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In the last Pathfinder Chat Summary, it was mentioned that Pathfinder Orcs are still in need of fresh paint.
I've been thinking about it a bit.
Alright, first of all, there are two half-human races in the core races; half-orcs and half-elves. Let's use that as a starting point. I'd like to see a better justification for these half-races, and personally, I'd like to limit half-races that are not specifically created by some arcane or divine effect. I've always liked the idea that elves are either feytouched mortals or fey that gave up the fairylands for the mortal world.
I don't know how much elves have been developed, but bear with me.
So Orcs are the original evil masters of the underdark. They made war on the surface world eons ago, taking slaves and building an empire based on might.
The dwarves and elves of the world united and fought back, eventually turning the tide and pushing into the underdark themselves. Many of the elves and dwarves became corrupted. Seeking to destroy the orcs, they became what they hated. Likewise, many of the slaves captured by the orcs became more like their masters. Thus were born the drow, the duergar, and the derro. The elves realized that they could not defeat the orcs without destrying themselves, so they tried something different.
The Elves captured hundreds of orcs and began working to change them. Careful breeding programs, and magical modifications were enacted to create a more elf-like orc. And thus was born a new race. Humans.
Meanwhile, the dwarves had changed to a defensive strategy. They built fortresses at many important entrances to the underdark and became more and more insular.
Humans still clung to the fierce independance inherited from their orc ancestors and won their freedom from the Elves, who declared the experiment a failure. Humans spread accross the land and became a buffer between elven lands and the orcs and dwarves.
In the underdark, the orcs grew more complacent and dependant on their slaves. When the slaves organized a rebellion, their greatest weapon was that the orcs could no longer do the basic tasks needed for survival. The great orc households had more slaves than orcs. Between being betrayed by their trusted 'servants' and suddenly having no way to get food or other basic neccessities the orcs were undone. The empire was fractured, and only small tribes of orcs survived by raiding their enemies for supplies. some of them manged to escape to the surface, where they found a new people raid; their distant cousins, the humans. Human style agricultural communities out in the open were an easy target, and eventually the orcs carved a new niche for themselves, living in caves and raiding the surface by night.
I'm sure that some of this already incompatible with the setting, but I'm sure it could be adapted. I mostly just like the idea that humans are descendants of orcs...
Alright, first of all, there are two half-human races in the core races; half-orcs and half-elves. Let's use that as a starting point. I'd like to see a better justification for these half-races, and personally, I'd like to limit half-races that are not specifically created by some arcane or divine effect.
I don't want to hijack the thread, but this half-race discussion could be interesting. Perhaps you should start another thread on it.
Do you think your orc kingdom(s), built largely on slavery, would have been able to survive very long in the underdark? It's a very unforgiving place, where any weakness is quickly exploited.
The humans as cousins of orcs is funny. Might be fun to play with, though it would mean that humans were, in some way, inherently evil. I'm sure this would please some people, and offend some others, but it's an interesting take.
What motivates your orcs? As a species, are they fixated on anything?
Any thoughts on cultural additions that, while mostly fluff, would help make your orcs new and exciting to play with?
I guess I will mention two things:
1) I really do not like 'half-races' . . .they don't make much sense, but they are core so what ya gonna do?
2)As for orcs, I have always approached them as shamanistic or almost Native American in culture, albeit with a slightly savage and evil twist so they jibe in some ways with the MM and players expectations. I mean they are brutal savages who live amongst the wilderness (not saying Native Americans are) and, to me, it seems easiest to correlate that to some kind of Apache, Iroqouis mindset -- deep respect for the land and its gifts, unrelenting attackers of those who encroach upon their territory.
1) I really do not like 'half-races' . . .they don't make much sense, but they are core so what ya gonna do?
Make 'em better. Just because they are core is no reason not to make them unique, flavorful and interesting to RP.
Yes, Scribe, please, start up a thread on the half-races. It's an interesting topic to discuss.
As far as orcs, they certainly need more oomph than the "pillaging pig men from the peaks" that they're usually painted with. I've painted them in the "lost civilization that came to an end when they got better at stonemasonry than the dwarves." Yes, in Forgotten Realms. :P
Just something I want to point out,
An old computer roleplaying game Arcanum (Well, actually in just the manual AFAIK), implied both orcs and elves were acually evolutionary offshoots of Humanity. Part of his theory was based on the fact orcs and elves could interbreed with humans but not each other proved that humans were a genetic link between the two.
I know this doesn't really contribute directly to your thread but I thought you might find it interesting.
In reply to Lilith, that is what I do - I tinker with them to make them more palatable.
