After two fantastic roleplay sessions, I feel that the time is ripe for my PCs to get their dice out and start fighting things. I will be running Jzaridune and hopefully the Malachite Hold this coming weekend and I would like to be as prepared for it as I can possibly can. What have you done to make this dungeon more memorable? What do you wish you would have done? Any and all advice you can give will be readily digested and (hopefully) incorporated. Muchos gracias everyone.
We initially had a very bad time with Jzaridune. The PC rogue could not deal with the traps and locks, and this made the player feel that the PCs were in over their head and should abandon the attempt. The experience of repeatedly failing with locks, getting zorched by traps, and then finding empty rooms was particularly discouraging.
The adventure got a lot better after two of the PCs, who had become separated temporarily from the others (by the Malachite elevator room) were attacked by the Dark Stalker and managed to fight him to a standstill. He panicked and offered to deal with them. The PCs killed the grell and another monster (I forget what it was) for him in return for information about the complex and its dangers, plus Starbrow's safe return. I don't know how the GM could have engineered this, though--it seemed like blind luck that it happened.
I asked the GM his opinion, and he said, "It's too big. Cut it down." I tend to agree. The PCs are probably looking for lost children, which makes it hard for them to care very much about the long-dead gnomes and their fate. Without that, it's not an enormously interesting dungeon. Our PCs flatly refused to look at it all; they did what the Stalker asked, found their way down into Malachite after the kids, and never explored the rest of Jzaridune. (They still haven't, even though they were using Malachite as a base for most of the campaign.)
From a player perspective, I'd recommend checking your rogue's Open Locks, Search and Disable Device checks, and if they are not up to the DCs found in the adventure, either modify the DCs or tell the player flatly when the rogue examines the first lock, "This is brilliant work and beyond your abilities--you'd better think of ways around it." (If there is no rogue, the party will probably already be oriented to finding other solutions, so I think it's less of a problem.)
Mary
When I ran it for my group I added monsters to some of the empty rooms as I felt it was too empty. Of course that meant it got harder but hey noone said an adventurer´s life was easy :D
All in all I agree with Mary, cut it down. It can get frustrating with all those locks, traps just to find another empty room.
Yes, its to big as in complex. As a gnomish city, I figure it should be a big room filled with individual dwellings with some interesting side passages. . . the bath, the grell room, the dark stalkers room. The doors and such are really cool and all but your party will go one of 2 ways, hate them or have to open them all.
also, on the advice of the web enhancment I made the pit traps harder. Don't do that, CR3 traps means the party walks down a few hallways and levels without combat or treasure. Kaz's treasure room should make up for the no treasure though.
I played through this dungeon a month ago (or so). The dungeon is boring as written, and should probably be cut down in size or some locked doors should remain locked. Adding some "dynamic" encounters may be a good idea if the players decide to explore every inch of the dungeon.
I threw in some additional monsters and ambushes. Luckily the players followed the path of least resistance. If you check the dungeon and follow the open doors/passages you'd notice that the players may find the elevator quickly. Clever design.
As soon as they encountered the baddie at the bottom, they grabbed the kid and ran, and never returned.
Good luck!
Generally, I have to agree with all of the above advice, though I did find J handy to help my players gel their tactical style. After a few hard hits from various nasties, they smartened up a lot.
Also, I don't know if I was playing him wrong or what, but the Dark Stalker guy was a complete monster. He absolutely spanked my team, killing Fario outright in the first round.
Frankly, my favorite part of Chapter 1 was in the Hold, after my clever players had disabled the elevator to prevent any nasties from coming topside. After re-enabling the elevator, they ran into Xukasas and the elemental, which was a little tense, but it was when they entered the complex proper that things got fun.
I ruled that the Hobgoblins were smart enough to know that trouble was coming, and set up an elaborate ambush that allowed both pit traps to be used effectively. The crowning moment was when a group of hobgoblins, using secret doors, came out behind the wizard and bull-rushed him into the first pit.
