As the OP it brings back memories for me, though some of the elitism is a little much.
Shush you. I tested the water pooled in the middle of the thread and the elitism was only at 4.3 megasnobs. That's utterly survivable and should only give you mild nausea and a headache.
I wonder, how much of the setting, history, vocabulary ect, that you print is said to the player anyways. Does the average player of this 5 star adventure (Prince of Redhand) hear the word "Marzipan"? I would bet your average DM skips that readout, and instead focuses on playing a great and unusual adventure that for once does not involve combat.I modify my adventures a lot. I can add my own flavour to my campaign. What I find hard to do is make INTERESTING scenarios that involve alternative, original solutions. I also find it hard to make scenarios that are genuinely exciting, swinging off of chandeliers, not clearing dungeons. That is why I used to subscribe.
I find that reading through pages of history lessons and over descriptive text, crowd what I am really looking for, a core ideas that my players will have fun with.
I suspect your preaching to a very hostile audience. What your describing does sound a lot like whats aimed for in the Delve format. Essentially a system that makes it so the DM has all the encounters laid out in a format that emphasizes ease of use. The idea being that the DM can pick up an adventure and be putting his players through it it with as little as 30 or 35 minutes prep.
The price of this being that it makes the material difficult to follow or understand in its larger context. Its unusually difficult, with the Delve format, to figure out where all the encounters fit into the adventures over all plot line.
In any case those who would agree with you, and hence would like what the Delve format does, have likely moved on, by and large, leaving behind an even higher concentration of posters that like history lessons and big words with their adventures - Paizo's APs obviously cater to such tastes.
there's a dish called gooducken which is a goose with a duck stuffed in it and a hen stuffed inside both
I thought that was turducken.
there's a dish called gooducken which is a goose with a duck stuffed in it and a hen stuffed inside bothI thought that was turducken.
That would be the variation with turkey as the outer layer rather than goose.
It would be pretty silly for the name to refer to turkeys when made with goose...In any event, the dish is utterly ridiculous. It's too dense to easily avoid overcooking and drying out, though I suppose the oiler duck in the middle is intended to ameliorate that somewhat. Gimme a brined bird any day.
And not to belabor the whole normal vocabulary thing here, but I can walk into any Sears or Target stores (and probably K-Mart) and find myself one or more tureens to choose from... and they'll be called tureens. I'd be willing to bet that anybody working bridal registries knows exactly what one is. I would also expect legions of foodies to know exactly what one is too.
Target even has some marzipan candies too.
...
The price of this being that it makes the material difficult to follow or understand in its larger context. Its unusually difficult, with the Delve format, to figure out where all the encounters fit into the adventures over all plot line.In any case those who would agree with you, and hence would like what the Delve format does, have likely moved on, by and large, leaving behind an even higher concentration of posters that like history lessons and big words with their adventures - Paizo's APs obviously cater to such tastes.
I think you summed it up quite well. I have noticed a different type of adventurer/reader from Paizo, I can't imagine the average roleplayer lining up to be part of a Adventuring "Society", my how prestigious. I am obviously looking for something different then what Paizo offers.
If by delve format you mean dungeon crawls, I would say that the reason I loved many Paizo adventures was that they were not dungeon crawls.
The many players I know and DM for do not want Dungeon crawls, they want interesting situations to roleplay in. Interesting encounters are the goal, but history and vocabulary lessons are something I'd like to avoid.
If by delve format you mean dungeon crawls, I would say that the reason I loved many Paizo adventures was that they were not dungeon crawls.
The many players I know and DM for do not want Dungeon crawls, they want interesting situations to roleplay in. Interesting encounters are the goal, but history and vocabulary lessons are something I'd like to avoid.
The Delve format is a layout choice made by WotC in a few of their later 3.5 edition adventures. Each encounter was presented in a 2-page spread with the battle map, stat blocks, descriptive info, and tactics rather than leave them integrated with the rest of the room/exploration descriptive text of the module.
For some DMs, it worked OK, for others it did not. It did have a certain convenience once the encounter started, I felt, since most stuff I needed was on the two pages I had open. But it tended to divorce the encounter from the rest of its context in the module and required a bit of page flipping.
