Definetly use "adventure club" or something similar. We tried to start a D&D club in highschool, but got shot down quick. Two days later I suggested a Starwars club and we started playing the Steve Jackson game right away, worked out fine.
Hide your copies of the fiendish codexes.
I got a little pamphlet in church several years back that listed the different types of sins and what was the church's official list of sins (Roman Catholic) and playing D&D was listed in there as a sin.
I honestly am asking this will all due respect. As a Roman Catholic, it sounds odd to me that some thing as specific as playing D&D had gotten onto an official list as a sin in the Roman Catholic Church, as that would mean that it would have been discussed at the level of the College of Cardinals and the Pope, and essentially would be listed specifically in the Code of Canon Law. If something that specific is listed, then I wonder if things like listening to AC/DC or playing Grand Theft Auto or Doom would have made it in as well.
In general, the College of Cardinals and the Pope generally don't make specific pronouncements about pop culture trends. The closest thing that we have seen in recent years is Pope John Paul II's admnonition to pop icons that wearing expensive gold and jewel encrusted crucifixes is actually disrespectful toward what the symbal should stand for.
I'm not saying this to be contentious, but I don't want people to get the wrong idea about the Catholic Church in general, as I have run into many Catholics that have no problem with Dungeons and Dragons or fantasy in general. What I am wondering is if the pamphlet you described might have been an examination of concience issued by a particular diocese, which would then have been the opinion of the Bishop or whoever he allowed to compile that particular examination of concience. If this is the case, its not a "binding" pronouncement, its just that bishop's opinion (or that of his staff).
I've seen examinations of concience in various places (for anyone that doesn't know, a list like this is usually given out for Catholics to reveiw before they go into reconciliation to make sure that they are aware of what the church condones and what it doesn't and what should be confessed), that are far more strict and exacting that the Church itself is. I've seen priests that consider adults playing video games a venial sin as it is wasting time on an immature endevor, and I've seen priests that have said that being a fan of auto racing is sinful because you are encouraging someone to risk their lives for your entertainment, and neither of these opinions are official Roman Catholic positions.
As I said above, I don't want this to sound contentious at all, and I know you are Catholic, so I don't want to call into question what you have said, its just that I'm Catholic as well, and to the best of my knowledge, this isn't the official position of the Church. I don't mind if someone wants to disagree with the Church, I'd just rather they disagreed with what they actually teach and not with what they think the Church has said.
I'd be curious to hear what diocese this was FH, and I appreciate your time in this. Also, if this IS the official position of the Church, and I'm wrong, then I appologize for this long winded post. I'll look into it, and if I'm wrong, I'll definately follow up.
To follow the Jameses (J and K) I would never have gotten into acting and theatre if it hadn't been for D&D. I probably would have just ended up following in my father and older brother's footsteps and become a doctor...
...wait...maybe my example doesn't help anyone's case really...
;-)
WtMD if you could please let us know how the meeting went. Without going into too much detail for legal reasons. I would be interested it how the Administration handle the entire situation. I am looking to become an administrator and this scene would be helpful when any controversial club is brought to the table. I can't believe that this is controversial what with everything else that parents don't mind in the school system.
I got a little pamphlet in church several years back that listed the different types of sins and what was the church's official list of sins (Roman Catholic) and playing D&D was listed in there as a sin.I honestly am asking this will all due respect. As a Roman Catholic, it sounds odd to me that some thing as specific as playing D&D had gotten onto an official list as a sin in the Roman Catholic Church, as that would mean that it would have been discussed at the level of the College of Cardinals and the Pope, and essentially would be listed specifically in the Code of Canon Law. If something that specific is listed, then I wonder if things like listening to AC/DC or playing Grand Theft Auto or Doom would have made it in as well.
In general, the College of Cardinals and the Pope generally don't make specific pronouncements about pop culture trends. The closest thing that we have seen in recent years is Pope John Paul II's admnonition to pop icons that wearing expensive gold and jewel encrusted crucifixes is actually disrespectful toward what the symbal should stand for.
