Just wondering how it is going for those add guns?
And what rules are you guys using for your black powder weapons. Does making them an exotic proficiency make sense to anyone?
When I use them in a campaign (which is rare, since they usually don't fit in with the setting), I run them mostly as described in the DMG on pg. 144-145. I require separate Exotic Weapon Proficiency feats for pistol and musket, require two full-round actions to load (doubled for non-proficient use, Rapid Reload can reduce this to one full-round action), and add misfire rules (misfire on natural 1-2, or more depending on conditions; roll 2d6, 2-3 gun explodes doing weapon damage to holder, 4-7 shot stuck in barrel requiring careful cleaning before it can be used again, 8-12 shot hangs fire for 1d3 rounds). I also double the effect of the Point Blank Shot feat when using firearms.
This helps capture the feel of early firearms, IMO: powerful, but slow and touchy weapons.
In my ST campaign, I encourage the use of guns, which I feel are appropriate to the flavor.
They work mostly as the DMG says, except there is a firearms maintenance skill, and each gun, depending on its complexity, or parts added gets a fail rating somewhere from 1-10. If a 1-10 is rolled on the shot, the gunslinger rolls a DC 15 (+number of days since last maintained) firearms maintenance check. IF he succeeds, the gun simply misfires (expending the ammo & wasting the player's turn). If he fails, the gun is jammed and useless until a successful DC 20 maintenance check is rolled.
So far, I have not had problems with the addition of guns. I have a pistol wielder and a rifleman, and both of them use their guns sparingly, but to nice effect. An occasional critical inspires much excitement, while the rare fail (especially for the pistoleer) provokes much gnashing of teeth. Fun is had by all, and nobody gets hurt (except savage pirates) in the end.
I'm going to have them also. I'll keep them as exotic weapons but may include a few magical ones that don't hinder those without the Feat (I can't think of the name for the that magical bonus but I know I have it around in my notes).
I'm going to stick with matchlocks and wheellocks.
I'm using Monte Cook's rules for firearms for a dwarf ranger in my Age of Worms campaign (yes, he wants his character to be like a Dwarf Hunter from WoW). I allow the Rapid Reload feat, and I allow characters to retrain as they go up levels (PHB2), so he can slowly shift his firearm proficiency to the more expensive and interesting firearms. So far it has been completely reasonable. I expect I'll use the same rules for STAP when I run it.
www.montecook.com/images/Technology.pdf
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Interesting. I'll have to check out that PDF.
I statted up a bunch of firearms (mostly cribbed from previous editions) as well as a flamethrower (after watching the History Channel) over on the WotC boards a while ago to compliment the musket and pistol from the DMG. Variety being the spice of life, and all that.
You can find them here (firearms) and here (flamethrower).
In my campaign we'll be using the bombards (primitive cannons) from Stormwrack but not any personal firearms. We haven't had a chance to try them out yet, since we're still on TINH, but I'll let you know how it works out when we do.
And what rules are you guys using for your black powder weapons. Does making them an exotic proficiency make sense to anyone?
Not to me I intend to use the firearms rules from Skull and Bones, where some firearms are simple weapons other martial and only weird ones are exotic.
I am starting Savage Tide soon (20th of Jan).
I want to introduce firearms into this as a fairly common weapon, but I do not want to have to rejig all the NPCs feats for this, so I am making firearms Martial Weapons.
As a rule of thumb, any NPC with a light crossbow or a shortbow (composite or otherwise) gets a pistol instead. Anyone with a heavy crossbow or a longbow (again, composite or otherwise) gets a rifle equivalent.
In any case, I seem to have opened a can of worms for my players. To be perfectly candid, I have not had a lot of experience with games where firearms have been used extensively, so I am forced to follow my players lead on this. Unfortunately, we still have not agreed on a ruleset to abide by. We have at our disposal Iron Kingdoms rules, Freeport rules and the Skull and Bones book from Green Ronin.
I've not seen all of the rulesets, but I am particularly enamoured with the Freeport rules for various reasons and some of my players like the IK rules. To be frank, I don't like IK because:
a) Faster reload times means that bow users cannot keep up.
b) An overall high mortality rate on both sides due to avg damage per round.
c) Breech loaded weapons (for me) wreck the feel.
d) Cannons require vast amounts of black powder to operate and potentially turn any ship/fortification into a bomb by a fire using spellcaster.
Are my misgivings valid? I don't actually own the IK rulebooks, but I understand that the guns listed therein can be reloaded in 1 or 2 standard actions. That seems awfully fast. Can anyone confirm?
