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To address the OP's question about how the party would know that Ahazu would accept a CR 19 creature and his own tooth as payment, there is an obvious simple answer. The party has had his tooth for awhile. Since it is an artifact associated with he and his followers, let him detect it's presence and offer a compromising bargain. Have him tell the party when he demands a creature of greater power to Shami Amoure that he will accept a creature of Shami's power if they will also return the artifact of his followers to him that is in their posession. They have had the tooth since Tides of Dread, and since it is an artifact and he can communicate with the mind of one of the PC's to make his demands anyway, just have him offer that as a compromise when he makes the initial offer. The adventure is very clear that Ahazu wants the tooth back badly, which is why he would accept a creature of CR 19 to begin with. Having him demand the artifact with a lesser replacement prisoner isn't any "wonkier" than asking them for a replacement prisoner or their souls in the first place.
Laeknir, I think the problem with coming up with any sort of minimal conditions that the bad guys would accept is that their responses are pretty heavily dependent on the PCs. If the PCs come in and are gung-ho about being good and saving the world, the Demon Lords will know that the PCs are willing to sacrifice a lot in order to get the mission accomplished. If the PCs seem like they're just in it for the ride, the Demon Lords might get a kick out of them being so brave/stupid and may offer help without much in return. These are unpredictable paragons of chaos after all.
El Skootro
Well in regards to your original question. I think that a lot of the Abyssal deals the charactes make wouldn't necessarily effect a paladin.
1. Neogtiating aid from Orcus- well maybe the paladin shouldn't be diplomat in the party to be bargaining with Orcus, but I don't think that it would be that big a deal to his paladiness if the party cuts a deal with Orcus. First of all the paladin won't be spending time with Orcus, so he wouldn't count as an evil associate/companion/hireling. 2nd Orcus is remaining in the Abyss. This is key to me. If Demogorogon's ritual was taking place on the material plane and Orcus was being brought to the material plane to fight Demogorgon there would be big problems with garnering his aid. However, Orcus is not leaving his native plane, so you aren't really furthering any kind of evil cause. The Abyss will always be a place of evil and chaos. Even a paladin will be smart enough to know that this is the way it has always been and always will be. In a plane of infinite chaos and evil having one demonlord battle another doesn't further the cause of evil. The cause of evil on the Abyss can't be furthered because it is already maxed out. However what it does do is help prevent the evil of the Abyss from disrupting life on the material plane, which is a good thing.
This theory I think pretty much holds true with the other encounters as well.
Yes the paladin may want to cast an atonement spell after every visit with an Abyssal power. I'm also sure he'd want a long cold shower after visiting Malcanthet, and he would fall if he were to kiss her. However, as long as he atones for visiting her pleasure house and doesn't make out with her or engage in any perverse activites during his visit he should be okay (he will have proven his ability to overcome ultimate temptation). Plus getting his hands on a valuable artifact, such as the Iron Flask could be seen as a great boon to the forces of good, and worth the risk.
The Obox Ob thing shouldn't be a problem because he isn't taking the demonlord out of the Abyss. Moving a demonlord from one place in the Abyss to another isn't evil, nor does it further the cause of evil.
Negotiating with general whats his name shouldn't be a big problem as long as an atonement spell is cast afterwards.
Really its up to you to decide how much these things will affect a paladin. However, I would probably rule that because most of these deals are taking place in the Abyss and none of the demons are being removed from the Abyss that for a paladin to stand by while your companions negotiate with them isn't a big problem (especially if he atones afterward). Isn't that how religion works anyhow- you can do all the nasty stuff you want as long as you atone afterwards.
The paladin could basically say- Well I'm not going to negotiate with these fiends, because I refuse to consort with demons, but if you think that this is the best way to stop Demogorgon then I will accompany you, and I will stand by your sides to protect you from their evil and treachery. However, if I see that you are becoming infected by their corruption and taint I will seek to remove you from their presence and purify you. If this fails I may be forced to cut you down like I would them.
Come on, people. Can we at least agree that the deal with Ahazu is an editorial slip-up? You don't have to be a disruptive chaotic stupid paladin to determine that Ahazu's bargain is repugnant from a moral standpoint, a logical standpoint, and a self-preservational standpoint. Ahazu's bargain so so outrageously weighted against all conceivable interests of the PCs that no character with a functioning brain stem would ever accept Ahazu's terms. Ahazu's own minions would not accept Ahazu's terms as written. Only metagaming by the players controlling the PCs or a quick rewrite by the DM will ever allow the campaign to progress past this choke point. "Hey, the DM and module won't just arbitrarily end the game here, and we want to see the end after coming this far, so why don't we agree to the deal just so we can continue even though we can't think of a reason our characters would even consider it?"
Look, overall the campaign was a good one. It's just that Wells of Darkness had a few issues, issues that were bound to creep into such a long campaign, and that shook a few of us up. We don't want to abandon the campaign, and saying, "If you don't like it, leave it!" is no more useful as advice here than it is anywhere else.
"What are the minimum terms of the evil potential allies?" is a perfectly pertinent question, and one that may well come up in many campaigns, even campaigns without intentionally disruptive players. Shouldn't a smashing success at a critical roll or a particularly well-roleplayed interaction with an important figure have some sort of benefit?
heh, but getting orcus on should be easy... and even have him us a favor!
Just show up (projected!) and greet him as the wannabe prince of demons, pointing out that demo is still better than him.. and offering for favors later named to tell him when demo will be down, he might aswell show up with an army and claim the title... IF he has the balls! ;)
Or perhaps by dream or similar spells.
He surely will try to whack anyone who shows up mocking him :D
Obviously same offers to obox and grazzt..
Let them fight over it, hey, its the abyssal way!
The deal should be clear enough for the eladrins, its all about vegeance.. and wheter we have what it takes to finish it... and not just collect a bodycount..
Other armies enlisted should be guarantee that pretty far.. i think..
Why is Ahazu's deal so awful again? All the PCs know is that he's this demon who lords over the Wells of Darkness. His deal is that the PCs replace Shami with a more powerful creature, or fork over his tooth and replace Shami with a creature of equal power. In fact, they could try to subdue Shami after gaining her information and put her right back in the well, tooth included of course.
What's so repugnant about this again?
... You don't have to be a disruptive chaotic stupid paladin to determine that Ahazu's bargain is repugnant from a moral standpoint, a logical standpoint, and a self-preservational standpoint. Ahazu's bargain so so outrageously weighted against all conceivable interests of the PCs that no character with a functioning brain stem would ever accept Ahazu's terms....
Let me be devil's adovocate here.
repugnant for a moral standpoint - absolutely, as it should be. He is in fact a very ancient demon. The characters (and players) should have grave reservations about the deal. That is entirely the point.
... a self-preservational standpoint - at this point, the party, alone, has entered the Abyss to bring down Demogorgon. You are past self-preservation notions at this point because the very notion of taking on Demogorgon, Prince of Demons, in his own domain, with all his armies and followers would be considered a suicide mission. What makes this any different?
Now on to:
>>>>"What are the minimum terms of the evil potential allies?" is a perfectly pertinent question, and one that may well come up in many campaigns, even campaigns without intentionally disruptive players. Shouldn't a smashing success at a critical roll or a particularly well-roleplayed interaction with an important figure have some sort of benefit?<<<<
The problem here is, I can easily see the terms of the deals as being the minimum. The terms of the deals could be far more dire and costly for the party. A near infinite number of demons to command and do what you want - Why would a demon lord / prince need the party at all.
For example:
Orcus to party "Tell you what - kill Graz'zt for me and you got a deal."
