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As I noted, at the moment I don't know any detail more than everyone else here. So it's just the gut feeling I've got from "emphasize faster game play", the whole D&D Insider online thing, and the trend I've witnessed in the latest supplements for 3.5 edition.Fair enough. I guess here is what I'm imagining. You know how in videogames, like diablo, you've gor your paper doll for your character and inventory slots? And you can drag equipment on to the character to equip it?
Okay, now imagine you can do that on the mycharacter page and it updates your character to have the equipment. And it subtracts the gold out. And it calculates encumbrance. And AC. And speed.
Boom, a process that is tedious and not very fun with pen and paper becomes easy and clean.
Instead of item cards with your crusty hand written notes, you can build your items using some art available from wotc and send it electronically. And maybe you can still purchase new equipment cards with new art from paizo.
There are so many ways a well integrated online platform can improge the game. It could suck, it could be a piece of crap, but I'm going to bet on wotc to pull through.
That's fine. It's eye-candy gadgetry that appeals almost everyone and takes away the most tedious elements from the game (this last assumption can be debated, but this is not the right place).
Does it justifies a new edition of the rules alone? Or a simplification of the same rules, instead of adding detail and thus depth to the game (remember, the mechanical-ruling stuff is automatically calculated by this online, pay-per-use initiative)?
Or is it just the smoke screen?
As I said from the start, I'll wait and see, before judging out sentences. The OGL part is the only good piece of news I've seen so far.
...I have a question, actually. If the books are going to be released in May 2008...
...What exactly are we counting down for?
Well, Wizards have just answered my question. Refresh the page, guys!
Edit: the DnD homepage, that is.
MMMM
Not much happening there though??????
Wait, I don't post that... Oh, hey, Lori B, you stole my avatar! :)
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Just for giggles...
The press release again. This time with public relations and WotC contact info.
http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Press/?doc=20070816b
"Contact:
Toby Nelson
Hunter Public Relations
206/709.9592
206/349.9531
tnelson@hunterpr.com
Caitlin Roulston
Wizards of the Coast
425/204.8035
206/349.9300"
caitlin.roulston@wizards.com
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We're pretty much as in the dark as everyone. I have reason to believe I'll know more soon, but it's way, way, WAY to early to say what our plans are, because we haven't made them yet.
Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules are 3.5 until 4.0 comes out. After that it'll be an issue of the terms of the OGL and a variety of other factors, including what our readers tell us they want us to do.
--Erik
Sucks for Paizo though. Does this mean that Pathfinder will convert?
to convert or not to convert.
That's the question........I quess we need a little/lot more patience.
I call it a night for now.
(can't bare the wait
(it's quiet with paizonians too btw. prob. in a meeting))
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Does this mean that Pathfinder will convert?
One one hand I hope not. That of course is the hand that handles my finacials...On the other I hope so because for Paizo it is probably a better business decision to keep up with the current edition of the game.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Seb, how is the work schedule? Life returning to normal?
As evidenced by the fact that I'm posting on this thread roughly once every 10 minutes?
It's slowed down a bit, though partly I'm so excited about 4e that I'm doing more posting than I really should. Aren't your games still very full? I took a look at the RotRL thread and it looked pretty full. Do you have an open spot?
But think of this Aubrey. If this whole 4e tabletop over the internet thing works well, we can play a real game. That's what I'm most excited about. Yes, yes, I know that fantasy grounds exists, blah, blah, blah, but this is WotC with the flagship D&D product. If this can't make online tabletop work, nothing will.
Regarding the infos on D&D Insider I feel a bit angry, 'cause it seems that they'll charge a monthly fee for stuff that is (or has been)already avaiable for free on their site!
At least 75% of the features mentioned there...
Interesting.
Aubury and I were discussing a business model like this on a thread a couple of years ago. I should have applied for a patent!
I just had a nasty flashback to The Elder Scrolls. Remember Morrowind? Great detail, endless hours of gaming fun, thousand and one things to see and do. But it included a steep learning curve.Its successor, Oblivion. A nightmare if you enjoyed Morrowind, dumbed down skills, lots of weapons taken out and a main story you could finish within hours(and at level 1, mind you). It looked better but for the true fan, it just wasn't the same. I played it for hours, sure. But not after spending several days tweaking the dozens of mods I had to install to make it last and actually be enjoyable.
