Just read the article, and it makes me wonder. Say you need an evil, swamp-dwelling, acid-breathing dragon. 99% of the D&D playing world immediately says, "black," and moves on. But according to this article, we should consider the NICKEL DRAGON which, as near as I can tell, is a black dragon with different flavor text and some swapped-out spell-like abilities. So, my question is, why include stats for all these "new" types? A 1-page article with "variant ideas for existing dragons" would have gotten the same ideas across with less fanfare and a whole lot less wasted page count.
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Is there an aluminum dragon???
Yes, but he got recycled. Ba-dump-ba.
LOL :)
Har Har Har! Heathy, you are sooooo funny! Not!
I noticed a few missing bits in this article as well. There is a mention of Gruaghlothor, the Supreme (ferrous) Dragon, and then the article refers you to a sidebar for more info. I see no such sidebar.
Also, there are no CRs listed for any of the dragons, save the sample ones.
I liked the nickel dragon. Cone of acid gas for breath which is fun, and it makes you itchy! Granted, the nickel dragon is probably the weakest (in more ways than one) of all the ferrous dragons. The best out of all the dragons is the cobalt dragon, in my humble opinion. Its breath weapon is a line of "pulsing magnetic energy" that does force damage as well as a bull rush to everyone within the area with a check equal to damage dealt! What fun! Plus they are the rumored progentiors of the kobold race, which is humorous.
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Also, there are no CRs listed for any of the dragons, save the sample ones.
Untrue my friend! We have simply moved the CRs to the second table for each dragon. This and a few other minor tweaks to the layout were done to make them look more like the new stat blocks. Let us know what you think about the tweaks we made!
I will look more closely next time! Oh, there it is, where the dragon's CL and SR is listed, the CR is is listed the to the right. Takes a whole paragraph of text out by adding one extra column. I like that change!
What about the sidebar on Gruaghlothor? I'm not missing that one too, am I? *cleans off galsses*
I liked the nickel dragon.
Sure, but I can look up its stats in the MM or SRD; I don't need them cut and pasted into the article. See? Same HD, size categories, AC, etc. as the black dragon. Mechanically, it IS a black dragon, except (a) cone instead of line and (b) swapped out spell-like abilities. Likewise, the iron is suspiciously like the red; just give it elite abilities, alter the breath, and swap out spell-like abilities. Why not just say so?
Well, it is unfortunate that someone just copy-pasted black dragon stats for the nickel and switched the flavor text and abilities, but then you could say the same for most every dragon. They have stats that tend to differ only marginally, different breath weapons, and different spell-like abilities. Other than that they come in a wide variety of shapes, sizes, and colors. :/ Maybe I'm easily satisfied when there is pleasing artwork to look at?
It wouldn't have been difficult to tweak the stats a bit so they weren't exactly the same, though, that much I agree on.
*EDIT* Well what's up with that Gruaghlothor fellow, Mike? Anything good, or was the idea ditched early?
They have stats that tend to differ only marginally, different breath weapons, and different spell-like abilities.
Well, there's the silver dragon and the *cough* topaz dragon *cough*.
This and a few other minor tweaks to the layout were done to make them look more like the new stat blocks.
Will WotC use this new-fangled table as well? Two more weeks to wait at my FLGS for #356. At least I'll pick it up with my pre-ordered She-Hulk #18, and Hulk #106 and Worldbreaker Prologue. (Hulk Smash!) :)
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What about the sidebar on Gruaghlothor? I'm not missing that one too, am I? *cleans off galsses*On that I have no comment. We obviously forgot to delete the reference to the sidebar in the main text. :(
Or... um... I guess I did have a comment, after all. :D
Does that mean we won't being seeing anymore information on Gruahlothor the Supreme Dragon =( I was really looking forward to reading that sidebar! Any chance we'll see it posted here?
i *could* post it... but then i'd have to kill you. ;)
Maybe I'm easily satisfied when there is pleasing artwork to look at?
hey, that brings up a good question. how's the art? the original article in Dragon #170 didn't depict the individual ferrous dragon types nor describe them much beyond their color, so we basically had to invent their looks.
As one of the co-authors of the article, I can address the similarities between the nickel and black.
As RavinRay and others have pointed out, true dragons tend to be very similar in terms of Hit Dice, ability scores, breath weapon damage, and special ability progression. Compare the silver and red in the MM, for example. Only a slight difference in ability scores, swapping cold for fire and a few spell-like abilities.
