Spoilers...
Is destroying the tear of Tlaloc really that necessary? If the PCs destroy the bilewretch and kill all the kopru, then go up to the surface and complete the next stage (the other ruined city) won't that alleviate the need to destroy the tear? Sure, some of the kopru may survive the PCs activities, but it at least stops the aboleth from reawakening.
It doesn't seem truly vital to the victory of the PCs, just merely an excuse for good story to ensue and to clear out a lot of dangerous kopru encounters. Of course, it's also an opportunity for the DM to put on his best face and trick the PCs into doing something horrible. >:D
Creative Director
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If the PCs can handle several dozen koprus, giant koprus, and nagas, then no, they don't need to go through the trouble of destroying Tlaloc's Tear. One of the things we're trying to build into these adventures is an element of player choice, in an attempt to make things feel less like a railroad.
Nevermind the fact that I suspect players WANT to be railroaded. They just don't want to know that they're being railroaded.
Nevermind the fact that I suspect players WANT to be railroaded. They just don't want to know that they're being railroaded.
James is so wise :)
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If the PCs can handle several dozen koprus, giant koprus, and nagas, then no, they don't need to go through the trouble of destroying Tlaloc's Tear. One of the things we're trying to build into these adventures is an element of player choice, in an attempt to make things feel less like a railroad.
Nevermind the fact that I suspect players WANT to be railroaded. They just don't want to know that they're being railroaded.
We had that EXACT conversation after our last game. Two of my players asked me that exact question after the game. Does this adventure alow for choices that the PC's make to determine certain outcomes or are they being railroaded. I have deffiantely noticed the inclusion of PC Choices in this adventure. Alot less railroading. Awsome Job!
besides, much better to take those xp yourself than let some tentacled abominations collect :D
do we even have to run this adventure at all? i guess not, seeing as how there is another opportunity to destroy a bunch of pearls on the next adventure in the AP. also, there is the jade ravens, who i see as being a "party that will take the mission if the other one doesn't" sort of deal. I'm thinnking of having the jade ravens do all the stuff in the underdark while my party decides to take on the above ground stuff.
i can't figure it out, but there is something that doesn't fit in this adventure, and i don't like it for some reason. sure, the writing is good, and the maps are pretty, but there is an element of "wrongness" about this adventure i can't put my finger on. it seems more like and excuse to give out XP than actually follow the storyline of the AP. i just can't get past the fact that the PCs have to use diplomacy with evil monsters in order to defeat greater evil monsters. i know my party of hackenslashers wouldn't go for it at all, seeing how the highest charisma in the party is a 15 and that's attached to a rogue who wouldn't know the first thing about diplomacy.
do we even have to run this adventure at all?
I would say: definitely! It may stray from the main theme of the AP, but is somehow refreshing and thus welcomed by me with open arms. Perhaps I like this kind of adventure and say it is a must run just because of this fact. But yes it makes the whole shadow pearl thing and their production process more vile. The koprus are sooo evil that most likely the PCs will help aboleths (!!!) to defeat them. They meet corrupted troglodytes (and the MM states that they are "as evil as the foulest of demons") and may guess that this corruption stems from the koprus and their demonic patron.
Overall I think this module serves to underline the evilness of the producers of the shadow pearls, to explain the role of the crimson fleet in the distribution of the vile devices in more detail and perhaps to give the PCs more drive to stop those things.Perhaps I repeated myself but it's a must run for me!
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Creative Director
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Actually, you do need to run the adventure. What you don't need to do is run it before "City of Broken Idols."
The production of the shadow pearls takes place at both locations. They're created in the plateau in "City of Broken Idols," but at that point they aren't infused with madness and savagery. They have to be sent below to the ruined city of Golismorga to stew and soak up black bile to finish being created. If the PCs skip Lightless Depths, they haven't really stopped the production of shadow pearls, since Demogorgon can just send another aspect in to start up production again. Without the bilewretch and the facility below in Golismorga, though, it's a LOT more difficult to do that. Plus, if the PCs skip Lightless Depths, you'll need to do something to get them leveled up before they go much further...
If you end up sending the Jade Ravens into the flightless depths, they should fail and then having the PCs go on a rescue mission to save them could be another reason to head down there.
As for using diplomacy with evil monsters, that's a theme that's only going to grow in the adventure to come, especially when you need to recruit enemies of Demogorgon to aid in attacking him. (These diplomatic encounters will, of course, have ways to solve them without actually using Diplomacy the skill.) The encounter with Emraag is, in many ways, a practice run at negotiating with monsters for the PCs. Working with aboleths is another one. There's another one coming up in "Serpents of Scuttlecove," and then again in the next three adventures.
It bears repeating: Working and allying with the lesser evil to defeat the greater evil is a very strong theme of the last few adventures in this campaign. If that theme doesn't sit well with you, I'm afraid you'll have some extensive rewriting of the last few adventures ahead of you if you choose to continue all the way to its end.
..well there is that other option too, going saintly paladin, dressing up in some heavy fortified mithril fullplate and grabbing that greatsword+1/fiendbane^5 ...and hacking away like no tomorrow, and trusting that your fasthealing will keep you around ;)
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Creative Director
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..well there is that other option too, going saintly paladin, dressing up in some heavy fortified mithril fullplate and grabbing that greatsword+1/fiendbane^5 ...and hacking away like no tomorrow, and trusting that your fasthealing will keep you around ;)
That option might break down in "Enemies of my Enemy," where the evil monsters you're trying to forge alliances with are CR 28 and higher...
