Again, I thought your post was great. It's too bad you've taken so much flak for it.Just to clarify, the first post is not what I have a problem with.
It's the only one that really mattered to me. ;) Everything else has seemed like tangents the OP got himself tangled in (with a little help).
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You stick in your position? OK, but remember (you work for Hasbro) that people like Real Brain and me have been giving our money to pay your salary and at least we deserve to be treated as customer not as enemies.
Yeah, Sebastian, don't you have more important things to do as CEO of Hasbro than posting on these boards?
Oh man, that's funny.
Maybe it's because I don't read these forums much except for when something big peaks my interest but how is it that Sebastian is the bad guy when [as far as I can see] the OP basically decided to intentionally post what he had to know would be a flame thread?
Also, isn't making an analogy to NAMBLA kind of like using "Hitler" or "Nazis" in a post? O_o
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Also, isn't making an analogy to NAMBLA kind of like using "Hitler" or "Nazis" in a post? O_o
Okay, this starting to scare me. Is NAMBLA an actual organization?! I heard it referred to on an episode of South Park once, but I figured the joke originated there. Is this thing seriously for real or is South Park far more influential and widespread than I previously thought possible???
Not that people can't post false information to Wikipedia but here's what they have to say about it:
Maybe it's because I don't read these forums much except for when something big peaks my interest but how is it that Sebastian is the bad guy when [as far as I can see] the OP basically decided to intentionally post what he had to know would be a flame thread?
Also, isn't making an analogy to NAMBLA kind of like using "Hitler" or "Nazis" in a post? O_o
Tim got tired of that when he compared people defending Liz Schuh to those that supported the Nazi regime. Ah, it seems like a lifetime ago now.
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I am not here to entertain you.
But I am entertained regardless.
Please tell everyone the insiders you know that are showing you that 4.0 will be a hit. Show this community how WOTC is right. How their strategy will actually increase their revenue over the next ten years. How the customers they have alienated will come back and buy their products.
I don't know anything about this. I have NEVER said that I know anything about this. I have said, "Let's check it out and see what they come up with." I don't need to quote any sources or references for it.
As far as strategies and stocks and what have you...
It is interesting to me that on one hand you tell us that WotC is stable or going down. The further implied message is that if they continue down this path, WotC will most likely go away. Then on the other hand you say that it will go down due to making a change.
Kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Actually I don't know what you are talking about any more. Your superior intellect is simply no match for me. Continue to blast away. I am sure that WotC will see the error of their ways. I'm done with this one as well.
I dislike seeing this sort of infighting in the gaming community. Last night (my time) I realized that my attacks were becoming personal towards whom I consider to be reactionary or conservative gamers. I will be giving 4.0 a chance simply because every game deserves one. The future of D&D deserves that I give it a chance.
A lot of people I think are peeved off about the way WotC has handled this more so than the actual advent of 4.0. That an the new digital initiative seem to be the factors that are driving many peoples responses. Coupled with the way that gamers feel about the game (like an old familiar comfortable armchair they don't want to give up or throw away) I can finally understand certain peoples reactions.
I'm a bit of a pragmatist as far as gaming is concerned. Evolution is inevitable, and as an aspiring game designer and writer I (like James Jacobs or Eric Mona or others) must move ahead with the times (unless you have the vintage of Gary Gygax or Monte Cook who just do their own stuff). The game must also evolve to resist being overwhelmed and destroyed as old gamers die out or move along. I have personally seen over a dozen people quit gaming (many during 3.0) because of the tyranny of distance or because they thought the rules were clunky. Others never moved on from 1st Ed. or 2nd Ed. because of that old armchair scenario I wrote about above.
I am willing to forgive WotC for ending the mags (I'm picking up issue 150 today) and for the secrecy and white lies if they produce a product that will make me say wow again to gaming. I love 3.5 (it's a great system) but at the same time it's feeling a little old and stale. That's my opinion and not everyone else shares it, but everyone on these boards should respect everyone else's opinion on the matter and just move on. Paizo doesn't need these boards filled with the same diatribe over and over again.