When we began to update the ferrous dragon from their original source material in Dragon #170, we tried to remain as true to the author's work. The nickel and black were intentionally similar in abilities, resulting in them fighting for territories in bloody melee combat. We'd already took a gamble in reimagining the ferrous dragons by making them all lawful and didn't want to retcon the individuals too far from their roots.
While it's true we could have given a list of guidelines for modifying a black dragon to create a nickel dragon, I'm not sure that would have been the best approach. When things like this have been tried in the past, others post that they'd rather not have to do the work themselves. Even something as simple as saying "increase the black dragon's Str by 1 and reduce its Int and Cha by 1" can be alot of work, affecting the attack modifier, grapple modifier, and frightful presence DC. On the other hand, we could have radically reimagined the nickel with a different Hit Dice progression and breath weapon type than the black, but then it wouldn't have remained true to its original flavor or place in the hierarchy. Plus, it would have then basically been a carbon copy of another type of dragon (at least as far as Hit Dice progession, ability scores, etc. are concerned).
If you look at all the true dragons released to date, you'll find many repeating patterns and similarities between them. Ability scores tend to be close (particularly physical ability scores), and special abilities tend to occur at fairly regular intervals, with slight differences in the spell-like abilities available. If the designers were to start the Monster Manual anew, the bulk of the dragons could probably be created off a few master tables, just noting the differences.
All that said, the nickel is a slightly better spellcaster than the black, but has a weaker breath weapon which covers a wider area. Its spell-like abilities are more focused on its own survival than terrorizing others.
If you'd like the breath weapons to be less similar, I might suggest using the itching version of mass irritation as the breath weapon effect, and change the penalty to AC to equal the dragon's age category, and the penalty on attack rolls and Dex-based checks to 1/2 the dragon's age category.
While it's true we could have given a list of guidelines for modifying a black dragon to create a nickel dragon, I'm not sure that would have been the best approach. When things like this have been tried in the past, others post that they'd rather not have to do the work themselves. Even something as simple as saying "increase the black dragon's Str by 1 and reduce its Int and Cha by 1" can be alot of work, affecting the attack modifier, grapple modifier, and frightful presence DC. On the other hand, we could have radically reimagined the nickel with a different Hit Dice progression and breath weapon type than the black, but then it wouldn't have remained true to its original flavor or place in the hierarchy. Plus, it would have then basically been a carbon copy of another type of dragon (at least as far as Hit Dice progession, ability scores, etc. are concerned).
Thanks for the reply! I'm still not sure I'd use them-- but that's a flavor decision, and has nothing to do with the way the article is presented. You've sold me on the need for new stat blocks for people who've been waiting for them.
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*EDIT* Well what's up with that Gruaghlothor fellow, Mike? Anything good, or was the idea ditched early?
I dunno. Jason did the primary edit on the article, so I don't know what was in the sidebar.
Will WotC use this new-fangled table as well?
I doubt it. We might use a derivative of it for our GameMastery products, if the format proves popular.
Does that mean we won't being seeing anymore information on Gruahlothor the Supreme Dragon =( I was really looking forward to reading that sidebar! Any chance we'll see it posted here?
That's up to Boz and Shade now. :)
That's up to Boz and Shade now. :)
I haven't received my copy yet, so I can't say for sure what was cut and what was not.
Here's what we turned in as the "Gruaghlothor Sidebar".
"Gruaghlothor is the supreme ruler of the ferrous dragons. His power was once equal to that of Bahamut and Tiamat, before they achieved godhood. According to ferrous dragon legends, Gruaghlothor was the first of the ferrous dragons, and was responsible for creating the hierarchy that all ferrous dragons strictly follow. Several powerful red dragons banded together and destroyed Gruaghlothor, but he swore a dying curse to return for vengeance and not rest until all red dragons are destroyed. As a result of this curse, Gruaghlothor was indeed reborn, but not as the same creature. Should the current Gruaghlothor perish, the great wyrm iron dragons meet to choose one from among their ranks to become the new Gruaghlothor. Through a secret ritual that lasts exactly one year, the new Gruaghlothor emerges to lead the ferrous dragons and plot the extermination of red dragons."
"Gruaghlothor possesses a constant telepathic link with all ferrous dragons, and thus even the most evil of the species will not defy his will, for he will know instantly."