The players loved it, I loved it; heck, even my wife, who wasn't playing at the time, loved it.
If your players spend a lot of time exploring Jzadirune before saving the kids, they will find it frustrating. Especially at first level, many of the encounters are deadly. Keep in mind:
1) The skulks are cowards that run after attacking for a round or two. My group captured one, and with Keygan's help, were able to question it to find the way down.
2) The stalker will similarly cut a deal with adventurers for info on how to make it underground.
3) Finally, the mimic can also provide the information the group wants.
The point of the dungeon seems to be a place to get past quickly, as the Malachite Fortress has easier hobgoblins to defeat. With the XP from that dungeon in hand, the group should be more able to clear Jzadirune. Of course, the Vanishing may scare them off too.
Once Kazmojen is defeated, most of the intelligent creatures (skulks, creepers, stalkers, hobgoblins) will clear out as there are easier pickings elsewhere, and they will take the automatons with them. This makes the dungeon easier. Kazmojen's treasure, the main treasure room and the scroll room in Jzadirune will still be there, so there are ample rewards for taking the time to search the place.
My group is using the tunnels and the keys they have found to open doors. They have realized that the doors are difficult to open, which the rogue has interpreted as a challenge. The wizard learned Knock specifically because of the number of doors, so they are adjusting to the dungeon rather than getting frustrated. Because the kids have been rescued, the time pressure is off, and they can take a little more time to explore and be more thorough.
Some people will see an empty place as being boring. I was going to use the emptiness of the place to heighten the feeling of loneliness and abandonment, along with the sorrow of opportunity lost.
I ruled that the Hobgoblins were smart enough to know that trouble was coming, and set up an elaborate ambush that allowed both pit traps to be used effectively. The crowning moment was when a group of hobgoblins, using secret doors, came out behind the wizard and bull-rushed him into the first pit.The players loved it, I loved it; heck, even my wife, who wasn't playing at the time, loved it.
I had a similar fun time with that room. The main fighter banged on the door between the statue room and the main, trapped hallway. He then bull-rushed the hobgoblin that opened the door. Hobgoblin archers placed themselves just south of the first pit. A couple rounds and the group had killed the archers and could only see the guys at the far southern end. The fighter tries to intimidate them, saying they're next.
The hobgoblins smile and open the trap underneath the fighter, the urban ranger and the cleric. Reinforcements (in 2 waves) then came in from the forge. Chaos ensued.
Of course, cleave came in quite handy, and by the time that the fighter got to the south end, the hobgoblins there were quite panicked. Unfortunately, the southern door (leading to the auction block) was barred on the other side by the "reinforcements" before they came around, so the lever hobgoblins couldn't get out.
The fighter was quite pleased. More so when the wizard cast Knock and the fighter got to charge Kazmojen before the rest of the group was past the second pit area.
My group just made it to the malachite hold and have had a very similar experience in the trapped hallway. They had decided it was better to stay as a ranged combat and were doing alright but not great untill some hobgoblins used the secret passageways and came in behind them. The session finished with two Pc's on 3HP, The cleric not much better off and out of spells, the fighter (who spent most of the time in the pit trap) actually came out best at 7HP. I'm plannign to have them captured next and Fario and fellian to rescue them as they have not met yet. I think F+F might take some of the prisoners but leave Kaz to the PC's.
As for Jzadirune. I agree with the comments about getting the group to bond, gives new players experience and there are some humerous moments. My group decided one room looked very important and spent an hour getting to it, getting into it and almost dying, only to find it was the toilets. More funny as the ranger had joked only a few minutes before that the symbols probably meant "Gents".
As advice - Put the Symbols from the doors on 6x4 card and write the trap info and corresponding letter on the back. I didn't do this and spent ages cross referencing map letters with symbols to show players and traps if they tried to open the door. This would have made the game much smoother.
Hope this helps
Elcian
If my group had been captured, I think I would've had the Stormblades rescue them to help kick off a healthy rivalry.