Getting the same kind of vibe here. Newer does not always mean better. It just means in our case, a lack of support for 3.5 material.
You could be spot on.
One thing you don't mention is how the public recieved these two titles. Now I've not really researched this but my understanding is that Morrowind was a vaguely successful RPG. They probably did not actually loose money. Oblivion was the hottest thing in CRPGs for months - it sold like gangbusters.
Yes, yes, I know that fantasy grounds exists, blah, blah, blah, but this is WotC with the flagship D&D product. If this can't make online tabletop work, nothing will.
Weird. I had no clue that Sebastian was all moon-eyed over a corporation. And here I thought he was a bastion of level-headedness. Shame on me!
I am not going to express my personal opinion about 4e or not to 4e at this time, but I find it surprising to hear about such faith in the "flagship". It seems to me that large corporate groups generally have a losing track record in comparison to small dedicated folks when it comes to creative endeavors. Paizo might be one example. OpenSource software vs. Microsoft is an excellent example. Google would be the black sheep I think.
We'll see what happens. Don't get me wrong, I'm not rooting against WoTC, I just suspect that they might be hog-tied by their size and ambitions.
Carry on with your dancing though Sebastian. It's cheering me up!
I'm into this thread late. Hop over to my D&D blog where I'm collecting all the information I can find. Notable information so far:
- Fourth edition will be announced Thursday, August 16, 2007, at 6:30pm, in the Sagamore Ballroom at the Indianapolis Convention Center.
- Wizards is announcing something called "D&D Insider", an online system which incorporates the former Dungeon and Dragon magazines as well as several software products, including something called "D&D Gametable" which lets you play online. It's not yet known if this will be a a paid subscription service, but I expect it to work similarly Valve's "Steam" platform, allowing you download DRM-protected electronic content.
- Wizards will preview the edition at D&D Experience 2008 (formerly Winter Fantasy) in February. The release date for the final game will be May 2008 for the Player's Handbook, followed by the Monster Manual in June and the Dungeon Master's Guide in July. Four other unannounced books have already been slated; my own guess is that one of these will be a Forgotten Realms hardcover.
- Forgotten Realms and Eberron will be supported, and I expect they will receive hardcover books.
- Wizards has been prepping fourth edition in earnest for at least two years, and working hard on it for at least one year. I'll be very surprised if Mike Mearls' name isn't on the books.
- Finally, and this is somewhat speculative, I suspect that 4e will be released under a modified OGL; fans will be able to put up their own material for free, while publishers will be expected to pay a license fee. This is a good thing, in my opinion. With third ed you saw a lot of low-quality material that should have been free fan works, but thanks to the PDF market it was sold alongside higher quality works. I think a licensing fee will split the current miasma of third party material into high-quality books and free fan-projects, which is good news for everyone.
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I also admitted to being a brain in a jar in another thread. I'm surprised no one ever figured out my true identity. Mha ha ha.
You're Hitler!!!
yes... true... if you know enough and are interested enough to track all those things down.. put them all together.. get all your friends setup with them properly... and coordinate it all yourself...
Realize, not all people that play DnD love to read every book front to back and lurk on gaming forums reading every posting. (I know, what's wrong with those people?)
Step back and look at this not as "something I can already do" as "consolidating digital gaming for the masses".
If you equate Wizards with Microsoft, it makes much more sense. Yes, i could find lots of "free" tools that do the same thing as Microsoft Office, but most people use Microsoft Office cause they don't have the time/interest to track down the other stuff. They just want to write a letter.
If money is an issue, I've often found that people are willing to go to great lengths to save a few bucks. Thus it's not unreasonable for most intelligent people to look for cheaper/free alternatives.
Granted, time can often be an issue too.I just wanted to point out, on a gaming forum, that all of these options are available elsewhere, cheaper. I would then suppose that I'm targeting the right group (you know, the RIGHT kind of people, those who read every book front to back and lurk on gaming forums reading every posting ;-)).