As far as orcs, they certainly need more oomph than the "pillaging pig men from the peaks" that they're usually painted with. I've painted them in the "lost civilization that came to an end when they got better at stonemasonry than the dwarves." Yes, in Forgotten Realms. :P
Of course, in the Realms a large number of orcs came into Faerun by way of a portal to a world completely ruled by orcs during the Orcgate Wars in the Old Empires, and those orcs were indeed quite a bit more advanced they they are at this point in time. Grummsh even managed to kill Ra (or at least his FR incarnation).
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I really do not like 'half-races' . . .they don't make much sense, but they are core so what ya gonna do?
Nah... Just drop them completely. Just because they are "core" does not mean that they must be used. Cut out half-elves and half-orcs, tweak the flavout text of NPCs of those races a bit and you're all set for a campaign free of annoying half-somethings.
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I really do not like 'half-races' . . .they don't make much sense, but they are core so what ya gonna do?Nah... Just drop them completely. Just because they are "core" does not mean that they must be used. Cut out half-elves and half-orcs, tweak the flavout text of NPCs of those races a bit and you're all set for a campaign free of annoying half-somethings.
Do you really think this is likely in Pathfinder? Or desirable? I think it's prety clear that Paizo is trying to make a world w that includes everything from the core SRD and makes it more fun and interesting.
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Do you think your orc kingdom(s), built largely on slavery, would have been able to survive very long in the underdark? It's a very unforgiving place, where any weakness is quickly exploited.
Well, I find it hard to believe realistically that any civilization could survive in the underdark. But we have several, and many of them have traditionally been slave based. This is clearly an area to be fleshed out in a "Let's make the Pathfinder Underdark beleiveable, regardless of what it's called" thread.
The humans as cousins of orcs is funny. Might be fun to play with, though it would mean that humans were, in some way, inherently evil. I'm sure this would please some people, and offend some others, but it's an interesting take.
Are orcs inherently evil? I never thought so. Mind you, many people belive that humans are. I had actually been thinking that the underdark could in and of itself have some kind of corrupting influence though, that made the orcs evil in the first place, and sped the process of corrupting their enemies. But another part of me likes the idea that the corruption was by free will...
What motivates your orcs? As a species, are they fixated on anything?
I was thinking that they have a natural tendency towards a structured dominance competition. like chickens' pecking order, or dogs and their relatives. They are obsessed with knowing their place, and trying to assert their dominance over anyone that they can.
Hmmm... new thought. Give them a strong affinity for dogs; instant culture clash with goblins.
Any thoughts on cultural additions that, while mostly fluff, would help make your orcs new and exciting to play with?
I've had a few ideas floating around, but I'm still thinking about it. I was thinking it might be cool to base them on celtic warrior culture, bare chested with plaid pants and torcs and spikey hair, but I'm not sure how that fits with the rest of my concept. I think Eberron did a neat job with the shamanistic culture, but that's one reason why I'd like something different here.
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Do you really think this is likely in Pathfinder? Or desirable? I think it's prety clear that Paizo is trying to make a world w that includes everything from the core SRD and makes it more fun and interesting.I really do not like 'half-races' . . .they don't make much sense, but they are core so what ya gonna do?Nah... Just drop them completely. Just because they are "core" does not mean that they must be used. Cut out half-elves and half-orcs, tweak the flavout text of NPCs of those races a bit and you're all set for a campaign free of annoying half-somethings.
Probably not likely. But that doesn't mean that you have to include half-anythings if you don't like them. And, if you don't care for cross-species interbreeding, why would dropping them be undesirable? After all, even though Paizo provides the world outline, what happens in it is up to you.
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Probably not likely. But that doesn't mean that you have to include half-anythings if you don't like them. And, if you don't care for cross-species interbreeding, why would dropping them be undesirable? After all, even though Paizo provides the world outline, what happens in it is up to you.
True, but Paizo has asked for our input, and I'm trying to give it to them within the parameters of what I already know they are doing.
And I want to write more stuff for Paizo, and it will be more fun to do so if the world is something I like and feel inspired by. And anything that I write for them will have to use their setting as written.
And just to clarify, the reason I don't like half-races is because they don't usually make sense, which is to say that they are not well explained. If we fix that, then I'll be happy, and in line with the setting.
That said, more power to anyone who just drops them (or guns, or whatever) from their home game if they don't like them.
Are orcs inherently evil? I never thought so.
You know, this same question could have been asked of Goblins. And I think everyone has generally accepted the current Pathfinder portrayal of Goblins as quite inherently evil.
So, yes. I believe Orcs should be inherently evil as well. Or at least, just as much as Goblins are in Pathfinder's world.
Hmmm... new thought. Give them a strong affinity for dogs; instant culture clash with goblins.