Finally, I'm not advocating that we don't continue to talk about 4e. All I'm saying is that we should be more concerned with conjecture about what the game can bring to the table rather than what it will stuff up. All those who hate it are staying with 3.5 (or earlier editions) so they should just vacate these boards and let them become focused on the new rules and developments that are exciting and reinvigorating the gamers making the switch to 4e.
Players fall into a number of categories:
can't wait to have 4.0, nothing else matters
have 3.5, won't buy 4.0
have 3.5. skeptical of 4.0, waiting to see
4.0 tools look cool so I'm for 4.0
Forgotten Realms is the main focus of 4.0, so I want 4.0
Forgotten Realms, eh? Do you know how many books from that setting were released under the AD&D banner?, enough to keep you busy for the next ten years, again we see the principle of recycling. Forgotten Realms is the setting I use for my campaign I have been playing with 3.5 rules and have never touched the 3rd edition book of the FR setting. All I need is in the huge pile of books from the 2.0 edition.
How many more editions WOTC will wring FR out? Why don't they start to expand the campaign filling the holes from the AD&D books instead recycling the same information again and again. If they want start something new at least be more creative and start a new campaign.
Players fall into a number of categories:
can't wait to have 4.0, nothing else matters
have 3.5, won't buy 4.0
have 3.5. skeptical of 4.0, waiting to see
4.0 tools look cool so I'm for 4.0
Forgotten Realms is the main focus of 4.0, so I want 4.0
Forgotten Realms, eh? Do you know how many books from that setting were released under the AD&D banner?, enough to keep you busy for the next ten years, again we see the principle of recycling. Forgotten Realms is the setting I use for my campaign I have been playing with 3.5 rules and have never touched the 3rd edition book of the FR setting. All I need is in the huge pile of books from the 2.0 edition.
How many more editions WOTC will wring FR out? Why don't they start to expand the campaign filling the holes from the AD&D books instead recycling the same information again and again. If they want start something new at least be more creative and start a new campaign.
I thought recycling was good for the environment ;-)
Now Patricio... what did I say in my previous post? Let's just all play nice and agree to disagree.
I have been playing with 3.5 rules and have never touched the 3rd edition book of the FR setting.
Man... have you been missing out. Those books are some of the best in terms of both art direction and content.
I dare say, the rad presentation of the Realms in 3rd Edition is one of the things that made the transition easy for me from AD&D 2nd Ed.
I have been playing with 3.5 rules and have never touched the 3rd edition book of the FR setting.Man... have you been missing out. Those books are some of the best in terms of both art direction and content.
I dare say, the rad presentation of the Realms in 3rd Edition is one of the things that made the transition easy for me from AD&D 2nd Ed.
I don't say it could not be a good product. The point is that I never felt need to have it in order to play the campaign.
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I have been playing with 3.5 rules and have never touched the 3rd edition book of the FR setting.Man... have you been missing out. Those books are some of the best in terms of both art direction and content.
I dare say, the rad presentation of the Realms in 3rd Edition is one of the things that made the transition easy for me from AD&D 2nd Ed.
Recycling is GREAT! when you actually recycle the exterior, not the interior, A New edition is like taking the soda out of the can, and putting it in a new can!!! Not really recycling...just repackaging the original product.
I do however agree, that the 3rd edition realms had a very cool package! The regional starting areas were excellent.
Do you think 4E will even be close?
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...just repackaging the original product.
But it's much more than just repackaging. There's a lot of information out there you won't necessarily find in a 2E book and "Silver Marches" and "Serpent Kingdoms" may well be two of the best books ever created for the Realms (yeah I know, IMHO)
Do you think 4E will even be close?
Why not? I do not know exactly which designers will be involved in the creation of FR 4E, but given that the designers of FR 3E are still around, i do not fear. I'm actually much more concerned about Eberron being the official 3.5 setting and being heavily woven into the rules. It is there that much will change with 4E and it can only hope that this change is not to the worse.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Recycling is GREAT! when you actually recycle the exterior, not the interior, A New edition is like taking the soda out of the can, and putting it in a new can!!! Not really recycling...just repackaging the original product.
I do however agree, that the 3rd edition realms had a very cool package! The regional starting areas were excellent.
Do you think 4E will even be close?