I'm not saying this to be contentious, but I don't want people to get the wrong idea about the Catholic Church in general, as I have run into many Catholics that have no problem with Dungeons and Dragons or fantasy in general. What I am wondering is if the pamphlet you described might have been an examination of concience issued by a particular diocese, which would then have been the opinion of the Bishop or whoever he allowed to compile that particular examination of concience. If this is the case, its not a "binding" pronouncement, its just that bishop's opinion (or that of his staff).
I've seen examinations of concience in various places (for anyone that doesn't know, a list like this is usually given out for Catholics to reveiw before they go into reconciliation to make sure that they are aware of what the church condones and what it doesn't and what should be confessed), that are far more...
Please consider my Christian brothers and sisters, that sin is a personal thing and cannot be defined to you by another, this also is the teaching of the Church. Sin is defined for us as putting yourself before God, as this is a bit hard to define; there are the various acts of good such as grace, love, kindness, forgiveness and charity, and the seven deadly sins to tell you when you are going astray. So the question would be, do you in your heart embrace or proliferate the seven deadly sins or sin by breaking a commandment which is an attempt to define actions that put yourself before God. If the answer is yes, you have a problem; if the answer is no; then you don't; only you can know or define it. A secondary question of people of faith is the stumbling block before others; does it cause others to sin that you play the game, this too is a very serious thing. If you have no evidence of this; then you have no problem; the church pamphlet can only warn you about actions that may cause you to contribute, contimplate or directly sin; I know of no church law banning D&D; as we are all under Grace and a priestly people of Church Militant against Evil; you must decide for yourself in good conscience; in faith, I hope this helps.
I believe that I know myself better by playing this game which is a good thing; I do not believe for me it is a sin to play.
For you others who do not believe, please ignore this post, I would have done it on a whisper or personal email, but dont know how.
To follow the Jameses (J and K) I would never have gotten into acting and theatre if it hadn't been for D&D. I probably would have just ended up following in my father and older brother's footsteps and become a doctor...
...wait...maybe my example doesn't help anyone's case really...
;-)
hehe the Puritans banned acting and theatre because they were not sure who did the sin when and actor committed a crime such as theft even when the crime was only an act. The whole argument they had was well thought out and very interesting, but sheesh, that sort of thing would make it impossible to do very much or spend any time considering actions before you choose a course of choice; sheesh; conveluted to say the least. I found it interesting that you were led to acting by D&D as from a certain veiwpoint it could be considers a stepping stone to more corruption; which I certainly dont believe, but was an interesting historical parallel from American history of the 16th century.
Exactly...I would start with introduction to gaming, main point being something like "it's like Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter but the players decide how the story will go and act it out". If the parent in question thinks Harry Potter/LotR/drama is evil and satanic you can sigh, concentrate on nodding and basically give up the conversation because there is no hope to get that discussion anywhere.
You've boiled it down to the perfect test right there-- extracting maximum data with a minimum amount of effort.
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The Pamphelet I saw was 3"x5" booklet listing types of sins and had approximately 150 different sins list, and it specifically stated "Dungeons and Dragons game" and the booklet had all the trapping of the Catholic Church on it. I am part of the Wilmington Diocese in Delaware. This was 5-7 years ago and may have changed in the interrum. I wish I had saved it but in a fit of anger I shredded it and placed it in the collection basket instead of an offering.
FH
When I was in middle/high school, I got the D&D black box. I showed it to my (very) few friends, and carried the abridged rule book with me to classes. Back then, we didn't do much more than play with G.I. Joes, or watch reruns of Beverly Hillbillies. But now, we finally had a creative outlet.
I don't even remember what I did with much of my spare time at home, until I started playing D&D. We made reservations at our library to play about once a week, for a few hours after school. In retrospect, the whole thing might have gone even better had we had a moderater present, but we ended up letting our imaginations run wild.
Some of my most lasting ideas and reoccuring themes/characters still arc back to those halcyon days of meeting with my friends, new and old, to roll some dice and laugh and smile about our own fantastic dreamworlds.
The reason I mention this is that not one of the people in this D&D group was "cool". We really were the outcasts of our school, and would've been left there with no real outlet for our extracurricular time. D&D afforded us the opportunity to let our creativity take shape in a safe and controlled environment.