If Kobolds are going to get Slurks. And Goblins have Worgs. What then for the Orc cavalry? The Lord of the Rings would have us believe that both Orcs and Goblins ride wolves. So, worgs could come into play. But how about something different? Slurks were new for Kobolds. Is there some new Varisian creature usable by Orcs? A brutish war-boar, perhaps? Or is that taking the "pig" metaphor too far? A warthog, maybe?
The humans as cousins of orcs is funny.
I'd prefer not to associate them genetically with anyone else. Let Orcs stand on their own. After all, Gruumsh is portrayed as quite Orc-centric and responsible for the creation of his people as something apart from the other races. So, give them their own identity, please.
Do you think your orc kingdom(s), built largely on slavery, would have been able to survive very long in the underdark? It's a very unforgiving place, where any weakness is quickly exploited.
I'd nix the underdark connection, too. Orcs may hate the sunlight, but they love harrassing and punishing the surface world. So, although they live underground, they still stick close to those cave entrances.
What motivates your orcs? As a species, are they fixated on anything?
Combat. Strength of arms. Sowing the seeds of chaos and ruin upon those that are weaker, even within their own ranks. Thus, the infighting between different clans of orcs. Remember, they're predominantly chaotic evil. So we're not talking about a great organized society of villainous creatures with some grand or once noble culture. At best, I'd view them as barbaric. Hence, an orc horde is essentially a barbarian horde of a different species (and an even more violent one) than humans.
I was thinking that they have a natural tendency towards a structured dominance competition. like chickens' pecking order, or dogs and their relatives. They are obsessed with knowing their place, and trying to assert their dominance over anyone that they can.
No...I think you're describing Hobgoblins if you go that route. Again, with Orcs usually being chaotic evil, you're going to see something more akin to the Drow...only less sophisticated and much more brutally barbaric. A pecking order within their individual clan might be possible (similar to the way Drow houses are characterized), but I believe there would be just as much infighting and scrambling to takeover leadership of the clan among its members (again, not all that different from Drow assassinating their own kinfolk...only Orcs aren't nearly that "delicate" about it).
Just my two-cents so far,
--Neil
The Elves captured hundreds of orcs and began working to change them. Careful breeding programs, and magical modifications were enacted to create a more elf-like orc. And thus was born a new race. Humans.
I had to go pour myself another cup of juice so I’d have something to spit out when I read this. You really want to make elves the progenitors of humanity?
Anyhoo, here’s an alternative idea we can toss around. What if we remove the biological element of the human/orc crossbreeding and make it a cultural influence? While most orcs are savage tribesmen roaming the badlands, there are orc tribes who, through interaction with humans, have become “soft orcs”, more civilized than the savage orcs (but still pretty savage when it comes down to it.) Over time, they could’ve moved to the surface or whatever, lost their sensitivity to light but suffered a weakening of their darkvision. In general, the softening of their orcish traits has lead to them being called “half-orcs” by both humans and orcs.
Just to toss out an idea, the backstory could be based on a human culture (or elvish or halfling or flumph or whatever) being beset by savage orc tribes. The chaotic nature of the orcs, though, allowed the humans (or elves or flumphs) to pay off some of the tribes to attack the other ones in much the same way the Romans hired barbarian German mercenaries to fight the Gauls (or…hired Gauls to fight the Germans…I don’t remember which). Through interaction with the human nation, these orc tribes grew “soft”, becoming slightly more civilized, physically weaker, but showing more intelligence. These are the “half-orc” tribes we know today.
As much as I’m a fan of keeping the SRD crunch to form the basis of the fluff, the number of orcs who have mated with humans to create an established race of half-orcs really stretches credulity.
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Are orcs inherently evil? I never thought so.You know, this same question could have been asked of Goblins. And I think everyone has generally accepted the current Pathfinder portrayal of Goblins as quite inherently evil.
So, yes. I believe Orcs should be inherently evil as well. Or at least, just as much as Goblins are in Pathfinder's world.
I don't recall seeing a general acceptance that goblins are inherently evil. Certainly they seem more culturally inclined that way, but I think perhaps we have a different notion of 'inherent.' To me, demons are inherently evil. Goblins are culturally evil. Same as what I said before. I like evil among mortal races to be by choice, usually.
I was thinking that they have a natural tendency towards a structured dominance competition. like chickens' pecking order, or dogs and their relatives. They are obsessed with knowing their place, and trying to assert their dominance over anyone that they can.
No...I think you're describing Hobgoblins if you go that route.
I disagree. I think hobgoblins have a similar idea, but I've always seen hobgoblins as having a 'cogs in the machine' structure rather than a 'struggling for dominance' structure. Hobgoblins like to follow orders. Orcs all want to be top dog. All IMO of course.
I'm in the opposite camp of the "I hate half-races" people; in my homebrew campaign there are half-dwarves, half-hobgoblins, even a half-gnome once. All of them get treated pretty rudely. We houseruled that it was a human racial trait, so there are no half-orc/half-goblin hybrids or whatever.