Now this might be palatable to the clerics / paladins since killing Graz'zt would be something they would normally do but consider this:
Taking on Graz'zt would require the DM to make up a very lengthy side quest. If the DM is fine with that, okay but from a perspective of a cleric or paladin, are you not advancing Orcus's agenda and making him more powerful by removing a rival? A opportunitist slaying of Graz'zt is going to benefit some demonic power but at least it would be a wild grab for power by all demonic princes to grab what they can and plenty of casualties all around. But on Orcus's terms, he can position himself and his forces to capitalize on Graz'zt death (since he knows it is coming), take over Graz'zt's holding and armies before the other demonic powers can move in to counter.
I frankly don't see the party getting off any more cheaply than they do. We are talking dealing with demon princes, the embodiment of evil here and any deal and I mean any deal, however tame, means the demon prince is going to leverage it in some way to their benefit or they would not be agreeing to it or suggesting it in the first place.
Creative Director
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Come on, people. Can we at least agree that the deal with Ahazu is an editorial slip-up?
I certainly can agree to that. And these threads have been a great help in pointing out that slip. One of my primary design philosophies is that there should never be "absolutes" in the game. Effects that don't offer saving throws or other options for a PC to escpae/avoid and are, in effect, adventure-dictated effects that occur in boxed text and that you cannot avoid is little more than lazy design. There should have been some more discussion in "Wells of Darkness" regarding alternate methods to learn what Shami-Amourae knew, or other ways to deal with Ahazu, but two things prevented that:
1: Lack of time. With the magazines ending and our new products (for me: Pathfinder) starting up, there just wasn't enough time to devote to the development and fine-tuning for the adventures as I would have liked.
2: Lack of space: One way to make an adventure take up less space is to remove options; to make an adventure more linear. More of a railroad. In the case of Wells of Darkness, I think I probably went a bit too far; it certainly could have used some more elbow room and options. But that would have probably added, I'm estimating, 4,000 words or so in all to the adventure, which equates to about five pages of text. Those five pages would have had to come from somewhere. They likely would have come from "Shadows of Spinecastle" which would have lost its extensive appendix on the city of Spinecastle entirely. Which would have hurt that adventure more than making "Wells of Darkness" less of a railroad would have helped it.
In any case, keep in mind that no one's really seen "Prince of Demons," yet. One of the major things I did with the end of the adventure (and the end of the campaign) was spend some time talking about Ahazu and the implications of his deal with the PCs. Not only is there an option for the PCs to stick it to Ahazu and survive/escape being imprisoned by the Wells of Darkness, but one of the several "Continuing the Campaign" sections talks about the implications of Ahazu's deal.
In any event, I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone how they should play the game, nor am I advocating DMs telling players of good or lawful characters to kill off those characters. One of the goals of the campaign, though, was indeed to test convictions and morals, while at the same time tackling a story that doesn't necessarilly assume the PCs are heroes. We covered that ground in Shackled City and Age of Worms, for the most part.
So in closing... let's focus on the "how to provide advice" rather than "how to pick on paladins" angle of the problem. :)
But Paladins are so much fun to pick on, James! They are so juicy and tender, with just the right flavoring of innocence and piety! Come on, DM's love to have a Paladin for Lunch or Dinner!
I also went back to the original Savage Tide preview in issue 138, and found:
Secure the aid of Orcus, Malcanthet, or other demon lords in launching attacks on the Gaping MawGoing through this thread acting like working with minions of evil was a last minute surprise is a bit of a stretch, since it was spelled out a year ago. I don't think it should come as a surprise to anyone that the aid of a demon comes with a price.
"Securing aid" can mean a lot of things. Frankly, I was expecting a little more of the "here are some cool ideas to beat the demons at their own game, here are tools that really creative players could use to gain the upper hand while in the evil heart of the Abyss" rather than simply making profane agreements to secure aid.
But Paladins are so much fun to pick on, James! They are so juicy and tender, with just the right flavoring of innocence and piety! Come on, DM's love to have a Paladin for Lunch or Dinner!
LOL
Why is Ahazu's deal so awful again? All the PCs know is that he's this demon who lords over the Wells of Darkness. His deal is that the PCs replace Shami with a more powerful creature, or fork over his tooth and replace Shami with a creature of equal power. In fact, they could try to subdue Shami after gaining her information and put her right back in the well, tooth included of course.
What's so repugnant about this again?
Here we go again.
Demon sacrifice is evil. Making these sacrifices beings of primeval power makes it worse, and choosing sacrifices that are themselves evil does not make it all better.
Ahazu demands are excessive to an absurd degree. Ahazu demands a sacrifice "significantly more powerful" than an imprisoned [u]Demon Lord[/u]. The whole point of coming to the Wells of Darkness in the first place is because the party believes that planar exemplars are beyond their abilities.
CR 24 is mechanically unrealistic. And is also unavailable. The party is APL 19. CR 24 alone is barely manageable, and it won't be alone because if it was alone it would already be dead. Since Demogorgon's top general and clone, Bagromar, does not qualify as a sacrifice, probably nobody achievable short of Demogorgon himself will qualify.
The time limit is restrictive. Two months to raise a multi-planar alliance and beat down Demogorgon with the combined armies is an implausibly short span, and even if it was pulled off Demogorgon may still escape, and no substitute is likely to present itself. By making the deal, the party will almost certainly sabotage their own objective.
CR does not exist in-character. Ahazu's demand has a game-mechanical meaning, but the PCs do not have any way of determining whether a sacrifice is suitable except by trying it. The most reasonable course of action once the deal is made is to slaughter random beings of primeval power, sacrificing them one after another, until you finally hit one that works. The PCs have no actual reason to believe Ahazu will be satisfied by a sacrifice of any level of power, except the word of a demon lord.
There are no benefits to making the deal. Even the much-vaunted security of the Wells of Darkness as a prison fades before the simple fact that it can barely muster a 50% retainment rate, and the PCs have proof positive that Ahazu will be willing to trade their prisoner away at his discretion. Many other planar prisons have far superior retainment rates.
Ahazu's enforcement clause violates DM-player trust. Rocks fall, everyone dies. Rules are tossed away and the campaign ends, and even if the players are expecting there to be dice involved the result is predetermined.
The bargain violates the genre. Faustian bargains are supposed to be tempting. The fiend offers something incredible and demands a mere trinket, but that trinket ends up destroying the bargainer. Faust himself got nigh-infinite power, which he could retain until his natural death. Ahazu demands something incredible and offers a trinket.
The bargain is inconsistent with the rest of the adventure path. Ahazu: "I demand your souls and a sacrifice of primeval power!" Orcus: "Wow, you guys are pretty cool. I'd be happy to help you beat up that pretender."
The PCs do not know that Shami-Amourae knows anything. Or that she'll be willing to talk after escaping. And in fact, she doesn't know anything that is actually useful.
The long-term consequences of cooperating with Ahazu are worse for the multiverse than the alternative. Demogorgon's plot affects one Prime. Ahazu's plot affects all the planes, including that Prime. Judging by the text in the module, the PCs should be bargaining with Demogorgon to fight against Ahazu and not vice versa. If this is ever revealed to the players, it will make the sting of the railroad much worse.
Ahazu is in no position to bargain. Why is he demanding so much? He's stuck in a hole in the cosmos and can't get out. If the PCs surrender to his demands, it makes them unreasonably weak and pliable. They surrendered to a helpless opponent.
Offering up the Tooth changes only a few of these issues. And Ahazu does not bring up the Tooth unless they offer it, so the PCs don't actually have a reason to believe he wants it. Nor does it obviously change those issues that it does change. "As powerful as a demon lord," for instance, is not clearly different from a PC perspective than "significantly more powerful than a demon lord."
