Um, why wouldn't they?
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I will be disappointed if this obnoxious opening post actually gets a Paizo response while questions with 20 FAQ's go ignored.
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Instant enemy, ha ha harrr, I sure hate that spell.
So the ranger has to put in years of training and focus to get a favored enemy. They have to learn the weaknesses of their specific type of quarry, and as such are on bonuses to a lot of different checks concerning that foe.
And then pf tries to hand out a new spell, that allows them to just move their favored enemy around, to anything. Even if it is so far removed from their actual favored enemy, i.e. your favored enemy is oozes, but you want it against goblins.
*Angry laughter*
@3.5 Loyalist: Ummm... "It's magic"? ...I think Instant Enemy is a fine spell. Haven't played a ranger and haven't really seen much use of it, but it seems fine to me :)
I do get the reason why he's not liking the spell, RP reasons and all.
Doesn't make me want to ban it from the Ranger my friend is playing, though.
So, Instant Enemy and Bane weapons. Do they work together or not?
Your question is misleading.
A human bane weapon will apply its bane properties against a human, regardless of what favore enemies you have, kind of Instant Enemy you just fired up.
If you have Favored Enemy (Elves) +6, wield a human bane sword, and use Instant Enemy to treat that pesky human you are fighting as an elf, you'll get to treat that human as an elf for all your Favored Enemy abilities, while your sword still is hitting a human, and employs its bane ability.
However, if you have favored Enemy (Fey), and are wielding cold iron Feybane axe, you will not activate its bane property by using Instant Enemy on a human, for treating the enemy as Fey.
Same for holy, disrupting, and the like.
In a nutshell, You treat your Instant Enemy as if it were the Favored Enemy you designate. Your Equipment doesn't. Your Spells don't, either, so no casting Animal Growth on a party member you just are treating as if she were an animal.
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The spell alters one of the main abilities of the ranger. It is a part of who they are, what they have learned and know, and defines what they are good against, and what they are not specialised against by what is left out (take goblins, don't take oozes. Take demons, don't take animals). It took them a while to get their favored, it took a level or it's a part of their backstory (trolls killed my friends!) and what they grew up learning to fight and defeat (I trained for years to get revenge upon the elves). How does the spell grant all the knowledge and specialised skill behind the favored enemy ability, when the favored is already chosen and a part of the character?
I get people like it, I get it is convenient, I get it is useful--hold on, I'll just swap my favored over. Your char is an undead hunter, it is a part of who they are, and you are just going to swap that over to boggards, or animals, or dragons? What the...
Imagine a spell moving around a fighter's bonus feats, so they could take feats more appropriate to the current situation? Or changing their bonuses with specific weapon groups around, when their favourite gets lost/broken/melted.
I understand 3.5 Loyalist's concern about the "instant enemy" spell. I also get the "it's magic, duh" response. My own concern is whether the spell is balanced. There have certainly been enough arguments on that subject on these boards...
As far as bane weapons go, my take on them is that they work only on their "hard-coded" target type and are not affected at all by the instant enemy spell. Whether instant enemy is overpowered or not, I think many who defend the spell would agree that adding bane weapon's effect would push it into the overpowered range.
I certainly won't allow it in my campaigns.
I agree, Instant Enemy does not change the weapon's bane type. It only affects the way the Ranger uses his Favored enemy. The creature's type does not change, only the way the Ranger views it does.
Greg
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School enchantment; Level ranger 3
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature that is not your favored enemy.
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration. Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes.
Greg
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The spell alters one of the main abilities of the ranger. It is a part of who they are, what they have learned and know, and defines what they are good against, and what they are not specialised against by what is left out (take goblins, don't take oozes. Take demons, don't take animals). It took them a while to get their favored, it took a level or it's a part of their backstory (trolls killed my friends!) and what they grew up learning to fight and defeat (I trained for years to get revenge upon the elves). How does the spell grant all the knowledge and specialised skill behind the favored enemy ability, when the favored is already chosen and a part of the character?
It's a 3rd level Ranger spell. You can use it once/day at 11th level...3 times if you have a ranger with Wisdom 18. You max at 3 times per day at levels 19-20...again adding +1-3 more if you memorize no other 3rd level spells. And it's only good for one enemy per casting. Once that enemy dies you'll need to cast it again to apply to the next. I don't really see the complaint here? It isn't like it allows you to just swap FEs. It's a spell...and one of the Ranger's most powerful spells at that!
I get people like it, I get it is convenient, I get it is useful--hold on, I'll just swap my favored over. Your char is an undead hunter, it is a part of who they are, and you are just going to swap that over to boggards, or animals, or dragons? What the...