There was no corrupting force; rather, we felt like we were in a safe zone. While our classmates were getting into things like smoking, drugs, drinking, and underage sex, we were lucky to find that, years later, we ironically dodged that bullet with our weekly gatherings.
And here is a crucial point regarding D&D, and role-playing games in general: they are fantasy first. We all know this, but this point gets lost on many who have no experience with it. My first recommendation to anyone interested in D&D is to invite them to sit in. See what they like. It's like anything in life we're trying to understand; it starts with exposure to the material first.
RPGs are a microcosm, removed from the troubles and woe of daily life. It's no different than watching a movie, listening to an album, or reading a book. Your exposed to material that exists within the confines of itself. It may reference familiar material, but like the classic disclaimer goes, all likenesses and depictions are purely coincidence. Fiction itself operates strictly on this credo.
I am a Christian myself, and face no contradictions in my faith with regards to playing D&D. In short, it's just a game; a great game, but just a game. I hope parents in schools across the world will come to this revelation soon enough, so that other children who long for a creative outlet in their developmental stages will be able to do so before it's too late.
The Pamphelet I saw was 3"x5" booklet listing types of sins and had approximately 150 different sins list, and it specifically stated "Dungeons and Dragons game" and the booklet had all the trapping of the Catholic Church on it. I am part of the Wilmington Diocese in Delaware. This was 5-7 years ago and may have changed in the interrum. I wish I had saved it but in a fit of anger I shredded it and placed it in the collection basket instead of an offering.
FH
Heh, I don't blame you, and sorry about being so long winded in what amounted to asking you what it looked like and what diocese . . . you can ask Darkmeer . . . I never say anything with a handful of words that I can't turn into several obtuse paragraphs.
Count me in as another gamer interested in hearing the outcome of your meeting, WtMD. If your story gets around, other gamer parents may just stand up and further support what you're doing.
-Professional Note-
Be aware that if your Concerned Parent is of the rant-y bent, he/she may go to the local media... especially if it's a smaller town. As a journalist, I would find this kind of conflict an interesting story idea, and would want to tell it so that both sides are getting a chance to be heard, not just the shrill cries of "D&D!" from a high-strung parent.
Also be aware that some (more unscrupulous) members of the media may play up the fear angle of the parent, especially if they're scraping to move up in the market. I've seen other TV stations switch to these sort of fear tactics in order to get a quick ratings boost, at the expense of telling the full story.
If that happens, don't be afraid to take your story to a competitor; if you can't find a sympathetic ear, writing a Letter to the Editor may be your only option, but one you should take. People at my work know I'm a gamer, and though I don't flaunt it, I won't deny it... and I'm always looking for stories that highlight the positive aspects of gaming.
So, good luck; and remember, don't even WHISPER the word religion unless they do first.
RJ
Play MERP instead--a game based on movies that made billions of dollars can't be satanic right? We worship money and everyone loves Aragorn.....plus the MERP/Rolemaster crit tables are the best thing in role-playing to stimulate reading.
One other thing I will mention here about the "D&D Stigma" that some people still have lingering in their minds. It wasn't just a "Christian thing." If it were, it would be more like the fundamentalist churches that are against Harry Potter . . . you hear about them once in a while, but for the most part, they don't make a major impact on the overall perception of the product.
D&D is one of those things that managed to suffer from the . . . ahem . . unholy alliance of pop psychology, media frenzy, AND fundamentalist uproar. The combination made it much more noteworthy than just one element alone. Not one reference is made in the wonderful film "Mazes and Monsters" about fantasy roleplaying games driving their players to Satan . . . the whole point is that it makes kids crazy and unable to tell reality from fiction.
There are a lot of Christians that, even if they see some vehemently opposed prechers on television, will make up their own mind about something. But when child psychologist get on their favorite talk shows and say that its psychologically unhealthy to play them AND the TV movie of the week shows that D&D players are suicidal or homocidal . . . then it makes an impact, and resonates on several fronts.
