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I know it's not going to work. I don't care.
They can go jump in a lake.
It won't kill D&D.
I'm tired of getting jacked around.
I won't give them my money until they quit jacking me around.
When people jack me around, I say, "screw YOU guys, I'm going home."
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's not that they cancelled Dragon and Dungeon (well, okay, maybe a bit). It's the whole stance of 'I'm a major corporation and I can do whatever the f$!# I want' that pisses me off. I don't like being played by anybody, ESPECIALLY someone that has the nerve to take something away from me that I have enjoyed for years. It's the spirit of the act, not the act itself that I can't abide.
I will not bend, ya hear me?!
Again, wow. Lots of throat-showing on a thread entitled Boycott. If people want to roll over on this, that's fine, but I certainly won't. WotC will have to work extra hard to get my gaming dollars.Yeah, that's what I'm all about, rolling over and throat-showing. Why don't you describe how exactly this boycott is going to play out in the magical world you inhabit. Something like this:
Step 1: Boycott
Step 2: WotC is sad
Step 3: Return of Dragon and DungeonLike I said, I can respect not wanting to purchase WotC products after this, I can respect being angry. But I'm not that angry, and self-righteous comments such as the above just piss me off in favor of WotC.
Self righteous? How so? You are the one who put up that step by step, not me. If you want to huggle WotC until the cows come home, that's your call. Just don't expect me to. Furthermore, if you scroll up, or even interpret my previous post you'll see I AM probably going to buy the occasional WotC product- they are just going to have to be better than anything I've seen them put out to date or somehow vital to my game. Finally, I NEVER mentioned your name in the previous post- why are you taking it personally?
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Again, wow. Lots of throat-showing on a thread entitled Boycott. If people want to roll over on this, that's fine, but I certainly won't. WotC will have to work extra hard to get my gaming dollars.Yeah, that's what I'm all about, rolling over and throat-showing. Why don't you describe how exactly this boycott is going to play out in the magical world you inhabit. Something like this:
Step 1: Boycott
Step 2: WotC is sad
Step 3: Return of Dragon and DungeonLike I said, I can respect not wanting to purchase WotC products after this, I can respect being angry. But I'm not that angry, and self-righteous comments such as the above just piss me off in favor of WotC.
It's not that people like myself, Tensor and Heathansson think that we're magically going to be able to bring these publications back. I don't know about the others, but for me it's about doing as much damage as possible. You can call it petty, you can call it vengeful, you can call it self-righteous, or anything you want. I merely think of it as payback for what Wizards of the Cost and Hasblow did to one of the few things that keep me from ending myself: D&D.
I am inclined to boycott WoTC after this, but for me that doesn't really mean much, regardless. I can't afford $30 hardback gaming books on a regular basis, though I do buy the miniatures now and then. I already spend most of my gaming budget on Paizo materials, regardless. I guess I'll just keep doing that, then. But, for me, if a WoTC product comes out and it's written by Paizo staffers or contributors, I will want to pick it up. You gotta take care of your own.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Again, wow. Lots of throat-showing on a thread entitled Boycott. If people want to roll over on this, that's fine, but I certainly won't. WotC will have to work extra hard to get my gaming dollars.
Self righteous? How so? You are the one who put up that step by step, not me. If you want to huggle WotC until the cows come home, that's your call. Just don't expect me to. Furthermore, if you scroll up, or even interpret my previous post you'll see I AM probably going to buy the occasional WotC product- they are just going to have to be better than anything I've seen them put out to date or somehow vital to my game. Finally, I NEVER mentioned your name in the previous post- why are you taking it personally?
Maybe I misinterperted the above bolded language, but it seems very with-us-or-against-us, an attitude to which I take offense. The implication I took away is that either a person supports a boycott or wants to "huggle WotC until the cows come home."
It's not that people like myself, Tensor and Heathansson think that we're magically going to be able to bring these publications back. I don't know about the others, but for me it's about doing as much damage as possible. You can call it petty, you can call it vengeful, you can call it self-righteous, or anything you want. I merely think of it as payback for what Wizards of the Cost and Hasblow did to one of the few things that keep me from ending myself: D&D.Again, wow. Lots of throat-showing on a thread entitled Boycott. If people want to roll over on this, that's fine, but I certainly won't. WotC will have to work extra hard to get my gaming dollars.Yeah, that's what I'm all about, rolling over and throat-showing. Why don't you describe how exactly this boycott is going to play out in the magical world you inhabit. Something like this:
Step 1: Boycott
Step 2: WotC is sad
Step 3: Return of Dragon and DungeonLike I said, I can respect not wanting to purchase WotC products after this, I can respect being angry. But I'm not that angry, and self-righteous comments such as the above just piss me off in favor of WotC.