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The Elves captured hundreds of orcs and began working to change them. Careful breeding programs, and magical modifications were enacted to create a more elf-like orc. And thus was born a new race. Humans.I had to go pour myself another cup of juice so I’d have something to spit out when I read this. You really want to make elves the progenitors of humanity?
I'd be interested to know why this is such a terrible idea. I'm not opposed to hearing criticism or of accepting a better idea, but I'm not sure how this comment is constructive.
Your idea later posted is reasonable, and I share your sentiments about the sheer number of hybrids being ridiculous.
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As much as I’m a fan of keeping the SRD crunch to form the basis of the fluff, the number of orcs who have mated with humans to create an established race of half-orcs really stretches credulity.
I totally agree. Who really wants to do it with an orc?
Orc women? Not even on an adventurer's worst day. Not even while marooned on a desert island. Not even...well, you get the idea.
Orc men? Not a whole lot of women clamoring to get themselves a piece of the piggy pig.
Thus, nearly all half-orcs must be the product of rape and pillage. It is entirely unlikely that they would be created and would survive in great enough numbers to create an "established" race. At best, half-orcs should be exceedingly rare. I've often felt that they were overused and popped up far more often than the likelihood of their creation would allow.
Half-elves I can understand. Having a kid with slightly pointy ears is a lot more palatable than churning out lil' bacon babies.
I'd be interested to know why this is such a terrible idea. I'm not opposed to hearing criticism or of accepting a better idea, but I'm not sure how this comment is constructive.
I fear your idea here came on the tail of a discussion on another thread about elves and how they're traditionally shown as being perfect and uber. The thought there was that people don't actually like elves when they're shown to be better than all of humanity, and the thought that elves are actually responsible for creating humanity seems counter to the thoughts presented there.
The spittake comment was just me trying to be light about my reaction to your statement rather than just coming out and saying "What?!? Are you MAD!?"
Anyhoo, the idea that half-orcs are the result of experimental breeding isn't objectionable. In fact, Paizo's own Spelljammer mini-game posited that half-orcs were created by Mind Flayers trying to create a perfect servitor race that combined the best aspects of orc and human (or dwarf, I don't recall exactly).
I totally agree. Who really wants to do it with an orc?
::Raises Hand::
Orc women? Not even on an adventurer's worst day. Not even while marooned on a desert island. Not even...well, you get the idea.
Ah well . . . more for me.
Hmm, maybe I've said too much.
But seriously, if I were in a DnD setting, and the opportunity arose . . . I'd see nothing wrong with it.
Thou shalt not boink that which goes oink.
Oh, that's funny. :D
I'll have to tell that to my wife who played a half-orc druidess and had an orc boyfriend in a campaign we played in a few years ago.
I guess I will mention two things:
1) I really do not like 'half-races' . . .they don't make much sense, but they are core so what ya gonna do?
2)As for orcs, I have always approached them as shamanistic or almost Native American in culture, albeit with a slightly savage and evil twist so they jibe in some ways with the MM and players expectations. I mean they are brutal savages who live amongst the wilderness (not saying Native Americans are) and, to me, it seems easiest to correlate that to some kind of Apache, Iroqouis mindset -- deep respect for the land and its gifts, unrelenting attackers of those who encroach upon their territory.
I agree with #2 above, that is pretty much how I envision them. However, I feel that half races can and do exist, particularly when sitations where rapes could be concerned. How better to desecrate the humans / orcs than to have sexual relations with their mates, despoiling them. Seems like a rather realistic thing to me (it happens, even today)
I also like the idea presented by Tolkien, where a human and a elf could get together but only at the cost of their immortality. It's a fantasy game, make it happen if you want.
Attempt two at posting...
Just to throw in my own thoughts, I think it would be interesting to play with peoples' perceptions. One of the themes in many settings is that humans are the young, vibrant race who, thanks to their adaptability and short generations, have been able to spread to all the corners of the globe, often displacing older races in the process.
What if the orcs are the young race, still relatively early on in their history, and believing that their destiny is to shove aside the older, weaker races and take their place in the sun?
Naturally, said other races disagree, being less than willing to surrender their lands to such barbarians. But it has happened elsewhere, and the occasional orc tribe found in Varisia may simply be a harbinger of things to come in later decades. Or they may be an anomaly, confined to the badlands by the other races who stubbornly cling to their ancestral lands. For now...
As a young race, the orcs will no doubt adopt traits from older cultures as they see fit, no doubt focusing on weapons and armour, and ignoring decadent 'civilised' ideas like 'defending the weak', 'taxes', or 'the needs of the many'. All of which seems to point towards your fairly stereotypical culture of orc barbarians. But what about those little cultural traits that set an interpretation of orcs apart?