For more info on Gru, see Dragon #170. He's got 1E statistics within.
there you go, FWIW. ;) stats for him were not requested, so we just wrote up a quick explanation of what his deal was.
As one of the co-authors of the article, I can address the similarities between the nickel and black.
As RavinRay and others have pointed out, true dragons tend to be very similar in terms of Hit Dice, ability scores, breath weapon damage, and special ability progression. Compare the silver and red in the MM, for example. Only a slight difference in ability scores, swapping cold for fire and a few spell-like abilities.
Silver and topaz are even closer. Ability scores, HD (and thus saves), advancement, SR/PR and most spell-like/psi-like abilities, cold immunity are identical. When you put all true dragons into a spreadsheet (as I do, which allows me to automatically calculate the dependent stats from the independent stats), it's easy to see the similarities and differences.
One great thing about the article though, is that I finally get to know Shade's and BOZ's RW names, though which is which is something they'll never tell me. ;D
Edit: That's a neat story on Gruaghlothor. Gives both Tiamat and Garyx another rival to worry about. Now if only he will ascend to godhood...
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Shade & Box. I just finished reading the article and want to congradulate you. I really enjoyed it. Keep up the great work. With any luck, you'll be invited to stat up and flesh out Gruaghlothor in the future by ... somebody. Probably to late for inclusion in Dragon so I suppose it will have to be WotC.
What I was wondering while reading this was if these are the Lawful dragons, what about the Chaotic ones? I realize that was a change you made, but... We've got Good Dragons (Metallic), Neutral Dragons (Gem), Evil Dragons (Chromatic), and now Lawful Dragons (Ferrous).
hey, that brings up a good question. how's the art? the original article in Dragon #170 didn't depict the individual ferrous dragon types nor describe them much beyond their color, so we basically had to invent their looks.
The art is very nice. The nickel dragon is great and should confuse uneducated parties into thinking it's a black at first glance - that is, until someone rolls a Knowledge check and remembers that blacks have forward-swept horns and a line of acid, not a cone of gas. :P The first time my players encounter one I'm not showing them the picture right away.
The chromium dragon reminds me of a dinosaur with its long jaws and needle-sharp teeth. It is covered in overlapping chrome plates, giving it an articulated plate mail look. Very nice!
The cobalt dragon is thin and wiry, sporting clusters of tiny hornlets around the shoulders, elbows, and elsewhere. The ears and wings of the dragon are ragged with tears and holes, and the creatures wide-open maw gives it an almost crazed look. Hissing mad at the very least.
Iron dragons look like a typical dragon should, powerfully built and decked out in smaller horns and spikes all over. Its head bears an elaborte shield-chaped crest and its large eyes glow bright blue. For some reason I thought "Mecha Godzilla" when I saw this guy! Its probably the big rectangular eyes.
Tungsten dragons are pretty cool-looking, and match the descriptive text nicely. It has an almost dragon-grasshopper-butterfly look to it, with emphasis on the dragon.
On that I have no comment. We obviously forgot to delete the reference to the sidebar in the main text. :(
Or... um... I guess I did have a comment, after all. :D
Any chance of the Gruaghlothor sidebar becoming a web-enhancement? Pleasey... ;;D
added on: Ooips could you pass on the request to Boz and Shade, then?
What I was wondering while reading this was if these are the Lawful dragons, what about the Chaotic ones? I realize that was a change you made, but... We've got Good Dragons (Metallic), Neutral Dragons (Gem), Evil Dragons (Chromatic), and now Lawful Dragons (Ferrous).
muhahahahaha...
:(
let's just say we had an idea, if the ferrous article was popular enough, that we were going to submit. unfortunately, time waits for no man.
The art is very nice.
thanks! sounds good - can't wait to see it. :)
Gah, can someone please tell me the energy type of an Iron Dragon's breath weapon?
well, there are two types first of all... ;)
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Gah, can someone please tell me the energy type of an Iron Dragon's breath weapon?well, there are two types first of all... ;)
Well snarf, ok, put it this way... If I was creating a character with the Dragon Totem feat from Eberron, with an Iron Dragon Totem, would he get resist fire, resist acid, or resit (choose fire or acid)
Grr... must go gaming store
Well snarf, ok, put it this way... If I was creating a character with the Dragon Totem feat from Eberron, with an Iron Dragon Totem, would he get resist fire, resist acid, or resit (choose fire or acid)
Grr... must go gaming store
The suggested immunity for a half-iron dragon is fire, so I think resistance to fire would work best.