Also, has anyone had any experience with their players (Ranger Archer wannabes) substituting their archery skills with a firearm? I don't think that this is a bad idea myself, but I would like to restict it to Dwarf, Gnome and maybe Human. I don't see an Elf or a Half Elf fitting into this category. Similarly, I also don't see Arcane Archers, Peerless Archers or Order of the Bow Initiates substituting their bows for firearms either.
Lastly, has anyone grabbed any prestige classes out of other campaigns, particularly those that are centred around firearms? I personally can't think of any specifics, but I just want to be prepared.
Comments and suggestions welcome!
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I am starting Savage Tide soon (20th of Jan).
I want to introduce firearms into this as a fairly common weapon, but I do not want to have to rejig all the NPCs feats for this, so I am making firearms Martial Weapons.
If you do treat them as Martial weapon, I suggest that--if the firearm rules you intend to use treats them as Exotic weapons (I don't remember--I looked at the IK rules for firearms long ago and decided I was better off just expanding the list of firearms in the DMG)--to reduce the die size of the weapons by one increment (ie, 1d10 would become 1d8). Most Exotic weapons tend to require that addition feat because they're better than Martial weapons, so one needs to dial them down to balance them as martial weapons.
Are my misgivings valid? I don't actually own the IK rulebooks, but I understand that the guns listed therein can be reloaded in 1 or 2 standard actions. That seems awfully fast. Can anyone confirm?
Historically, trained troops could reload a flintlock musket in about 12-18 seconds (I forget if that was with breech- or muzzle-loading muskets, though): 2-3 full rounds. This being a game and not a simulation of reality, simplifying it to 2 full round actions is fine with me (with Rapid Reload knocking that down to 1 full action). Allowing someone to take a move action while loading a loose-powder firearm breaks my suspension of disbelief.
Historically, trained troops could reload a flintlock musket in about 12-18 seconds (I forget if that was with breech- or muzzle-loading muskets, though): 2-3 full rounds.
Not sure where you are getting that information from but during the Napolionic Wars, the British Army were proud of the fact they managed two shots per minute which would be 30 seconds loading time or 5 rounds, so without rigorous military training you should be looking at nearly double that (at the time the British Army was the only military training with live ammo).
Skull and Bones has load times of 10 to 12 rounds which can be brought down with a firearms training feat (each time you get the feat it reduces it by one round, to a minimum of one). I am going with Skull and Bones, but the Firearms training will half the load times (but can only be bought once). This seems a reasonable compromise.
From experience IK becomes a problem when you introduce multibarrel weapons which are in one of the expansion books. This means you generally don´t need to worry about reloading during combat. Also as you can empty multiple barrels at once you can do rediculas damage.
I love those 'combo' weapons. Dagger Pistols and Hammer Pistols, etc. I have seen replicas of these weapons and they just look ready for the Savage Tide theme!
According to the DMG, those Renaissance weapons take a standard action to reload - quite unrealistic. This leads to one shot every round (6 seconds), and if you treat them as crossbows and allow the rapid reload feat, it gets completely absurd. I just can´t imagine a shoot-reload-shoot routine with loose powder weapons in a mere 6 seconds... And the DMG speaks of loose powder in powder horns.
I would perhaps keep them as exotic weapons, and rather than having -4 for unskilled use, I would lower the fire rate dramatically - say, once every six rounds.
The damage potential is quite high, with 1d10/x3 for a single-handed weapon, and a range increment of 50ft. But this is offset by the high price for these weapons (250 for a pistol and 35 gp for two pound of powder, at one ounce per load, and 10 bullets cost 3 gp), and the problem you´ll have especially in a sea-bound campaign to keep the powder dry, yet also keeping your ship from getting blown up by a stray fireball.
I´d guess that at lower levels ranged combat gets more important due to firearms and their potential lethality, but at higher levels, the multiple attacks of a high level fighter get more important - and spells deal still more damage. And the hassle with the powder adds to the relative minor importance in the long run.
I seem to remember a ruling from AD&D2 that firearms dealing the maximum damage roll got a reroll and got to add that damage to the original roll, to reflect the potential lethality of firearms - but these firearms always had a mishap on a rolled "1", like getting stuck or even blowing up in the users face. It might have been in the spelljammer setting.
Stefan
Historically, trained troops could reload a flintlock musket in about 12-18 seconds (I forget if that was with breech- or muzzle-loading muskets, though): 2-3 full rounds.Not sure where you are getting that information from but during the Napolionic Wars, the British Army were proud of the fact they managed two shots per minute which would be 30 seconds loading time or 5 rounds, so without rigorous military training you should be looking at nearly double that (at the time the British Army was the only military training with live ammo).