If time is of the essence and you can afford it, I'm sure it's a great option. But for those who want alternatives, luckily they are out there (and it's going to be a tough competition for Wizards to outshine all the options on every front).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Weird. I had no clue that Sebastian was all moon-eyed over a corporation. And here I thought he was a bastion of level-headedness. Shame on me!
Check my profile - I am the Man. Woot!
I am not going to express my personal opinion about 4e or not to 4e at this time, but I find it surprising to hear about such faith in the "flagship". It seems to me that large corporate groups generally have a losing track record in comparison to small dedicated folks when it comes to creative endeavors. Paizo might be one example. OpenSource software vs. Microsoft is an excellent example. Google would be the black sheep I think.
What about nintendo and the DS/Wii? Toyota?
Wizards has to do something or this hobby will go the route of war games. I'm out here on the horse, face half painted in blue, to tell you that. They are the leaders, this is our hobby. The D&D boards are dominated by us old crusty folks, kids that would've gotten into D&D at our age are into MMORPG's. WotC may lose, they may have bet all the money on the wrong number and taken the wrong tack and sacrificed their older hard core audience for the possibility of reaching those little lawn-treading bastards, but by golly, they've got no other choice. They've got to fight this battle.
If they fail, 3e will live on. The OGL will live on. You will have 3e products for the rest of your natural life so long as you and a sufficient number of persons demand the products. But you will not have WotC if they do not reach further. You will not have official D&D. You will have a product neglected in the face of better margins on magic cards, discarded, abandoned, and kept alive only for as long as this generation plays.
And then it will be gone.
So I am here, on my horse, telling you that this is a battle WotC has to fight. This is a battle WotC has to win. We can keep playing 3.5 if it doesn't work, Paizo will still be here, and we can all ride into the sunset together, the last generation of gamers. But this is something that could keep our hobby alive and growing. The least we can do is give it a shot.
Carry on with your dancing though Sebastian. It's cheering me up!
dance dance dance
You could at least throw some money in my can you cheap skate.
But get off my lawn!
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But think of this Aubrey. If this whole 4e tabletop over the internet thing works well, we can play a real game. That's what I'm most excited about. Yes, yes, I know that fantasy grounds exists, blah, blah, blah, but this is WotC with the flagship D&D product. If this can't make online tabletop work, nothing will.
Very true - and if it comes to pass, that would be deeply cool.
Sorry I don't have a gap right now - my RotRL was a bit of a closed shop, and with my apparently awesome DM'ing style no one wanted to drop out from my Eberron. Then Fakey barged in and it all went to hell - eight players for an AP designed for four. Still, it will be interesting trying to adapt it. Anyway, sorry for the hijack, folks - just me and Sebastian having a chat.
Weird. I had no clue that Sebastian was all moon-eyed over a corporation. And here I thought he was a bastion of level-headedness. Shame on me!Check my profile - I am the Man. Woot!
I am not going to express my personal opinion about 4e or not to 4e at this time, but I find it surprising to hear about such faith in the "flagship". It seems to me that large corporate groups generally have a losing track record in comparison to small dedicated folks when it comes to creative endeavors. Paizo might be one example. OpenSource software vs. Microsoft is an excellent example. Google would be the black sheep I think.What about nintendo and the DS/Wii? Toyota?
Wizards has to do something or this hobby will go the route of war games. I'm out here on the horse, face half painted in blue, to tell you that. They are the leaders, this is our hobby. The D&D boards are dominated by us old crusty folks, kids that would've gotten into D&D at our age are into MMORPG's. WotC may lose, they may have bet all the money on the wrong number and taken the wrong tack and sacrificed their older hard core audience for the possibility of reaching those little lawn-treading bastards, but by golly, they've got no other choice. They've got to fight this battle.
If they fail, 3e will live on. The OGL will live on. You will have 3e products for the rest of your natural life so long as you and a sufficient number of persons demand the products. But you will not have WotC if they do not reach further. You will not have official D&D. You will have a product neglected in the face of better margins on magic cards, discarded, abandoned, and kept alive only for as long as this generation plays.