All this means is that there are pastors, psychologists, reporters, and television producers that are guilty of passing judgment on things before they know enough about them to make the satements that they make.
I'm a teacher and have been working on a club at my school to get kids into dnd. I just call it games club, and the kids that come can play everything from chess to risk to warhammer to dnd. Games club doesn't really stir up any controversy, and since most of the kids at my school are new immigrants their parents have generally never heard of dnd, so it isn't an issue.
Ok...<cracking knuckles> Firstly, allow me to pontificate out loud on how much i enjoy these kinds of exercises. I believe that this is a very worthwile endevor because the actionable outcome of the origional poster's problematic can only serve as a platform to forward the ideas that many of the other posters here have offered and the poster is serving as an embassador to the intrinsic values that can be had by the game that all of us here enjoy. Regardless of that outcome, this thread serves as a medium for all of us to reflect on the various ways that our hobby and our subculture have made very real impacts on our lives through the years in positive ways. Now, on to the task at hand...
There is not a large body of scholarly work dedicated to the subculture of RPGs. I have tried to procure as much as i can as gaming philosophy is an interest of mine.
1. As i've stated many times on these boards, I highly recommend that any gamer interested in the "whys" of our hobby pick up the touchstone text on the subject- Allen Fine: Shared fantasy: Role-playing games as social worlds, Chicago, U. of Chicago Press, 1983. It is an older work but still considered the authority on the culture of gaming. For the origionl poster, i'd recommend specifically reading chapters 2 - the characteristics of gamers (Psychoanalysis and sociological demographics) and chapter 3 - Collective Fantasy (how social worlds and stories are constructed my multiple players). These two chapters specifically will give you some critical insight into the sociology of gaming.
2. I would also highly recommend that you read an essay by Dennis Waskul: The Role-playing game and the game of role-playing: The ludic self and everyday life. In Williams, Hendricks, Winkler (eds.) Gaming as Culture: Essays on reality, identity, and experinece in fantasy games. Jefferson, NC, McFarland Press, 2006. Many cultural changes have arisin since Fine's work and Waskul does a good job of updating Fine's core studies and ideas in the here and now. For a quick read and recap of Fine's longer work, i'd recommend reading this if you're in a time bind.
3. If you can find a ccouple of full text articles of Neil and McManus "The Personality of Fantasy Game Players." Brit J of Psychology 84:505-509, 1993. and Carroll and Carolin "Relationship between fantasy games playing and personality." Psychological Reports 82:182, 1998; they are both good reads and they do an excellent job of expanding on the psycoanalytic work of Fine regarding the psychology of the RPGamer.
4. Finally, specifically for this case, i'd recommend picking up - Crookhall and Arai: Simulation and gaming across disciplines and cultures, Thousand Oaks, Sage, 1995. There is an article in that collection called "The Educational Effectiveness of Interactive Games" that i think any teacher running a club like the proposed one here should read.
As one poster advised here, the situation dictates that the origional poster get a good read of the concerned parent before deciding on what elements to bring up. I would recommend steering well clear of any religious references...BUT...if it goes down that the origional poster has to talk about religion and gaming, i'd recommend that he/she familirize themself with a relitively recent work that has a chapter dedicated to RPGaming called Folk Devils and Moral Panics, 3rd ed by Stanley Cohen in 2002. This text tries to be objective about how the U.S. religious communities in the 1980s approached RPGaming. It's interesting, but for just that chapter may not be worth buying the book.
Anyway, i hope this helps the specific situation...i'm going to post on another thread about the topics that i would cover as a teacher if i was GMing an after school club.
As ever,
ACE
To begin: Thank you.
I never thought I would get such an enormous amount of support and suggestions. I have so many things to say but, unfortunately, it is very late. (My alarm goes off in 6 hours.) I will definitely respond to the various posts above tomorrow (well, today actually...it's after 12). I will also update the community on the proceedings of the meeting. There were so many good suggestions I can't begin to respond to each person just yet. I'll have to type my response in another document and quote all the respective posters. Again I thank you all and look forward to my meeting tomorrow. I'm confident it will be positive experience as my administrator is very supportive. I'm starting to ramble now and must sleep...