It's gotten to the point where now, every time the PCs run into a group of mooks, mook #1 says "Oh no, it's the Stormblades, we should give up!" followed quickly by mook #2 "That's not the Stormblades; they're way scarier than these guys."
Gets my players all stirred up.
I think Jzadirune needs a few things to really be fun.
First, cut Jzadirune down by removing some of the empty and unnecessary rooms. There is a lot of uninteresting territory to explore, which can drag things out and make it tedious.
Second, make the inhabitants dynamic. The skulks should be following the party, setting up ambushes, attacking PCs who wander off alone, and generally being scary bogeymen during the party's time in the abandoned city.
Finally, play up the haunted, abandoned aspects of the city itself. Mysterious noises, cobwebs floating in a breeze, dusty smells, and gossamer phantasms that fade from sight, all contribute to the eery sense of loss and abandoment and can provide some additional tension to the table.
Wow guys, this is all great stuff! I've looked over the dungeon and you are right about all the empty rooms. I'm thinking about filling them up with some of them with some creatures and possibly an encounter with a gnome ghost to really creep them out. (I was planning on making a little side quest relating to this - does anyone have any suggestions?)
Also, does anyone know what kind of monsters/encounters might fit in well in some of these empty rooms and might make for an interesting encounter?
I say have the ghost of a gnomish bard wandering around, lamenting the loss of Jzaridune. Not only is this just neat, it means that if you have some really sad, ethereal music available on CD or Ipod, you can spin it up and change the volume as the players get closer to or farther away from the bard.
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Also, does anyone know what kind of monsters/encounters might fit in well in some of these empty rooms and might make for an interesting encounter?
Grick. Monstrous Spiders/Centipedes. Darkmantle. Carrion Crawler. Stirge. Gnomish Skeletons/zombies.
However, that being said, I would caution you against making Jzadirune into just a monster-filled dungeon where PCs merely encounter room after room of unrelated encounters.
Not only will this advance the PCs in XP faster than the game is designed to do, but it also reduces the verisimilitude of the dungeon - it is supposedly been inhabited for quite some time by the Dark Ones, and it would simply not be plausible that so many creatures are still around that were not encountered and/or dealt with already by the "Dark Ones."
Instead I suggest filling the "empty" rooms with signs of a once long-gone goodly civilization. Play on the lonliness and emptiness it provokes when the PCs see these "empty rooms" as instead having been living quarters for so many gnomish families that have deserted their once wonderful home due to the horrible curse. Gnomish nick-nacks, childrens toys and dolls, old board games, eating utensils; family secret recipes, shopping lists, love-notes, clothing, wedding/marriage memorabilia, etc. These things remind the players that this was once someone's home; an entire community of good-hearted decent family-oriented people and how sad the circumstances are that made them suddenly abandon their homes. Think about what would be found if your neighborhood suddenly left in the night, and 100 years later someone slowly investigated the little houses...
I agree with some of the posts that the dungeon CAN become tedious or boring, but in fact you reap what you sow. Its just a matter of dramatic flair. There are roleplaying scenarios; perhaps the Dark Stalker surrenders, the mimic barters the rat for money to buy "food from hobgoblins" put good creative flair into the "ghostly" image play that acts itself out on the stage, and never forget to continue re-emphasizing on the number of wondrous and clever contraptions, inventions and designs of clockworks and gears found throughout the complex.
Robert
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If my group had been captured, I think I would've had the Stormblades rescue them to help kick off a healthy rivalry.
It's gotten to the point where now, every time the PCs run into a group of mooks, mook #1 says "Oh no, it's the Stormblades, we should give up!" followed quickly by mook #2 "That's not the Stormblades; they're way scarier than these guys."
Gets my players all stirred up.
