People do not write books about them.Ever read The Cleric Quintet by R.A. Salvatore. It's five books about a cleric.
Right. Any good authors write about them? Everything I've read by Salvatore so far has been awful wastes of time.
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I really dont think R.A.S. is much of an author, I have read many of his books; like 10 or 15 and they are really poor, under developed things, much like the writing i would expect from a second or third year writing student. I get more out of the Sunday funnies; and really dont see what all you guys that love him so much see in his writing that blows yer dress up and makes you giggle.
I'm with you, brother. I haven't read the Cleric Quintet, but Cadderly is in one of the Drizzt books (forget which - anyway, he's suddenly this cleric with Greater Teleportation or something - does RAS know anything about the rules (though to be fair, this book almost certainly predated 3E)?) and the Hunter's Blade trilogy had the Bouldershoulder brothers (shudder - after reading the first instalment of that trilogy I vowed never to read another RAS book (and I have read a few in my time) and the "comical" dwarves were pivotal in that decision).
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Right. Any good authors write about them? Everything I've read by Salvatore so far has been awful wastes of time.
Novelistically, I can't really think of any outstanding examples. There are a few nasty drow priestesses in the War of the Spider Queen but they are really drow first and clerics second (and, of course, they can't cast spells for most of the series anyway). The cleric in the Year of Rogue Dragons series is OK, but doesn't really do much on the magical front. And there is/was a FR series called The Priests or something, but I have never read any of them. However, the "Core Beliefs" articles in Dragon are pretty good for ideas on how to play clerics, at least as exemplars of the faith(s).
I've had alot of people be ungratefull for a healer, in an instance where a group of six went in and five came out I was assalted with "Why the hell didn't you heal ME?!?! I'M twice as imprortant as him" that kind of thing happens more often than expected, and it's not fun.
"Eat brains"!
This is tied to the problem clerics have in my campaign. Ok, I may not be perfect (damn close though ;) ) but I'm pretty open about things in my game. I have a homebrew, so I am VERY familar with the world and how things fit in it. No character in my games starts off with a misconception of their characters place in the world and how they work. these are experienced and crafty players as well. That said, clerics are a last option for all my players over the years.
Clerics, especially at early levels become team medics. A good cleric, adventuring with friends or even allies will heal them. Many over the years and version have looked over the spells and 99% come to the comclusion that saving them for healing is the best and most effective route. This tends to lead them to be second tier fighters who fall back after a round or two to heal the party. It's not fun to be reduced to a healing wand.
Some good roleplaying can compensate for this. Stop healing those whiners or play a tactician who commands the battle field and heals as needed to reinforce positions. But sometimes that doesn't work well with some characters. And once again it leads to the other complaint of "Now you're being forced to play a particular way."
As I've said before, this is something constant since way back in 2nd ed. Many different players and groups throughout the years. Add in that they only get what they start with (ability wise that is) as they progress.
With all that, my next character will be a cleric most likely. I love the practical spells and don't need the limelight in the party. That and I know nobody else will play one. ;) Does anyone remember the names of the divine feats that allow metamagic for turn attempts?
Instance, tell the complainers to take it up with your character's diety.
I played a cleric for a longish term campaign (3-12th levels over 8-9 months), mostly because most other bases had been covered. I found that if I wanted to do something cool, I had to nove in the first 2-3 rounds, because after that, I was running around, trying to keep the rest of the party on thier feet after charging the enlarged, raging Ogre barbarian. Mass heal spells were a favorite, as was the reach spell feat, but it always came down to "can you hook a brother up?"
IMO, the cleric is always hobbled by the "healer" archetype. I have even seen it in "evil" campaigns, where the cleric player realizes it is in his own charatcers best interests to heal the others to be meatshields. I rana drood in a one off last weekend, and being the olny divine caster, had to run around with the happy stick (Wand CMW) about 1/2 of the time. If you have more than one healing capable charatcer, this issue goes away and clerics become a lot of fun to play. But IME its not often that you do.