Director of Narrative
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In any event, the dish is utterly ridiculous. It's too dense to easily avoid overcooking and drying out, though I suppose the oiler duck in the middle is intended to ameliorate that somewhat. Gimme a brined bird any day.
Perhaps this might assist in providing moisture?
I can't believe I missed this thread for so long. I say this with pinky held high: huzzah for elitism! Pass the lexicon.
In any event, the dish is utterly ridiculous. It's too dense to easily avoid overcooking and drying out, though I suppose the oiler duck in the middle is intended to ameliorate that somewhat. Gimme a brined bird any day.Perhaps this might assist in providing moisture?
Well, really, what food isn't improved by the addition of bacon? And don't say ice cream. I'm still betting there may be good bacon-ice cream applications out there.
If by delve format you mean dungeon crawls, I would say that the reason I loved many Paizo adventures was that they were not dungeon crawls.
The many players I know and DM for do not want Dungeon crawls, they want interesting situations to roleplay in. Interesting encounters are the goal, but history and vocabulary lessons are something I'd like to avoid.
As Bill Dunn points, the Delve format is not specifically a Dungeon crawl but instead a style or layout used in adventures (any adventure) thats meant to emphasize ease of use during tactical encounters. This comes with a price in terms of ease of use and understanding outside of the encounters. Grander over arcing plot lines are harder for the DM to follow and hence its more difficult for the DM to riff off the material and modify the over arcing plot lines and such.
My feeling is the format is great for the DM thats time pressed and is happiest to just figure out what the players next three or four encounters are going to be shortly before play. The Delve Format will make that style of DMing a snap.
On the other hand it really does not easily lend itself to modification so if your the kind of DM that wants to take such material and incorporate your own significant spin on it. Maybe by converting it to a different campaign setting or maybe you want to step back and look at how the actions of the PCs and monsters are going to interact with the politics of nearby cities or sum such.
Essentially the Delve format locks the encounters down so they really need to play out as described. Thats great for a DM thats short on prep time and was not planning on modifying them any way and hard on the DM that looks at adventures more as a frame work and plans to put some kind of spin on them to suite his or her own tastes or campaign.
Jeremy,
Thanks for highlighting what I missed in Bill's post. I agree absolutely that there is a distinction to be made between a delve and a dungeon crawl. I have certainly been a player in delves that were far from dungeon crawls.
As Bill Dunn points, the Delve format is not specifically a Dungeon crawl but instead a style or layout used in adventures (any adventure) thats meant to emphasize ease of use during tactical encounters. This comes with a price in terms of ease of use and understanding outside of the encounters. Grander over arcing plot lines are harder for the DM to follow and hence its more difficult for the DM to riff off the material and modify the over arcing plot lines and such.My feeling is the format is great for the DM thats time pressed and is happiest to just figure out what the players next three or four encounters are going to be shortly before play. The Delve Format will make that style of DMing a snap.
On the other hand it really does not easily lend itself to modification so if your the kind of DM that wants to take such material and incorporate your own significant spin on it. Maybe by converting it to a different campaign setting or maybe you want to step back and look at how the actions of the PCs and monsters are going to interact with the politics of nearby cities or sum such.
Essentially the Delve format locks the encounters down so they really need to play out as described. Thats great for a DM thats short on prep time and was not planning on modifying them any way and hard on the DM that looks at adventures more as a frame work and plans to put some kind of spin on them to suite his or her own tastes or campaign.
Interesting. I think the Delve format is similar to what D&D is currently doing with their adventures. The whole section just for encounters makes it feels like a mini game.
I want a cool story, a cool hook, an original idea and and adventure that puts it all together (just like paizo always did in Dungeon, but without the 3 extra pages of fluff).
I sometimes look through my old dungeons ( I have almost all of them) and when I am sifting through to find adventures I have to skip past the first page and a half every time. It's always some story about how a hundred years ago some NPC found an item and yada yada the the NPC or the item is in this adventure. I have my own campaign with my own backstory, I'd just like the adventure please :) Isn't that the whole point of a generic setting?