Huzzah on that one.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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It's not that people like myself, Tensor and Heathansson think that we're magically going to be able to bring these publications back. I don't know about the others, but for me it's about doing as much damage as possible. You can call it petty, you can call it vengeful, you can call it self-righteous, or anything you want. I merely think of it as payback for what Wizards of the Cost and Hasblow did to one of the few things that keep me from ending myself: D&D.
And I respect that, I just get pissed when I'm effectively called a coward for not participating.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's not that they cancelled Dragon and Dungeon (well, okay, maybe a bit). It's the whole stance of 'I'm a major corporation and I can do whatever the f~%@ I want' that pisses me off. I don't like being played by anybody, ESPECIALLY someone that has the nerve to take something away from me that I have enjoyed for years. It's the spirit of the act, not the act itself that I can't abide.
I'm just curious here, Shiny, when did you first start playing D&D?
Sebastian, you are no coward. I have seen enough to know that. ~shrugs~ Just let most of us cool off, then we will be more civil after that.
And I respect that, I just get pissed when I'm effectively called a coward for not participating.
It's not that people like myself, Tensor and Heathansson think that we're magically going to be able to bring these publications back. I don't know about the others, but for me it's about doing as much damage as possible. You can call it petty, you can call it vengeful, you can call it self-righteous, or anything you want. I merely think of it as payback for what Wizards of the Cost and Hasblow did to one of the few things that keep me from ending myself: D&D.
Sebastian- you ARE participating! Look at the italicized words next to your name. Not just a subscriber, but a CHARTER subscriber! You've already said you would rather people get the word out about Paizo than leave a bag of flaming dog poop at the front door WotC- if you get even ONE person onto the Paizo bandwagon, that's more than enough for me. I guess that means I'm on dog poop patrol.
If you take a look at the bottom of that page you linked, it lists a few boycotts of major corporations. One of them reduced Nestle's profit margin by a whopping 3%. Another one got a company to stop selling softcore porn mags in all of its stores (except the ones where THEY SOLD THE MOST MAGAZINES). Yet another got Philip Morris worked up enough to donate a couple million bucks to charity (which basically says "Here's some money. Now go away.").
The last truly remarkable boycott that worked was the Boston Tea Party, and even that only served to kick off a WAR. That's not what we want here. Let's keep it civil.
Actually I did. (Edit: That is to say I went back and read more after posting) Elsewhere on the page they said that a 3-5% margin is a success, believe it or not.
We have vastly different opinions on what a succesful boycott is. To me, a succesfful boycott brings about change. To you it appears that unless every demand you might have is met, then the boycott is an utter failure. I disagree. We all compromise on many things in our lives. Maybe in this case we don't get Dragon and Dungeon back, but we do bend WOTC's ear enough that we feel like we regain some ownership over our hobby again. I'm guessing you would say we'd failed, but I'd call that a success. From what I read on Ethical Consumer the majority would side with me.
The long and short is that I'm willing to at least TRY.
For my part, the public indignation would, in hope, lead to augmented approach by the company in dealing with our mainstays such as Dungeon and Dragon. The fact that they'd feel our wrath is just a free perk.
let most of us cool off, then we will be more civil after that.
I would have thought these boards would be cooling down too...but I'm afraid the demagoging (if that is a word) will continue (excusingly or not) for at least a while longer
here is from the "players Unite" thread, for anyone who missed it...
Guys,
I can definitely understand the emotions in this thread. Dragon and Dungeon have been an important part of many of our lives for a long time, and it's understandable that people are upset by this development.
That said, I feel it's my responsibility as publisher to point out that Wizards of the Coast has really been a good partner for the last five years. We had to get every single issue of the magazine approved by members of their business and design staff, and I can count on one hand the number of times we had to make significant changes to our material to satisfy their needs. They could have been much more hard-assed than they were, and I appreciate that very much.
I also appreciate that when they told us about their decision, they were also willing to extend Paizo's license several months in order that the Savage Tide Adventure Path reach its natural conclusion in Dungeon #150.
The folks on the design side at WotC are long-time gamers, and I'd like to hope that their connection to Dragon and Dungeon was as strong as that shown by many posters on this thread. Even some of their business folks play the game regularly. These are not black-hat-wearing villains, but good people. Many employees over there got their start on these magazines. Many of them are our friends.
So it's disturbing to hear readers issuing threats of physical violence and the like against Wizards, Renton, etc. Again, I really do appreciate all of the support our readers have graciously shown us since this announcement hit, but these messageboards have always been a place for rational, friendly discussion. I can appreciate that some of you aren't feeling very friendly right now, but I'd like to ask that people attempt to be civil here on Paizo.com.
Thanks,
Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC
If you take a look at the bottom of that page you linked, it lists a few boycotts of major corporations. One of them reduced Nestle's profit margin by a whopping 3%. Another one got a company to stop selling softcore porn mags in all of its stores (except the ones where THEY SOLD THE MOST MAGAZINES). Yet another got Philip Morris worked up enough to donate a couple million bucks to charity (which basically says "Here's some money. Now go away.").