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You know, I think clerics became more popular in my campaigns when we started changing treasure division. We used to just try and divide stuff up equitably, and kept most loot. Then we switched to evaluating everything and dividing shares, and letting players buy items from their share (and selling everything else). Then we started adding an additional 'party share.'
The party share pays for general expenses; inns, food, hiring sages, bribes, tolls, what have you. And healing. All healing items are considered party treasure, and any healing expenses are paid for from party share. One of the first things that any party buys is a wand of CLW. In fact, we now will often chip in on this item if the party share is insufficient.
The original intent was that this way we could press on more frequently and have less need to go 'back to town,' but an important side effect is that the cleric can usually cast their spells for whatever, and they get to have a lot more fun.
My current campaign the party actually drew up a charter with all kinds of crazy regulations. At least once a session we get briefly derailed by a non-confidence vote and new election for the position of party Captain... but that's a different story.
Hey guys’n’gals, thanks for your replies. It's been interesting reading them.
It seems that the reason they’re not more popular is the following reasons:
* With all the various classes in print, players want to try something else.
* Players don’t want to waste actions casting healing spells (despite the overall benefit to the party)
* Players aren’t sure about the roleplaying aspects or think they’re boring or don’t want to be “mere” support characters (as they perceive the class).
* Players aren’t aware of just how effective and/or versatile the class can be.
No. This is completely wrong.
1. Other classes get more abilities, spread out over 20 levels. Clerics get some very good abilities and then nothing new. Many peope find this dull and spread out to PrCs to compensate.2. It's not that they don't want to waste time doing it. It's that they are forced to do so.
3. First part is off, but the second is spot on. Don't kid yourself, Cleric is designed to be a support class. they don't get the flashy spells, or the super big damage. They aren't, usually, the center or focus of the party either. Some people like to be the big dramatic focus, whether it's the decaptitating axe swinger or the fire ball slinger.
4. Yes they are incredibley versatile at high levels. But what about low levels? What about when you're the only healer in a group? If you're the sole source if healing around, you've got some tough choices. Do you buff or sit back and wait with heals?
So, I know many of my players complain that it's a dull class, doomed to no neat abilities after level 1, where you are railroaded into roleplaying a certain way or being a healing wand that is consistantly overlooked, but yet without him/her the whole group grinds to a halt.
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To all of you who enjoy playing Clerics and argue that they're a good class to play, take this as an open INVITE to any of my gaming groups!!
Nobody wants to play a Cleric here. We usually get a rogue with Use Magic Device and a Cure Wand (The Happy Stick), a Paladin that buffs his/her Turning ability, and/or a Druid that does lots of healing and/or trades the Wild Shape ability for the Turning ability.
As far as novels go, Finder's Bane is poorly written but does a great job explaining the relationship between a god and his clerics. I strongly recommend it for this reason.
The good thing about playing a Cleric is that you don't fret about which spells to prepare; only a few are worth preparing.
In the nebulous 4E I'd like to see the Cleric greatly redone (or eliminated as a class altogether). Make a Domain Spell list for each diety and allow a Cleric to ONLY use those spells. This will go a long way in DM's not "allowing" Clerics to cast certain spells or taking a Cleric's ability to get spells for a day. The class could be embellished by developing the Special abilities -- a Cleric gets something with a Domain, make those lists bigger.
-W. E. Ray
In the nebulous 4E I'd like to see the Cleric greatly redone (or eliminated as a class altogether). Make a Domain Spell list for each diety and allow a Cleric to ONLY use those spells. This will go a long way in DM's not "allowing" Clerics to cast certain spells or taking a Cleric's ability to get spells for a day. The class could be embellished by developing the Special abilities -- a Cleric gets something with a Domain, make those lists bigger.-W. E. Ray
Arcana Evolved has an interesting way of eliminating the cleric. Essentially there is only one kind of magic so if you cast spells you are a cleric by default. Its really not a bad solution.
Right. Any good authors write about them? Everything I've read by Salvatore so far has been awful wastes of time.
...well, there is this book called Bible...