And then it will be gone.
So I am here, on my horse, telling you that this is a battle WotC has to fight. This is a battle WotC has to win. We can keep playing 3.5 if it doesn't work, Paizo will still be here, and we can all ride into the sunset together, the last...
Huzzah, Sebastian! Our once and future king/lawyer!
El Skootro
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sorry I don't have a gap right now - my RotRL was a bit of a closed shop, and with my apparently awesome DM'ing style no one wanted to drop out from my Eberron. Then Fakey barged in and it all went to hell - eight players for an AP designed for four. Still, it will be interesting trying to adapt it. Anyway, sorry for the hijack, folks - just me and Sebastian having a chat.
I so wish these boards had a message system.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Finally, and this is somewhat speculative, I suspect that 4e will be released under a modified OGL; fans will be able to put up their own material for free, while publishers will be expected to pay a license fee. This is a good thing, in my opinion. With third ed you saw a lot of low-quality material that should have been free fan works, but thanks to the PDF market it was sold alongside higher quality works. I think a licensing fee will split the current miasma of third party material into high-quality books and free fan-projects, which is good news for everyone.
[/list]
Note that this would remove the "Open" from OGL.
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A lot of people said they would never switch from 2nd Ed. (except for a few like Lawgiver) but when they discovered just how good the 3e stuff was they jumped to get their hands on it. If 4th Ed. is brilliant then people will buy it. Even those who a cynically deriding it now.
Which, while I'm apprehensive about 4e (and I think its coming too soon after the heels of 3.5), I'll not tout that I will not migrate. If it is brilliant (and reasonably backwards compatible), I'll be there with bells on.
As for 2e, I was already of the opinion that it sucked, mechanics-wise, in comparison with other RPGs well before 3e was ever announced. 3e just had the fortune of not sucking--hence, I migrated without any complaints. Of course, websites like Eric Noah's certainly helped abate any potential apprehension with the constant news, rumors and leaks.
I'm kinda scared. Do you have uber-telepathy skills?
That was exactly the same situation I was thinking about (and the same experience I went through).
Whoa.
Hm...maybe I do? Anyways, its good to see like-minded people out there. Now I just need a WOTC logo to burn here in Zwolle and I'll be all over CNN baby!
Wizards has to do something or this hobby will go the route of war games. I'm out here on the horse, face half painted in blue, to tell you that. They are the leaders, this is our hobby. The D&D boards are dominated by us old crusty folks, kids that would've gotten into D&D at our age are into MMORPG's. WotC may lose, they may have bet all the money on the wrong number and taken the wrong tack and sacrificed their older hard core audience for the possibility of reaching those little lawn-treading bastards, but by golly, they've got no other choice. They've got to fight this battle.
If they fail, 3e will live on. The OGL will live on. You will have 3e products for the rest of your natural life so long as you and a sufficient number of persons demand the products. But you will not have WotC if they do not reach further. You will not have official D&D. You will have a product neglected in the face of better margins on magic cards, discarded, abandoned, and kept alive only for as long as this generation plays.
And then it will be gone.
So I am here, on my horse, telling you that this is a battle WotC has to fight. This is a battle WotC has to win. We can keep playing 3.5 if it doesn't work, Paizo will still be here, and we can all ride into the sunset together, the last...
These are excellent points. Thanks for that. Very interesting indeed. I may paint a little blue war paint on myself, but I may approach the battle with less faith that our "leaders" know what the hell they are doing. No, that's not right. I have less faith that our "leaders" can effectively implement the battle plan. Are we to be just cannon fodder trampled under the inexorable treads of the MMORPG tanks? Are the generals fighting for our way of life or just to "win" more territory?
*flips some change into the tattered hat on the sidewalk in front of the dancing lawyer*
*while the lawyer is counting his change, runs onto the lawyers lawn and rolls around in it, luxuriating in the feel of stolen grass*
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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These are excellent points. Thanks for that. Very interesting indeed. I may paint a little blue war paint on myself, but I may approach the battle with less faith that our "leaders" know what the hell they are doing. No, that's not right. I have less faith that our "leaders" can effectively implement the battle plan. Are we to be just cannon fodder trampled under the inexorable treads of the MMORPG tanks? Are the generals fighting for our way of life or just to "win" more territory?