How is that any less believable or workable than an 11th level sorcerer using all his 5th level spell slots to cast Cone of Cold against a Fire Giant? Use what you have to work with. I know from experience that having a ranger with FE (orc) +6 and only seeing 1 orc in three game sessions is pretty crappy. I'd rather be able to use that ability by burning one of my most powerful spells.
Imagine a spell moving around a fighter's bonus feats, so they could take feats more appropriate to the current situation? Or changing their bonuses with specific weapon groups around, when their favourite gets lost/broken/melted.
So what if a spell DID allow a fighter to swap a bonus feat for a couple of minutes? It won't happen very often because the caster isn't going to cast it every combat. And the fighter asks for it every combat, if I were playing the caster, I'd tell the fighter to swap the feat out for good at the next level divisible by 4. And what's the harm in a fighter having a spell cast on him that allows him to add his weapon group bonus if his favorite sword gets broken? It isn't like it's permanent. It's a temporary adjustment...
A cone of cold does not alter a pc's special abilities, and what they are good/weak against based on their own choices.
When you are up to orc +6, you have other favoured enemies.
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A cone of cold does not alter a pc's special abilities, and what they are good/weak against based on their own choices.
When you are up to orc +6, you have other favoured enemies.
But that's one of the things that Magic can do... Alter "reality" (seems silly saying that as it pertains to a fantasy game).
Do you have a problem with Dominate Person, Suggestion or other mind affecting spells?
Your argument can be applied equally to a character who spends his whole life adventuring with and risking his life for his companions. Only to fail a WILL save and suddenly use all of his abilities against them.
That just doesn't seem like something my character would do - but my GM would just laugh maniacally if I tried lodging that as a complaint.
Bottom line is you don't have to like the spell - but if you can't figure out a way to RP the effects you're not really putting much effort into it.
As Greg said.
Can't get much more explicit than "for all purposes."
You have FE: Human and a human bane weapon; you encounter a dragon and cast Instant Enemy on him to treat him as a human, you get the benefit of bane.
As Greg said.
Can't get much more explicit than "for all purposes."
You have FE: Human and a human bane weapon; you encounter a dragon and cast Instant Enemy on him to treat him as a human, you get the benefit of bane.
Do your partymembers? No?
Why would it effect your weapon?
The keyword in that sentence is"you" rather than "all purposes"
-James
This.
It's fairly obvious, for example, that the Dragon is not subject to dominate person because a ranger with favored enemy:human has cast instant enemy.
Anything the ranger can do to his favored enemy is on the table - not the ranger's stuff.
A cone of cold does not alter a pc's special abilities, and what they are good/weak against based on their own choices.
When you are up to orc +6, you have other favoured enemies.
But that's one of the things that Magic can do... Alter "reality" (seems silly saying that as it pertains to a fantasy game).
Do you have a problem with Dominate Person, Suggestion or other mind affecting spells?
Your argument can be applied equally to a character who spends his whole life adventuring with and risking his life for his companions. Only to fail a WILL save and suddenly use all of his abilities against them.
That just doesn't seem like something my character would do - but my GM would just laugh maniacally if I tried lodging that as a complaint.
Bottom line is you don't have to like the spell - but if you can't figure out a way to RP the effects you're not really putting much effort into it.
You are stretching, but it is understandable. Suggestion, dominate person and mind affecting abilities do not change your character's abilities on the fly, they change who they view as friend or foe, and how they are going to act. You lose control for a while. It is not a spell to cheesily alter your favoured enemy to something perfectly suitable, after your character has specifically trained to be good against something else.
Through mind affecting the abilities of the character do not change, what abilities they have earned and learned through their class levels do not change.
I unfortunately stick by the old idea, that if a ranger wants more favoured enemies, they should go get some more levels. Develop as a ranger that can take more favoured enemies by striving, leveling and growing; and not move their favoured round via a spell as need be.
Bane weapons are pretty nice. A favourite piece of loot in my games.
And that' why Resist Energy, which targets a person, not an object, does not affect your worn/wielded gear.
Oh, wait...it does...
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Resist Energy is not a divination.
When you cast Levitate and let go of your sword, does it float?
No. Clearly there is a difference between overall defensive spells and divinations, and other spells. Worn gear falls under the 'attended objects' rules and is specifically included in such rules (i.e. such objects only have to make a save if you fail one, and benefit from protective spells upon you.)
Spells that effect your equipment are noted that they do so...and Instant Enemy says nothing about your equipment.
==Aelryinth
** spoiler omitted ** Since the spell reads "you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes", I would say, Yes, it would apply. :PGreg
Lets go by that literal logic. Lets say your favored enemy is "Human". and you're hitting a Human.
You hit the Human with your Undead Bane sword. Your Ranger bonuses kick in as normal but the bane effect of that sword would not come into play because the ranger abilities are all about your skills, not your equipment.