OH MY! That is just BRILLIANT! My players have come to absolutley DESPISE that group and already wish murder was legal! They crawl out of Jzadirun after their first foray into the dungeon, having killed the Raggomoffyn, the choker, a bunch of Dark Ones and a pulverizer. They're badly beaten, two unconscoius, out of spell energy, and simply looking like hammered meat, and the first thing they see is a parade underway celebrating the Stormblades success in killing a few kobolds in the lava-tubes. They couldnt help but quote the Joker. "This town needs an enema!" They constantly try to outdo each other on coming up with colorful expletive replacement names for the "Stormblades".
They hate the fact that the Stormblades are getting all the recognition. And they're REALLY going to hate what I have in store next for them all...when the Stormblades actually get lauded as the heroes for returning the children when in fact they had nothing to do with it. The hook: Todd V's younger brother is a PC. The PC went home after his success and told Todd all about the adventure. The Stormblades will use this inside info to indicate it was them who were there! Who's the town to believe? The paragon heroic "Stormblades" or this group of ragtag folks who haven't even settled on a Group Name yet nor bothered to register themselves as a recognized adventuring group yet!
I gotta try out this little quote of yours, too, though. Oh how wickedly delicious. I can't wait to see the look on their faces, and the rolling eyes!
Robert
My party had good fun in Jzadirune. While at points it seemed a bit long, I just put that into the NPC roleplaying: Jenya and the other Cuthbertites appearing concerned and asking "Back to rest again? But what about the children?"
This made the size and spacial complexity of Jzadirune another challenge to overcome.
And in the end, the XP, gp and additional levels saved their bacon in the Malachite Hold.
Have fun!
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(Another problem? Because my group was so thorough exploring the dungeon, they rapidly leveled up, and, at this current rate, are looking to be at 5th level or so by the time they even start Drakthar's Way. Adding more monsters into the empty rooms would just accelerate this.)
My suggestion at this point: skip Drathkars - or significantly hack it down. It's not really imperative to the story -- it wasn't even originally in the dungeon mag adventures: added in this updated 3.5 version specifically as a means to level up the PCs to be ready for Flood Season - which it sounds like they already will be.
To follow up on what Chalkboard was saying about the monotony of searching every room for the children: you can't say enough about using some of the Dark Ones encounter to actually propel the PCs along the correct path. PCs need to learn quickly that they can't just slaughter them all immediately. They need to talk to them. DMs need to use some tactics so that the Dark Ones don't fight to the death all the time either - they're not really that sort of 'death before dishonor' type of creature anyways. They'll gladly give out info in exchange for their life and freedom.
This could help the PCs find the entrance to Malachite Fortress and the missing children far quicker.
As for my game, after the PCs spent one whole day (character day) in Jzadirune and encountering many things: Raggomoffyn, choker, pulverizer, and two encounters with the Dark Ones, they went back to the city to rest and heal. The Dark Ones, realizing they had been discovered, mounted a last ditch ambush headed by the Stalker upon the PCs re-entering the community and after failing, the Stalker a skulk and a creeper all surrendered. The Stalker agreed to "leave town never to return and give all info he had as to the missing people" in exchange for "letting the three of them go"
He gave them the Rune key to get to the elevator, provided all the inside info as to how the people went missing and why and where they went and who was commanding the Malachite Fortress. In the end the PCs let them go as they said they would and the Dark Ones got out of dodge having no further desire to bring the wrath of the city down on them. They realized their gig was up and moved on. This significantly reduced the amount of thorough searching to find the children and gave them a good amount of direction to more quickly resolve the quest.
Robert
I ran Jzadirune this weekend and had a blast. For some strange reason, the PCs decided to split up, with the party wizard and ranger deciding to go speak to Lord V for some "backup," while the cleric, rogue and barbarian entered the ruins by themselves.
Needless to say, the three man team was ambushed by the skulks (I really played on their ability to camouflage with their surroundings) and were sufficiently freaked out. They decided to retreat upstairs and wait for the rest of their group to come back.
The other group went to Lord V's manor, where I ended up describing the statues adorning his lawn and his elegant manor house. They had several roleplaying encounters with his servants who told the PCs about several of Lord V's idiosyncrasies (his extremely large appetite for example). They were unable to speak with him directly, but they are more than a little suspicious about this half elf who is more than he appears to be.