No doubt I would much prefer to go into this battle with Ryan Dancey and Peter Adkinson at the helm, but there are still some good people over there.
Edit: and it looks like Ryan is imagining something along the lines of what I've been posting about. Read this:
http://web.mac.com/rsdancey/iWeb/RSDanceyBlog/Blog/37BD73C7-DC93-4AF0-A22A- 4DE479E1191F.html
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As I noted, at the moment I don't know any detail more than everyone else here. So it's just the gut feeling I've got from "emphasize faster game play", the whole D&D Insider online thing, and the trend I've witnessed in the latest supplements for 3.5 edition.Fair enough. I guess here is what I'm imagining. You know how in videogames, like diablo, you've gor your paper doll for your character and inventory slots? And you can drag equipment on to the character to equip it?
Okay, now imagine you can do that on the mycharacter page and it updates your character to have the equipment. And it subtracts the gold out. And it calculates encumbrance. And AC. And speed.
Imagine a WOW or CoH Avatar page where you can choose the "look" of your character. Size, colorscheme, scars/hair/etc. Then it gets incorporated it into your character sheet. As opposed to the current system of searching on google for a picture that's "sorta close". Hmmm.. why didn't I think of this before?
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I think it slightly humorous that, with the two "preview" books, they will be having FANS pay THEM for their advertisement of the 4th edition.
Heh. Brilliant I suppose, but just seems odd to pay a company in order to view their advertisement.
Ah well. I won't say I will not be picking up 4th edition *shrug* Who knows. But I'm leaning towards not getting into it.
I haven't bought a product from WotC since the core three 3.5 books. I don't feel that this will get me to either.
Assuming the speculation on 4th edition is true, does anyone know how/if this will affect the recently-revamped Star Wars RPG? Will Wizards try to revamp all their d20 products to fit whatever changes they'll make in 4th edition, or will it be more a D&D-specific change?
No doubt I would much prefer to go into this battle with Ryan Dancey and Peter Adkinson at the helm, but there are still some good people over there.
Edit: and it looks like Ryan is imagining something along the lines of what I've been posting about. Read this:
http://web.mac.com/rsdancey/iWeb/RSDanceyBlog/Blog/37BD73C7-DC93-4AF0-A22A- 4DE479E1191F.html
Absolutely. I mean no disrespect to any individual person at WoTC. But their size and glossy corporate cover raise my filthy-hippy hackles. Hmmph. I'd better go hug a tree somewhere.
Your link didn't seem to work. Try again?
No doubt I would much prefer to go into this battle with Ryan Dancey and Peter Adkinson at the helm, but there are still some good people over there.
Edit: and it looks like Ryan is imagining something along the lines of what I've been posting about. Read this:
http://web.mac.com/rsdancey/iWeb/RSDanceyBlog/Blog/37BD73C7-DC93-4AF0-A22A- 4DE479E1191F.html
Absolutely. I mean no disrespect to any individual person at WoTC. But their size and glossy corporate cover raise my filthy-hippy hackles. Hmmph. I'd better go hug a tree somewhere.
Your link didn't seem to work. Try again?
Here you are.
El Skootro
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Your link didn't seem to work. Try again?
http://web.mac.com/rsdancey/iWeb/RSDanceyBlog/Blog/37BD73C7-DC93-4AF0-A22A- 4DE479E1191F.html
If that doesn't work, just google ryan dancey blog. It's the most recent post by him. I would copy and paste it here, but I'm not sure that he would appreciate that.
Edit: Thanks ES!
The whole thing is gonna be a miniature driven board game of costly add ons and playsets.
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Assuming the speculation on 4th edition is true, does anyone know how/if this will affect the recently-revamped Star Wars RPG? Will Wizards try to revamp all their d20 products to fit whatever changes they'll make in 4th edition, or will it be more a D&D-specific change?
http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html
The end of the 3rd paragraph would seem to indicate that Saga was an inspiration for 4th Ed., which makes sense to think about it.