I want a cool story, a cool hook, an original idea and and adventure that puts it all together (just like paizo always did in Dungeon, but without the 3 extra pages of fluff).I sometimes look through my old dungeons ( I have almost all of them) and when I am sifting through to find adventures I have to skip past the first page and a half every time....
Good luck with finding something that does fit what your looking for. If you do find the perfect product for your tastes try and post it here as there are probably some who know of this thread that agree with you and would like to know about such a product.
For myself - well what Paizo does suits me just fine. Like you I have my own campaign world but I generally find that having more fluff makes it easier for me to do a conversion rather then harder. I feel there isn't really any such thing as a truly generic setting. Generic just means the authors own version of stripped down sword and sorcery but even this has some kind of implied setting depending on the authors personal views.
Fluff, even fluff I won't use, highlights the underlying presumptions of the adventure. It allows me to see were the author is coming from and acts as a sort of checklist. For each significant point in the fluff I can ask myself whether or not this is true of my campaign world and what needs to be changed to fit this into my world.
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Is it a rule that this thread gets brought back once a year or something?
Sorry; that was me.
I was trawling the archives, and thought "MMMM, Marzipan!".That, and I wanted to know how Heathy made an AK-47 out of a slinky and a bar of soap. I'd have tried for some sort of double-flail.
We did make it a full year, to the day, too. 365 days, including the leap day. Weird.
See you guys next year. I'll have to subscribe to a new AP so I can complain about something.
Actually I have a few of the APs and wow. Too bad my group is playing 4E now...
As a side question, wouldn't it be easy for Paizo to create generic adventures that are really just stories and then provide a second booklet with stats for the different systems (e.g. pathfinder or 4.0)
I mean all I ever used dungeon for was the maps and the stories anyways, I guess that depends on the DM, my monsters die when I want them to, and they do enough damage to scare my pcs, other then that I don't need much stats :) Just cool story.
You cannot make a product that is dual-statted for 3.5 and 4E. It's not allowed. Legally. And suchlike.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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You cannot make a product that is dual-statted for 3.5 and 4E. It's not allowed. Legally. And suchlike.
And yet, Wolfgang Baur is doing something similar for the current Open Design commission; he's building to versions of the adventure, one in 3.5 and the other in 4th Edition. So there must be some exceptions to that rule.
You cannot make a product that is dual-statted for 3.5 and 4E. It's not allowed. Legally. And suchlike.And yet, Wolfgang Baur is doing something similar for the current Open Design commission; he's building to versions of the adventure, one in 3.5 and the other in 4th Edition. So there must be some exceptions to that rule.
I'm wondering about that as well. Could it be his design stance which does not exactly market a product but gives it to subscribers?
I can't believe this thread is still going.
Huzzah, huzzah and hoorah!
Actually, the bacon wrapped turkey-duck-hen thing could make a good monster with great big pointy teeth...ah, maybe not.
I'm glad I didn't mention the mundungus odour on that NPC as a clue.
I can feel an obscure word fest coming in the next adventure...
Writhes off to research...
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Actually, the bacon wrapped turkey-duck-hen thing could make a good monster with great big pointy teeth...ah, maybe not.
It could be like the infamous 'Russian Doll Monster' from the early days of White Dwarf Fiend Factory (you're a Brit, you remember the days when WD was an RPG mag, don't you, Rich? Huh?).
The PCs fight a Dire Boar; when it dies, it splits apart, and out hops an Axe-Beak, then it dies, and out pops a Velociraptor (sort of a duck, yeah?), then a Dire Chicken, then a Fiendish Hawk, then a Dire Wren, then...then...then...
<head explodes>
Yay! Our efforts have directly affected the actions of Pett! Another step completed in our Eeeevil Plan! MUAHAHAHA!
Not one day passes without my evil eye being cast over these boards and watching your foul plan escalate...
Actually, the bacon wrapped turkey-duck-hen thing could make a good monster with great big pointy teeth...ah, maybe not.It could be like the infamous 'Russian Doll Monster' from the early days of White Dwarf Fiend Factory (you're a Brit, you remember the days when WD was an RPG mag, don't you, Rich? Huh?).