I think that the vikings are among the best sources of inspiration here. Very much a warrior culture, heavily into raiding, and with a distinct focus on individual prowess in a fight, as opposed to coordinated tactics. They even worshipped a one-eyed god with a fondness for spears. A longship full of orcs would certainly be cause for concern in any town. And looking at the map, there are few places they couldn't threaten if the river approaches aren't adequately guarded.
Anyhow, enough rambling for the time being.
Hmmm... new thought. Give them a strong affinity for dogs; instant culture clash with goblins.If Kobolds are going to get Slurks. And Goblins have Worgs. What then for the Orc cavalry? The Lord of the Rings would have us believe that both Orcs and Goblins ride wolves. So, worgs could come into play. But how about something different? Slurks were new for Kobolds. Is there some new Varisian creature usable by Orcs? A brutish war-boar, perhaps? Or is that taking the "pig" metaphor too far? A warthog, maybe?
war-boar:
http://img.breitbart.com/images/2007/5/25/D8PBKB5G0/D8PBKB5G0_preview.jpg
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I was thinking about orcs and boars and pig faces.
And I came up with a clan of orcs who hunt boars and have an affinity/association with said boars. Perhaps even capture and train them, or use dire boars dor mounts.
And of course, the make ceremonial headresses and decorate their helmets with boar heads, leading to the pig-faced orc myth.
I was thinking about orcs and boars and pig faces.
And I came up with a clan of orcs who hunt boars and have an affinity/association with said boars. Perhaps even capture and train them, or use dire boars dor mounts.
And of course, the make ceremonial headresses and decorate their helmets with boar heads, leading to the pig-faced orc myth.
Did you copy/paste the link to see that picture?
The pig-faced orc myth had to do with their recessed nose and heavy brow.
The combination, on a dark night, lit only by the trembling hand of a fleeing commoner looking over her shoulder...
...or worse...
...pushing her down and sweating on her...
...will be interpreted quite swinish. There's no need for such a story for that myth.
There's also no reason to *not* write that story.
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Did you copy/paste the link to see that picture?
The pig-faced orc myth had to do with their recessed nose and heavy brow.
The combination, on a dark night, lit only by the trembling hand of a fleeing commoner looking over her shoulder...
...or worse...
...pushing her down and sweating on her...
...will be interpreted quite swinish. There's no need for such a story for that myth.
There's also no reason to *not* write that story.
Do you mean the link to the big wild boar? I've seen that pic and read the story posted on several other threads.
As for the rest, I'm not sure what you're saying. Are these two parts of your response connected to each other?
In 1e Orcs were often depicted as ahaving actual pig heads. My idea of the boar head helmats/masks was in homage to this old image. Kind of connecting the old orc image with the new orc image.
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How about orcs are those humans who gave in to the depredations of the Runelords body and soul and were changed irrevocavely. Those human followers of the Runelord of Wrath were gifted with a depthless anger and warlike tendancies. Envy orcs were gifted with an an insatiable desire to raid and take for themselves the riches of others. Gluttony Orcs could hunger for the flesh of other living creatures. Pride Orcs could be the royal order of Orcdom who lord their superiority over all over Orcs and by doing so bring the tribes of Orcs into endless conflict.
Since the fall of the Runelord the Orcs will have been assailed on all sides and have grouped together for safety in the process. Inevitably the tribes of orcs have interbreed and formed the generic orc who exhibit most of the tendancies of the Sin Orcs.
Of course humans will deny all connections to the orc's human descent and perhaps the elves feel some guilt that perhaps they could have prevented the humans from following the path that led to their dark evolution. Perhaps even the elves sacrificed the human followers as a bargain to keep the Runelords from taking their own children. And this perhaps is their greatest shame.
SW
Just to toss out an idea, the backstory could be based on a human culture (or elvish or halfling or flumph or whatever) being beset by savage orc tribes. The chaotic nature of the orcs, though, allowed the humans (or elves or flumphs) to pay off some of the tribes to attack the other ones in much the same way the Romans hired barbarian German mercenaries to fight the Gauls (or…hired Gauls to fight the Germans…I don’t remember which). Through interaction with the human nation, these orc tribes grew “soft”, becoming slightly more civilized, physically weaker, but showing more intelligence. These are the “half-orc” tribes we know today.
As much as I’m a fan of keeping the SRD crunch to form the basis of the fluff, the number of orcs who have mated with humans to create an established race of half-orcs really stretches credulity.
This reminds me vaguely of what I'm doing concerning the gameworld in which I'm running one of the Dungeon Adventure Paths. Sidestepping spoilers as much as I can, the Adventure Path in question has a lot of half-orcs. A whole lot of them. Enough that I can't help thinking there's gotta be some kind of breeding facility somewhere cranking them out.