The last truly remarkable boycott that worked was the Boston Tea Party, and even that only served to kick off a WAR. That's not what we want here. Let's keep it civil.
Actually I did. (Edit: That is to say I went back and read more after posting) Elsewhere on the page they said that a 3-5% margin is a success, believe it or not.
We have vastly different opinions on what a succesful boycott is. To me, a succesfful boycott brings about change. To you it appears that unless every demand you might have is met, then the boycott is an utter failure. I disagree. We all compromise on many things in our lives. Maybe in this case we don't get Dragon and Dungeon back, but we do bend WOTC's ear enough that we feel like we regain some ownership over our hobby again. I'm guessing you would say we'd failed, but I'd call that a success. From what I read on Ethical Consumer the majority would side with me.
The long and short is that I'm willing to at least TRY.
Good can come from such exercises. I don't know why the potential for it is being completely overlooked in everyone's Ragnarokian result models.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sorry FreeholdDM, looks like I got more worked up than I should've.
Good can come from such exercises. I don't know why the potential for it is being completely overlooked in everyone's Ragnarokian result models.
For me, it's just hard to imagine what good could come from a boycott. I can't see how it will bring back Dragon or Dungeon and I can't see how it will influence WotC's decision making process. Seriously, they're stock in trade is outraged fans. Magic fans swore off the company when they changed the card frame back in 04(?). I'm sure fans swore off the company when 3e came out. I'm sure many many more will do the same when 4e is announced.
Plus, as has been pointed out by Vigil, the upcoming products are written largely by Paizo staffers and regulars; I can't see what message boycotting those products sends to WotC.
Sorry FreeholdDM, looks like I got more worked up than I should've.
It's cool- we're all quite upset over this and emotions are running hot. Praise Paizo and pass the ammo.
Good can come from such exercises. I don't know why the potential for it is being completely overlooked in everyone's Ragnarokian result models.For me, it's just hard to imagine what good could come from a boycott. I can't see how it will bring back Dragon or Dungeon and I can't see how it will influence WotC's decision making process. Seriously, they're stock in trade is outraged fans. Magic fans swore off the company when they changed the card frame back in 04(?). I'm sure fans swore off the company when 3e came out. I'm sure many many more will do the same when 4e is announced.
Plus, as has been pointed out by Vigil, the upcoming products are written largely by Paizo staffers and regulars; I can't see what message boycotting those products sends to WotC.
Hrm, okay. I can see my comments way back when I signed up on the message boards coming back at me. Just as when I said killing off/boycotting Eberron won't bring Greyhawk back, I guess it's true that a mass boycott of WotC won't automatically bring Dragon or Dungeon back- but it is indeed worth it to do it to give them a head count on the new generation of outraged fans they've created.
The more regular contributors are going to get jabbed by, what I predict to be, the lack of profits rolling in when the magazines become DLs, if they even continue on in any form.
No one here wants to hurt Nick Logue, except Nick Logue. (He's kinky that way.)
First off, and I always say this, I'd look a little higher up, at Hasbro, before I keep throwing out blanket statements about WOTC. I don't know any more than anyone else here, but I could easily see a scenario where WOTC says, "hey, lets try an online pay for content mode that incorporates some of this virtual tabletop stuff and new articles," and Hasbro says, "yeah, run with it," and then as we get closer to launch, Hasbro says, "oh, by the way, yank that license from Paizo so we don't have any competition on the online article side . . . talk to you later, we'll do lunch."
There was an article in PC Gamer a few years back, where they talked to a big wig at Hasbro (not WOTC) about the Dungeons and Dragons license in regards to video games. He said that Hasbro view Dungeons and Dragons as a brand, not as a specific game, and that their goal was to grow the brand, even if it meant moving away from RPGs and tabletop gaming.
As Sebastian points out, I don't know that boycotting WOTC will help. It may just convince Hasbro to kill the "tabletop" form of D&D once and for all and focus on the profit margins on the CCGs and CMGs.
Does this mean we shouldn't do anything? I'm not advocating that. Make sure you buy quality stuff, not just anything that comes out. Make sure you support 3rd party people like Paizo if you like their stuff. And definately write respectful letters to people at WOTC and Hasbro telling them what went wrong here and why you are upset.
I'm not telling anyone that they shouldn't boycott or do what they feel they should, I just wanted to detail what I think is moving behind the scenes. Even with my suppositions above, my drive to pick up new minis or Dungeon Tiles that I was eyeing a few days ago has pretty much died. But on the other hand, I could pick up the Advanced Bestiary by Green Ronin or get caught up on some DL products from MWPs, especially the War of the Lance and Legend of the Twins Sourcebooks.
I'm not going to boycott WOTC, except of course that what little disposable cash I have will now probably be completely eaten by Paizo, seeing as how the Pathfinder subscription rate is a wee more expensive.