The PCs fight a Dire Boar; when it dies, it splits apart, and out hops an Axe-Beak, then it dies, and out pops a Velociraptor (sort of a duck, yeah?), then a Dire Chicken, then a Fiendish Hawk, then a Dire Wren, then...then...then...
<head explodes>
Oh yes! Brilliant stuff, I'd forgotten all about the russian doll monster - that was fabulous. I do remember white dwarf from a long long time ago, alas even the Lichway issue wasn't the first one I bought.
Dire wren...hmmmm.
Slithers away to think and plot.
Mnaaaaaaaaar
I was just laughing at the idea that Tureen and Marzipan are two words that are commonly used. As I was saying years ago I suspect that they might not be as commonly used as some former Dungeon subscribers might think. So I thought of a simple test, I did a search in google for "tureen marzipan", I mean these words are so common that they should be all over the Internet right?
http://www.google.ca/search?q=tureen+marzipan&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8& ;aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Yep. Listing three has this wonderful sentence: "In Geneva, people buy chocolate tureens filled with marzipan vegetables in December, to commemorate the "Escalade" of 1602, when the city beat off a night attack by the Duke of Savoy. The tureen represents the pot of soup which a heroic housewife, Mère Royaume, hurled onto the heads of the invading troops!"
Looks like Ms. Royaume made a good improvised weapons check, scoring a critical hit. That or she'd taken ranks in the Hausfrau prestige class.
I was just laughing at the idea that Tureen and Marzipan are two words that are commonly used. As I was saying years ago I suspect that they might not be as commonly used as some former Dungeon subscribers might think. So I thought of a simple test, I did a search in google for "tureen marzipan", I mean these words are so common that they should be all over the Internet right?
http://www.google.ca/search?q=tureen+marzipan&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8& ;aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
You mean that you tried to google the two words _together_? That will certainly skew your results!
Marzipan gets 2,020,000 results.
Tureen gets 639,000 results.
But of course they're uncommon words. *roll eyes*
I wish they would have added more obscure big words than they did, back when there were such things as Dungeon and Dragon Magazines. That goes for D&D in general actually; not just these mags - I love the vocabulary boost D&D has given me over the course of my life. How many 6th graders know what probosces are and have never encountered a stirge? I can't think of any publication(s) that taught more people how to read more big words.
...without ever teaching them how to pronounce them! I mean honestly, "por-TICK-you-liss"?! That's a whole extra unsolicited syllable! "Portcullis," like the legendary cyclops, has JUST ONE I, dammit!
Anyone know how to pronounce "geas"? "dweomer"? I didn't think so. (But please prove me wrong - I have been wondering about those 2 for years now).
Kang
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Anyone know how to pronounce "geas"? "dweomer"? I didn't think so.
For my group, it was somewhere between "rhymes with ice" and GUY-uhs; DWEE-mer.
I'd just wish that earlier editions used words correctly. Original D&D had a "wand of lightening" that, to our surprise, shot bolts of electricity rather than making things weigh less or appear less dark.
And is there anything about a "continual light" that seems regular and intermittent? Maybe they meant "continuous light".
(Hey, you kids, get off my lawn.)
Anyone know how to pronounce "geas"? "dweomer"? I didn't think so.
For the first one, our group usually goes with "Jees" (rhymes - sort of - with "grease").
For the second one, we pronounce it the same as Chris' group: "DWEE-mer".
Anyone know how to pronounce "geas"? "dweomer"? I didn't think so. (But please prove me wrong - I have been wondering about those 2 for years now).
KangGay-ass (no doubt the board filters will shoot that one down - LOL)
Dwey-o-meyr.
Umm... I thought it was gee-ass and dwee-oh-mur?
As a side question, wouldn't it be easy for Paizo to create generic adventures that are really just stories and then provide a second booklet with stats for the different systems (e.g. pathfinder or 4.0)
As long as they don't use them "big words" in their stories, right?
*rollseyes*
That's what I'm talking about! This is so gratifying; normally when I post something in a forum, the thread immediately stops getting any replies and falls off the bottom of the page into obscurity forever... I was starting to think it was me, but you guys really came through here.