Thanks again,
WtMD?
P.S. Tune in tomorrow after 4:00PM Eastern Standard Time for an update.
Weren't Gygax and Arneson religious? If so, that may be a good point to bring up. If not, well... nevermind.....
Of course, a name like "Gygax" probably won't set suspicious minds at ease. :)
It reminds me of those little pamphlets people hand out in parks that show women who use birth control surrounded by hellflames and such.
What??? What the hell do these people think that they try to tell others what to do or even think? Sure, pregnant teenagers all over that live in poverty and can´t afford proper education for themselves or their kids are that much more christian, or whatever faith these people carry in front of them. I always thought charity was at the core of christianity, not self-righteous preaching of double moral standards.
Sorry, got a little carried away here.
Stefan
Play MERP instead--a game based on movies that made billions of dollars can't be satanic right? We worship money and everyone loves Aragorn.....plus the MERP/Rolemaster crit tables are the best thing in role-playing to stimulate reading.
CT-9 - Impcact Critical Table (120): Blast (from past) annihilates entire skeleton. (I'm) Reduced to a gelatinous pulp. Try a spatula.
My first RPG,
GGG
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Even Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia (both chock full of Christian symbolism) can come under attack by the religious zealots who have never read them.
Ironic, since both CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien were Christians, Narnia is intentionally allegorical, and there exist several letters by Tolkien talking about Christian elements in LotR.
Ironic sure but sadly it is all too true. I manage a bookstore and hear some of the goofiest narrow-minded rhetoric. For example I recently had a woman tell her daughter to put down a Narnia bookmark because it was evil. She then turned to me and expected support when she said to me, "I don't know why they let people make that devil stuff." I made the mistake politely pointing out that actually The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is bible "allegory." As if I had provided the support she had been looking for she responded with, "Exactly it goes right against the bible."
My point is you never know when someone is just going to misinterpret everything you say just so it fits into his or her preconceived notions. While I doubt this child's parent is as dense as my customer, it's just best to try to not confuse the issues.
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I've seen a few of those kinds of things around upstate NY, where I live.It reminds me of those little pamphlets people hand out in parks that show women who use birth control surrounded by hellflames and such.Wow. Jack Chick would be proud.
Where did you live at the time?
A couple of years ago, Bill Sali, a Idaho state representative, told one of his co-politicians that since she'd once had an abortion, she would get cancer and die. The good people of Idaho responded to this by electing him to the House of Representatives in Washington. Nutjobs are everywhere.
As for the gaming issue, I agree with P.H. Dungeon (great name, BTW) - call it a "game club" and offer chess, Axis & Allies, Risk and D&D. That'll reduce the "cult" aspect of it and make it more acceptable.
Update: Well, not really...unfortunately the meeting was canceled as my principal and the parent were both involved in a community event and couldn't make it tonight. What a let down... The meeting has yet to be rescheduled as of yet. My principal said it may even happen with just him and the parent. He still fully supports the club and basically just wants to let the parent know that it is harmless and that she has the right to remove her child from it. I'll post the solution to this whole thing when it occurs.
Thanks again,
WtMD
thanks for the update; I am all ready as well as probably many peoples on these board to write (hopefully email) to your local paper if needed if this hits the fan there and stuff in support of the positive force in gaming. Newspaper do act on stuff like this and with enough of the right kind of support....but then, I sincerly hope that you guys work it out mano a mano; am just ready to campaign if necessary and this turns ugly.
whew; maybe I should stop over at the rant thread :) didnt realize I felt so strongly about this kind of misinformed alarmist mind control.
EDIT: I wrote a paper on the misperceptions surrounding D&D for graduate school - if you'd like, I can point you in the direction of a few good psychological studies on the effects of RPGs, none of which show any kind of negative effect.
I would absolutely love to get a copy of some of that! Could you e-mail it?
WOW! I can't believe this sort of thing is still happening; guess I failed my reality check roll
For those who need a little history, I wrote this in 1991 as a proposed editorial commentary for a gaming 'zine that never got off the ground.