The party gets together again and begins procrastinating despite my subtle reminders that they are operating under a limited timeframe ("half a dwarf binds them, but not for long..."). So, to remedy the situation, I have them encounter Fario and Fellian who had been spying on them from the roof before Fellian slipped and fell off the tiles. Once these two joined up, they decided to brave Jzadirune again.
In the mask room, they find the secret door leading to the great factory. There, they managed to find a creative way to bypass the tilt-a-pit trap, wherein the orc barbarian ended up legpressing the one ton stone slab, while the halfling rogue was lowered down on a rope to jam the rotating the mechanism. Afterwards, in the factory room, they are ambushed by the grell who flies off with a paralyzed orc barbarian in tow. The party manages to kill the foul creature, but not before it slurps out the brains of the barbarian.
The PCs decide to rest a bit before continuing. They run into a dark creeper who they subdue. The creeper leads them to the dark stalker who they negotiate with for directions to the lift. The stalker asks for the grell tentacles (whom it believes to be the cure for his illness) and the PCs comply. The dark stalker tells them how to get to the lift, but "forgets" to mention the pulverizer automaton and the dark creeper who are hiding inside of the invisibility sphere. Once the PCs get through that encounter they make it to the 'D' door leading to the lift. Though I suggested that they perhaps find another way through the locked door, the stubborn PCs decide to pick it. Amazingly, with the use of an action point, the 2nd level halfling rogue manages to pick the DC 30 lock (she had +10 to open locks and rolled a 17. The action point took care of the rest)leading to the lift and now they are on their way down to the Malachite Hold.
The session ended there.
Everyone's advice made last week's session a truly memorable romp through a gnomish enclave. Despite one of the PCs dying to the grell, everyone enjoyed the dungeon crawl and I'm sure they were proud of finding a way through the maze in a single session (albeit a 6 hour one). Now, next up on the agenda is the Malachite Hold. Several new PCs have expressed an interest in joining up, so I will have them be rescued in the jail cell areas. In any case, I would like to know if you guys have any more pearls of wisdom to share in running this second dungeon. Thanks in advance!
I ended up having Keyghan give them a scroll with an outline (the player handout), and changing the map room so that it marked which doors were which letter and marked changes in the wall (so marked where tunnel entrances and secret doors were, but not the tunnels or rooms themselves) - basically that it was a security room rather than a tourist room.
Which let me make the dungeon much less of an exercise in confused wandering, but that may be something that just works better for my group (who doesn't really focus well on mapping and the like any more)
P.S. They ended up avoiding doors so the Grell was the very first thing they faced - they got a bit lucky and defeated it without casualty but it was a tough and interesting battle and they had to heal a bunch so it was a nice start to the evening (I'd stopped right as they got into Jzadirune before)
I'm also thinking of running Jzadirune sometime soon, and had a couple of questions:
1. The "Player's Map of Jzadirune" seems to available to them twice - once as a sketch on a piece of leather in G5 (Keygan's Bedroom), and then again in on the wall in room J16 ("Map Room"). This seems a little odd. Is the intent to make the map available again in case they didn't get it from Keygan, or am I not reading this correctly?
2. The Vanishing seems poorly explained. I understand that there's a one-day incubation period, but after the initial Fort save (and possible 1d6 Cha loss), what happens? An additional Fort save at DC 15 every day, with another 1d6 Cha lost until the victim has disappeared? It's unclear to me.
Thanks in advance!
I'm also thinking of running Jzadirune sometime soon, and had a couple of questions:
1. The "Player's Map of Jzadirune" seems to available to them twice - once as a sketch on a piece of leather in G5 (Keygan's Bedroom), and then again in on the wall in room J16 ("Map Room"). This seems a little odd. Is the intent to make the map available again in case they didn't get it from Keygan, or am I not reading this correctly?
That is essentially correct. Both maps show the same thing. Of course, the characters can't take the map from room J16 with them.