An update is more like putting old soda in a new can. Moderate, some cosmetic changes, or removing the Coccaine and sugar cane from Coke and putting in Corn Syrup.
2e -> 3.x or 3.x -> 4,x looks to be more like rolling out a new product under a similar name.
It remains to be seen if 4.x is New Coke or Mt Dew LiveWire
The other difference in the soda analogy is stuff can be stolen. I know there are CBT players who play in Clickytech scale because the clickytech minis are cheep on the secondary market.
I own over 20 D&D books, some of which I bought in the last year like the Fiendish Codex I & II. Books that I bought while they were busy working on 4.0 which I find rather annoying
I have ALL wotc 3.0/3.5 books - and I'm quite pissed off, thinking about buying all the books like The Complete "add another description but mean warrior/Mage/Priest/Monster/Spell/MagicItem" for 4.0 AGAIN. What sucks here is not the money I already spent and have to spend again if I wanted to stay in tune - I just don't want to buy the same content twice/thrice. And I don't mind at all, if it is a bit better or slower or faster or leaner or whatsoever - they produced meters of books with a system they now describe as "not so good". It worked fine until now - and never touch a running system.
So - I guess I just freed 100 Euros a month for another hobby and wotc lost a customer cause of 4.0 :)
And, Pagan, your thought is something, that also came to my mind ... a thought that doesn't feel good while reading one of the newer books.
Sebastian's a lawyer.
Anyone INWO here?
"The first thing we do ..."
Always loved that card.
I own over 20 D&D books, some of which I bought in the last year like the Fiendish Codex I & II. Books that I bought while they were busy working on 4.0 which I find rather annoying
I have ALL wotc 3.0/3.5 books - and I'm quite pissed off, thinking about buying all the books like The Complete "add another description but mean warrior/Mage/Priest/Monster/Spell/MagicItem" for 4.0 AGAIN. What sucks here is not the money I already spent and have to spend again if I wanted to stay in tune - I just don't want to buy the same content twice/thrice. And I don't mind at all, if it is a bit better or slower or faster or leaner or whatsoever - they produced meters of books with a system they now describe as "not so good". It worked fine until now - and never touch a running system.
So - I guess I just freed 100 Euros a month for another hobby and wotc lost a customer cause of 4.0 :)
And, Pagan, your thought is something, that also came to my mind ... a thought that doesn't feel good while reading one of the newer books.
I agree with you, and maybe WOTC could say: "It is just one customer we lost" but if you add one to one to one to one and so on they will have a considerable quantity of people that will not buy, try or at least see the 4.0 edition. WOTC have two options: finish d20 license and say "game over" to 3.5 players and keep upright their 4.0 (tabletop game aberration) edition OR give 4.0 to those who want 4.0 and keep their 3.5 products to those who prefer so.
If they decide first option, say bye bye to this customer. Maybe WOTC understimate the strenght of a united comunity of 3.5 supporters.
I own over 20 D&D books, some of which I bought in the last year like the Fiendish Codex I & II. Books that I bought while they were busy working on 4.0 which I find rather annoying
I have ALL wotc 3.0/3.5 books - and I'm quite pissed off, thinking about buying all the books like The Complete "add another description but mean warrior/Mage/Priest/Monster/Spell/MagicItem" for 4.0 AGAIN. What sucks here is not the money I already spent and have to spend again if I wanted to stay in tune - I just don't want to buy the same content twice/thrice. And I don't mind at all, if it is a bit better or slower or faster or leaner or whatsoever - they produced meters of books with a system they now describe as "not so good". It worked fine until now - and never touch a running system.
So - I guess I just freed 100 Euros a month for another hobby and wotc lost a customer cause of 4.0 :)
And, Pagan, your thought is something, that also came to my mind ... a thought that doesn't feel good while reading one of the newer books.
I agree with you, and maybe WOTC could say: "It is just one customer we lost" but if you add one to one to one to one and so on they will have a considerable quantity of people that will not buy, try or at least see the 4.0 edition. WOTC have two options: finish d20 license and say "game over" to 3.5 players and keep upright their 4.0 (tabletop game aberration) edition OR give 4.0 to those who want 4.0 and keep their 3.5 products to those who prefer so.