I've been a gamer since Feb, 1977. Current church doctrine and dogma nationally says I'm walking a primrose path to damnation because I play. So is anyone who plays RPGs. RPGs are Satanic and we're all devil-worshipers. We practice black magic and human sacrifice. Did you know that? Somehow I missed it. I've never seen any such thing. I've experienced no recruiting approaches, other than from our accusers. I get more hassles from the "truly religious" pestering me to convert.
Some years ago, circa 1978/79, Rev. Pat Robertson, on his nationally broadcast CBN program, foisted this holier-than-thou opinion of the games onto the public. He got away with it. No one stood up to challenge him. Now we're in trouble. In June, 1990, I went to a seminar at a local college. There two men, a police officer and a psychologist, gave testimony to their experiences with "mentally deranged" teens who had been "corrupted" to drugs and black magic by exposure to RPGs. They cited twenty-one case histories covering a twelve year period, who had committed suicide, murder, theft, or been institutionalized. Those discussed all had problems apart from RPGs. (One high school youth was gay, for example, with predictable associated troubles.)
Only twenty-one cases? In twelve years? More people are killed annually by lightning! Thinking about these statistics , I felt that if this was the limit of danger inherent in RPGs, I was better off at a game table than behind the wheel of a car. I didn't dare stand up to speak during the seminar itself. I was literally concerned for my physical safety. I was afraid of being stoned by the righteous. I was so upset that after the program concluded I went home and logged onto a local computer BBS, warning that a pogrom to rival the popular Inquisitions was in the offing. I got a lot of responses. The comments seemed mixed but most seemed to agree, in principle, with my opinion that the church and law enforcement communities have no business condemning gamers or the games. They don't understand us and have drawn an erroneous conclusion from incomplete information. I'm outraged by the thought that my hobby is a thing to be despised by "decent, God-fearing Christians." The poison has spread frighteningly far.
Things really haven't changed. The poison still runs deep, firmly attached to short-sighted social bigotry and dogmatic BS that makes no sense to anyone with enough brain cells to rub together and make a thought. But... there it is. How we deal with it is up to us. I just keep plugging.
The meeting has yet to be rescheduled as of yet. My principal said it may even happen with just him and the parent.
That doesn't sound good.
What worries me is that if the principal and the parent have the meeting alone, you won't get a chance to present your side. The parent can then present all the anti-D&D propoganda without being challenged, and the principal may then allow himself to be persuaded to put the club 'on hold' until a 'full review' can be conducted. Nothing nasty about that, is there?
Of course, the next thing to happen is that the review somehow gets lost in the conflicting schedules of various people, and the club therefore quietly gets shelved, through the efforts of a single vocal parent, and a principal who doesn't want the hassle.
I'm not saying it will happen. But I have seen this exact scenario play out more than once in other areas, and the first warning sign is _always_ where one concerned party is removed from the meeting.
I agree with the above. Let me also congratulate WtMD for attempting this. I'm crossing my fingers for you.
I don't see any connection between D&D and Satanism. The simple fact that it's fiction should end all arguments about religion. It's not real, and kids who mistake it for being real have problems that go beyond D&D. Like so many other aspects of our society (movies, music, video games) D&D is the perfect scapegoat. Really, those who insist that D&D is a sin are ignorant. Period.
And this is coming from someone who grew up in a Presbyterian household who went to church every Sunday. I believe in God. I have also been playing D&D for 15 years. D&D is not a sin. Believe me. I know.
Sadly, much of religion thrives on ignorance. Pat Robertson is a fantastic example of this. I fear that the parent in question will prefer to bask in her ignorance. After all, when considering public schools in America, the parent is always right, regardless of the situation. I fear that the parent cancelled the meeting because she would rather not see WtMD's side of things, a side that will most-likely annihilate any rebuttal she might have on deck, and she can't have that. *rolls eyes*
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the parent refused to sit in on a gaming session. The reality of the game would shatter her preconceived notions. Essentially, she will fight, kicking and screaming, to stay in her cave of ignorance, and she'll raise holy hell to make sure her kid stays there with her. So very sad... It makes me sick, honestly.