There's probably more I didn't think of just now off the top of my head. I guarantee any character can find a reason to refuse on here somewhere. James has said that the original draft of Enemies of My Enemy had stupid-abusive deals, but they were minimized in the final draft for a variety of reasons. Ahazu's deal must have sneaked by.
"Securing aid" can mean a lot of things. Frankly, I was expecting a little more of the "here are some cool ideas to beat the demons at their own game, here are tools that really creative players could use to gain the upper hand while in the evil heart of the Abyss" rather than simply making profane agreements to secure aid.
Laeknir, could you provide some of the ideas you're brewing up? Maybe if everyone knew one or two of the angles you're working on we can help you actually develop them or come up with similar and possibly better ones? Cuz right now, it's kind of tough coming up with anything to help out. You've pretty much rejected everything so far as not being precisely what you're looking for.
I would rather help than flame.
I certainly can agree to that. And these threads have been a great help in pointing out that slip.
Thanks for that, James. I understand and can sympathize with the issues you mention. It makes a big difference just to know that it is being addressed at all.
In any case, keep in mind that no one's really seen "Prince of Demons," yet. One of the major things I did with the end of the adventure (and the end of the campaign) was spend some time talking about Ahazu and the implications of his deal with the PCs. Not only is there an option for the PCs to stick it to Ahazu and survive/escape being imprisoned by the Wells of Darkness, but one of the several "Continuing the Campaign" sections talks about the implications of Ahazu's deal.
That sounds interesting. I'll look forward to that issue arriving in the mail.
...In any case, keep in mind that no one's really seen "Prince of Demons," yet.
That's completely true, and I'm getting excited that it might get here later today or tomorrow. =)
For the record, let me just say again that one poster's suggestion that I had a "hate on" for you - well, it couldn't be further from the truth.
It has been really fun thinking about all the possibilities for my PCs, precisely because it's going to test their convictions and morals, leading them into morally gray areas. It is at least as good, if not better, than the other APs because it's unique. I probably will write some new options myself or make changes depending on the final part in 150, but that's the point of being a DM.
...So in closing... let's focus on the "how to provide advice" rather than "how to pick on paladins" angle of the problem. :)
Definitely, I'm all for that. Like I said before, I've never actually run an adventure inside the Abyss - so I'm glad for advice on doing so.
Laeknir, could you provide some of the ideas you're brewing up? Maybe if everyone knew one or two of the angles you're working on we can help you actually develop them or come up with similar and possibly better ones? Cuz right now, it's kind of tough coming up with anything to help out. You've pretty much rejected everything so far as not being precisely what you're looking for. I would rather help than flame.
Thanks, and I *absolutely* don't want this to be a flame either.
I will write up some of the notes that I've been making on the various demons and their deals, then I'll post them up. If my tone has seemed all cranky, and I certainly see how it can, please bear in mind that my players are all jazzed about this because they've seen the issue covers. Also, my adventures have never really gone the "jaunting through the planes" route, so this is a rather big departure from my cities- underdark- political machinations- types of adventures and I think they will love it. But I want to do it really well, because they all fall on the higher end of the roleplayer spectrum.
I'll write up some theoretical ideas that I've been working on, though, and I'll post them later tonight. I'm a slow typist.
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Creative Director
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Demon sacrifice is evil. Making these sacrifices beings of primeval power makes it worse, and choosing sacrifices that are themselves evil does not make it all better.
Demon sacrifice is indeed evil, and if I were developing "Wells" over again, I would have probably used a different word; I certainly would have included at least one option for PCs who didn't want to sacrifice anything to Ahazu. And again, the last adventrue does address the ramifications of this scene a bit more.
Ahazu demands are excessive to an absurd degree. Ahazu demands a sacrifice "significantly more powerful" than an imprisoned [u]Demon Lord[/u]. The whole point of coming to the Wells of Darkness in the first place is because the party believes that planar exemplars are beyond their abilities.
I'll make no excuses here; Ahau's an evil monster. He's not interested in helping the PCs, really, so he makes excessive demands. In the end, he doesn't care WHO's imprisoned as long as he can absorb their power and do what he does; in this case, trading a lower CR prisoner for a higher CR one is a good deal for him. The adventure, though, expects the PCs to hand over the tooth of Ahazu, which dramatically reduces the demand.
CR 24 is mechanically unrealistic. And is also unavailable.
Unavailable until "Prince of Demons." Setting this limit at CR 24 was intentional; it basically forces the PCs to end up handing Demogorgon over to the Wells of Darkness at the end of the campaign after they defeat him. That said... there's PLENTY of CR 19+ foes for the PCs to imprison if they take the "expected" route and hand over Ahazu's tooth. And if they refuse to make Ahazu's deal at all and seek out another method to get Shami's information, keep in mind that the deal doesn't matter anyway. And I'm aware that the adventure doesn't really talk much about these alternatives, but that certainly doesn't mean that if your PCs come up with a cool idea (maybe they travel to the realm of the god of secrets or magic or something and do him/her a favor to learn how to get the book of infinite spells with the freedom spell in it, or something like that) that you shouldn't reward them by letting them bypass Ahazu entirely.
The time limit is restrictive. Two months to raise a multi-planar alliance and beat down Demogorgon with the combined armies is an implausibly short span, and even if it was pulled off Demogorgon may still escape, and no substitute is likely to present itself. By making the deal, the party will almost certainly sabotage their own objective.
Two months might seem short for some groups. For others it might be plenty of time. High level PCs have a wealth of time saving options like gate, plane shift, teleport, wind walk, etc. that can drastically reduce or even eliminate travel time. That said, if you feel that the time limit is restrictive, you should absolutely adjust it for your campaign so that it fits better with your group.
CR does not exist in-character. Ahazu's demand has a game-mechanical meaning, but the PCs do not have any way of determining whether a sacrifice is suitable except by trying it. The most reasonable course of action once the deal is made is to slaughter random beings of primeval power, sacrificing them one after another, until you finally hit one that works. The PCs have no actual reason to believe Ahazu will be satisfied by a sacrifice of any level of power, except the word of a demon lord.
I don't see this as a problem. Characters in game certainly don't call +1 swords "plus one swords," for example. In cases like this, it's easiest to assume that the "in game" parts of the conversation are translated in game, so that when a player talks about a +1 sword, his character is talking about a "once-enchanted sword" or something like that. Likewise, when a player says "A CR 22 monster" his character can be assumed to be saying "a legendary monster."
There are no benefits to making the deal. Even the much-vaunted security of the Wells of Darkness as a prison fades before the simple fact that it can barely muster a 50% retainment rate, and the PCs have proof positive that Ahazu will be willing to trade their prisoner away at his discretion. Many other planar prisons have far superior retainment rates.
I'm not sure I understand this complaint, really. 50% retainment rate? In any event, the "benefit" for making the deal is that you learn some secrets from Shami-Amourae. That the secrets she DOES reveal kind of seem underwhelming (they're maybe new to characters, but many players already know about Demogorgon's split personality) is unfortunate, but there it is.
Ahazu's enforcement clause violates DM-player trust. Rocks fall, everyone dies. Rules are tossed away and the campaign ends, and even if the players are expecting there to be dice involved the result is predetermined.
Perhaps so. But the DM doesn't (and shouldn't) tell the PCs before hand that it's a no-win situation. And as it turns out, it isn't. If the PCs go back on Ahazu's deal in "Prince of Demons," they WILL get saving throws to resit being drawn into the Wells. That's not what "Wells of Darkness" says, but that's because I changed the "no save" effect to one with a save. Which is directly attributable to these threads, to be honest. Players SHOULD have a saving throw to resist fates like this. SO: This complaint, by the time Prince of Demons is around, will have been addressed, I hope.