The Book of 9 Swords bit though...not sure about that. I fliped though it and put it down never to touch it again.
Dont know about some of that art though - if it even pretains to 4th Edition. The WAR bit is good...don't know about that concept sketch.
Nice new logo though.
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http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.htmlThe end of the 3rd paragraph would seem to indicate that Saga was an inspiration for 4th Ed., which makes sense to think about it.
Frankly, I'm encouraged by the SW reference. I really liked the Saga feats/talents/skills revamp, especially from a GM point of view. Makes it much easier to create NPC's quickly and easily.
Also, I know some weren't in favor of it, but I really like the fewer hits higher damage system they put into Saga. High level stats like +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2 just make my head hurt, honestly.
Just found this interesting link on ENWorld:
http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/inquest/005672645.cfm
Some interesting tidbits from the article (go check it out anyway for the grand Wayne Reynolds painting and a cool (William O'Connor?) Tiefling):
"...they know there’s nothing the rules can do to keep a party’s mage and barbarian from wasting 15 minutes screaming over tactics at the start of every combat, but at least they can get you out of grappling details a bit faster."
"In essence, what you’re going to see mechanically is the d20 system evolved"
"...you might see some of the traditional classes fall out of the base book in favor of sexier roles. The same thing will happen to the races covered in the core books, where the half-demon tieflings will claim a place at the expense of an undisclosed race"
"And yes, Wizards does recommend you begin new campaigns with Fourth Edition. “It’s not going to be as huge a jump,” as from Second Edition to Third Edition, said Slavicsek, “but there’s enough changing in the core system of how we are doing classes and races and characters that we’re not even gonna attempt it—we’re just telling you it’s better to start over.” "
"“If you think of your favorite movie double-DVD set, the movie is the books, and all the specials, that’s D&D Insider,” said Slavicsek"
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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"...you might see some of the traditional classes fall out of the base book in favor of sexier roles. The same thing will happen to the races covered in the core books, where the half-demon tieflings will claim a place at the expense of an undisclosed race"
Thank god. May this be the final nail in the "maybe it will be classless" coffin.
Well, I´ll still wait and see.
But basically, I see here some hysteria similar to the time 2e was about to be published - there were doomsayers as well. See what has come of it.
The notion entertained by quite some people here that they won´t buy the 4e stuff shows that WotC is right to do the upgrade in first place. Of course, Wotc/Hasbro wants to make more money - thats the basic goal of any company. In the RPG market, small as it may be, the most money is made with basic rulesets. The average gamer buys one, perhaps a second for other gamers. So, that particular niche is sated one day. So the company decides to publish a new edition of the basic rules, to stay in business and make more money. Old farts like me are hesitant to buy the new stuff - perhaps rightfully so, as we have more rules and stuff than we can use in our remaining lifetime.
So, if the old guard is wary to buy the new stuff, the company needs to get new customers. If I hear the stories on these boards at what age people started playing D&D (or another RPG), most of them were young - in their teens. Only very few folks in their twenties, let alone thirties or even older started playing - and this will probably stay that way. So, WotC has to cater to the teenagers to stay in business. The average teenager of today (in the western world, with a decent education, I might add) is computer savvy in a way we old farts will never be. And they have quite some money to spend. To get in those teenagers pockets, the company has to offer some cool computer stuff, with some flash-bang to go with it and it has to be easily used as well. WoW is such a huge success because it works on these basics.
So, thinking about it, there is no other way to go for WotC than "digital" (online), and basically aimed at teens.
I don´t necessarily appreciate this development, but I see it as logical and a necessary evil. I still prefer tabletop RPG all time, but I will look at the stuff WotC has to offer.
I can understand what Sebastian said above - there is no other choice.
Stefan
Slavicsek promises that any beloved races cut from the core books will appear in early Fourth Edition expansions.
WHAT THE HELL??? Why cut them and put them in a sourcebook in first place ? The cycle is really endless...
Stefan
SAVE THE GNOMES!!!
reading in the press releases (on enworld) that the D&Dinsider will cost $9.95 per month does not make me happy... for 120 $ a year, it´d better be real good...
Stefan