The Favored Enemy skill gained through "Instant Enemy" doesn't work any different from the standard.
So no, in the example of the OP the bane effect of the sword would not kick in. The Ranger bonus to damage would.
And I agree that it would not change the weapon's bane target type. I was responding to the post above mine about racial trait hatred.
Instant Enemy does not apply to bane.
Greg
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*sigh* After trying to claim Bane, why stop there?
Hey, I got a holy weapon... shouldn't I get the added bonus by treating my opponent as if it were an evil outsider?
Oh, look, I got Pally levels, as well... sure I can smite that enemy I treat as an 'Evil Outsider', can't I?
Hey, I got a disrupting weapon... shouldn't I get the chance of insta-disrupting my enemy, whom I treat as Undead?
And if I treat that Dragon, or ooze, as being a human via Instant enemy, I sure as hell should be able to target it with my scroll of Hold Person, right?
May I call to your attention that the developers themselves stated that, at times, common sense should be applied instead of reading just the letter of the RAW?
And now, back to your regularly sceduled discussion.
*sigh* After trying to claim Bane, why stop there?
Hey, I got a holy weapon... shouldn't I get the added bonus by treating my opponent as if it were an evil outsider?
Oh, look, I got Pally levels, as well... sure I can smite that enemy I treat as an 'Evil Outsider', can't I?
Hey, I got a disrupting weapon... shouldn't I get the chance of insta-disrupting my enemy, whom I treat as Undead?
And if I treat that Dragon, or ooze, as being a human via Instant enemy, I sure as hell should be able to target it with my scroll of Hold Person, right?May I call to your attention that the developers themselves stated that, at times, common sense should be applied instead of reading just the letter of the RAW?
And now, back to your regularly sceduled discussion.
Well said. I'm sold.
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The spell alters one of the main abilities of the ranger. It is a part of who they are, what they have learned and know, and defines what they are good against, and what they are not specialised against by what is left out (take goblins, don't take oozes. Take demons, don't take animals). It took them a while to get their favored, it took a level or it's a part of their backstory (trolls killed my friends!) and what they grew up learning to fight and defeat (I trained for years to get revenge upon the elves). How does the spell grant all the knowledge and specialised skill behind the favored enemy ability, when the favored is already chosen and a part of the character?It's a 3rd level Ranger spell. You can use it once/day at 11th level...3 times if you have a ranger with Wisdom 18. You max at 3 times per day at levels 19-20...again adding +1-3 more if you memorize no other 3rd level spells. And it's only good for one enemy per casting. Once that enemy dies you'll need to cast it again to apply to the next. I don't really see the complaint here? It isn't like it allows you to just swap FEs. It's a spell...and one of the Ranger's most powerful spells at that!
I get people like it, I get it is convenient, I get it is useful--hold on, I'll just swap my favored over. Your char is an undead hunter, it is a part of who they are, and you are just going to swap that over to boggards, or animals, or dragons? What the...How is that any less believable or workable than an 11th level sorcerer using all his 5th level spell slots to cast Cone of Cold against a Fire Giant? Use what you have to work with. I know from experience that having a ranger with FE (orc) +6 and only seeing 1 orc in three game sessions is pretty crappy. I'd rather be able to use that ability by burning one of my most powerful spells.
Imagine a spell moving around a fighter's bonus feats, so they could take feats more appropriate to the current...
Wand of Instant Enemy.
Yeah I know, crazy isn't it?
While I don't have a response to the OP other than "I wouldn't expect RAI for Instant Enemy to work for your bane weapon" and "RAW, it looks like it should apply to everything you have, including Bane", I do have something about how Instant Enemy looks like it works.
Instant Enemy is an enchantment targeting the enemy. It makes the enemy act like your favored enemy, which you know how to fight. Basically, you force the giant to fight like an undead, which you know how to exploit.
If that is an accurate assessment, it should only work for the favored enemy bonuses, and not for Bane.
My interpretation is that "for all purposes" refers to weapon attack/damage, bluff, sense motive, tracking with survival, etc. In other words, for all purposes that you would want a target to be your Favored Enemy.
Using my interpretation, Instant Enemy could not be used to meet the race requirement for Bane weapons. As well, dwarven rangers with Hill Giants as a favored enemy could not use Instant Enemy to gain +4 dodge bonus against a dragon.
My ruleing at a table if this were brought up would be that no it would not work with bane weapon for the same reason something like hold person on dragon would not work just be cause you have favored enemy human. Your not changing the type of enemy your fighting with a sort of polymorph. Rather your gaining a mystical magical divine perspective on it that is equaly to one you have trained to face that helps you fight that target better.
Instant enemy would effect things like racial hatred & favored defence in my opinion.
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Bumped so folk can faq this thread. Seems the argument is cropping up again elsewhere :)
Greg