It's like the episode of South Park that pokes fun at evolution/creation. Daughter: "But daddy! I want to learn about evolution!" Father: "No you don't!"
If the parent in question is determined enough, sitting in on a session may only convince said parent that you have altered your typical proceedings due to the outsider presence. I would still offer it, but it will hardly stamp out any and all distrust without fail.
Update: Again, only a 'sort of' update...but perhaps still indicative of the parent's thinking. Since the meeting was postponed the child in question has not been to school...apparently, while on the phone with my principal the mother of the child said she would pull her kid from our school as part of her list of consequences if the club was not canceled. I'm hoping he is just sick. (That didn't sound right by I think you know what I meant...) We'll see on Monday...
Again, thanks for the suggestions and support,
WtMD
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Update: Again, only a 'sort of' update...but perhaps still indicative of the parent's thinking. Since the meeting was postponed the child in question has not been to school...apparently, while on the phone with my principal the mother of the child said she would pull her kid from our school as part of her list of consequences if the club was not canceled. I'm hoping he is just sick. (That didn't sound right by I think you know what I meant...) We'll see on Monday...
Again, thanks for the suggestions and support,
WtMD
So one person is trying to impose their own view of good and bad, with no attempts at learning about said view, upon an entire population in your school. I hate when people get all self-righteous and try to force their view of right and wrong on others...sounds like a very ego-maniacal mindset.
I really hope your principal sees that this family is a burden on the school and backs you til the end of this fiasco, but I think $$$ is gonna do the talking on this one. Is this a private school with tuitions? If so the bottomline may play a starring role in this.Sorry dude, keep fighting the battle. People suck.
FH
I hate when people get all self-righteous and try to force their view of right and wrong on others...sounds like a very ego-maniacal mindset. Sorry dude, keep fighting the battle. People suck. FH
It's sad. People on the fringe are so insecure in their "faith" that they have to make absolutely sure that everyone agrees with them... or else. Unfortunately, it sounds like your club is at odds with this parent's entire world-view; who will fight harder to preserve which one? I think I speak for everyone on the boards when I offer the deepest sympathy and support.
Maybe the parent in question will be someone you can reason with in a logical manner. But keep in mind that when teachers everwhere were praising the Harry Potter books for getting kids interested (and excited) about reading, etc. There was some wacko somewhere who wanted to have all those same books banned, due to religious reasons, because they contained references to magic, witchcraft, etc. If you have one of THOSE people arguing with you... good luck!
Maybe the parent in question will be someone you can reason with in a logical manner.
I don´t think so. As WtMD put it, the parent threatened to withdraw the kid if the club is not canceled, and already did not let the kid go to school (which is bad enough in itself, but that is another matter entirely). If a behaviour like this is evident before any meeting, I would not count on rational behaviour as a possibility on the parents side... This mind seems to be set, and mo matter what you argue, that will probably not change.
Don´t waste too much energy on that. Work your way around it, call it a gaming club, play cluedo or risk or settlers of catan, and introduce the old talisman game. If there is such a strong reaction to D&D, it is probably not worth the fight.
My guess is that this parent will pull the kid from the school anyway, and look for a more "proper" school, without any "satanic" influences - if even the teaching body propagates "satanism", how can the school be proper anyway? (I just try to get into that skewed and distorted mindset, don´t get me wrong here) This would be a logical conclusion from the mindset of this parent.
Stefan
Since the meeting was postponed the child in question has not been to school...apparently, while on the phone with my principal the mother of the child said she would pull her kid from our school as part of her list of consequences if the club was not canceled. I'm hoping he is just sick.
Another bad sign. As you mentioned, it _might_ just be coincidence. Additionally, it might still be the case that the parent is open to reason, and that the child has been withdrawn just as some sort of preventative measure.
More likely, I think, you're stuck. It isn't worth sacrificing this child's education over a club. (The parent feels differently, but since you can't compel the parent to be sensible, you have only a few options to play with.)