2. The Vanishing seems poorly explained. I understand that there's a one-day incubation period, but after the initial Fort save (and possible 1d6 Cha loss), what happens? An additional Fort save at DC 15 every day, with another 1d6 Cha lost until the victim has disappeared? It's unclear to me.
It functions like any other disease (see the DMG, page 292). The diseased character must make a Fortitude at the listed DC every day or suffer the listed damage. If he makes the save two days in a row, he fights off the disease. (Unless the description of the Vanishing says otherwise, what with it being a supernatural disease and all, but I don't think it does.) Also note that a character will regain 1 point of ability damage each day (2 with complete bed rest), even on a day where they take damage from the disease.
My players have come to absolutley DESPISE that group and already wish murder was legal! They crawl out of Jzadirun after their first foray into the dungeon, having killed the Raggomoffyn, the choker, a bunch of Dark Ones and a pulverizer. They're badly beaten, two unconscoius, out of spell energy, and simply looking like hammered meat, and the first thing they see is a parade underway celebrating the Stormblades success in killing a few kobolds in the lava-tubes.
I nearly fell off my seat laughing.
I got the immediate image of bloody adventurers stumbling out of Ghelve's onto the street just as the parade is passing by, with waving banners marked with THE STORMBLADES, baton twirlers, and "Semper Fidelis" by Sousa playing in the background.
Since my players are hitting Jzadirune this weekend, this thread has been more than helpful (and hilarious).
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Not every encounter in Jzadirune needs to be a combat encounter.
If the group discovers the secret door too early the lift platform may be down...
The Mimic and the Dark Stalker are great chances for role playing.
For example: The Dark Stalker is desperate for a cure. In order for the adventures to prove themselves he tries to convince them to return the body of the Dark creeper to his "family" from the lair of the grell.
The mimic will give information for food, it had a nasty diet for the last weeks. Anything fresh will be appreciated (it only speaks Undercommon though).
It may happen later, that there will be an additional combat with those spoken to earlier, but that brings only more story to the encounters there.
Example from my campaign:
After the first encounter with Dark Creepers the monsters were not slain, but brought to the town guard. When the group entered the lair of the Dark Stalker, they hadn't found the children nor Starbrow nor the way down.
The Dark Stalker tries to bring his family together (Read Dragon #324 or #323 for an excellent article about the Dark Folk). He promises information about the whereabouts of the abdected children and a further key to the doors, if the adventurers bring him the dead remains from the grell room and the captured Creepers back, plus curing him from this condition (i.e. infected with the Vanishing). He will then go back into the Underdark with his "children". The adventurers comply, killing the grell(s) and contacting the Town Council with a very helpful Lord Vhalantru *G*...
Meanwhile one party member is not happy with the groups decisions and contacts the Dark Stalker directly, he answers his questions about the whereabouts of the Dark Creepers captured earlier and is then imprisoned in the South eastern part of the dungeon. The "rogue" member is freed by an NPC (could be Jil, in my case another rogue from the backstory of said character) while the rest of the group goes to the cellar of the Watchhouse to free the Dark Creepers. They encounter carnage and in the ensuing mayhem only the arrival of the "rogue" character tipped the scale in favor of the heroes.
Another thing:
Try to give the NPC's something by which they are remembered.
Examples from my campaign:
Ruphus Laro burns with religious fervor (extremely Lawful).
Jenya Urekas is more knowledgeable about the workings of the world and sees the role of the temple of St. Cuthbert in a softer light. Very understanding.
Captain Terseon Skellerang = JJJ in 6'5", breaks a lot of pencils.
When you return to the surface for rest, Jenya will require status reports.
The party should face a moral dilemma about Keygan Ghelve. Should they relinquish him to the authorities? Keygan will offer himself to the authorities once Starbrow is brought to him.
Will the Striders of Fharlagn accompany the group down? Is Keygan's Locks under watch by guards (from the Town Watch or from the temple of St. Cuthbert), while the group goes downstairs?