious. I just threw my two sense out there. I'm sorry I'm late to the game, but please don't hold it against me. I'm giving my opinion based on my experience. I took proven product managment philosophy and indusrty experience into account. I have been a product manager for over 10 years and built software and print products from nothing into generating millions of dollars in revenue.

I'd also like to add one more thing. What was the deal with the "European" guy stating at the end of the teaser "The game has stayed the same, The game has stayed the same." I'm sorry, but if the game was the same then there would be no need for a 3.5.

I predicted this would happen as soon as the news about the cancelation of Dungeon and Dragon magazines was announced. It was only logical that WTOC made this move to create a situation where only they could benefit from this move. Alot of this has to do with what 4.0 presents. 4.0 is an effort to move gamers to a accept a new product with a new pricing model. I think they will fail in a number of ways and will tackle each separately.

Before Dungeon and Dragon magazines where canceled there was a split at WOTC. Some designers moved on to Paizo and frankly produced superior and more creative products. I will refer to them as the old guard going forward. The new guard consist of many of the authors and writers who shall we say are more likely to conform to what the business asks given the opportunity to build a new game system. Take a look at the work that has been done by the new creaotrs. None can compare with the inginuity of Monte Cook or the dedication of Eric Mona. These people were given the unenviable task of creating a new version of a popular game that didn't need to be reinvented. The business requirements for this new game include:

A subscription based business model.
Less print more online support.
An overall reengineering of the rules so that one will have adopt the new system to participate.
Remove Living Greyhawk from the scene and replace it with new living campaigns that will either rely on online gameplay or some elemental on online record keeping and benefits i.e. you need to subscribe or playing the game will be uncomfortable.
Preserve some of the aspects of the original game to lure the older dedicated gamer crowd with something that looks like the old game, but really isn't.

In most companies these tasks are set by product managers after analyzing the market and performing client interviews. From message boards, fellow gamers, and a bit of market analysis I gathering the following:

Older gamers are the cash cow. Put out good print products and for the most part most will buy them at a reasonable price. Treat them with respect and they will stay with you forever. For the most part they are trying to introduce the game to their kids, nieces, nephews, and sometimes students.

Gaming stores rely on books sales to stay in existance. These dens of gaming are the gathering places for gamers to play and socialize. Without print products they cannot exist.

Some Dungeons and Dragons players have moved on to WOW, many play both D&D and WOW, but very few WOW players play D&D.

Living Greyhawk is a decent way to introduce non gamers to D&D. It is structured so that sessions can be played quick and the players can be rewarded for playing. One normally sees the same faces at conventions. Recently I have seen more kids playing the game. I believe most of them have moved on to play D&D after becoming regular miniatures players.

What does this tell me? (BTW I am a career product manager for a company that delivers content in both print and online formats that require interactive rules and follow ever changing state and federal regulations) A conservative apporach would be to continue to create high quality print and miniature products. Maintain the "Living" campaigns and support them with as much material as possible. Slowly introduce tools to support these prodcts. Character creators would be a good start. Then introduce more robust character maintenance tools for Living players. Lastly, create tools for those who want to be Dungeon Masters. Once these tools have been built move the Dragon and Dungeon content to the online format complete with conversion of old material (from Dungeon and Dragon Magazines, as well as the books and modules for a subscription fee. Use 3.5 for the rules base or even better consolidate the best of the 3.5 rules into a 4.0 that is simlar to 3.5.

Why wasn't this approach taken? I believe the simple answer to this is time and money. I believe the 4.0 rules are simplified because it will take less developement and overhead to maintain the game online. I also believe that the Temple of Elemental Evil game was a test run for what they had in mind. Atari failed miserably because the product was riddled with bugs due to the complicity of the rules. Take this from someone who has managed and designed complicated rules based software - the less rules the easier it is to design and develope. It is also way cheaper to design.

I feel that the brand manager for Dungeons and Dragons has also hit the panic button. They want to have their cake and eat it to. The success of WOW and other online gaming protals has opened minds to the opportunities that this type of business presents. Herein lies the problem. WOW and D&D are two different kinds of games. WOW is an online community that is mechanical in and impersonal in nature. Your interface is a machine. You play the game with other but they are somwhere you are not. Your connection to them is electronic. Your interaction with them is through a computere generated you, but not you that you control within limits. You can choose to ignore the slights and actions of other players because you don't always have to play with that group. Another one is right around the corner. Dungeons and Dragons players are a community as well. Where they differ is in their interaction. They play together, but they also eat together, share stories together, and talk about their likes and dislikes. They often share details of their personal lives. There is alot of remember when moments, and did you ever play this or that from 1st edition. You may also talk about movies and books that you have read that are related to science fiction, fantasy, or adventure. At the end of a game everyone drives home instead of getting up from their PC. The story is the fuel that keeps the game going.