If they decide first option, say bye bye to this customer. Maybe WOTC understimate the strenght of a united comunity of 3.5 supporters.
Should they be making 1st Edition and 2nd Edition too? I wasn't around during any of the other conversions, but I have heard that people complained about them just as much. Some eventually converted. However there are a few are still saying that 3rd Edition is inferior to 2nd, that real D&D is 2nd Edition, and then mock others who play newer editions (That is not to say that if you prefer 2nd edition you do all these things).
I personally would rather stop playing D&D than become that person.
Should they be making 1st Edition and 2nd Edition too?
I'm waiting for the reprint of the "gold box" Immortals. It was the pinnacle of D&D. I cannot believe you guys are playing anything else.
Should they be making 1st Edition and 2nd Edition too? I wasn't around during any of the other conversions, but I have heard that people complained about them just as much. Some eventually converted. However there are a few are still saying that 3rd Edition is inferior to 2nd, that real D&D is 2nd...
I own over 20 D&D books, some of which I bought in the last year like the Fiendish Codex I & II. Books that I bought while they were busy working on 4.0 which I find rather annoying
I have ALL wotc 3.0/3.5 books - and I'm quite pissed off, thinking about buying all the books like The Complete "add another description but mean warrior/Mage/Priest/Monster/Spell/MagicItem" for 4.0 AGAIN. What sucks here is not the money I already spent and have to spend again if I wanted to stay in tune - I just don't want to buy the same content twice/thrice. And I don't mind at all, if it is a bit better or slower or faster or leaner or whatsoever - they produced meters of books with a system they now describe as "not so good". It worked fine until now - and never touch a running system.
So - I guess I just freed 100 Euros a month for another hobby and wotc lost a customer cause of 4.0 :)
And, Pagan, your thought is something, that also came to my mind ... a thought that doesn't feel good while reading one of the newer books.
I agree with you, and maybe WOTC could say: "It is just one customer we lost" but if you add one to one to one to one and so on they will have a considerable quantity of people that will not buy, try or at least see the 4.0 edition. WOTC have two options: finish d20 license and say "game over" to 3.5 players and keep upright their 4.0 (tabletop game aberration) edition OR give 4.0 to those who want 4.0 and keep their 3.5 products to those who prefer so.
If they decide first option, say bye bye to this customer. Maybe WOTC understimate the strenght of a united comunity of 3.5 supporters.
That is a different matter. I also played AD&D personally compared with 3.5 I prefer 3.5. However remember that the first owner of D&D was TSR and I really believe that they would have kept AD&D support until today even if they have brought another edition. If not beleive look at vintage Dungeon Magazines they always supported first edition at least for the months after the transition. I am nor prophet neither son of a prophet but who knows, if WOTC have not appeared on the scene and TSR were yet alive you and me would be still playing AD&D. However WOTC bought TSR, what could they do? the only they could do improve the game in order to save the franchise.
I own over 20 D&D books, some of which I bought in the last year like the Fiendish Codex I & II. Books that I bought while they were busy working on 4.0 which I find rather annoying
I have ALL wotc 3.0/3.5 books - and I'm quite pissed off, thinking about buying all the books like The Complete "add another description but mean warrior/Mage/Priest/Monster/Spell/MagicItem" for 4.0 AGAIN. What sucks here is not the money I already spent and have to spend again if I wanted to stay in tune - I just don't want to buy the same content twice/thrice. And I don't mind at all, if it is a bit better or slower or faster or leaner or whatsoever - they produced meters of books with a system they now describe as "not so good". It worked fine until now - and never touch a running system.
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I have ALL wotc 3.0/3.5 books - and I'm quite pissed off, thinking about buying all the books like The Complete "add another description but mean warrior/Mage/Priest/Monster/Spell/MagicItem" for 4.0 AGAIN.
Were you really thinking that WotC would never release another edition of the rules? I mean, if you're buying every single book, and you're going to regret that when those books no longer match the current edition, then you were bound to be disappointed at some time, no matter when the change came or why.
...they produced meters of books with a system they now describe as "not so good". It worked fine until now - and never touch a running system.
What an excellent point.