The bargain violates the genre. Faustian bargains are supposed to be tempting. The fiend offers something incredible and demands a mere trinket, but that trinket ends up destroying the bargainer. Faust himself got nigh-infinite power, which he could retain until his natural death. Ahazu demands something incredible and offers a trinket.
Actually, it doesn't violate a genre. Ahazu's deal isn't supposed to be a Faustian bargain. It's supposed to be a bully of a demon lord pushing the PCs around. It probably works too well in that regard. If you're looking for more Faustian bargains, check out "Enemies of my Enemy," in particular, the effects of Malcanthet's kiss.
The bargain is inconsistent with the rest of the adventure path. Ahazu: "I demand your souls and a sacrifice of primeval power!" Orcus: "Wow, you guys are pretty cool. I'd be happy to help you beat up that pretender."
Again, this is something that would have been addressed, I hope, if we had more time and space than we'd had for "Wells of Darkness." And the fact that it WAS indeed addressed by the time we got to "Enemies of my Enemy" should more or less prove that, I hope.
The PCs do not know that Shami-Amourae knows anything. Or that she'll be willing to talk after escaping. And in fact, she doesn't know anything that is actually useful.
Actually, at the end of the previous adventure and during the chat with Red Shroud, they SHOULD learn that she's got some information for them. And she does. It's a pretty well-kept secret that Demogorgon's got two at-war personalities, and that hitting him with multiple normally non-allied armies and attacks will mess him up big. That's not supposed to be common knowledge among anyone in D&D, but the fact that it's pretty much common knowledge to anyone who's read Savage Tide, Fiendish Codex I, or Book of Vile Darkness is not the same. It's basically a case of player knowledge vs. character knowledge. BUT I do agree that it could have been handled better.
The long-term consequences of cooperating with Ahazu are worse for the multiverse than the alternative. Demogorgon's plot affects one Prime. Ahazu's plot affects all the planes, including that Prime. Judging by the text in the module, the PCs should be bargaining with Demogorgon to fight against Ahazu and not vice versa. If this is ever revealed to the players, it will make the sting of the railroad much worse.
This resolves at the end of Prince of Demons. In a way, the Ahazu elements of Savage Tide are kind of setting up a possible Epic-Level sequel to Savage Tide. In any case, check out Prince of Demons for how it all resolves. And since Jeff just came by and dropped issue #150 off on my desk, I can say that yes, for real, there are more secrets to be revealed about the whole Ahazu deal. :-)
Ahazu is in no position to bargain. Why is he demanding so much? He's stuck in a hole in the cosmos and can't get out. If the PCs surrender to his demands, it makes them unreasonably weak and pliable. They surrendered to a helpless opponent.
Actually, he's in a great place to bargain. He's got nothing to lose. If he shoots for the stars and gets rejected, he's no worse off than before.
Offering up the Tooth changes only a few of these issues. And Ahazu does not bring up the Tooth unless they offer it, so the PCs don't actually have a reason to believe he wants it. Nor does it obviously change those issues that it does change. "As powerful as a demon lord," for instance, is not clearly different from a PC perspective than "significantly more powerful than a demon lord."
Actually, the PC who has the tooth should have some sort of psychic vibration or something that cues him in to this option. I'm afraid that bit might have been cut from the adventure, which is unfortunate, but in any case, the toothed PC should be able to feel a vibe that handing Ahazu the tooth will make the deal go better.
There's probably more I didn't think of just now off the top of my head. I guarantee any character can find a reason to refuse on here somewhere. James has said that the original draft of Enemies of My Enemy had stupid-abusive deals, but they were minimized in the final draft for a variety of reasons. Ahazu's deal must have sneaked by.
Actually, I'm not sure where I said that, if I ever did. The deals in "Enemies" are pretty much the exact way I'd wanted them. The deal in "Wells" was not, but as I've mentioned elsewhere, there was a lot going on at the time, and frankly, it's a little bit of a miracle that these last few issues of Dungeon actually got shipped to the printer on time. So I'm willing to live with some development errors that crept in there on "Wells of Darkness."
And that's about it. I'm not sure what else I can say about the topic. I think you're absolutely right in several cases and have great points, and when you read Prince of Demons you'll see evidence of that in the way things ended up in that adventure. At the same point, thoguh, I don't think that Wells or Enemies is "bad for the game." They're supposed to be hard adventures; not only for your stats, but for the roleplaying aspect as well. There aren't really any easy choices in the end, and not having easy choices is one of the things that makes epic stories epic.
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Creative Director
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I would suggest that in future products- particularly with the pathfinder stuff that the writers include debugging sidebars. I found that these were very helpful when I used to run Shadowrun games. The Shadowrun modules always had them, and if you ran into a situation like that they would have something like- "What to do if characters don't want to deal with Ahuzu:" and then there would be some suggestions. Like "Dealing with Ahzu isn't absolutely essential. As some of the information Shamae Armae knows can be later gleaned from conversations with Iggiwilv. Allow your PCs to continue to research weaknesses for demogorgon how they wish. One of the ways they may do this is through consultation with sages and lore on material plane. If they opt to go this route they can learn that few indivduals know more about the Abyss and its demon lords than Iggwilv and she may be an invaluable resource. However, there is one other entity who may know even more than she and it is called Dagon."
Actually, Pathfinder will indeed include sidebars like this. They'll be simialr to the ones we put into Red Hand of Doom; places where the author or editor steps in to tell anecdotes about the adventure, give tips, and explain why certain design choices were made. I'd wanted to start including these in Dungeon for many, many issues. There just never was room.
anyway.. i dont see why anyone would have to do deals with demons either.
Why not if you are a highly connected saint paladin -go check with your superiors... and recruit a horde of solars, devas the works lol
They in turn demand to see that you really are up to it, or just some other favors.. the little missions..
Oh and i don't see why a stuckup paladin wouldnt be allowed to tease the wannabe demonprinces? Come get the title, you yellow pus cowards.. its there for the taking in 1 month. Demo is going down... be there or be square!
Just a bit of extra diversion to get the angelic host to do the real job..
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Ah well. Nothing like a robust debate amongst gamer geeks to get the old blood perculating eh? I still think the adventure works fine even with paladins, but I see why others might not. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Anyway, it's the weekend, time for some gaming!!
I agree, to be honest. But then, I'm pretty lax with paladins in my games.
...
Paladins are the ones who get sneak attack, right?
anyway.. i dont see why anyone would have to do deals with demons either.
Why not if you are a highly connected saint paladin -go check with your superiors... and recruit a horde of solars, devas the works lolThey in turn demand to see that you really are up to it, or just some other favors.. the little missions..
Oh and i don't see why a stuckup paladin wouldnt be allowed to tease the wannabe demonprinces? Come get the title, you yellow pus cowards.. its there for the taking in 1 month. Demo is going down... be there or be square!
Just a bit of extra diversion to get the angelic host to do the real job..
I can think of why an army of eladrin, guardinals, archons, and angels would be a bad idea. Eledrin are the most likely to "bend rules" and throw in with the other factions to make this work, but they are only one part of the force.
If a host of angels and the like invades the Abyss, forget any infighting in the Abyss between demon lords. LAW and GOOD are attacking the Abyss! Slaughter!
The best case scenario would be that those demon lords nominally allied to Demogorgon, that will likely just step aside and let a force intent on just Demogorgon (i.e. allies like Dagon) will likely react differently if multiple armies of good and/or law enter the Abyss.