I'm certainly not going to by any more of the Forgotten Barrow series, I was disappointed with the one module. I may pick up Expedition to the Demon Web Pits, though.
For me, boycotting WotC products isn't about getting Dragon back - I know that's impossible. I'm also not trying to cause losses out of spite - of course they'll never notice us in terms of money. What I'm hoping is that, just maybe, they'll have a little more respect for us when this is all over.
And by the way, what's a Pathfinder "charter" subscriber? Someone who's already been suckered into paying without any idea what it'll be like?
And by the way, what's a Pathfinder "charter" subscriber? Someone who's already been suckered into paying without any idea what it'll be like?
Yes, you could put it like that. I choose to think of it as liking the past products of Messers Mona, Jacobs, Logue, Bauer, Greer, et al enough to buy new product sight unseen.
It's going to be harder to drop a 3ply adventure into an existing campaign and the variety multi-level funpak feel will be missed, but I'll subscribe to Pathfinder the minute I can find my wallet. I trust each of the writers involved and Paizo for nothing less than excellence.
For me, boycotting WotC products isn't about getting Dragon back - I know that's impossible. I'm also not trying to cause losses out of spite - of course they'll never notice us in terms of money. What I'm hoping is that, just maybe, they'll have a little more respect for us when this is all over.
And by the way, what's a Pathfinder "charter" subscriber? Someone who's already been suckered into paying without any idea what it'll be like?
~laughter~ I think that about sums it up, Gabriel. ~grins and chuckles a bit more about your comment~ Of course, with all the talent that is onboard, I do not think that a subscription is a suckers bet.
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A boycott would be fruitless to everyone concerned. Personally, I LIKE the material WotC puts out. I am a little shocked to hear the magazines are both dying (besides the fact that I thought they were doing quite well financially), but WotC doesn't make the magazines anyway, Paizo does. The talented, dedicated folks at Paizo are all still at work, and I'm 100% certain _Pathfinder_ will be awesome; I've just subscribed to it month-by-month, and hope it will become an annual subscription once it gets its feet. Also, don't forget, some of the best products WotC puts out are WRITTEN BY PAIZO STAFFERS...
Personally, I don't own Eb or FR. I have about 600 sweet looking figures that predate the mini craze and I still like to paint (hence am less tempted than others to pick up booster packs, though I have a few).
I've read Eberron, browsed their adventures, and although I like the mystery aspect, I would miss the gritty process of humping gold or walking every time a troll eats our horses.
Monte is a little whacked for me, though I do like CbtS, and FR seems attractive, BUT
not so if Paizo can offer an alternative that is planned out by (1) real gamers,(2) people with life experience, and (3) professionals.
I'll be buying all Greyhawk products from WotC because I like GH and seeing it sell may help Paizo get a license to handle that world, other than that.... nada.
If you want to get the attention of WoTC you can try putting up a thread on their boards. They'll probably shut you down in a blink, but it'll get their attention.
Last I checked, they're not responding to posts over there.
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For me, boycotting WotC products isn't about getting Dragon back - I know that's impossible. I'm also not trying to cause losses out of spite - of course they'll never notice us in terms of money. What I'm hoping is that, just maybe, they'll have a little more respect for us when this is all over.
I find that a petition is much more reasonable way to attain that than a boycott.
And by the way, what's a Pathfinder "charter" subscriber? Someone who's already been suckered into paying without any idea what it'll be like?
Well, considering that that we do know A) that it's a monthly product dedicated to offering a complete adventure path (like CS, AoW or ST) per six issues, B) will include spiffy extras (analogous to Wormfood and Savage Tidings) and setting expansions (like the "Backdrop" articles), C) is authored by the same people who brought us previous adventures in Dungeon and articles in Dragon, and D) brought to us by a quality publisher... I think those of us that have taken the leap of faith and become charter subscribers to Pathfinder have a idea of what we're getting in for.
I'm not boycotting. I'm not gonna let this ruin my D&D games.
I'll just go with the flow. I'm sure they'll pass off the license to another company. And if they don't, we'll still have other great Paizo products coming in.
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They are not only not responding to posts at WotC, they are now shutting down any and all threads which even indirectly discuss the current situation. A couple of hours ago there were several threads criticizing or ambivalent about the license cancellation, and now there's nothing. Great PR move, Wiz O; censorship is definitely going to win the hearts and minds of those of us skeptical about the change. Welcome to Hasbrobia... oh, wait, Hasbro IS based in Beijing, isn't it?
Well, they haven't purged or even locked this thread which is up to 17 pages, so I think you may be a bit premature in your assessment of censorship.
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And by the way, what's a Pathfinder "charter" subscriber? Someone who's already been suckered into paying without any idea what it'll be like?