Besides some of the more famous guys on that like Moses or Jesus (who were both central characters of their adventure parties) there are some other enjoyable character examples too. How about Ezekiel? Or Jonah, whose relationship with his God was rather interesting...or Solomon, progressing from Song of Songs to Proverbs to Ecclesiastes?As others said above, being a cleric is about dealing with other people, sometimes even more than bard. And while it does require the player to care about the role, it also requires the DM to do a bit more than "ok, pray your spells so we can get this adventure started".
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I'd like to add to the last poster's comment and turn the table around. The DM has a responsibility to give some of the spotlight to each player at one time or another, making them the star of the story for a little while, or at least the temporary MVP. A lot of DMs just don't know how to do this for a cleric. A rogue gets traps and locked doors, a fighter gets monsters to beat, an arcane caster overcomes enemy magics or other obstacles. What does that leave for the cleric? Usually, healing. It's important to know your player's cleric so you can give them the right challenges to overcome. Diplomacy is often the key skill to work into an event, and of course battling the undead. Based on Domains and specialties, a cleric can have a variety of other talents. If the DM isn't giving each class 15 minutes of fame, these abilities can go to waste and it can get a little dull for the player.
I'm only saying this is part of the problem, and certainly not at every gaming table.
...well, there is this book called Bible...
Huh, thats a cool viewpoint, thanks. Sampson as a cleric of Kord for example?
I've been surprised, watching my GM's two SCAP campaigns, at how much the healer role can vary from game to game even with the same scenarios.
In SCAP #1, the PC cleric almost never actually casts Cure spells, and in general there is little in-combat healing. His full memorized loadout is 4x CLW, and he channels negative energy so that's all he gets. Healing happens after a fight when happy sticks are fully adequate. Before combat, the cleric casts some support spells, particularly Heroes' Feast, Death Ward, Free Movement, True Seeing (he casts the latter on himself, which gives him another role to play--spotter of things that aren't as they should be), and Mass Bear's Endurance. In effect, Heroes' Feast and Mass Bear's Endurance are doing the healing for the party in advance, as both spells give extra HP. In combat, the cleric casts Silence, Flamestrike, Banishment, Dismissal, Spiritual Weapon, Sound Burst, Blade Barrier, Break Enchantment, Dispel Magic, etc. If he gets a good opportunity he uses his Death Touch. When he doesn't have a relevant spell he uses a Wand of Searing Light. After combat, he trots out things like Restoration and Remove Curse.
In SCAP #2, the party's strategy relies heavily on a couple of fighters. The party cleric has never gotten into buffing them, so they are low AC for their level and get hit a lot. The cleric therefore spends all combat, every combat, casting high-level Cure spells on the fighters to keep them up. When he doesn't have to do that, he melees. Without buff spells, he's not particularly good in melee. The player is bored silly. Without him the other PCs would be dead, but that's not the same as actually getting to do interesting things.
Part of the problem is that cleric #2 is really a Favored Soul and gets a sorcerer-like limited spell selection: it sounded like a good idea at the time, but too many of the clerical spells are hyperspecialized. He took a bunch of healing and didn't have slots enough left for an interesting variety of spells.
But I think the bigger difference is that party #1 offers an interesting role for the cleric and party #2 offers a role that, while essential to their combat style, is completely boring. I am the player of cleric #1 and quite happy, but wouldn't play #2.
If #2 were really a cleric instead of a Favored Soul, his player might be a lot happier if the fighters bought some more AC backing items and/or the cleric cast AC-backing or hp-backing spells on them before combat, and then the cleric got to either cast non-healing magic in combat, or buff himself and be a capable fighter. Being permanently subordinate to the fighters is a rather drab role. Given the Favored Soul restriction I'm not sure it could be fixed now. I also suspect the fighters' players would resist this idea. It will serve them right if they can't find anyone to play a cleric next game.
Mary
Clerics healing in the middle of battle? Bah! Unnecessary.
In my (admittedly junior) experience, most parties can actually get through most fights just fine, without need of a cleric. But, a strange thing happens when most people realize there's a walking band-aid (or what they percieve to be one) behind them: they get more reckless. They go ahead and try that strategy that would be too much of a gambit, if it wasn't for the presence of the priest. He'll bail me out, right?