In fact, I'd say this is also a good reason for why getting the Hells involved isn't likely a good idea either. Demon lords wailing on other demon lords, maybe with a few eledrin involved and a party of mortals? No big deal. Allow devils to participate in a meaningful manner in an assault that weakens a demonic ruler in the Abyss? Never!
Now, I would be interested to see if, for example, the Eladrin try to stay and do too much damage to the forces of chaos and evil in the Abyss, and thus draw the attention of the Rilmani or Inevitables to oppose them and let the Abyss sort itself out.
I've said it once and I'll say it again: Paladins are the HARDEST PC class to properly play. Most come off stuck up and inflexible. Only a few players can pull off a great Paladin.
I would suggest the players not choose the class for the STAP. I would describe the setting as "Pirates, Dinosaurs, and Demons with a lovely Lovecraftian cream center".
But I know players who love the class and love a challenge. So I would suggest (as others have) that while the main body of the party moves into the Abyss to make deals with those of Chaos and Evil the Paladin takes a side trip to bring in some Lawful Good help (perhaps a group of Silver Dragons, Astral Devas, Saints, Dwarven Ancestors, Rhek, and maybe the Paladin calls for a crusade and recruits an army of like minded soldiers?). To keep the game flowing the Paladin player takes the roll of/ creates a PC or NPC to play while in the Abyss. The rest of the players can do the same when the Paladin recruits his LG allies. These secondary PCs could come in handy during the final conflict/ bloodbath. You might even suggest the party creates them early in the STAP to introduce them and flesh them out as supporting cast.
Not a perfect solution but I thought I'd try to help.
Speaking of which.. why not grab an army of modrons.. that rogue secundi?
Im sure this pretender would love the diamond mine of Diplomacy.. boosted by an army of dinos and whatever creatures of the island back home.
Anyone else been breeding kobolds?
Better yet if they already are worshipping this LN(E) power ..growing to become a full Prime?
Im sure a abyssal layer stolen as homeplane for your god to be wouldn't hurt either.
Instead of having to squat in acheron..
But those are quite individual things anyway.
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I'm thinking that maybe a army of celestials isn't the way to go, but how about the use of a couple of handy artifacts- maybe the shield of Prattor or some kind of demon killing sword. What about just a couple of angelic servants to help in the battle- maybe a Planetar special forces squad. I haven't seen the final issue yet, but if you did grant the characters something lik e this I think they'd feel good and important instead of neglected and isolated. In the final battle those allies could be busy holding off Demogorgon's body guards leaving the PCs free to fight big D. That way they could still still do something useful without the game grinding to a halt because of all the extra characters in the fight.
I really am eager to see how the final issue is set up. I hope that the final confrontation can stay dynamic and interesting and not bog down into a mechanical nightmare because of all the different factions involved. Hopefully most of that business can be kept on the side lines so that the PCs can focus on their fight with D. Still it's always nice to have a Solar watching your back. And as far as I'm concerned, if I'm a 20th level cleric going to battle the prince of demons in an attempt to save the world that is about the least my god could do help me out.
There's no way we can predict which deity a PC worships, so that type of personalized aid provided by a deity is left to the DM to develop, but I would recommend against just giving a PC cleric a free army, or even a solar bodyguard. The deities help those who help themselves, after all. Isn't it more interesting for the PCs themselves to do the hero stuff rather than having their powerful patrons and gods step in for them?
In any event, "Prince of Demons" focuses pretty tightly on the PCs themselves, and leaves the actual bulk of the war on Gaping Maw in the background. Of course, the various elements in the allegiance don't really trust each other, so it falls to the PCs to step up and take on leadership roles quite often. D&D doesn't handle mass battles well at all, though, so the actual war parts happen off screen or in the background.
So what you are saying James, is that Prince of Demons SHOULD have been called "Warhammer meets D & D"?
Whoa, lots to read!
Demon sacrifice is evil. Making these sacrifices beings of primeval power makes it worse, and choosing sacrifices that are themselves evil does not make it all better.
I only did a quick skim of the adventure, but I saw the word imprisonment used a lot. I think the PCs are going to believe that they are essentially jailing a powerful evil creature. Ahazu doesn't mention anything about what happens to the creatures in the wells, and I don't think anyone other than Ahazu knows the truth anyway. The PCs would have to assume that is the case, with little more than their hunch to go on. That's a good reason to free Shami, though - not only to ask about Demo, but perhaps she knows something about these wells as well.
Ahazu demands are excessive to an absurd degree. Ahazu demands a sacrifice "significantly more powerful" than an imprisoned [u]Demon Lord[/u]. The whole point of coming to the Wells of Darkness in the first place is because the party believes that planar exemplars are beyond their abilities.
Giving Ahazu his tooth back relaxes his demands a bit. At that point he'll accept a creature as powerful as Shami, perhaps even Shami herself! After the PCs subdue a suitable monster they can use contact other plane, wish, miracle, etc. the ask Ahazu if the monster is good enough. Or they can just plane shift/teleport there and ask.
CR 24 is mechanically unrealistic. And is also unavailable. The party is APL 19. CR 24 alone is barely manageable, and it won't be alone because if it was alone it would already be dead. Since Demogorgon's top general and clone, Bagromar, does not qualify as a sacrifice, probably nobody achievable short of Demogorgon himself will qualify.
I think that is the point though, that Demo is a perfect choice for imprisonment in the wells. Also, if the PCs keep the tooth and decide to drag a CR 24 beast to the wells, well, there are quite a few CR 24 monsters I can think of that the PCs could hunt down and attempt to subdue. It might not be easy, but at that level PCs can accomplish seemingly anything - death is a minor speed bump, distance is trivial, etc.
The time limit is restrictive. Two months to raise a multi-planar alliance and beat down Demogorgon with the combined armies is an implausibly short span, and even if it was pulled off Demogorgon may still escape, and no substitute is likely to present itself. By making the deal, the party will almost certainly sabotage their own objective.
Almost certainly? That sounds more railroady than anything else I've read yet! With PCs, where there is a will, there is a way. A CR 24 encounter can very easily be called with a gate spell. Give Ahazu his tooth and all you need is a CR 19 creature. Heck of a lot easier than the CR 24 route you keep seeming to assume the PCs are going to choose.
CR does not exist in-character. Ahazu's demand has a game-mechanical meaning, but the PCs do not have any way of determining whether a sacrifice is suitable except by trying it. The most reasonable course of action once the deal is made is to slaughter random beings of primeval power, sacrificing them one after another, until you finally hit one that works. The PCs have no actual reason to believe Ahazu will be satisfied by a sacrifice of any level of power, except the word of a demon lord.
Yeah, the word of a demon lord. They're releasing a demon lord for a chance to talk to her BTW. There is some stock to be put in the word of a demon, IMO.
As for CR, Ahazu can indicate what would make suitable replacements with a few prime examples. If the PCs are willing to pony up the tooth, he can say that he'd settle for a pit fiend in her stead, or a creature of similar power. CR 24? Ahazu could claim that only a creature with power to rival the greatest wyrms is all he'd accept. Simple, no?
There are no benefits to making the deal. Even the much-vaunted security of the Wells of Darkness as a prison fades before the simple fact that it can barely muster a 50% retainment rate, and the PCs have proof positive that Ahazu will be willing to trade their prisoner away at his discretion. Many other planar prisons have far superior retainment rates.