The marketing manager (that is the title at WOTC which is basically the same as a product manager in other industries) for Dungeons and Dragons must beleive that Dungeons and Dragons is the same as or similar enough to WOW to attempt to move the D&D players from an interactive face to face community game to an online portal where all ideas, interaction, and products are delivered. I don't believe that is the case and I believe that this individual has made a gross error in judgment.

Where have they gone wrong:

I remember when 3.0 was announced. I have to say I was excited. I had returned to D&D version 2 after a long absence. 3.0 had the advantage of being designed by a D&D household name in Monte Cook and a system that was the same yet different. The model that was adopted was that 2.o was limited in what you could do with it. Monsters couldn't advance to fit the needs of the DM and most classes were too rigid. For the most part the game was a hit. It was easily adopted and fun to play. People looked to both Dungeon and Dragon magazines for information and material. An announcement was made at GenCon to applause. Living Greyhawk began and thousands of gamers signed up and discovered that there was a viable gaming community that had been dormant for a long time. THe palyers quickly discovered that the 3.0 rules were somewhat unbalanced and shared this information with each other. A 3.5 version was soon released and even though it menat spending a pretty penny to replace the 3.0 materials, it was worth it as the game was improved and the designers reassured us that this was the last change for a long time.

Let's fast forward to today. Both Dungeon and Dragon magazine were canceled signalling the end of a what had been believed to be a beautiful friendship. A good deal of the original pariticpants that brilliantly created, delivered, and maintained quality product that had been refined to resemble a fine wine or a well brewed beer had moved on to other companies or projects bringing quality content to the masses under new banners. The primary source of information for the old guard was removed from circulation. Speculation was rife. WOTC (Wizards of the Clueless) responded with cryptic messages of what was to come. Something called Gleemax appeared to be the replacement and then a countdown appeared on the Dungeons and Dragons section of the WOTC site. Then messages from GenCon leaked to the internet through posts, emails or what have you. 4.0 is coming. But something was different this time. There wasn't applause or optimism. Like thieves in the night Wotc had removed the old game we loved and replaced it with something new. Of course they weren't really telling us what was new, but we have some clues. We saw a brief through the years video of the evolution of D&D from gamers with erasers for minis and confusion over what was what on the board to the apparent struggle of the seasoned group to discern the mechanics of a grapple, to a new mystery game in which the Dungeon Master (if that is what he is still called) is in front of a laptop. Strangley enough there was not interaction shown between the players and the DM. Then we were shown a demo of tools by two new individuals at WOTC. I was familiar with these people. I often called them the B team because their names were attached to the worst run that dragon and dungeon magazine had seen (pre Eric Mona and Paizo) and had written or produced many of the quickly released complete books. They were nervous about what they were about to present. It was almost as if they though the villagers were going to begin throwing rotten fruit at them. They showed us some what they called cool tools to design characters and manage them online. They showed us some DM tools as well. There were many things missing. What were the new rules? Why were new rules necessary? What was staying? What was going? All I saw was something that looked like you could create a character and move it around aboard. You had some limited tools to design your characters look, but that was about it. And, oh yeah, the DM can control the pieces light source. I haven't figured out why that was such an impressive feature to demonstrate.

What's the deal?
Wotc has cut off all communication for 4.0. You need to go to their website for all your information. It is a single point of entry for what you need to play 4.0 period. No magazines, no stores, nothing. You will go to them for all your gaming needs and information. Hmmm. As a pencil and paper guy this is not what I was looking for. D&D for me is about personal interaction. I like to see the looks on people's faces when they make a critical hit or their despair when they are the victim of a trap. I like to talk about the time so and so rolled 3 twenties in a row or barely escaper death because of all the buffs to party put of him. Its fun that way. The tools look cool, but even if I could create the dungeon layout online and manage everything there how are my players going to see it unless they are linked in with their own laptops. And what is so bad about the 3.5 rules? They are complicated, but so is the game. If you are a D&D player you should take pride in the fact that you can navigate these rules and others can't. Gamers are intelligent people. They take what is not material and give it form and rules of interaction. They don't dummy down the rules so a 4 year old can play it. If we did that then we wouldn't play the game into our later years. How many of you are going to tic tac toe conventions? I don't the game of chess getting dummied down so that people who aren't very good at it can start winning tournaments. Thats for Texas Hold Em. We are gamers. We are people who like to interact with other people in person. We maintain relationships with these people and talk about the past and revel in the present. Why are we being forced to accept something that feel unnatural. One simple reason - money.