Parody and sarcasm: look for this silly dialogue:
WOTC: We are here to succeed where TSR failed.
Gamers:What do you have?
WOTC: Look at this, this is the new and improved 3.5 D&D.
Gamers: Ooooohhhhh!
WOTC: This is the best you have ever seen. It works very well,this is the best on the market, we are going to give the d20 license to save the industry, d20 is the best, d20 gives cancer, we saved the industry, d20 is all what you need.
Gamers: Wow!
Hasbro Phone Call: Hey guys, you the Wizards of the COST, sales are low we are losing money on your department.
WOTC: Ehh! Well, d20 is not so good after all, what if you look this other system, d20 could not be so perfect if you look closer. We present you 4.0 the newest (and condemned to be replaced when we are out of money) system only for you.
Gamers: &%$*#
Like an idiot, I clicked the post button before I replied...
I think the supposed stated premise for the release of 4.0 D&D, which is that of "Simplifying the game" is not very genuine. If the main purpose of 4.0 is indeed to simplify the game, then WHY, as the post above illustrates, will the game then require the VAST array of Books/Tomes/Manuals/Etc. that you know will be following & forthcoming after the 4.0 PH/DMG/MM have been released. A "simplified 4.0" game that was necessary to "replace a supposedly complex 3.5 system that required updating" should not by default then require DOZENS of support books that will inevitably follow the 'simplified 4.0 PH/DMG/MM'. That is a paradoxical proposition.
If the reason for the release of 4.0 is Money and an attempt to market the game to even more prospective players (which we all know it IS), then why not just say so WoTC? Spare me this intellectually dishonest mumbo-jumbo about "simplifying the game" when you (WoTC) know that the first round of "Complete" books for 4.0 are probably ALREADY on the drawing board.
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I think the supposed stated premise for the release of 4.0 D&D, which is that of "Simplifying the game" is not very genuine. If the main purpose of 4.0 is indeed to simplify the game, then WHY, as the post above illustrates, will the game then require the VAST array of Books/Tomes/Manuals/Etc. that you know will be following & forthcoming after the 4.0 PH/DMG/MM have been released. A "simplified 4.0" game that was necessary to "replace a supposedly complex 3.5 system that required updating" should not by default then require DOZENS of support books that will inevitably follow the 'simplified 4.0 PH/DMG/MM'. That is a paradoxical proposition.
If the reason for the release of 4.0 is Money and an attempt to market the game to even more prospective players (which we all know it IS), then why not just say so WoTC? Spare me this intellectually dishonest mumbo-jumbo about "simplifying the game" when you (WoTC) know that the first round of "Complete" books for 4.0 are probably ALREADY on the drawing board.
Does a for-profit company really have to come out and say that it's trying to make money?
A desire to simplify the basic mechanics of the game and make them more fun is not contradictory with plans to produce support material and make money. It's quite possible to do both, at the same time.
There are no complete books planned in the future. The PHB, DMG, and MM will be released incomplete. That is to say that the PHB will be missing something we all know and love like Druids and Gnomes (well not everybody loves them) and the MM will have some things missing like fey or yetis or storm giants. A year from the initial release a PHB II and MM II will be released with the missing content. They will say "now you can have gnomes and druids yeahhhhh!" Then the DMGII will be released and have the rules for something new. Every 6 months to a year an additional book will be release so that instead of complete this and complete that you'll have PHB I, PHB II, PHB III. This way WOTC doesn't lose sales by introducing a book like Complete Village Idiot that noones wants. What they do is relase PHB II which happens to include the rules to play an idiot and a bunch of other stuff like the mechanics for "turkey baster fighter."
A pig painted blue is still a pig.
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WOTC: Look at this, this is the new and improved 3.5 D&D.
Gamers: Ooooohhhhh!
WOTC: This is the best you have ever seen. It works very well,this is the best on the market, we are going to give the d20 license to save the industry, d20 is the best, d20 gives cancer, we saved the industry, d20 is all what you need.
Gamers: Wow!
Hasbro Phone Call: Hey guys, you the Wizards of the COST, sales are low we are losing money on your department.
WOTC: Ehh! Well, d20 is not so good after all, what if you look this other system, d20 could not be so perfect if you look closer. We present you 4.0 the newest (and condemned to be replaced when we are out of money) system only for you.