Demogorgon can just send another aspect in to start up production again.
:o
Aspect of Demogorgon next adventure?!
i can't figure it out, but there is something that doesn't fit in this adventure, and i don't like it for some reason. sure, the writing is good, and the maps are pretty, but there is an element of "wrongness" about this adventure i can't put my finger on. it seems more like and excuse to give out XP than actually follow the storyline of the AP.
I agree with the monkey. No disrespect meant to the talent behind this adventure, but it lacks the flavor ("avast, ye scurvy dog!" and otherwise) of the rest of the AP. If I ran the AP, I'd be inclined to cut this adventure while expanding the plots and hooks from Tides of Dread and the Farshore backdrop.
james, thanks for all the insight. while i understand that the main part of the quest is to stop the production of the shadow pearls, when i run this, i am going to change a few things. the problem i have is that our sessions only run about 3 or 4 hours every few weeks. i have a couple of players who get bored by the "talky parts" as they say, and want more action. so while i may be running this adventure, there will be several things that i take out or modify. i'm waiting for the next adventure to come out before i decide what to do. i may convert the best of both parts together and see how it goes from there. but yes, i understand there is a tone of "the enemy of my enemy is my freind" in the AP. That is one of the reasons i wanted to run this one.
as far as the XP they need and what level, they are doing a lot of side quests, and it will probably take them another 2 months of real time to get to this adventure. when they get done with the crimson fleet, they want to spend a few sessions just exploring the island and gaining treasure. after that i plan on them being 12th level just so they can take on that aspect.
I LOVED STAP up until now, and I still love it! One weird Elder Underdark adventure does not ruin a pirate campaign, especially if the said adventure is as cool as "Lightless Depths." In fact, we all kind of enjoyed the change of pace. Keep mixing them up! (That was the downfall of Age of Worms, by the way: the first four adventures were more like the Age of Dungeon Crawls. My players crave variety!) STAP has given us cities, shipboard, jungle wilderness, and now Underdark. I can't wait to get back to a city in Scuttlecove, and I look forward to see what the Abyss will be like.
I have to agree - I haven't started running yet (character creation session on March 7th *crosses fingers*), but reading ahead the thing I love most about this adventure path is how different each adventure is from the next.
Seriously:
- Run off some bottomfeeding extortionists and fight your way out of a zombie-infested cave.
- Raid a monster-filled pirate hideout and race back to save your patron from an invasion of her home.
- Sail off to resupply a colony, evading pirates and investigating intriguing ruins as you go.
- Make your way along a dangerous coastline to the colony, all the while being stalked by a ferocious demon.
- Fight off a pirate attack and then figure out how to prepare the colony for an even bigger assault.
- Invade the depths of the isle to put a stop to the production of shadow pearls, dealing with troglodytes and mongrelfolk and aboleths in order to defeat the greater threat.
I'm very satisfied with the variety.
(snip) i can't figure it out, but there is something that doesn't fit in this adventure, and i don't like it for some reason. sure, the writing is good, and the maps are pretty, but there is an element of "wrongness" about this adventure i can't put my finger on. (snip)
Interesting. While I can understand something of what you're saying this would have to be one of my favourite Dungeon adventures ever. In addition, the "otherworldliness" might impart to the players a stronger sense of the "wrongness" that they face.
i understand there is a tone of "the enemy of my enemy is my freind" in the AP.
So much so that the title of adventure 11 is "Enemies of My Enemy." :)
i know my party of hackenslashers wouldn't go for it at all, seeing how the highest charisma in the party is a 15 and that's attached to a rogue who wouldn't know the first thing about diplomacy.
Not metagaming but was scanning through your recent posts and found this: seeing how the highest charisma in the party is a 15 and that's attached to a rogue who wouldn't know the first thing about diplomacy. Interesting gay p. seeing as how I am the rogue and next mission i will use some serious charisma to persuade the kind townsfolk to set fire to your DM's screen. that is all.
Not metagaming but was scanning through your recent posts and found this: seeing how the highest charisma in the party is a 15 and that's attached to a rogue who wouldn't know the first thing about diplomacy. Interesting gay p. seeing as how I am the rogue and next mission i will use some serious charisma to persuade the kind townsfolk to set fire to your DM's screen. that is all.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, Toolbag..but how is it not metagaming to read your DM's posts? I mean..even the thread titles have spoilers on this board. I would be a very unhappy DM if I discovered my players were browsing this forum.
I just wanted to chime in to say I thought it was a great adventure, and on a separate note, I wouldn't allow players that read these boards to be in my game. Toolbag: get out!
~Qualidar~
I'm not trying to be argumentative, Toolbag..but how is it not metagaming to read your DM's posts? I mean..even the thread titles have spoilers on this board. I would be a very unhappy DM if I discovered my players were browsing this forum.
A formidable question indeed. You see by using control+f to search the entire page of his posts for key word like Drew, rogue, Toolbag, Pub, ect. I can quickly determine if he has been talking about me without reading his posts. To be perfectly honest I don't even read the thread titles because I learned early on they might give away spoilers.
But reading your DM's post about your character is metagaming. DM's come on here to discuss how they are running STAP, and alot of that discussion is not meant for the player's to read. I mean, if your DM has no problem with it then it's none of my business. I just know that it would make me an angry, PC killin' DM.