I decided that it'd be easier on my suspension of disbelief to just say, "You know what? In my world, there's no such thing as half-orcs. Instead, there are civilized orcs. They use the exact same stats as half orcs, but are their own race. At some point in the distant past, orcs and the civilized races reached an accord, and orcs gradually became civilized and accepted in the nations of the world. Some vicious mercenary bands and clans (often the same thing) do cling to their old, violent ways, and can be quite dangerous just because of the fact they can skulk into towns & walk down the street masquerading as their 'soft' cousins."
Is there some new Varisian creature usable by Orcs? A brutish war-boar, perhaps? Or is that taking the "pig" metaphor too far? A warthog, maybe?
Somehow, I cannot help be reminded of the orc-like Moblins in Legend of Zelda, Twilight Princess, riding their massive war-boar mounts.
Pretty darn effective as an intimidating and gripping scenario, actually.
Wish I had a good link (pun not intended) to show for it, because I thought it came across rather well.
What motivates your orcs? As a species, are they fixated on anything?I was thinking that they have a natural tendency towards a structured dominance competition. like chickens' pecking order, or dogs and their relatives. They are obsessed with knowing their place, and trying to assert their dominance over anyone that they can.
Hmmm... new thought. Give them a strong affinity for dogs; instant culture clash with goblins.
Before you mentioned dogs, the natural thing that popped into my head was wolves. I know orcs are traditionally matched with worgs, but, going with the also-mentioned boar idea, you could maybe make a tribal system, with different groups associated with different animals.
I really, really like the concept of using real-world, known animals (even if they're dire versions) like boars over things like worgs. It makes them almost more feral, and goes along with the idea of their corruption being a natural choice, a wong turn in nature.
Any thoughts on cultural additions that, while mostly fluff, would help make your orcs new and exciting to play with?I've had a few ideas floating around, but I'm still thinking about it. I was thinking it might be cool to base them on celtic warrior culture, bare chested with plaid pants and torcs and spikey hair, but I'm not sure how that fits with the rest of my...
This is really cool too. If you like the tribe idea, you could modify each group to sort of fit the animal. The boar group could be Celtic, maybe the wolf group with sort of a twisted Roman feel, seemingly structured and organized but more with the alpha wolf, get-ahead mindset.
Just dropping in to agree . . . dire boars + orcs = just makes sense.
Just dropping in to agree . . . dire boars + orcs = just makes sense.
And so Grimgor's Waaaagh spills over onto the Paizo community.
I think its so cool that all the message-board writers here are looking for fun and creative ways to reinvent Orcs in Pathfinder. So far, we've seen a lot of attention to their origins. I have my own ideas (see below) but I was thinking...
Since everybody loves what Paizo has done for Goblins (new look, weapons, relations with animals and even their own songs!) what do you think we could do for Orcs?
We can beg for the new look to come from some amazing artist like Wayne Reynolds - and personally I'm all for a feathered Native American, boar-headdress and body-paint, stolen arms-and-armor kind of look.
And the relationship to various savage mounts is a great idea!
Peculiar weapons seems to have been already introduced in the PHB...
So what about the nastiness particular to Orcs? Their 'song' if you will. The clever, unique Pathfinder hook? What would players find new and fun in combating Orcs...
I would suggest a penchant for slave-gathering, myself. Great, sudden raids that burn villages to the ground. Impromptu slave-markets held in the ashes of a town before the forced march back to dark and desperate caves. Auctions complete with manacles and branding irons to mark each warlords' new 'property' with an Orc glyph on the forehead of hapless villagers.
Picture it ... wardrums in the night. The stamp of boar-hooves. Burnt hamlets and missing farmers. Rescue missions. The chance for PCs to be captured instead of killed, to prison-break and fight again -but branded as the former property of an Orc warrior. Hostages, human-shields and tough-guy PC origins as orphaned slaves to Orcdom.
This isn't exactly an original idea - so bring on some new ones!
As for the Half-Orc, Half-Elf discussion - in my campaign, space-faring humans from a far-reaching galactic empire created a research facility on a distant planet to experiment on 'psychic powers' and 'better soldiers', eventually breeding two subspecies. You guessed it - magic-wielding Elves and club-wielding Orcs. After the fall of the Empire due to civil war, Humans wouldn't again crash on the planet until Orcs and Elves had their millennia of conflict. The lengths we will go to explain 'half-races' is 'half the fun!'
Cheers
Have orcs be handsome and give them a streak of cruelty. It is their behaviour that sets them apart. They could fit in with the other races, they just see them as weak.
Some humans, especially the younger rebels could idealise the orc supermen, in the mode of the fetish for orientalism in the C18th
An orc magocracy run by orc sorcerors?