Are you familiar with how commerce works? Here, try this:
Company: Look at this car/computer/RPG/salad mixer/toothbrush, it's the best we've ever made!
Consumers: Yay! I'll buy one, since I happen to need/want a new car/computer/RPG/salad mixer/toothbrush!
Company: Last year, we brought you the best car/computer/RPG/salad mixer/toothbrush we'd ever made! Now, we've made it even better!
Consumers: Yay!
Happens all the time, it's how the consumer world goes 'round. You don't have to play that game if you don't want to.
However, I forgot about WotC saying that "d20 gives cancer". Guess I'll be tossing my old books a lot sooner than I'd planned. ;-)
D&D 4.0 based on on-line game the same as MMORPGs eh?
Well 3.5 players will take their books, maps, combat mats, miniatures and dices and will play at any place of the world even on those places where there is not electricity or internet access.
I would like to see the face of a 4.0 player in a blackout, without computer and without game.
In the blackout I and my fellow players will light some candles and play a horror fantasy adventure, what an experience.
Poor guys without game in the blackout hi, hi, hi.
However, I forgot about WotC saying that "d20 gives cancer". Guess I'll be tossing my old books a lot sooner than I'd planned. ;-)
I don't remember exactly the place I read that but if you give me sometime I will get you that information. That happened when WOTC received an award (don't remember which one).
D&D 4.0 based on on-line game the same as MMORPGs eh?
Well 3.5 players will take their books, maps, combat mats, miniatures and dices and will play at any place of the world even on those places where there is not electricity or internet access.
I would like to see the face of a 4.0 player in a blackout, without computer and without game.
In the blackout I and my fellow players will light some candles and play a horror fantasy adventure, what an experience.
Poor guys without game in the blackout hi, hi, hi.
No, you're wrong, it is not a MMORPG and you are not required to be online to play 4e. Can we please stop beating this dead horse.
No, you're wrong, it is not a MMORPG and you are not required to be online to play 4e. Can we please stop beating this dead horse.
Maybe not right now, but wait a little, hi, hi, hi.
Like an idiot, I clicked the post button before I replied...
I think the supposed stated premise for the release of 4.0 D&D, which is that of "Simplifying the game" is not very genuine. If the main purpose of 4.0 is indeed to simplify the game, then WHY, as the post above illustrates, will the game then require the VAST array of Books/Tomes/Manuals/Etc. that you know will be following & forthcoming after the 4.0 PH/DMG/MM have been released. A "simplified 4.0" game that was necessary to "replace a supposedly complex 3.5 system that required updating" should not by default then require DOZENS of support books that will inevitably follow the 'simplified 4.0 PH/DMG/MM'. That is a paradoxical proposition.
If the reason for the release of 4.0 is Money and an attempt to market the game to even more prospective players (which we all know it IS), then why not just say so WoTC? Spare me this intellectually dishonest mumbo-jumbo about "simplifying the game" when you (WoTC) know that the first round of "Complete" books for 4.0 are probably ALREADY on the drawing board.
I don't think WOTC is being dishonest in this instance because there is a difference between simplifying the base rule system and simplifying the game by eliminating supplementary material (and then betray this simplification by adding optional, supplementary material). I think it is clear that WOTC is talking about the former when they talk about "simplification," "less prep time," and "easier to run." And its not like they are hiding the release of future, supplementary material, WoTC has been pretty upfront about it.
Maybe not right now, but wait a little, hi, hi, hi.
No, you're wrong, it is not a MMORPG and you are not required to be online to play 4e. Can we please stop beating this dead horse.
Oh, puh-leaze...
I am nor prophet neither son of a prophet but who knows, if WOTC have not appeared on the scene and TSR were yet alive you and me would be still playing AD&D. However WOTC bought TSR, what could they do? the only they could do improve the game in order to save the franchise.
If WOTC hadn't come around, then nobody would be playing D&D. TSR would have continued its march to oblivion, and maybe whoever ended up with the rights to the name would have sold D&D for a quick buck to make some horrid video game or what not, but its not likely anyone at the time would have gone out on a limb and actually made a new RPG. WOTC had the ability to not worry too much about profit and take a risk because of the sales of Magic the Gathering and Pokemon.