I wouldn't think of it as being suckered (those, like me, who have pre-purchased a subscription to an ephemeral, as-yet-unseen publication), but rather as having faith in the talents of a creative team we've come to trust will deliver the goods. I'm hedging my bets on past superior performance being indicative of a potential to exceed the standard.
I wouldn't think of it as being suckered (those, like me, who have pre-purchased a subscription to an ephemeral, as-yet-unseen publication), but rather as having faith in the talents of a creative team we've come to trust will deliver the goods. I'm hedging my bets on past superior performance being indicative of a potential to exceed the standard.
And by the way, what's a Pathfinder "charter" subscriber? Someone who's already been suckered into paying without any idea what it'll be like?
Agreed. This is NOT a sucker bet, but a somewhat more mature way to express your feelings on this great loss than screaming at the top of your lungs on a forum. Paizo has shown time and time again they have gamers best interest at heart. Man, am I parched from all that screamin'! ::reaches for another brew::
I find that a petition is much more reasonable way to attain that than a boycott.
Eh, I'll sign every petition I can find when I get back online after a few hours' sleep, and write some e-mails too. I'm going to do every little bit I can, not just the bare minimum.
Well, considering that that we do know A) that it's a monthly product dedicated to offering a complete adventure path (like CS, AoW or ST) per six issues, B) will include spiffy extras (analogous to Wormfood and Savage Tidings) and setting expansions (like the "Backdrop" articles), C) is authored by the same people who brought us previous adventures in Dungeon and articles in Dragon, and D) brought to us by a quality publisher... I think those of us that have taken the leap of faith and become charter subscribers to Pathfinder have a idea of what we're getting in for.
You're right, of course; we know Pathfinder will be good because it's basically the new Dungeon. I'm just bitter because that still leaves me without a reliable, quality substitute to WotC's hit-and-miss sourcebooks; what I'll really miss - and what I subscribed to - is Dragon.
I'm not boycotting. I'm not gonna let this ruin my D&D games.
I'll just go with the flow. I'm sure they'll pass off the license to another company. And if they don't, we'll still have other great Paizo products coming in.
They won't. The whole point of this move is that WotC think they can rake in loads of cash with online content they know would never sell if they didn't shut down the long-running, proven alternative.
I doubt boycott will work. I will do it anyway, on the personal level. Those who know me know that I am slow to anger and much slower to forgive. I mourn the death of FWotFC.
I don't mean to boycott Barnes and Noble, and I'd be nuts to boycott my Friendly Local Game Store.
But as I've already mentioned in another thread, I am old, and set in my ways. WOTC has screwed around with something I hold very dear; they have altered a tradition, and I don't like that.
I am disinclined to want to give them money if they're going to behave in this fashion.
I had that explained to me recently. But their divisions still have to show a profit, otherwise, why are they there? An insurance break?
If I had to guess, I would bet that D&D is a low margin, low revenue segment of WotC. I know everyone thinks WotC is run by suits who hate gamers, but I believe the only reason D&D continues is because there are still sufficient gamers in the company to keep it going. I would bet that D&D is probably seen as a way to bring people into other more profitable products, such as Magic or their minatures line. D&D is probably always just a bad quarter or two away from being discontinued, or, worse yet, pared back. Here are the scenarios I see if the D&D line starts to suffer:
1. It's killed. Period. There's no sense employing people to work on a product line that doesn't make much money or makes a very low amount of money, so the line is killed and people are put on other products. The game is not licensed out because they want to hold onto it in case the market improves in the future. I find this unlikely, because if they do kill D&D, the OGL will result in some new company taking over the product line. If this were to happen, hopefully paizo would be that company, but more realisticly, every gaming company would step up and we'd have 3-5 different versions of D&D (one made by Whitewolf, one by Paizo, etc). Granted, this scenario could also occur if 4e is a flop.
2. They out-license. This is the best scenario you could hope for. The key here though is that Paizo would need to be in shape to pick up the license. That's why supporting Paizo is so important. If D&D does fail at WotC, Paizo needs to be in solid shape to pick up the ball.
3. Dry up the line. Basically, if demand drops for D&D products, they reduce supply. This is the most likely scenario in my mind. What happens is that instead of failing altogether, the D&D line is scaled back. This might mean that we get poorer quality supplements or just fewer...
Okay, there's a lot of emotion flying around here, but if I could, I'd like to take a moment to ask a simple and honest question of someone who I respect as having some knowledge in this area.
Why do you think WotC pulled the liscence, Sebastian? I'm not trying to make a point or anything, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on the matter out of sheer curiosity. Same for Fatespinner. Considering that WotC has made no real effort to explain this move, I am greatly perplexed about their logic. Now, I know whatever you can give is idle speculation, but I get the feeling that it will be of a few degrees higher quality than the general background ranting (not that I think there's anything wrong with the ranting; I've done a bit myself!).
So, what are your thoughts about the intelligence or lack thereof on WotC part of this move, and why did they do it?