Then I was probably thinking of breech loaders/paper cartridges, which were developed later.
Four rounds to load (one to fire) will give you two shots a minute. If you want more historically acurate treatment of muzzle-loaders, then that should be the best anyone can do without magic. Doubling that to eight rounds without the Rapid Reload feat and tripling it to twelve rounds without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat sounds like it would fit with Skull and Bones fairly well.
I seem to remember a ruling from AD&D2 that firearms dealing the maximum damage roll got a reroll and got to add that damage to the original roll, to reflect the potential lethality of firearms - but these firearms always had a mishap on a rolled "1", like getting stuck or even blowing up in the users face. It might have been in the spelljammer setting.
"Open-ended damage" was basically a critical hit system for firearms without the "critical hit" mechanic.
Player's Option: Combat and Tactics, which is where I took the missfire rules in my post above, had a better system, IMO. It used different missfire chances depending on the type of firearm: hand-match, matchlock, snaplock, wheellock, or flintlock (from earliest/least reliable to latest/most reliable). PO:C&T also added the property of armor penetration to heavy/light crossbows and firearms (depending on weapon and range increment, you could reduce the AC bonus a target gains from armor and natural armor by 2, 5, 10, or completely).
According to the DMG, those Renaissance weapons take a standard action to reload - quite unrealistic.
I'll just point out here that cranking up a heavy crossbow with a metal crank was not historically the fastest thing to do either.
In reality - if we are talking about a well trained user, then all weapons really prettty much pale in comparison to a well made bow until probably sometime after the introduction of rifled muskets.
I'd worry more about keeping the weapons balanced then making them truely historically authentic.
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According to the DMG, those Renaissance weapons take a standard action to reload - quite unrealistic.I'll just point out here that cranking up a heavy crossbow with a metal crank was not historically the fastest thing to do either.
In reality - if we are talking about a well trained user, then all weapons really prettty much pale in comparison to a well made bow until probably sometime after the introduction of rifled muskets.
I'd worry more about keeping the weapons balanced then making them truely historically authentic.
That sums up my opinion, too. :)
I'd worry more about keeping the weapons balanced then making them truely historically authentic.
To a degree, but I'd like to keep them as one shot weapons at the start of combat then into melee. So as you swing across to the enemies deck you fire your pistol, then attack with the cutlass.
I want the damage balanced so that it is comparable to just charging in. But the reload times high enough that it isn't worth reloading during combat. That's the sort of balance I'm looking for.
Then I'm considering adding a feat that lets you fire a one handed ranged weapon as part of a charge, so you get pistol and melee damage.
Then I'm considering adding a feat that lets you fire a one handed ranged weapon as part of a charge, so you get pistol and melee damage.
Off-hand Shot
Prerequisites: Dex 15+, Point Blank Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: When fighting with a melee weapon in your primary hand and a loaded hand-crossbow, light crossbow, or pistol firearm in your off-hand, you can fire the crossbow or pistol as part of a full attack action without drawing an attack of opportunity. Both the primary weapon and off-hand weapon are at a -2 penalty, in addition to any other penalties for firing with one hand, non-proficiency, etc. You are also considered to be firing into combat.
Off-hand Shot
Prerequisites: Dex 15+, Point Blank Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: When fighting with a melee weapon in your primary hand and a loaded hand-crossbow, light crossbow, or pistol firearm in your off-hand, you can fire the crossbow or pistol as part of a full attack action without drawing an attack of opportunity. Both the primary weapon and off-hand weapon are at a -2 penalty, in addition to any other penalties for firing with one hand, non-proficiency, etc. You are also considered to be firing into combat.
I already allow two weapon fighting to be used with range weapons, so that feat in itself isn't something I would use, but it is a handy guide to allowing a single shot combined with a charge.
Personally I wouldn't allow firearms in a game that I was running. You end up with two choices: Make them better to have than existing missile weapons; or restrict them to such an extent that no-one wants them.
Then again I much prefer the fantasy/middle ages feel of the game rather than renaissance.
IMC, one PC has one flintlock. It is a very rare item and he had to seek out a gnome specialist for the smoke powder. It has added a unique flair to his character but it has not had a huge mechanical impact to the game. I grabbed the stats from Iron Cross (I think). It basically does 1d6 damage, takes a full round to reload. I did not bother requiring any feats or skills to use it.