Interesting: all 3.5 material is treated in the official page of WOTC as "3.5 archive". Now 3.5 is part of WoTC's "sordid past". HA, HA, HA and HA.
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Interesting: all 3.5 material is treated in the official page of WOTC as "3.5 archive". Now 3.5 is part of WoTC's "sordid past". HA, HA, HA and HA.
First: You are aware that all 3.5 material went to the "archive" before and that the renaming to "3.5 archive" just serves to disinguish it from the new 4E material?
I would like to see the face of a 4.0 player in a blackout, without computer and without game.
Second: As far as I'm concerned you would see the same face with the same look as nowadays in a blackout, without computer and without a game. Even now with 3.5, the only possibility for me to play the game on a regular basis is to play via internet. So for me, the DI can only improve my situation (if it is well done, that is).
Apart from that would you please stop with this stupid claim that you cannot play 4E without a computer? They made it sufficiently clear that you do not need DI to play 4E. And before you call them liars, remember that they are mostly the same people wich were heavily involved in the creation of the 3E you do so support
stop with this stupid claim
Stupid? That is the way how insults start in a forum. Did you know?
I have read reviews about 4.0 and most of them claims it is heavily web-based, so what can I say we all share the same source of information, isn't it?
stop with this stupid claimStupid? That is the way how insults start in a forum. Did you know?
I have read reviews about 4.0 and most of them claims it is heavily web-based, so what can I say we all share the same source of information, isn't it?
Wow, you read reviews of a system that will not be released until May of 2008, lucky you. And here I was going off of statements from WoTC staffers categorically stating that D&D will remain a pen-and-paper game with optional on-line support. This is kind of like your claim that vintage Dungeon supported 1e and 2e material simultaneously. It did not, they ran 1e for a while and then switched exclusively to 2e (for AD&D support that is) around Issue 20.
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Stupid? That is the way how insults start in a forum. Did you know?
I'd say insults started a while ago, you've just to read through the first post in this thread to find some. And given that I'm not the first one to correct your obviously false claim i just stated my opinion when you chose to repeat it once again.
I have read reviews about 4.0 and most of them claims it is heavily web-based, so what can I say we all share the same source of information, isn't it?
Don't know anything about your sources (reviews about an edition not even published?), but just in case you didn't read it I invite you to look at what Randy Buehler had to say about the DI in his Blog at Gleemax:
I'll start with the basics: D&D Insider is a monthly subscription package that gives subscribers access to 1) online Dragon and Dungeon magazine content (three updates per week that then have the best parts collected into monthly issues), 2) a suite of digital applications that includes DM tools, a Character Generator, and the D&D Game Table. Check out this video if you haven't already as we've got parts of the application functional and I think the fly-through will go a long way toward explaining what we're up to. Note that the game table does not enforce any game rules. Instead, it connects players via voice chat and lets the DM run things just like you were all gathered around the kitchen table. The idea is to use the computer to take away a lot of the busywork and also to connect folks who can't physically get into the same room.
D&D Insider will be in free preview mode from now until the release of 4th Edition in the first half of next year. Once we start charging for it, it will cost "more than a magazine but less than an MMO" (which I did hear officially translated at least once as $8 - $12 / month). You certainly don't need an Insider subscription to play D&D - technically, you don't even need to upgrade to 4th Edition to play D&D - but in both cases we think we're giving you enough value for your dollar that you'll want to. In addition, even if you aren't a subscriber you can still access the digital tools in a "pay as you go" mode which we'll have more details on later. The idea is to allow folks to pay a smaller price for, say, one session at the Game Table or some such.
Another digital offering that we're making in conjunction with 4th Edition is that we're putting codes into all of our books. If you come to the website and put in the code you get two things: 1) You get an e-version of the book that can be read and searched on your computer. This will cost a nominal fee (probably a dollar) and will not require an Insider subscription. 2) If you are a subscriber, then putting in the code will unlock all of the content from that book in all of the databases that are available through Insider. For example, without the code for the relevant book you would see only a one-line description of a feat during character creation. With the code you see the full rules. Similarly, without the code you would see only a one-line description of a monster on the game table but with the code you can see the full stat block, etc.