Personally, I hate the clandestine nature in which WotC conducts itself. If they told consumers a bit more about the thought processes they used, people might be more receptive to them. Instead, they seem to shoot themselves in the foot by keeping everything a secret.
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This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's not that they cancelled Dragon and Dungeon (well, okay, maybe a bit). It's the whole stance of 'I'm a major corporation and I can do whatever the f~%@ I want' that pisses me off. I don't like being played by anybody, ESPECIALLY someone that has the nerve to take something away from me that I have enjoyed for years. It's the spirit of the act, not the act itself that I can't abide.I'm just curious here, Shiny, when did you first start playing D&D?
I haven't been playing as long as some on these boards (I started about five years ago), but that doesn't mean I have any less of a right to be angry about this.
Why do you think WotC pulled the license, Sebastian?
I obviously can't answer for Sebastian, but I'll take a stab at it from my own perspective. I think the real solid money that WotC pulls in is from collectibles, not gaming rules stuff or adventures. Plastic miniatures, "Magic: The Gathering" cards, and "Yu-Gi-Oh" (whatever that is) seem to be the big cash cows; tabletop gaming is a quant, primitive distraction from the main business of selling endless sets of dolls ("minis") and trading cards. After all, each customer buys only one copy of each book or magazine. A collectibles customer will buy dozens of sets of stuff in order to get a "new" card or doll.
I might be totally wrong, but given that 2/3 of the "updates" on the WotC "Dungeons and Dragons" page deal with miniatures, not with D&D, I think I'm pretty close here. "Evil corporations" usually don't do things without financial motives that at least seem sound to them.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Why do you think WotC pulled the liscence, Sebastian? I'm not trying to make a point or anything, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on the matter out of sheer curiosity. Same for Fatespinner. Considering that WotC has made no real effort to explain this move, I am greatly perplexed about their logic. Now, I know whatever you can give is idle speculation, but I get the feeling that it will be of a few degrees higher quality than the general background ranting (not that I think there's anything wrong with the ranting; I've done a bit myself!).
So, what are your thoughts about the intelligence or lack thereof on WotC part of this move, and why did they do it?
I'm just blowing smoke here, but if I had to guess, I'd say 4e is the driving force. My best guess is that WotC is going to try and achieve a paradigm shift in the way rpgs are purchased and used when 4e comes out. One irony of this situation is that I bet their business model will look a lot like the one Paizo is using for Pathfinder.
What Pathfinder shows me is that Paizo understands that (i) the tail for their products is generally fairly short and (ii) electronic piracy is not the same for books as it is for video/magazines. As to the first point, most sales occur within the first month or so of a product launch, particularly so with periodicals like Dragon/Dungeon. The pirates have a difficult time obtaining a product in the first window of release, so the paying customer has an incentive to pony up the subscription fee to get the newest issue immediately before it grows stale. This is particularly true with something like the adventure path, which risks spoilers if not run as it emerges from Paizo.
As to the second point, books aren't like video and movies, anyone who has a backup pdf collection of their hardcover books will tell you that they are an inadequate substitute. Paizo is betting that the utility added by the pdf will supplement rather than replace the hard copy. The internet is allowing rpg companies to employ a model based on books and pdfs that will allow campaigns to be run over the internet and to take the pieces they want and leave the others behind. They've added a lot of functionality, plus an excellent avenue for word of mouth. If I come to your game and I have a single folder containing Paizo prestige classes, you are exposed to their work without having to peruse a 100+ page book.
Anyway, my rambling point is that the joint pdf/book model is the way of the future. 4e is going to be based on the same subscription model as Pathfinder, and like Pathfinder, it's going to throw in electronic bells and whistles to bring you in. Dragon/Dungeon will be the electronic bells and whistles, and may possibly be available for free on their website. WotC wants you to sign up for a subscription to 4e and are using Dragon/Dungeon as either the electronic element of that subscription or an additional element of that subscription that costs extra. Competing with the magazine for your subscription dollars is not something WotC wants to do. Furthermore, they probably perceive it as a better use of those well-established brands.
WotC has probably also analyzed their own web traffic and, I wouldn't be surprised if they realize that they get more hits on the site than are subscribers to Dragon/Dungeon. As the Paizo folks have mentioned, printing a magazine is an inefficient and costly endeavor, WotC figures their internet site gives them enough market presence that they no longer need the magazines on the shelves (note that although many many posters have stated that their first experience with the hobby was the magazines, this was in the pre-internet days). The point is that once they cut out the costs of printing, mailing, etc, they probably realized they could deliver the content at a much cheaper rate.
The other thing to keep in mind is that they may not charge, just as they don't charge for content that used to be in the Duelist, which was the magazine that used to cover Magic and has since been subsumed in WotC's free website. The current D&D website, if rebranded as Dragon (for players) and Dungeon (for DM's) could serve a similar function, providing a community for persons interested in the game and free content that draws you into purchasing additional WotC products (including things like their minatures line, which, rumor has it, will be more integrated into 4e).