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The problem with half-races, as I see it, is the "half". Typically they are seen as the progeny of two wholes. I prefer to look at them as a separate race.
Tolkien had the Dunedain, which have very "Half-Elf" feel to them (they have long lives, respect for nature, and great relationship with elves). I prefer the half-races to be characterized as a true breeding, separate race.
A very basic, and cliched, lore would be to make the elves the teachers of a tribe of men (dunedain) who learn the secrets of magic and how to live with nature rather than opposed to it. Over time, this tribe grew prosperous and became the "half-elf" we know and love. Another tribe of men intermingled with tribes of Orcs in those early days and became the "half-orc" who dwell along the cliffs to the cinderlands and whose capital is the great fortress of Kaer Maga.
etc. etc.
In this way they become more of an alternate human racial choice for players.
All the sociopathic humans that raid their homes for baubles,...of COURSE orcs are wacko.
All I'm sayin'.
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So what about the nastiness particular to Orcs? Their 'song' if you will. The clever, unique Pathfinder hook? What would players find new and fun in combating Orcs...
pig men, boar...mmmm...I am salivating. Sooo.....
Orcs aren't Slavers. Orcs EAT men. They eat orcs too, for they are cannibals. Orc vs. Orc wars are a boon for both sides. Plenty of dead bodies to eat. Perhaps MOST ghouls are actually of orcish stature, their hunger persisting even into undeath.
The more intelligent the creature, the better. Thus while they are canniballs, it is the flesh of humans, elves, and dwarves they prize most for the best part of any creature is gray matter held inside the delicate nut called a skull.
Perhaps change the Orc favored weapon into a Heavy Pick, to better pierce a hole into the skull for easy access to the sweet brains beneath.
Now that I am back from work, I find that my subconscious has been hard at work. Here is a quick variant take on orcs.
The orcs are run on a caste system. The strongest are bred for strength and are similar to the Uruk-Hai. +2str +2con -2int -4cha
these could be interbred with ogres. (Orog!)
The priest caste is made up of those that are deformed or marked.-2str +2wis. Those that survive a ritual scourging and vigil become shamen and are granted the power to matchmake the orcs and occasionaly veto the leaders. (The power behind the throne)
There is a caste of charismatic orcs that are bred to be handsome and diplomatic. They have some of the flexibility of humans, and are often part human. They are genetically predisposed to narcissism and occasional sociopathology. +2cha -2wis. Many are used as spies in human lands and may hold positions of power. (Red scare)
Some orcs are bred small and have quick clever fingers. They are usually in artificer or trade clans. (Like the normal goblin from Tolkein) +2dex +2int -2str -2con (sinister workers in the dark)
The brahmins are schooled in competitive groups and must learn to lead other castes in elaborate raids and games. (Ender the orc)
Most orc encounters are with the common warrior orcs, sometimes with the charismatics or a shaman.
There are shard tribes that have left the orclands and do not follow the breeding taboos. They consort with ogres and giants, and are savage and barbaric totemists with many varied cultures.
Human lands have orcs that are like humans with a subtle cast of features that is angular and slightly green skin. They are held in special contempt by other orcs and are usually slaughtered in sacrifice to the goddess of marriage and ritual.
Just off the top of my head.
All very interesting, but the point must be made again that Pathfinder orcs will be orcs right out of the Monster Manual. Paizo has made this clear. Any variation will strictly be flavor and not changes to the basic stat block. Just like the goblins. Just like the kobolds.
That said, there's lots of really cool stuff in this thread.
I am inclined to agree that we will have to stick to reworking the fluff into something unique and interesting, rather than offer some new stats. Taliesin's world sounds like a very interesting one though, what with all the Orcish castes - I would love a chance to frolic in it.
Stedd picked up on something cool, too. If we give slavery and branding to the more lawful and organized Hobgoblins, why not make the Orcs superstitious cannibals?
Summarizing some of the ideas presented here so far, Orcs could have their horrific mounts, their flesh-preparing tools and weapons, and great underground homes with a mysterious reason to be breaking upon the surface world. People seem to like the look of Native American Head-dresses and Celtic Tattoos too.
Let me add a few images and ideas. What if they would surround towns a la Mad Max, beating great drums, wearing animalistic masks, galloping around the fear-gripped village, chucking the eaten remains of their victims over the palisades. What if their 'flaw' was to be deeply superstitious, fearing some forms of magic, or daylight, and in eating specific parts of their victims. The warrior her heart, the mage his brain, the rogue her hand. This could also tie in with their taxidermy and hide preparation skills.
Great confusion could erupt if commoners mistook them for Hobgoblins: "We surrender, take us to your slave mines ... hey, why are you heating that cauldron up?"