Huh? Haven't only like three beings ever escaped from the wells? How many creatures are currently imprisoned in the wells again? I'm sure the escaped/imprisoned ratio is skewed far greater to the right than 50%. I've been wrong before though. *^o^*
The bargain violates the genre. Faustian bargains are supposed to be tempting. The fiend offers something incredible and demands a mere trinket, but that trinket ends up destroying the bargainer. Faust himself got nigh-infinite power, which he could retain until his natural death. Ahazu demands something incredible and offers a trinket.
Aren't Faustian bargains made with devils only? Isn't this just an agreement made between demon and mortal?
The bargain is inconsistent with the rest of the adventure path. Ahazu: "I demand your souls and a sacrifice of primeval power!" Orcus: "Wow, you guys are pretty cool. I'd be happy to help you beat up that pretender."
Different demons, different motivations. I don't see a problem with this.
The PCs do not know that Shami-Amourae knows anything. Or that she'll be willing to talk after escaping. And in fact, she doesn't know anything that is actually useful.
No, but that is the assumption. If the PCs assume that she might not know anything, then they might not even go to the wells. The thing is, when the DM drops a hint to seek Shami out, they'll most likely take the lead and expect something from it. And in fact she DOES know something useful. Nobody knows that Demo can be paralyzed by an overload of situations and circumstances. Not many people know that Demo's two personalties have it out for each other either. All of this info will be useful to the PCs.
The long-term consequences of cooperating with Ahazu are worse for the multiverse than the alternative. Demogorgon's plot affects one Prime. Ahazu's plot affects all the planes, including that Prime. Judging by the text in the module, the PCs should be bargaining with Demogorgon to fight against Ahazu and not vice versa. If this is ever revealed to the players, it will make the sting of the railroad much worse.
Only the DM knows what Ahazu is doing with the prisoners in the wells. Ahazu doesn't tell the PCs, he hasn't told anyone else, and as far as the adventure is concerned, Ahazu is the only one that knows. The PCs have just as much proof that Ahazu is satisfying his tickle fetish in those black waters as they do that he is ascending to some new level of power at the prisoner's expense.
Ahazu is in no position to bargain. Why is he demanding so much? He's stuck in a hole in the cosmos and can't get out. If the PCs surrender to his demands, it makes them unreasonably weak and pliable. They surrendered to a helpless opponent.
He very much IS in a position to bargain. He has something the PCs want, and the PCs have no way of forcing him to accept any demands they make themselves. He wants his tooth back, sure, but if he doesn't reclaim the tooth then he's still no worse off than before. Sounds like the perfect position to bargain from. If they do not agree to his terms then he says "See ya later!" and the PCs are out of luck.
Offering up the Tooth changes only a few of these issues. And Ahazu does not bring up the Tooth unless they offer it, so the PCs don't actually have a reason to believe he wants it. Nor does it obviously change those issues that it does change. "As powerful as a demon lord," for instance, is not clearly different from a PC perspective than "significantly more powerful than a demon lord."
The text of the adventure states that "If the PCs are willing to place the tooth of Ahazu in the well..." that he'll relax his demands. It says nothing of Ahazu keeping the tooth a secret unless the PCs bring it up. Ahazu should bring the tooth up at the same time he brings up his other demands.
Whew!
What's this 50% rate of retention nonsense? I don't have fiendish codex 1 on me right now, but I think the phrasing is something like "it is easier to list the few that escaped (like, say, Siragle) than the many who remain..." The wells of darkness is a pretty darned dire fate for anyone. I'm actually kinda shocked Mal's master plan is to engineer Shami's escape, because you can pretty much rest assured she'll plot some serious revenge (and knowing my player characters, I wouldn't put it past them to help her plan it).
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Speaking of Mass battles. I'm kind of surprised you guys didn't use the VP and heroes of battle stuff again like in Tides of Dread. It was probably a space thing, but I thought that was a pretty cool aspect about TofD that would have worked well in the last few issues of the AP.
I'd still want a Solar or a gold dragon. Sure its fun to be the heroes and do it on your own, but its also fun to have the dm hand you a stat sheet for a solar and say here's your help go to town. Plus it gives a backup character to run when your PC gets wasted.
It was partially a space thing, but it was more of a theme thing. The war on Gaping Maw is background. It's purpose is to distract Demogorgon long enough for the PCs to get in and stop the savage tide. It therefore doesn't matter who wins or who loses the battle really, so there was no need to use a victory point mechanic.
We DO have a set of circumstances that, if the PCs manage to accomplish them, weaken Demogorgon somewhat so that when he DOES show up... you have a better chance to escape (or perhaps even defeat him).
You don't really even need to kill Demogorgon to prevent the savage tide, to be honest.
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What's this 50% rate of retention nonsense? I don't have fiendish codex 1 on me right now, but I think the phrasing is something like "it is easier to list the few that escaped (like, say, Siragle) than the many who remain..." The wells of darkness is a pretty darned dire fate for anyone. I'm actually kinda shocked Mal's master plan is to engineer Shami's escape, because you can pretty much rest assured she'll plot some serious revenge (and knowing my player characters, I wouldn't put it past them to help her plan it).
Keep in mind also that the Wells of Darkness have been around for a LONG time. Who knows how long... but it's probably in the order of thousands or maybe even tens of thousands or more of years. To have only 3-4 prisoners escape in that amount of time is pretty good.
As for what Shami does when she gets out... that's talked about in the last adventure as well. Malcanthet, for her part, isn't too worried. She put Shami down once before. She can do it again. Unless, of course, Shami does something unexpected... like team up with some folk that Malcanthet doesn't expect her to team up with...
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Its probably good that you don't have to kill him. I'd rather see him survive. Demogorgon's been around way too long to be taken out by a band of punk ass mortals. He shouldn't go down like that.
Agreed.
AND: Even if he IS killed... he'll be back. Obox-ob and Orcus, for example, have both been killed and they're still around.
James, I wanted to say "Thank You" for you input on this thread and others. It helps having one of the evil genuises that created STAP to help explain how to improve it!
Okay, here's a few notes on some possible changes I'd make. Granted, they're just very initial ideas and I'm not certain they'd work out. Just posting them as an exercise in possibility.
It's a long novel because it's a bunch of mostly random ideas.
I think players should get much more of an opportunity to "appeal" to the various lusts, profane passions, and hatreds that drive demons. They should, if they're crafty, try to come up with loopholes or things that are similar, things that they could use to barter the offered deals down to something more reasonable (but still dangerous to them). Given that Orcus has died at least once and Obox-Ob has rebuilt himself from an aspect (after he and all its other aspects were destroyed), they perhaps have unique weaknesses that could be noted by PCs and used as part of their negotiations. Clerics or Paladins who are inspired enough to first visit their own deity’s plane and ask for assistance should be given an audience of some sort... or a communing, a visitation by an aspect or a celestial representative, whatever serves best.
If-when they do, much more of a discussion as to why direct involvement of the deity or its armies should be explained (they are fighting on many fronts now, and a direct assault on the Abyss would not be prudent) – but the deity or representative should offer aid in some form. Their own knowledge of Demogorgon could prove useful, particularly if they’ve tangled with him in the past. Pelor might offer info that could be used against Orcus, for example, but certainly his followers have also fought against Demogorgon in some way and the story of that fight might prove helpful. This might also be an interesting way to reassure the PCs of their course, remind them to walk the straight and narrow, and so on. Maybe also a way to provide them with a few items of power, particularly if the PCs have used up a lot of expendables... something to protect against negative energy, give a better defense against evil or magic, or items with specific bonuses against demons. Maybe a really cool minor artifact specific to a PC’s class and the deity’s domain could be "retrieved" on a short side quest. The quest could even "teach" them indirectly about fighting 2-headed demons and maybe save a village (or a faithful hero loyal to the deity) in a conflict that the deity is currently "working on" – for example, recovering a holy warblade that was stolen from a Heironean Knight and hidden in a demiplane guarded by a demonic minion of Hextor, or a miniature sundial necklace made by a long-ago thaumaturge who worshipped Pelor. The demon guarding this minor artifact might also be a "relation" to Demogorgon in some way, like a 3rd or 4th generation demonic cast-off where Demo was the original progenitor… or maybe a failed experiment of Demo’s from ages ago that wasn’t up to snuff.