The cleric player should make an announcement like this up front (unless he likes being a healbot): "Listen up! I am not a healbot. I will not be healing you unless there is an emergency, meaning when your ass falls to negative hp. Got it? Good. Now, I'll be up front with the fighter laying the smackdown on evil." (Who {the fighter}, incidentally, will appreciate the cleric being right next to him, since he's very likely to be the one needing the healing in those "Oh S%+$!" moments)
Clerics get a thing called spontaneous healing (assuming normal deity selection and not something relatively bizarre, like Erythnul), meaning that they need not waste their time preparing heal spells. If someone gets knocked down, they can run over and tend to them. If you're up and fighting, and above about 10-15% of your hp, don't bother the priest by whining for healing. It's rude and detracts from the cleric player's fun.
Clerical spells prepared should not be dictated by other players. Play the cleric how you like, and in the majority (not all, but the majority) of battles (presuming a game run using normal CR/EL practices), the party can make it through to the end of the fight, when the cleric can break out the so-called "Happy Stick" and tend to wounds, without blowing anymore spells.
As far as roleplaying, I agree that most people fail to take the proper level of interest in the game's various religions. A cleric can be so diverse and so interesting. Quite often, DMs and players alike are culprits for respectively not detailing the various faiths enough or not taking a large enough interest to make playing a cleric fun. I mean, if you're ever at a loss for something to say, you've can just drop a line about your deity that sounds like it applies to the situation at hand, and you're good!
I also don't get the argument that clerics get no special abilities outside of Turn Undead at 1st level.
Uhm... neither do sorcerers. Some people complain that sorcerers are weak, true (I am not one of them), but this generally comes from a percieved "lack of separation" from the wizard and spell progression/selection issues. Rarely is the lack of special abilities invoked as a reason to complain against sorcerers.
Yet, all they get is the much inferior familiar.
Oh, and what's that thing over on the very far right of the cleric's chart? Spell levels? Nine of them? Oh, my, how ho-hum and boring. Certainly nothing special or exciting or powerful about another spell level, no sir.
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WTF?!
Personally, I think clerics are great. They're some of the most fearsome NPCs the party will ever face, make instant friends for the PCs (so long as they're willing to cough up some healing), and are extremely versatile and gratifying to play. The only problem is the vast amount of myth and negative hype that surrounds them as being nothing but walking band-aids.
Right. Any good authors write about them? Everything I've read by Salvatore so far has been awful wastes of time....well, there is this book called Bible...
Besides some of the more famous guys on that like Moses or Jesus (who were both central characters of their adventure parties) there are some other enjoyable character examples too. How about Ezekiel? Or Jonah, whose relationship with his God was rather interesting...or Solomon, progressing from Song of Songs to Proverbs to Ecclesiastes?
I did not much care for that book. The author resorted to deux ex machina all over the place.
That question extends to similar classes as well, like druid, favored soul, spirit shamans, etc, but to a lesser extent.
For the op: what makes you think that clerics and the like aren't popular pc classes?
As ever,
ACE
Clerics healing in the middle of battle? Bah! Unnecessary.
In my (admittedly junior) experience, most parties can actually get through most fights just fine, without need of a cleric. But, a strange thing happens when most people realize there's a walking band-aid (or what they percieve to be one) behind them: they get more reckless. They go ahead and try that strategy that would be too much of a gambit, if it wasn't for the presence of the priest. He'll bail me out, right?
The cleric player should make an announcement like this up front (unless he likes being a healbot): "Listen up! I am not a healbot. I will not be healing you unless there is an emergency, meaning when your ass falls to negative hp. Got it? Good. Now, I'll be up front with the fighter laying the smackdown on evil." (Who {the fighter}, incidentally, will appreciate the cleric being right next to him, since he's very likely to be the one needing the healing in those "Oh s%@!!" moments)
Clerics get a thing called spontaneous healing (assuming normal deity selection and not something relatively bizarre, like Erythnul), meaning that they need not waste their time preparing heal spells. If someone gets knocked down, they can run over and tend to them. If you're up and fighting, and above about 10-15% of your hp, don't bother the priest by whining for healing. It's rude and detracts from the cleric player's fun.