Why 4.0 will fail.
Never underestimate the power of a brick and mortar shop. This was the lesson learned during the dotcom boom and its devestating bust. While thousands of companies that delivered service via the internet made and lost fortunes, Walmart became the largest company in the world. Kmart, Sears, and Macy's emerged from the ashes and continued to sell goods as they did for 50 or more years. Car dealerships still sell cars and kids still flock to the mall to buy things. More importantly, books may be sold over the internet, but they still represent a physical object that people own. They are transportable. They are what you read in a car, plane, or bus. They work when the power is out or the internet is down. The same can be said for miniatures. They are physical objects that can be bought, played with, traded, or sold. They are physical. People who for years have used books and miniatures to play a game are not going to move well to an online portal. Especially when they are insulted. It can sometimes take years for them to move. I know of companies that still use paper forms even though they can deliver them via email cheaper and faster. Why do they do this. Because they are comfortable with the stable system they have created to manage them. Much in the same way we have everything we need for 3.5 in print. We can always find these books no matter where we keep them. We can find old copies on the internet or buy them from a friend. They show that the game was played, that it exists. You have a reference for what was then and what is now. The online version of D&D is an attempt to remove this. To force players to relinquish the one thing we have which is our dollars with which we vote. We buy the products that are good and leave the and leave the bad ones on the shelves. 4.0 forces to pay just to play the game. First we will get the core books, then each month we will get a littlew more from the website. A new class here, a new monster there. The tools will be updated and pain will be felt when the software poorly converts your character sheet or dungeon files. We will have learnign curves and need to get used to gaming with people that you don't know and can't see. Your eyes will strain and your back will hurt from spending too much time in front of your PC. You will eat your meal alone, probably holding up the game to pay for the food that was just delivered, and so on. There will be no more voting with your dollars, just the thought of giving up the game altogether but unsubscribing, but wait you paid for a year and still have six months left, maybe things will get better. By the way if you unsbscribe all your information will be lost and you will have to start all over when you come back. I know these tricks - in the business world we build them into our products. They are called switching costs. They keep users subscribed to your product even when service is poor, the technology is outdated, new versions cause issues (learning curves and errors), and competitors are on your heals. The biggest problem with the WOTC startegy is simply this. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Most gamers will find that 4.0 promises alot, but delivers little. You'll hear things like remember when my fighter could grapple a troll? Remember when tieflings were rare because they were from other planes of existance. Remember when fighters were proficient with all martial weapons. I don't think we need another version. I know most gamers out there feel the same way. We will find ways to overcome this setback and play the game we know because we have invested time and money in it and we are not ready to surrender. We are not WOW players. We will interact with each other. We will find other things to spend our money on. We will invest more in the game as it is today. I know of groups of people that are already planning home games and going back to play the 3.5 materials they have accumulated over the years. For the most part I think that will have a grand time and not miss what Wotc has planned simply because they were not part of the plan to begin with.

4.0 probably won't attract many WOW players as it is slow and a far cry from the action one experiences with WOW. It will alienate the core gaming market and lost their support and revenue. It will attract some of the miniatures crowd who will probably be lost when parents realize the reason they bought their kids all the minis in the first place was so that they could play with their friends not strangers, particularly adults online. Teens and college kids will catch on and soon they will find themselves driven furhter underground than their predecessors who at least played in person. The players of Living Greyhawk will more then likely stay away from the new living game which will move them toward home games where they can finish out their characters progession. After a year WOTC will review how much revenue they gained with their new model. At that point they will probably look back and wonder what happened. The new look Dungeons and Dragons brand is neither a gaming software company or a game publisher anymore. Its something else. Hasbro will at its core competencies and probably sell it to someone who has more enthusiasm and experience with the game then its present stuards.

Personnally I'm going to stick to 3.5. I'll play out the Living Greyhawk campaing to its conclusion and then huddle with my friends to start a home campaign. I'm sure we'll enjoy the game just as much if not more then we do now. There will be plenty of games to play and stories to tell.

I'd like to know what everyone else out there thinks.

BTW - has anyone seen Binky?

Has anyone seen Randy Buehler's interview regarding Gleemax? It turns out that these guys have the rights to what was the Dragon and Dungeon magazines. Looks like their going to try and leverage that material into some kind of online gaming service.

Randy seems to have rocks in his head (mut be all the magic card playing he's done) if he thinks D&D gamers are going to shift to whatever they have in mind. So far he's been very vague about Wizards intentions for what was formerly Dungeon and Dragon and the game in general, but it seems to me that this is it for our good old game.

Randy seems to have the background to manage the Magic side of theings, but I am weary of his forray into tackling the future of how D&D material is produced and delivered. He seems to be another ill qualified Wizards hack biting off more then he can chew (see Liz Schuh).

Bye bye D&D. It's going to be a painful road to 4.0.