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The suggested immunity for a half-iron dragon is fire, so I think resistance to fire would work best.Well snarf, ok, put it this way... If I was creating a character with the Dragon Totem feat from Eberron, with an Iron Dragon Totem, would he get resist fire, resist acid, or resit (choose fire or acid)
Grr... must go gaming store
Thank you,
As you prevented me from leaving work early to stop at the gaming store without letting the wife know...
Consider this the web enhancement. :)
Gruaghlothor
Gruaghlothor is the supreme ruler of the ferrous dragons. His power was once equal to that of Bahamut and Tiamat, before they achieved godhood. According to ferrous dragon legends, Gruaghlothor was the first of the ferrous dragons, and was responsible for creating the hierarchy that all ferrous dragons strictly follow. Several powerful red dragons banded together and destroyed Gruaghlothor, but he swore a dying curse to return for vengeance and not rest until all red dragons are destroyed. As a result of this curse, Gruaghlothor was indeed reborn, but not as the same creature. Should the current Gruaghlothor perish, the great wyrm iron dragons meet to choose one from among their ranks to become the new Gruaghlothor. Through a secret ritual that lasts exactly one year, the new Gruaghlothor emerges to lead the ferrous dragons and plot the extermination of red dragons.
Gruaghlothor possesses a constant telepathic link with all ferrous dragons, and thus even the most evil of the species will not defy his will, for he will know instantly.
Here are a few other sidebars that were trimmed:
Other Ferrous Dragons
Ancient lore tells that twelve or more species of ferrous dragon existed before the great wars that nearly destroyed them. Two species were definitely driven to extinction, though none know the fate or current whereabouts of the other five species, not even the other ferrous dragons. The nature of the seven unknown species remains a mystery, but at least one is probably the magnetite (lodestone) dragon.
The Iron Wars
Several millennia past, civil war erupted between the good and evil ferrous dragons. The impetus for this war, now known as the first Iron War, has been lost to history, but rumors suggest that it began with the discovery of a particularly large deposit of iron ore. Regardless of the cause, many losses were suffered by the ferrous dragons, and their empire began its decline.
The second Iron War was initiated by a group of chaotic dragons known collectively as the rock dragons. Rivalry had long existed between the two groups, but open conflict rarely occurred. Sensing the weakened position of the ferrous dragons, the rock dragons moved in for the kill. The second Iron War ended in the near-extinction of both draconic empires. Tiamat sent her chromatic dragons to crush the last remnants of both.
As a result of the centuries-long Iron Wars, Gruaghlothor has very little tolerance for in-fighting between the ferrous dragons. Instead, he prefers that their enmity be channeled towards the chromatic dragons, particularly the reds.
Here are a few other cut bits:
Treasure
Like other true dragons, ferrous dragons hoard treasure. All varieties have triple standard treasure for their Challenge Rating. Ferrous dragons are particularly fond of coins and metallic items, hoarding them over gems and other non-metallic treasures.
Lore
Characters with ranks in Knowledge (arcana) can learn more about ferrous dragons. When a character makes a successful skill check, the following lore is revealed, including the information from lower DCs.
DC Result
15 This is a ferrous dragon. This result reveals all dragon traits.
20 Ferrous dragons can sense ordinary metals, making it hard to sneak up on one if using metal armor or weapons.
25 The lawful ferrous dragons have a strict hierarchy, with the higher dragons dictating the laws to the lower ones. The hierarchy, from highest to lowest, is iron, chromium, cobalt, tungsten, and nickel.
30 Gruaghlothor, the supreme ruler of all ferrous dragons, maintains a constant telepathic link with all his subjects; should any of them defy his will, he will know instantly.
Interesting Iron War backstory there... I'd guess that the CG rock dragons would not actually battle the LG tungsten dragons to the death (much like archons and eladrins restrict themselves to philosophical debates) unless under extreme circumstances, but would instead go for the LE ferrous dragons (and vice-versa for the tungsten dragon going for the CE rock dragons).
it's all academic now. we'll have to see what we're going to do with the rock dragons, if anything. we haven't statted them yet or anything.