Cheers
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I am inclined to agree that we will have to stick to reworking the fluff into something unique and interesting, rather than offer some new stats. Taliesin's world sounds like a very interesting one though, what with all the Orcish castes - I would love a chance to frolic in it.
Stedd picked up on something cool, too. If we give slavery and branding to the more lawful and organized Hobgoblins, why not make the Orcs superstitious cannibals?
Sort of like the Wendol in Eaters of the Dead/13th Warrior.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Sort of like the Wendol in Eaters of the Dead/13th Warrior.I am inclined to agree that we will have to stick to reworking the fluff into something unique and interesting, rather than offer some new stats. Taliesin's world sounds like a very interesting one though, what with all the Orcish castes - I would love a chance to frolic in it.
Stedd picked up on something cool, too. If we give slavery and branding to the more lawful and organized Hobgoblins, why not make the Orcs superstitious cannibals?
YES YES YES!
Following along with the earlier portions of this thread - new flavor for orcs - what if Orcs weren't piglike at all? What if they were more simian than anything else? Maybe they look like Devil Apes?
Orcs aren't Slavers. Orcs EAT men. They eat orcs too, for they are cannibals. Orc vs. Orc wars are a boon for both sides. Plenty of dead bodies to eat. Perhaps MOST ghouls are actually of orcish stature, their hunger persisting even into undeath.The more intelligent the creature, the better. Thus while they are canniballs, it is the flesh of humans, elves, and dwarves they prize most for the best part of any creature is gray matter held inside the delicate nut called a skull.
Soylent Pie is made of people...!!!
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2)As for orcs, I have always approached them as shamanistic or almost Native American in culture, albeit with a slightly savage and evil twist so they jibe in some ways with the MM and players expectations. I mean they are brutal savages who live amongst the wilderness (not saying Native Americans are) and, to me, it seems easiest to correlate that to some kind of Apache, Iroqouis mindset -- deep respect for the land and its gifts, unrelenting attackers of those who encroach upon their territory.
This idea is interesting, but drag it a few thousands miles southerly in inspiration, and picture the Orcs as being less 'Iroquois' and more 'Aztec.'
Massive military campaigns to provide a stream of daily sacrifices for their bloody faith, which they maintain must be strictly followed, to keep the world from ending (the Far Realms monsters from coming through the gate, the sun from going out, whatever)! Grand structures meant to bring their altars above the tree line, so that the sun-god (or moon-god, whatever) can look down pleased upon their offerings. Violent and athletic sporting events that may end in the death of losing team-members.
It's kind of taking the savage Orcs of the SRD, mixing them with the naturist Orcs of Eberron, and throwing an Aztec twist on them.
Perhaps they build great bonfires to hold back the forces of Shadow, and their Darkvision is part of the Great Rite of Sacrifice they made in the dark days of old, to serve as eternal watchmen in the night, standing strong against those who dwell in Shadow. They consider the other races weak and foolish, for having forgotten the evils in the dark, and for not recognizing that they owe the Orcs for their great sacrifice. The Orcs raid humans, elves, etc. thinking that the only reason the humans, elves, etc. still exist is because of the Orcish mission against the Shadow dwellers, and that the Orcs, as the watchmen and guardians, *deserve* to take the human and elven goods. It is only fitting that the weak 'soft races' toil to produce goods for their defenders in the night!
Does not the ruler pay his guardsmen? So to must the races that hide in their homes from the terrors that walk the night pay tribute to those who stand outside and hold back the darkness!
Of course, it has been centuries, and the Shadow really hasn't shown up much, so the Orcs have gotten used to 'taking their pay,' despite not actually 'guarding' anyone from the Shadow dwellers. Won't it come as a nasty shock to Orc and 'soft race' alike when the Shadow does return, and the Orcs are suddenly in the awkward position of having to put up or shut up, while the races that have been resenting and repelling their incessant raids for centuries suddenly find themselves quietly wishing that there were *more* of them...
A possibility is to have the orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears in Pathfinder share a distant ancestry. The orcs being chaotic in nature are more care-free and less rigid than say, hobgoblins, who are rigid, structured, and much more organized than the orcs.
Could be that the orcs were once humans who were corrupted by Asmodeus and perhaps some other dark deities amongst the Pathfinder pantheon thousands of years in the past.. Or perhaps the orcs were created during a brief period of history when there was a fiendish influence on the world. Or they were human followers of the Runelords who deceived them into thinking they would get more power from their arrogant, manipulative masters. In turn the Runelords twisted them into the goblinoids that are present today.
Another idea is that orcs were created by powerful draconic sorceries as foot soldiers, slaves, and the like when dragons ruled over part of Pathfinder world... But that goes against the strongly entrenched idea that is popular within the D&D line of thinking that dragons are nothing more than a bunch of really tough treasure hoarders.. An idea that I have grown to despise.. But that's just me. But I digress.