GEAS:
- somewhere between "rhymes with ice" and GUY-uhs
- "Jees" (rhymes - sort of - with "grease")
- Gay-ass (no doubt the board filters will shoot that one down - LOL)
- "GHEEZ"
- Umm... I thought it was gee-ass...?
DWEOMER:
- DWEE-mer (*3)
- Dwey-o-meyr
- Umm... I thought it was... dwee-oh-mur?
FTR, I've always tried to avoid having to pronounce geas, but if forced I've been known to go with "quest" :o)
OK, in all seriousness I say "Jee-uss" and "Dwee-uh-mur" but have no idea if these are correct.
Wow, a surprising near-consensus among the dweomer-pronouncers! but for Geas, every single poster offered a different pronunciation(!). I can't remember what my point was, but I think it was something along the lines of "Yes! We want more big words in our D&D stuff, but please include the phonetic spelling when introducing a new one if it seems tricky, especially if it's not in your typical dictionary (and believe me, I have tried looking up both of these ones)"...
Oh yeah, maybe it was actually more along the lines of how you'll never find a bigger group of people pronouncing more long and obscure words... incorrectly... than D&D gamers. But at least we know how to use those words properly in writing! I honestly believe it's a step up from the norm.
PS. I have never been to Germany, or Europe in general for that matter, but I have eaten marzipan at a D&D session. It's quite delicious. But it was not served in a tureen.
Here's a new one (to me, relatively), while we're discussing big words from the dining room: Those things you put on your table to protect the table from a hot pot you're setting down? You might think this is trivial, but they're called trivets. Who knew they weren't just called thingies that go under hot pots to protect the table?
Kang
Umm... I thought it was gee-ass and dwee-oh-mur?Doesn't matter; you'd fail your save against them both anyway.
:)
*I* wouldn't, but Fayne probably would, yeah... wait until he gets a permanent protection from evil/good/chaos/law going!
I wish they would have added more obscure big words than they did, back when there were such things as Dungeon and Dragon Magazines. Kang
Hmmm,
then I shall have to try to breathe life into your wish Kang...
Rich
Wow, a surprising near-consensus among the dweomer-pronouncers! but for Geas, every single poster offered a different pronunciation(!).
I've always pronounced them:
GEE-us (with a hard letter G)Dwo-mur (rhymes with Homer)
Here's a new one (to me, relatively), while we're discussing big words from the dining room: Those things you put on your table to protect the table from a hot pot you're setting down? You might think this is trivial, but they're called trivets. Who knew they weren't just...
I knew that word already! :)
At the risk of raising the thread's elitism by another Megasnob, I'll admit that I'm a gourmet/foodie, and that I have a great love for words. Hence my not batting an eyelash at the words which sparked off this thread in the first place.
Well, I'll not post here then, as I can easily generate about 15 Megasnobs per hour when in full flow.
Tureen, propensity, marzipan. All these words and more bend to my will and articulation.
And that's even if I get the grammar wrong.
Don't worry. I haven't got the grammar wrong.
Anyone know how to pronounce "geas"? "dweomer"? I didn't think so. (But please prove me wrong - I have been wondering about those 2 for years now).
Kang
Geas is a Gaelic word, pronoounced "Gay-sh". In the original Irish, it referred to actions that were taboo. Violating one's geas would cause serious supernatural problems.
Here's a new one (to me, relatively), while we're discussing big words from the dining room: Those things you put on your table to protect the table from a hot pot you're setting down? You might think this is trivial, but they're called trivets. Who knew they weren't just...I knew that word already! :)
At the risk of raising the thread's elitism by another Megasnob, I'll admit that I'm a gourmet/foodie, and that I have a great love for words. Hence my not batting an eyelash at the words which sparked off this thread in the first place.
I use the word "trivets" pretty regularly, though did get a bit boggled once when one of my gamers didn't know what I was asking for while I was holding a hot pot.
And I once had a roommate go off on me for using "antimacassar" in a sentence rather than say "anti-hair-oil doily thing that goes on the headrest of the recliner."
Of course I think what really annoyed him is that when he wanted backup on "No one knowing such words," he asked my mother if she knew what an antimacassar was, and her answer was "Yeah, one of those" and what was worse was that he knew English wasn't her first language.