IMC, one PC has one flintlock. It is a very rare item and he had to seek out a gnome specialist for the smoke powder. It has added a unique flair to his character but it has not had a huge mechanical impact to the game. I grabbed the stats from Iron Cross (I think). It basically does 1d6 damage, takes a full round to reload. I did not bother requiring any feats or skills to use it.
Essentially like a light crossbow?
The Arcanis flintlocks are fairly decent and the rules have stood up to heavy use in the Living Arcanis campaign.
SJE
Essentially like a light crossbow?
Yes. A loud, smelly, expensive, delicate light crossbow. The rogue loves it!
My savage tide game started without guns. However, I recently had a wonderful idea.
Demogorgon has an alliance with Dagon for knowledge. Demogorgon is a bit of tinkerer/scientiest/engineer/biochemist/etc. Demogorgon is intelligent enough to see the pro's and con's of most situations.
So, what this boils down to, is that through knowledge acquired from Dagon, some of Demogorgon's agents will have accquired a strange new technology.
Guns.
The look on my players face in Tides of Dread when Vanthus takes a pot-shot at one of them with a flintlock pistol will be priceless.
You end up with two choices: Make them better to have than existing missile weapons; or restrict them to such an extent that no-one wants them.
Surely there is a third option to balance them against existing ranged weapons, so that some people consider taking them but not everyone does.
After all there is room for shortbows, longbows, crossbows, repeating crossbows, slings, etc.
The balancing factor for firearms seems to be loading times, verses higher damage. So they won't suit an archer that wants to make use of a full attack, but might suit someone that wants a good single attack.
I already allow two weapon fighting to be used with range weapons, so that feat in itself isn't something I would use, but it is a handy guide to allowing a single shot combined with a charge.Off-hand Shot
Prerequisites: Dex 15+, Point Blank Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: When fighting with a melee weapon in your primary hand and a loaded hand-crossbow, light crossbow, or pistol firearm in your off-hand, you can fire the crossbow or pistol as part of a full attack action without drawing an attack of opportunity. Both the primary weapon and off-hand weapon are at a -2 penalty, in addition to any other penalties for firing with one hand, non-proficiency, etc. You are also considered to be firing into combat.
In the RAW, you can't make a melee weapon attack and a ranged weapon attack in the same round with Two-Weapon Fighting, just two melee or two ranged. This feat lets you do so AND lets you avoid an attack of opportunity from making a ranged weapon attack in melee. This is a variant of a feat (Off-hand Throw) I created for 3.0 to get around the "melee OR ranged, not both" restriction.
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I attempted to tease my PC's with a pistol that they found tucked away hidden with Lavinia's father's possessions. I played it up as some exotic item that he had collected on his many travels. I had planned on using the rules in the D20 Past book. They were curious at first and I had planned on giving them plenty of downtime to study, train, and, if they were curious enough, try the gun out. Then once the adventure got started they lost interest. I would still like to use them sparingly so I may have them show up once my group sets sail for the Island. They'll have plenty of time at sea to learn and train on how to use them if they want to. Maybe one of the passangers has a firearm and teaches them if they want to.
The Classic WFRP way around slow pistol reload times is simply to buy more pistols and carry them loaded. Fire then drop, or even even shoot two handed for added style points!
With a Quiver of Ehlonna golfbag, you can do the same with Rifles!
SJE
I'm currently running STAP, my players are near the end of SWW. Only two characters have used guns, One NPC and the ships captain, who's PC is an avid hunter (It didn't take much for me to talk her into a gun). One of the things that I've done with the NPC (Based loosly off of Jayne Cobb from Firefly and Serenity) is have him carrying a wide range of period firearms. muskets, pistols, a double barrel blunderbus, a pepper box pistol, ect. he wears a bandolier with about a dozen different guns, plus caries the blunderbus and the musket strapped to his back. Most of the PC's steer clear of him in a fight due to the instability of the weapons and their tendencies to explode in your hand (Natural one. We play 2ED). Recently the team has run the scarlet brotherhood blocade, and when everyone jumped up to use the ships cannons, they found the only the captain and the NPC knew how to fire them. This led to a crash course in firearms 101, and the first mate blowing up two cannons in the firefight.
WHat I've started doing with the NPC is having his stuff modified. his musket now has a magical plus, a magical bayonet, and a mace ball built into the butt of the gun. He's bought different forms of magical shot (Basically any variation of an arrow) as well as some that are hardened beads from a necklace of missiles. His tactics are very simple shoot and drop. With playing 2ED a round is a full minute, so firing and reloading in a single round is Ok. (In colonial times a good soldier could get off three shots with a musket a minute.) I want to change how the PCs think of guns, not as some exotic weapon, but as something as effective as a bow or crossbow.