Finally, note the other license that was pulled - eTools. In addition, they have been trying to recruit more online games people and have even formed a separate online games segment. This leads me to believe that WotC plans to launch some form of online platform for playing D&D. As everyone mentioned, they need to compete with MMORPG's, and having a platform for playing D&D online which is supported by WotC and fits naturally with their pdf publications could be a slam dunk.
Those are my thoeries. Here's the cliff notes version:
1. 4e will be subscription based like Pathfinder.
2. 4e will have a substantial online component.
3. WotC will continue to deliver free content over the internet but will use the Dragon and Dungeon brands to deliver that content, or, possibly charge a fee for such content.
I'm probably wrong on a lot of fronts, but I think WotC is a smart, savvy company that performs market research and is going to shake things up with 4e. That's not to say they can't or won't screw up *cough* Chainmail *cough* but that I think there is an intelligent plan driving this move and not malice towards their customers.
I have been gaming now for...22 years. A dang long time. in that time I have spent a lot of money on certain companies, only to find those companies go in direction I do not like. An example was TSR in the 90s or Palladium in the 90s. In both cases I left these companies behind. I suspect I am not alone in this behavior, gamers tend to flock to games that support them, are well written, are supported by the companies that make them, are innovative, and are interesting.
That being said, I did at one time subscribe to Dragon magazine, in 2001-2004, as I liked the content. I switched to dungeon partially because I thought that it was a superior product. This decision by WoTC and/or Paizo discourages me, mainly because I felt that Dungeon Magazine was consistently being written with the highest standards and that it's content was the best in years, if not ever. The fact that it will now change/disappear angers me. It would be one thing if the product were damaged, as the magazines have been at one time or another, but it is quite another thing to kill a magazine or product at it's height, at least in terms of quality.
This is bad business practice in terms of customer service. I am a customer, I want product X (that is Dungeon magazine), and now they say I cannot have it. I must say this makes me inclined to write the whole thing off and go play another game, one that support my vision, is interesting, and is well supported by the company(s) that produce it. I will look into the Pathfinder direction, although I must admit I was enjoying playing in the Greyhawk world, it was fun.
I will also note that this has nipped in the bud my desire to grow my collection of WoTC D&D figs, that I have been using for my AoW campaign.
We shall see what ideas they have for 4e. I personally agree with Monte Cook that as expectations of quality are so high, it will be very difficult for them to meet those expectations. We shall see, but this does not make me very amicable towards their new edition ideas.
I'm just blowing smoke here, but if I had to guess, I'd say 4e is the driving force.
I agree with a lot of your reasoning, but not the overall conclusion. I'll blow some smoke of my own, which is not even remotely backed up with anything but some tenuous links.
I think that this online content push may be a drive to push revenue with the same bump that you usually get from a new edition release. From the statement made at Winter Fantasy it seems that at least all of 2008 would be 4e free, and while I can't remember the exact words, I beleive the wording of when 4e would arrive was a bit cryptic, as if a change in editions may not be deliniated in the same manner as before.
Some of the rumors that floated last year about this digital initiative (which said nothing about Dungeon and Dragon going away) had to do with a pay model, exclusive online content, and a virtual table top (probably driven by sites like Fantasy Grounds and the like).
Monte Cook has pointed out that 4e really won't do well unless there is some kind of desire for it. It may be annecdotal, but I've seen very few that see 4th edition as a good idea at this juncture. As Monte Cook also pointed out, if 4th edition comes out and no one likes it, the OGL pretty much makes sure that people can just keep playing a supported version of 3.5 for as long as it takes for 4e to catch on, which would not be a good thing for WOTC.
Monte also points out that if 4e is a go any time soon, before there really is much consumer support for it, its likely becasue Hasbro has decided that its time for a bump in sales. I could be comepletely off on this, but it may be that this digital initiative is a way to keep Hasbro from pushing 4e out the door while still not alienating fans that would leave in droves if 4e comes out before they really feel like they "need" it.
All of this having been said, I think that WOTC really dropped the ball on the announcement here. The initial announcement more or less read, "Dungeon and Dragon Magazine are gone, and we may put some content on our web site at some indeterminate time in the future." I do think that they might have "spun" this better if the announcement had been more along the lines of, "Dungeon and Dragon Relaunch This Fall Online," and then explained the specifics of Paizo not having the license any more. The initial release really sounded like "yeah, we're gonna do something with online content sometime."
Again, this is just my thoughts on the subject, and I could really be way off myself.