It might be worth suggesting a compromise to the principal - rename it an "Adventure Games" club, and agree not to play D&D at the club. Instead, go for Star Wars, Spycraft, or d20 Modern. If they go for this, be sure to uphold your end of the agreement rigorously - make sure there aren't even any D&D books present in the room when you play.
I really don't like compromises of this sort, and dislike suggesting it even more, since it feels like admitting both defeat and some justification to the accusations. However, since the alternative is starting to look very much like seeing the club banned (or quietly buried), I think perhaps the principled stand is a less suitable option.
(Be sure to _only_ suggest this if your read of the parent is that he'll go for it. And suggest it to the principal in private first - the principal should be the one to suggest it to the parent as being his idea for a compromise. That way, it looks like a suggestion where both sides give a little ground, as opposed to you capitulating. (Yes, I've had too much exposure to this sort of micro-politics. I've learned it's just as important to present ideas the right way as it is to present the right ideas.))
is that legal; I dont think anyone can just decide not to send their kids to school no matter what the reason; yeah, you can homeschool, but you cant just keep your kids doing nothing. This isnt much different than if a parent said; school is to violent; or I dont like the science they teach, or the school is the wrong color so I am keeping my kid home. Just doesnt sound legal to me; kids have to go to school or some government agencies start getting involved right? I don't think a parent can hold their kid out of school because a club exists; sure the kid might not be able to participate; but they probably have to go to school. Sounds like the kid is being used as a weapon to excersize power and authority; sad, but typical.
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If you don't mind me asking, where exactly is this happening? I thought that the town in which I went to high school (Bolivar, MO--the buckle of the Bible Belt) was the only place still stuck in the Middle Ages. It bothers me to see that ignorance is still rampant in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. Why do people fear what they don't understand?
If you don't mind me asking, where exactly is this happening? I thought that the town in which I went to high school (Bolivar, MO--the buckle of the Bible Belt) was the only place still stuck in the Middle Ages. It bothers me to see that ignorance is still rampant in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. Why do people fear what they don't understand?
The Bible belt is spreading. We seem to be in the midst of a big fundamentalist "revival," like the one after the Civil War that put "In God We Trust" on the currency (contrary to neo-Christian myth, that wasn't always there).
If you feel the results would be positive, perhaps make a poll/petition of the general student/parent population, or even call a meeting to discuss the issue? If the general consent is that the club is okay and should continue, then that parent is forced to realize that they are in the minority.
The parent may not like it and will pull the kid out of school (who will then go to another one or be homeschooled, but his whole education won't be lost), but the club can continue without all this rigamarole.
Unless you feel the majority would be swayed by the complaining parent or already predisposed to opposition, to the point that rational discussion would be impossible. Then this could backfire and bury the club forever.
How big is this school? My combo junior/senior high school only had about 450 students from the 7th through 12th grades. It's obviously easier to call such a meeting in a setting like that than it is if the school has a population of a thousand or several thousand. Maybe the meeting could just be for those students (and parents thereof) already in, or interested in, the gaming club.
is that legal; I dont think anyone can just decide not to send their kids to school no matter what the reason; yeah, you can homeschool, but you cant just keep your kids doing nothing. This isnt much different than if a parent said; school is to violent; or I dont like the science they teach, or the school is the wrong color so I am keeping my kid home. Just doesnt sound legal to me; kids have to go to school or some government agencies start getting involved right? I don't think a parent can hold their kid out of school because a club exists; sure the kid might not be able to participate; but they probably have to go to school. Sounds like the kid is being used as a weapon to excersize power and authority; sad, but typical.
Valegrim: To answer your question, yes many states have a compulsory school attendance law on there books. I could go into details about it from my School Law Book but I am afraid it would put to many people to sleep.
WtDW: I found something that may be of help. In a court case that went to the Supreme Court it was found that students have a right to organize thier own groups in public schools (no word on private schools), with the permission of the principal. For you act as just the sponsor of the club and assign a president, vice-president and so on, then the club should be ok. The case is Board of Education of the Westside Community Schools v. Mergens if you are interested.
Hope this helps you out some.
thanks; that is what I was thinking; am wondering how long this kid can be kept out of school over something this minor.