The problem with this is that you end up with dead characters and usually ones that did not have to die.
When I review the characters that I have killed using hp damage the result is almost always due to the fact that the character had already lost a some hps when - out of the blue disaster struck. Usually they suffered a critical hit and, because they where already low in hps, the critical sent them straight to dead.
The obvious solution then is to avoid being low on hps. One essentially wants the cleric to keep your character as close to full hps as possible as much of the time as possible because if you have full hps you'll probably survive a critical hit, being the target of an unexpected spell or the sneak attack ambush no one rolled a high enough spot check to see coming.
I'd like to add to the last poster's comment and turn the table around. The DM has a responsibility to give some of the spotlight to each player at one time or another, making them the star of the story for a little while, or at least the temporary MVP. A lot of DMs just don't know how to do this for a cleric. A rogue gets traps and locked doors, a fighter gets monsters to beat, an arcane caster overcomes enemy magics or other obstacles. What does that leave for the cleric? Usually, healing. It's important to know your player's cleric so you can give them the right challenges to overcome. Diplomacy is often the key skill to work into an event, and of course battling the undead. Based on Domains and specialties, a cleric can have a variety of other talents. If the DM isn't giving each class 15 minutes of fame, these abilities can go to waste and it can get a little dull for the player.
I'm only saying this is part of the problem, and certainly not at every gaming table.
I have stated previously that I do this. The cleric in my current campaign is the only one who has the knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes. I do not use undead in the majority of my game, but have compensated the cleric for this (that was another thread). But his knowledge helps to focus and lead the party onward, as well as helps with his investigations. (For some background he's a Dwarf Cleric of Dumathion working for a Temple devoted to keeping secrets and knowledge in a hidden library.) With all of his knowledge skills he constantly shines.
The problem is he's a Good Cleric. And his friends are his partners. At first level, his spell options are limited by number of spells and their effectiveness. After several experiments in combat he's come to the conclusion that no buff or damage spell for him is worth the trade out for heal spells for after combat. He is the lone cleric, backed up by a very rookie player and her Druid. The rest of the party consists of 2 fighters, 1 ranger and a rogue.
You can't compare Clerics with Sorcs because of the spells either. That is plain silly. Look at the differences between cleric and sorc/wiz spells. The types of spells do not match up for a comparison like this. And the majority of the divine feats are just... Well, disappointing to say the least.
I know how powerful the cleric CAN BE. the problem my players have is GETTING THERE. At lower levels they are restrained and limited by party needs and low ability resources in what they can do. Because of the design of clerics they have to be MORE responsible than other classes, making them harder and often more aggravating to play.
Once again, this is what I've seen in my groups for well over 20 years now. And these are groups from over 3 states and all age groups.
Huh, thats a cool viewpoint, thanks. Sampson as a cleric of Kord for example?
...well, there is this book called Bible...
Definitely. While many of the characters could be considered to be also of different professions (like Samson would work as fighter or barbarian) the book concentrates a lot on their relationship to God, and thus they can be used as a cleric concept.
I am rather fond of Jonah...man gets a mission from God, and while claiming he is faithful servant of God he whines and moans about the mission all the time and gives really half-assed attempt on the unpleasant mission (I think the original text managed to pack his sermon in Niniveh to four words). LN selfish whiner cleric of Pelor or Hieroneous...
I did not much care for that book. The author resorted to deux ex machina all over the place.
Ha :D Well played sir!!
At Maggie- I've been to Ninevah, its no wonder Jonah didn't want to go :) (Its in Iraq)
Great ideas though. You could probably look up xian martyrs and find all sorts of cool ideas for a cleric or pally. I'm not too familiar with Hinduism, but they have to have scads of cool stories about their priestly catse as well.
People do not write books about them.Ever read The Cleric Quintet by R.A. Salvatore. It's five books about a cleric.