Ahazu: They should have the option as it’s written of course, but there should be several other options as well. For evil parties, perhaps bringing him a captured celestial being of some sort, and he would give examples. Another option, the prison is "weird" enough that I’d suggest from Ahazu that he might let them "question" Shami-Amourae for the Tooth – and a chance at their lives and souls. To win against her, they’d have to defeat her in combat "within the prison" and if they beat her (not mentioning Molypente, who Ahazu knows about), Ahazu will forcibly exact true answers from the PCs questions. If one of the PCs "dies" in combat, the soul of that PC remains Ahazu’s. And they could perhaps argue him down to "if all the PCs die, then he gets their souls... but not otherwise. It’s entertainment, after all, and few come provide such; and anyway, he stands to lose nothing in the bargain." Of course, he could laugh about perhaps "keeping them anyway" inside the prison (since they're already partway in), so maybe an item that they'd received from the communion with their deity would prevent this.
Charon: no real changes here. He’s nice and creepy as it is.
Iggwilv: still working on her, and I’ll post another bit tomorrow. She seems a bit underused in the adventure.
Orcus: I wouldn’t make changes here, really. I liked the whole picture of Orcus throwing off maggots as he laughs evilly at them. And even though they might have difficulty with his champion, they should still fret a little about the ease with which he agrees to take part.
Andros: I wouldn’t present Andros in quite this way. Why would a CG Eladrin act this way? A chaotic being’s disdain for law wouldn’t make him act like such an incredible snert, particularly if he has heard of these heroes from Morwel. He’s an eladrin, after all, not a human with a human's ego. For his chaotic bent, I’d make him hesitant to serve their needs, reluctant to take them before his queen (catching the scent of the Styx is good enough) without a few tests. He can be playful, joking around and intent on having a good time for himself, brushing off PCs worries about time. Perhaps a cluster of fey creatures could arrive and start an impromptu dance with the players, initially thinking they're new soul-arrivals. Andros would think this a hilarious joke. If they pester him with "need to go now!", then he breaks out his tests to see if they're worthy. Maybe he would wink and whistle at attractive female PCs as they work up a sweat in his tests. Also, he shouldn’t be such a little whiner to Celeste... he’s an eladrin, not a little simpering minion in a B-movie. Celeste should roll her eyes, chuckle, and let him finish his "last" test, but 'tsk-tsk' him back to his hunt and then escort them up to Morwel while being very amused. I’d make her seem more sprightly than written, with a touch of concern for them over their quest. As Andros leaves for his hunt, he should whistle for the moondogs to follow him... then wink at lawful PCs or maybe give them a hearty slap on the back and a "no offence, eh, Mr. Lawful Paladin of the Human God Heironeous, still friends?"
Morwel: I’d transfer quite a bit of her dialogue to Gwynharwyf, who herself should be first portrayed as cheerful and rambunctious until she hears of their war against Demo. Then she should get a gleam in her eye and agree after a little story about her last fight against him. She should then note to Morwel that *her* upcoming quest to save the Star from Redfang will have to wait if she is to make necessary preparations for her army. Morwel could consider this and then regard the PCs thoughtfully, making a request for them to save the Star from the dragon. After all, the Star is being slowly digested... and it would also save time that Gwyn could put toward prep vs. Demogorgon and the PCs "could perhaps keep the linnorm’s hoard" as well as save the Star. After such a long life and having killed so many, the linnorm "is sure to have things that also might be of use against abyssal enemies".
Malcanthet: more coming
Obox-Ob: more coming
Bagromar: more coming
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Meh. They (paladins) should be prestige classes anyway.
Just come over from the 'Non-Generic Cleric' thread, where I was intending to suggest an alternative Prestige Cleric, to complement the Prestige Paladin optional rule.
I've often thought this, as the archetypal 'paladin' to many, is an experienced warrior, who is picked for greatness based on his reputation for resisting evil and temptation (emphasis mine).
I find it difficult to visualise a 1st-level paladin, since, yes, the churches may have young warriors in training, but how are they to establish the potential of such untried youths? You may say the high priest can detect their alignment, and the level of their appropriate stats (esp. Wis & Cha), but this gives no indication of future moral strength.
Allowing paladins (and maybe even clerics) to be prestige classes does seem tempting, but then you realise that the player, who has played his character in an exemplary way, all through his career to date, has to spend a level to get new class features, just like everyone else, and you just wonder, well what was the point? Where is the reward?
Maybe, there is a case for a campaign in which the gods are dead, missing, imprisoned or reduced in power, in which the traditional divine characters do not exist at all in the PHB sense (ie, as base classes), but when a character has completed a quest of importance, to aid a deity, or to release divine energy into their world, they gain an aquired template, which grants clerical/paladin/avenger/etc spell-use, and class abilities. Or even allows the character to 'rebuild' themselves from the ground up (a la PHB2), trading in existing levels for divine class levels, such as already happens with a fallen paladin/blackguard?
Any thoughts?
Ahazu: another option – again, just some random thoughts -
This demon might not be highly motivated to escape his own "prison", but his interest in helping the PCs might be sparked in a different way. As I understand it, long ago his cultists built the Overlook and then took off to fight Orcus in an attempt to lead him back to a well and entrap him for Ahazu. Unfortunately, Orcus wiped out those cultists and that plan utterly failed. It’s not impossible, though, that one of those cultists escaped through a plane shift and managed to regroup a few remaining forces. That was ages ago, though, and the cult members still alive started recruiting and rebuilding. They were afraid to approach Ahazu until strong again, and once the escapee died they had a lot to rebuild indeed. Ahazu *might* be interested in reclaiming the soul of that final escapee and a) finding out where an old cult artifact was hidden, b) having the players pull the rebuilt and revived cult back to serve him in this plane, c) or saving the cult members from an ambush by goodly forces and the PCs have to negotiate with a good-aligned forces for the safe "relocation" of the Cult back to Ahazu’s plane. Any return-revival of the Cult within Ahazu’s plane might of course irk the varrangoins, and the PCs could have to deal with that in some way. The trick with any of these here would be serving the greater good while not advancing the cause of evil. Finding the soul of the long-dead Ahazu Cultist – well, he could perhaps now be a moderately powerful undead wandering secretly in Orcus’s plane, maybe deep in hiding in the main city, and Ahazu only has a vague idea of where he is.
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Regarding the punishment for breaking the deal with Ahazu;
I haven't read this chapter yet, so I'm sketchy on the details, but maybe the Hellblazer series by DC could spark some ideas?
I seem to recall that John Constantine avoids his fate by managing to promise his soul to three separate demon lords, who are so greedy, and eager to claim such a prize, that they do not stop to check for prior claims. As his time nears, all three turn up, and he confronts them with his plan; neither can take his soul without effectively insulting or challenging the other two, and neither can allow such an insult to go unpunished, or risk open revolt of their minions. The only way for them to avoid this dilemma, and the resulting open warfare in Hell, is for all three to work together to ensure he does not die, which they do by growing him a new simulacruum body from his healthy tissue, which his soul inhabits before his old body finally succumbs to cancer.