I haven't seen the article yet. I really liked the original Ferrous Dragons, the nickle dragon in particular was heavily-used. I'm kind of sad the nickle dragon is no longer CN, but the idea of all-lawful Ferrous Dragons is a sound one (and fits their original backstory better then their seemingly-picked-at-random alignments from before) , so I'll reserve judgement 'til then. Rock dragons? Igneous, Sedimentary and Metamorphic dragons don't exactly leap out at me, even if it does follow the "things pulled out of the earth" theme of the metallic, ferrous and gemstone dragons. Maybe you could ret-con mist, cloud, shadow and the like (as you said, it's all academic now).
All that aside, I'm really excited for the article. Good idea, guys...
Two independent ideas for rock dragons: Kelly Pederson's rock dragons, and Krishnath's Creating Rock Dragons on EN World. The former are all neutral on the good-evil axis, the latter are all chaotic.
To all of the principals involved in this article, thanks for the expanded information on the Ferrous "unique" dragon. I'm just wondering, did you get to the point of actually naming the "unique" leader of the rock dragons? I assume they would have their own leader type, though perhaps as chaos dragons they broke the mold in that case. Also, did you settle on the types of rock? If nothing else, it might be an interesting "historical footnote" if someone wanted to use them as extinct forms of dragonkind or such.
Two independent ideas for rock dragons: Kelly Pederson's rock dragons, and Krishnath's Creating Rock Dragons on EN World. The former are all neutral on the good-evil axis, the latter are all chaotic.
To all of the principals involved in this article, thanks for the expanded information on the Ferrous "unique" dragon. I'm just wondering, did you get to the point of actually naming the "unique" leader of the rock dragons? I assume they would have their own leader type, though perhaps as chaos dragons they broke the mold in that case. Also, did you settle on the types of rock? If nothing else, it might be an interesting "historical footnote" if someone wanted to use them as extinct forms of dragonkind or such.
I don't believe we ever got that far. Krishnath did indeed provide the idea for the rock dragons, and the thread RavinRay linked to above links to the (now abandoned) work in progress. The types we had decided on included basalt, granite, pyrite, slate, and sulphur.
Since rock dragons never made it into the article — and therefore aren't WotC property — what are the odds that they might reappear for Pathfinder or a Gamemastery module?
i'm not a betting man, so i won't hazard a guess. :)
The best out of all the dragons is the cobalt dragon, in my humble opinion... Plus they are the rumored progentiors of the kobold race, which is humorous.
The authors picked up on the derivation of the word "cobalt" from "kobold": cobalt is derived from the German kobalt, from kobold meaning "goblin". And the blue color is of course from cobalt ionization (hence "cobalt blue").
yep, that was something we added to the original concept. :) yay wikipedia! in fact, we used wikipedia extensively for little ideas on this article.
I'm just in the process of reading the article on ferrous dragons. I lost my father shortly before the announcement of the cancellation of Dragon, and out of grief I couldn't bring myself to open this issue until after the next issue arrived. I am enjoying the article.
I don't have the original article on heavy metal dragons. It looks like my old subscription to Dragon ended around issue 140, which might be around the time I went to get my second master's degree, or maybe when I entered my first Ph.D. program. Either way issue 170 came during my subscription hiatus. Did the original article refer to the group of dragons as ferrous dragon? Since I'm something of a purist, the label bothers me. Of the metallic dragons included in the article, only the iron dragon is actually ferrous. (The steel dragon, which I've seen elswhere, would be the only other ferrous dragon.)
Is there any chance you might produce a set of statistics for the king of ferrous dragons, perhaps similar to the early 3.0 non-divine statistics that appear in Dragon 272 for Bahamut and Tiamat?
Did the original article refer to the group of dragons as ferrous dragon? Since I'm something of a purist, the label bothers me. Of the metallic dragons included in the article, only the iron dragon is actually ferrous. (The steel dragon, which I've seen elswhere, would be the only other ferrous dragon.)
Yes, the original article referred to them as "ferrous" IIRC. In the real world iron and nickel are the two iron-group elements, while steel is an alloy of iron and carbon. (This probably explains why the steel dragon can be LN/LG; it is a metallic dragon with traces of ferrous dragon ancestry.) If my geologist side is feeling particularly ornery, I'd be as miffed as you. In a parallel development, the five original metallic dragons are all named after the gold group of elements (gold, silver, copper) or alloys of these (bronze and brass being alloys of copper with other metals). The fanboy side of me, though, would simply just let the matter drop.
I'll just but in and say that the article was great, guys! I really liked the cobalt dragon above the others.
I love your monster articles and I look forward to the chess monsters one coming in 358.