Quoted from WormyQ :
Another digital offering that we're making in conjunction with 4th Edition is that we're putting codes into all of our books. If you come to the website and put in the code you get two things: 1) You get an e-version of the book that can be read and searched on your computer. This will cost a nominal fee (probably a dollar) and will not require an Insider subscription. 2) If you are a subscriber, then putting in the code will unlock all of the content from that book in all of the databases that are available through Insider.
****For example, without the code for the relevant book you would see only a one-line description of a feat during character creation. With the code you see the full rules. Similarly, without the code you would see only a one-line description of a monster on the game table but with the code you can see the full stat block, etc.****
This last part (in between the stars) is something I think will be the lynchpin of what makes the new rules set sink or swim. If they elect to go this route, this is what will royally hack people off. In effect, this new paradigm, if implemented as mentioned above, requires one person per group, or every one that plays on an isolated/PbP/PbEM/etc basis, to pony up about $120 a year in order to get all the basic information that is required to play the game, on top of about $120 or so just to get the core books with the codes. So, in effect, to just get started in 4th edition, they are effectively tripling the price tag from the original intent to make the 'core game' retail at less than $100 per set of 3 books.
All this having been said, of course, presumes that the pen-n-paper game has the same code requirement that seems to be aimed at the on-line support dooflichie as quoted above.
If this is how WoTC/Hasbro elects to play things out for the hardcopy product, I rather suspect that thier custody of D&D will stand a good chance of being consigned to the ashbin of history in relatively short order. Naturally, that can always be proven wrong - the dollars spent over the first year or two of 4th edition will be what determines the viability of the new paradigm.
All this having been said, of course, presumes that the pen-n-paper game has the same code requirement that seems to be aimed at the on-line support dooflichie as quoted above.
I think the books will have the full rules. However, if you want to make your character on DI or play on DI you need to pay to get the full text of the rules in those programs. Kind of like how army builder dosen't write all the rules for everything in a 40k army but you can build a full army point wise.
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In effect, this new paradigm, if implemented as mentioned above, requires one person per group, or every one that plays on an isolated/PbP/PbEM/etc basis, to pony up about $120 a year in order to get all the basic information that is required to play the game,...
The part between the stars refers to the DI, as I understand it. So you get the full rules with the books and if you want use those rules with the DI-tools (which requires you to pay the subscription fee anyways) you can do so without additional costs.
The only additional costs I can see from the text is if want to have an e-version of your book to save it on your desktop. And one dollar per book is nothing what bothers me too much. Remember you don't even have to subscribe to DI to get this electronic copy.
In effect, this new paradigm, if implemented as mentioned above, requires one person per group, or every one that plays on an isolated/PbP/PbEM/etc basis, to pony up about $120 a year in order to get all the basic information that is required to play the game,...The part between the stars refers to the DI, as I understand it. So you get the full rules with the books and if you want use those rules with the DI-tools (which requires you to pay the subscription fee anyways) you can do so without additional costs.
The only additional costs I can see from the text is if want to have an e-version of your book to save it on your desktop. And one dollar per book is nothing what bothers me too much. Remember you don't even have to subscribe to DI to get this electronic copy.
But, according to the quoted article, you won't get anything but a one-line blurb using the DI without the subscription. Rather defeats the purpose it seems ?
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But, according to the quoted article, you won't get anything but a one-line blurb using the DI without the subscription. Rather defeats the purpose it seems ?
I think, there's a slight misunderstanding. To get full use of the DI, you'll have to subscribe (and pay around 10$ per month). I you don't, you can't use the e-tools anyway so you have no need for them to include the content of additional sourcebooks.
But as a subscriber you get this service without additional cost. Simply enter the code and take full use of what DI has to offer (whatever this will be). Even if you don't own said book, you get at least a one-line blurb of feats, skills and whatever.
And even as a non-subscriber, you can get the e-version of the books you bought by paying a nominal fee (Randy said around 1$), which isn't the baddest thing if you think about it.
That's just all too confusing. ;)
Preach on, brutha.