Very interesting observations, Sebastian. I personally don't see the need for 4e; 2e was, by all accounts, bloated and unplayable without reems of houserules. 3.5e is not in that condition; rather, it is running quite smoothely, even with all the supplements and their power creep. Seems like a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I think a lot of people, myself included, will be more annoyed than anything at having to "change" libraries (buying all new books to replace what we already have), unless it immediately amazes all of us at how innovative and great it is. Which, as noted above, may be hard to do because expectations are so high. I predict the rollover from 3.5 to 4e will be slower than from 2e to 3.x. Then again... everyone ponied up for 3.5, and all it ammounted to was an extensive errata.
The other thing that WotC should look into (I have no idea if they have or not; if so, great, if not, that's their own stupid fault) is whether their most loyal fanbase actually wants change. Somewhere on this tangled mess of threads in this new section, someone made the Coca-cola analogy; what they thought of as smart and innovative backfired, because people loved the tradition.
Of cours, it could also be that the most loyal fanbase is not the most profitable one, which I would consider sad and strange. In that case, my gut reaction would be to say that D&D is being mismanaged and poorly advertised when it comes to indoctrinating new players into what D&D "is."
At the same time, I had an interesting thought about Greyhawk. Many people woefully lament its downfall, and some can't seem to get past it. To newer gamers, however, Greyhawk is just something that "was," like 1e and 2e. They/we/I look back and think, "Hunh. So that's what D&D was like back then." But, D&D continues to live on, largely unaltered (and where it has undergone major alterations, it's generally for the better) for the next generation. There will probably come a day when the Realms are abandoned and eventually Eberron, too, will be left behind for something else. That doesn't necessarily spell the doom of D&D. Neither does the fall of Greyhawk. Neither do the demises of Dungeon and Dragon magazines, painful as they may be.
None of these thoughts are really related to what you wrote, at all, Sebastian, as I'm sure you know by now. They're just further musings as I cool and begin to truly ponder this situation, rather than just react instinctively to it.
At the same time, I'll voice one last thought about the proposed boycott. I'm making no comments on the wisdom of pursuing such a course of action, because I haven't made up my mind yet. No, this comment is about the ability of the Paizonian populace to force real change in WotC.
"Can't" never did anything.
EDIT- Okay, there's a bit more, forgot to write this earlier in the post. WotC really needs to stop trying to be so secretive with its plans. I think that hurts them as much as anything. In the absence of information, rumors run wild, and customers are left bewildered at many of the company's decisions. Also, it alienates people and makes them feel like their supplier doesn't care about them, which is bad for business. If they opened up a bit more, people would feel more connected, understand what the corporate logic was, and might be more accepting of WotC's choices, as well as feeling more "included" and "in control."
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Instead of Boycotting WOTC We should be supporting pathfinder. Why? It's not dungeon or dragon, you say? Over the last 2 years I've heard nothing but improvements for dungeon and I respect the authors and the editors. What made the magazines So good? Was it WoTC? I don't think so. I'm sure it was Paizo and them taking into account of us. They listen and they take what we say and publish it. They read our comments and complaints and make a better product out of it. With having their own product such as Pathfinder to replace Dungeon and Dragon, they have more room to experiment. It will be the same people we know and loved about Dungeon and Dragon. So I say Support the ones who made Dungeon and Dragon what it became in the last 5 years and hope they continue to bring what we love about the game to life.
Chief Technical Officer
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I just went and spoke to my local game-store-guy who says he has known Lisa for many, many years.
He said that on the Distributor’s Forum, which I guess is a message board like this one for people who own game stores, a Paizo representative announced their intention to discontinue the WotC Dragon/Dungeon license a few months ago and gave them a chance to ask questions.
Hearsay is that Paizo could not afford to keep the license or negotiate the price down, and with printing costs high and advertising is thin -- it's over.
Everything you report is completely incorrect.
First of all, I know of no such "Distributor’s Forum," although there are a few industry mailing lists Lisa occasionally posts on.
Second, as per our contract with Wizards, we only shared this information early with the few business partners who absolutely had to know early. That includes our paper vendor, our magazine printer, and our magazine distributor, and almost nobody else. Even our largest distributors found out no more than a few days before you did. Believe me, if we had told a bunch of retailers "a few months ago," you'd have heard something about it before this week. (Perhaps somebody is thinking about Wizards' survey about their new online venture?)
Most importantly, Dragon and Dungeon are running profitably and required no significant business changes in future to continue doing so. Yes, paper costs have been going up, but we covered that by raising the newsstand price a buck a while back. (We didn't even raise the subscription price.)
We'd have happily continued publishing both magazines, but Wizards had other ideas for the the properties that they own.
Finally, on another note, I'd like you all to consider the entire industry when you talk about boycotting someone. I don't know if an organized boycott could substantially hurt Wizards or not—I doubt it. But I do know that it can hurt retailers, and distributors; they work on slim margins as they are. A boycott isn't just bad for one company—it's bad for the whole industry.
If you want to *help* our industry, continue to reward the system by purchasing the products that interest you. When those products succeed, they'll be followed by more products like them, and that's all good for everybody.