In another story arc (which I didn't read), I believe he again managers to deceive a demon by substituting the body/soul of his unborn twin. Is this the case, any DC readers care to comment?
Now while neither of these solutions is particularly noble, at least the first is sufficiently clever to warrant a grudging round of applause...
...I seem to recall that John Constantine avoids his fate by managing to promise his soul to three separate demon lords, who are so greedy, and eager to claim such a prize, that they do not stop to check for prior claims. (...)
In another story arc (which I didn't read), I believe he again managers to deceive a demon by substituting the body/soul of his unborn twin. Is this the case, any DC readers care to comment?Now while neither of these solutions is particularly noble, at least the first is sufficiently clever to warrant a grudging round of applause...
Well, not only are these options "not particularly noble", they're actually evil. My original goal for this thread was to try and generate some ideas for paladins to help them through the various profane deals. It's changed a little to encompass additional ideas for good clerics and just generally good-aligned characters, so I'm hoping the thread doesn't drift too far afield.
A couple of things I'll note about the Constantine series (if I remember it well enough), I think he was pretty clear about finding both heaven and hell distasteful, so his motivations are pretty different than good/heroic characters. Also, I'm not sure that the denizens of the Abyss would find one single soul (or even the souls of the entire party) worth all the trouble that they'd need to go through to do what Constantine's did for him. There's no duality of heaven-hell in DnD, but rather tons of planes and a billion different goals and machinations going on, and they've been infighting over greater things than 5-6 individual souls for thousands of years. So, not sure something like that would work.
heh, almost smart plan.
But this is what they will really end up doing -turning the bastard into some exotic regenerating undead.. and tear the body into 3 pieces.. and box those. Each takes a piece back home... and that constantine is wracked by pain for all eternity ;)
Since the OP asked for "how else could this be run" This is my basic outline on my replacement installment for WoD
- I try to use as much of the original adventure as possible to ease my workload
- I tried to keep the theme "of sailing the world, then the planes" which has been part of the STAP from the earlier installments, intact and even put on a new layer
- I also wanted events from the earlier parts of the STAP be a bit of a foreshadowing. e.g. the Slaadi worshippers from Fort Blackwell.
- Since my group loves the Gith, and the motivation of the Githzerai would very well fit participation in a plot directed at foiling enslavement and later on domination and enslavment by a new deity-level demon, I couldn't resist drawing them into the fray.
- It has always been a nagging problem that Shami Amourae is supposed to escape at the wen dof WoD #148. This would not really sit well with most players I know, and by the way, what is Malcanteth thinking, letting her herstwhile competitor back into the fray ?
Whatever - feel free to borrow or steal the ideas if you want
Outline
the players get contacted by Red Shroud,, this part is going to resemble the recuritment phase of WoD pretty strongly.
the crafty succubus will then tell the PCs ( in more or less detail, depending on bribes, subterfuge, diplomacy and gifts ) who Shami Amourae is, in what predicament she is caught, perhaps a short allude to the Well's of Darkness . She then hints that Ahazu created the wells and is imprisoning powerful outsiders for an unknown purpose - but given the fact that he was a demon lord, nothing good at all.
If they want to know more, she alludes, "duke it out with him and see what he will tell you and at what price" or..... "seek out the ultimate defenders of freedom from oppression and enslavement"... and points the group to the Githzerai city of Shra'kt'or, which floats through Limbo. "if anyone knows how to escape the wells, they will have a clue"
Now the group has the choice of either getting down to matresses with Ahazu ( and they then will deserve everything coming at them) or take the cmore circumspect road through Limbo...
The "Sea Wyvern" will then sail off - via her "Wake Portal" into Limbo (which should be fun... finally getting her into "flight" after all ) where she will have to make passage to the Githzerai city (and encounter some of the strangest fauna - agressive or not - on her travels so far....
The Giths will be.... interested. For one, these mortals have sailed a ship into Limbo, broke into and out of one of Demogorgons most notorious dungeons and, being immersed in the realm of pure change, they feel that a great storm of chaos is drawing close, and while they live in Limbo, they know all too well about "Chaos untamed" to consider that a bright future.....
They also have a good idea what the Wells are all about and how they work (they are scholarly enough, they live in the Outer planes and survivie and they are pretyy smart when it comes to fighting off enslavment.... And they may even have the means to sabotage them - so they hint - if for a short time, in order to release an inmate. But why get drawn into the conflict ?
Their problem is - will they bet on the PCs group, the proverbial "Dark Horse", unknown contenders with even less known goals and morals ? They must - so the Gith be judged and weighed, to be found worthy of help There will then be a test of mettle ( fighting some nasty slaadi) and a text of character/motive.
I am thinking of the Gith ( alonside the players ) interrupting a large-scale summoning of Slaadi on the Home-plane... probably the cultists from Fort Blackwell =) Tough battle, in which the characters will have more than one hard-choice to make " save civillians or stop the Slaadi... or both", which will give the Giths insights into the groups "acceptable limits" and morals... of how they tick... This will be especially fun cause the group will be geared for "evil outsiders", making fighting the chaotic Slaadi more of a challenge and because of some massive warping of reality through the presence of many powerful Slaadi for spectacular FX. Nature's laws will be up for haggling, I guess....
In the end, the characters will (if they survive) end up with a gift of distilled essence of Limbo ("utter chaos"), which has the ability to disolve and disrupt all rules and laws and binding for a short time and space. Very volatile - DO NOT SPILL !
This stuff will be even more potent if the "Tooth of Ahazu" can be soaked with or dissolved in it, pre-tuning the essence to affect Ahazu's creations with a vengeance ----> making the ripping "uncorking" of the Well easier ( a few rounds versus perhaps an hour, during which Ahazu will realize what is happening and send out waves of minions to stop the group from succeeding ). I plan to include the chance of the group impressing/ hiring a few githzerai, who will lend a hand in this epic breaking of a prison .....
The Gith's leadership will also admonish the group to consider and reflect upon what they are about to do - going to free a very powerful succubus, a demon lord in her own right, all for the sake of a few unknown informations.... . A succubus, who will then almost certainly enslave and corrupt thousands to millions again if given time. So, are they prepared for that guilt on their conscience ? ( The Gith will make an offer of help or participation in the final alliance versus Demogorgon very much a question of how the characters deal with Shami - if they let the enslaveress run free, they will me loath to help those who value other's feedom so little...)
Upon freeing Shami (who will be weakened and disoriented, partially drained by Ahazu and trying to make sense of teh situation., the group will then be caught in three-way-battle - Shami vs. Demos' Demons vs. PCs - with the River Styx's "waterfall" providing a unique background .
Whereupon dungeon #149 should again link up....
I think players should get much more of an opportunity to "appeal" to the various lusts, profane passions, and hatreds that drive demons. They should, if they're crafty, try to come up with loopholes or things that are similar, things that they could use to barter the offered deals down to something more reasonable (but still dangerous to them). Given that Orcus has died at least once and Obox-Ob has rebuilt himself from an aspect (after he and all its other aspects were destroyed), they perhaps have unique weaknesses that could be noted by PCs and used as part of their negotiations. Clerics or Paladins who are inspired enough to first visit their own deity’s plane and ask for assistance should be given an audience of some sort... or a communing, a visitation by an aspect or a celestial representative, whatever serves best.
Laeknir, this is in response to the above and your idea about Ahazu. Would you consider a "wager" with Ahazu too much like a deal. It would definitely appeal to a demon, who in turn might try to rig the bet. "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" comes to mind where the young fiddle player bets his soul against a fiddle of gold that he can outplay the devil. Do you think this is too much like a "deal". It kind of is, but then again, it isn't. Your call.