I hadn't... Or any of the other cleric books mentioned in this thread.
DM / Cleric Player represent. :P
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Vatnisse- the all-cleric campaign you talked about sounds great. Care to tell us more how it went?
I'd say it went great - it was a slightly tweaked version of Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil (I added a bunch of stuff, like an 3.0 update of the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, so the PCs were 2-3 levels higher at the end than in the published module) with five players, all of whom had independently decided to play a cleric of Hextor. Two of them ended up with cohorts (one lock-opening rogue, one artillery-type sorcerer), but they would have been OK without them, too. They were tough enough that they didn't need fighters, cast lots of spells and, crucially, played smart and used sound tactics. In the end, we finished the adventure with only two character deaths, and they were fixed through Raise dead. It also gave the PCs a strong cohesive story, while keeping the party dynamics rather interesting (the characters were, to put it mildly, not particularly good friends). All in all, it worked out very well, and I would recommend giving it a shot to most people.
I statted out the Ranger/Cleric. Here please remember that this is a pretty highpowered campaign. Altho, I must admit to being a bit of a power gamer. I guess I just played Rifts for too long.
How'd you come up with those stats? You're at least a +1 LA just for that :)
@ G- Just play an evil priest :) Or go with the Friar Tuck model :)
How'd you come up with those stats? You're at least a +1 LA just for that :)
@ G- Just play an evil priest :) Or go with the Friar Tuck model :)
Oh, earlier in this thread I mentioned we used 2 floating die. For some reason that option never appeared in the discussion of die rolling vs point buy...
... Diplomacy is often the key skill to work into an event, and of course battling the undead. ...
This can be kind of boring too. I hold up my Shiny symbol and scare the undead. I continue to hold up my shiny symbol. I will polish my shiny symbol while holding it up. I continue...
One problem we had with playing clerics was related to the general stigma of D&D in the 80's. "You what?!? You worship a false god?" 'no my character..." "you claim to raise dead, heal the sick, and work other miracles? You are pretending to be a false god!" It was just easier to say I play an axe wielding barbarian (do not ask me why was this a safer statement. :)
Granted this was a very small reason. It mostly just sucked to be relegated to patching up other people's characters. The last person in always got 'stuck' with the cleric and blind generation became the rule. It is interesting to note in other systems-sans healer characters, that we all got to play what we wanted and no one died all that often.
That being said I have made a point to play a few clerics in the new (3.5) system and have found the domains to provide an excellent opportunity for fun. I too had a 'fire' cleric, and also 'dragon' cleric and a 'magic' cleric (with craft wand :) and we have a 'water and storm' cleric in the STAP.
I highly recommend playing the domains up: me: "my hand bursts into flame and I place it on your chest;" wounded fighter: "you what?!? I try to dodge" me: "relax its a clw" the DM: too late he made his will save and resists the spell;" wounded fighter "what? no! aww [expletive];" me: "tee hee;" wounded fighter: "grrrr I knife the cleric; me: "arrrggghhh..." O:)
I statted out the Ranger/Cleric. Here please remember that this is a pretty highpowered campaign. Altho, I must admit to being a bit of a power gamer. I guess I just played Rifts for too long.
Cool.
I think you have a point about them being overlooked.
In four years of D&D, I've never once played a cleric. I should really play one next time I'm a PC, cuz I'm usually bored in a core-only game because I've played almost every core class.
After getting to NPC a cleric in the AoW AP, I've come to love them. Though she started out as nothing more than a glorified band-aid, one I made years ago as a last-ditch NPC (with her run-of-the-mill feat Improved Initiative, no less--great feat, BTW), she gradually fleshed out into an integral part of the overall theme of the campaign.
In truth, she morphed into an undead-killing positive damage/Divine Metamagic Quicken kind of character, but was a thrill to explore as a character I'd never tried before. As a cleric of Fharlaghn, she gave my players a sense of identity regarding this relatively ambiguous deity, within the context of the campaign.
I'm eager to play clerics in other campaigns, as they are, along with fighters, potentially the most diverse class available. Cleric of Kord is next on my wish-list of characters.