RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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The Faith Healing thread stirred up a debate about clerics who worship pantheons instead of specific deities and how different DMs handle this topic.
My take on it is that worshipping a pantheon is fine as long as the pantheon has a common theme (such as the Elven Pantheon in Forgotten Realms or Eberron's Sovereign Host). The original poster of the Faith Healing thread stated that his character (a cleric) worshipped the 'Greyhawk Pantheon' which I take to mean as 'all the gods in the Greyhawk setting.' I might be wrong about this, but it seems to me like that is WAY too broad of a pantheon to allow a cleric to worship and still gain the benefits of spellcasting and domains.
I started this thread to get people talking about this subject. I'm aware that there are rules for following pantheons but do other DMs out there require their cleric players to choose a specific deity to pray to? Do you place restrictions on pantheons like I do? Or would you allow 'the Greyhawk pantheon' to be a valid deity selection for the cleric in question? I'm interested to see the opinions of others out there on this matter and your input will be invaluable in future games (who knows, maybe you'll convince me that I'm wrong).
I allow pantheons (and actually often favor them considering how polytheism plays out in many settings) versus following an individual deity. However, "the Greyhawk Pantheon" wouldn't work for me if it included all 100+ deities of Oerth. The Suel gods are not generally in the same pantheon as the Olman, Oeridian, or Flan gods, for instance. I generally break the gods up into cultural and/or regional pantheons. So the Yeomanry, as an example, might have a pantheon that includes Flan, Suel, and Oeridian gods to reflect it's diverse cultural heritage. These regional gods are actually laid out in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, making this job fairly easy.
Of course, by "the Greyhawk Pantheon" one might simply mean the deities listed in the PHB. That'd be a sufficiently narrow pantheon to work for me.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Of course, by "the Greyhawk Pantheon" one might simply mean the deities listed in the PHB. That'd be a sufficiently narrow pantheon to work for me.
Don't you find the idea of worshipping deities with diametrically opposed alignments and agendas to be somewhat paradoxical though? I mean, a cleric who worshipped only the deities in the PHB would still be worshipping both Pelor AND Vecna. Bear in mind, this is WORSHIP, not acknowledgement. The cleric prays to these various deities for spells. It seems unlikely that Pelor would grant spells to someone who also venerated his arch-nemesis.
To put it in real-world perspective (and not to offend or spark off-topic debate), it'd be like someone saying grace at the dinner table praying to God and Satan at the same time. It just doesn't work, imo.
Don't you find the idea of worshipping deities with diametrically opposed alignments and agendas to be somewhat paradoxical though? I mean, a cleric who worshipped only the deities in the PHB would still be worshipping both Pelor AND Vecna. Bear in mind, this is WORSHIP, not acknowledgement. The cleric prays to these various deities for spells. It seems unlikely that Pelor would grant spells to someone who also venerated his arch-nemesis.
To put it in real-world perspective (and not to offend or spark off-topic debate), it'd be like someone saying grace at the dinner table praying to God and Satan at the same time. It just doesn't work, imo.
Not at all. You'll find this very thing common in many polytheistic religions, animist faiths, etc. The "good" gods are revered out of love and admiration, while the "evil" gods are placated out of fear and a desire to avoid bad things.
I'm loath to bring in real-world religious examples, as some may take offense, but someone that offers a sacrifice of thanks to the sun-god for bringing life, and another sacrifice to the death-god to ward off harm does indeed occur. The problem we often face is looking at religion in general through monotheistic, black-and-white lenses (which is in many ways greatly influenced by the rise of Zoroastrianism in the 5th-6th century B.C.).
Well, the problem with worshipping the "Greyhawk pantheon" is that it is made of several radically different groupings of deities. I could see worshiping a racial pantheon - Baklunish, Suel, Olman, Elven, etc.. The alignment of the pantheon would be neutral in most cases, depending on the general leanings of the assembled deities.
For instance, the Baklunish pantheon would be a strongly Neutral force (allowing any Neutral Cleric), with likely the scimitar as a favored weapon. Favored domains of Baklunish clerics would be Knowledge and Luck (though I suppose they could pick any Baklunish domain)
The Suel pantheon would be, despite the cultural leanings of the Suel themselves, Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Good. I'm not sure what their favored weapon would be, though. Favored domains would be Strength and Travel.
The Flan pantheon would Neutral, with strong elements of Good. The sickle would be an ideal favored weapon for the Flan. Domains would be Animal and Plant.
The Oeridian pantheon would be Neutral Good, and the longsword would be the favored weapon. Domains would be Knowledge and Travel.
So the idea can work -- the question is how to limit a pantheon-worshiping cleric. After all, he's then able to pick and choose any domain he wants from the whole pantheon...
Perhaps he would have to give up some Cleric element:
Domain powers
Spontaneous spell conversion
Turning
Some spell slots
Skills
Good Fortitude save
d8 Hit Die
What do you think?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Not at all. You'll find this very thing common in many polytheistic religions, animist faiths, etc. The "good" gods are revered out of love and admiration, while the "evil" gods are placated out of fear and a desire to avoid bad things.
I'm loath to bring in real-world religious examples, as some may take offense, but someone that offers a sacrifice of thanks to the sun-god for bringing life, and another sacrifice to the death-god to ward off harm does indeed occur. The problem we often face is looking at religion in general through monotheistic, black-and-white lenses (which is in many ways greatly influenced by the rise of Zoroastrianism in the 5th-6th century B.C.).
I will acknowledge the validity of your point. However, in D&D, the deities are known to be very real, very tangible entities. They speak directly to their faithful (through commune spells and the like) and they have very real, very active agendas. In a world where a paladin acting against his moral code will strip him of his divinely-imparted powers, it seems strange to think that a deity would continue to grant spells to a cleric who worshipped his enemies. This is the heart of my arguement.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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So the idea can work -- the question is how to limit a pantheon-worshiping cleric. After all, he's then able to pick and choose any domain he wants from the whole pantheon...
I don't even have a problem with that part, so I don't feel any mechanical adjustments to the class are necessary. Sure, by selecting a pantheon, you widen your available domains but, in the end, you still only get to select two. I don't have a problem with that aspect of things. As long as a cleric doesn't choose opposing domains (like Good and Evil, Chaos and Law, Healing and Death) I'm generally okay with it.
(Reposted from the Faith Healing thread)
Hey Fatespinner.
I totally hear you, man. Here's how I've worked it with my character:
My character, as a student of faith and religion, certainly recognizes the authority and spheres of influence of each of the Greyhawk gods and respects their domains and contributions to the pantheon as a whole. Each certainly has their place. I spent a lot of time while earning my degree studying ancient history and religion, and there are so many precedents for this in so many dynamic cultures that, in turn, influenced the way the game of D&D was written.
The Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Babylonians -they ALL had large pantheons and the preist therein respected the authority and domains of a wide assortement of gods -offering appropriate sacrifices to the proper realm of influence depending on who or what they were praying for.
Are you a generic priest in Greyhawk? If so, you spend a lot of your time administering to the faithful of many different religions. You can offer any appropriate sacraments that those followers of Boccob in your party need. Then, you volunteer in down time to overtake the upkeep of that wayside shrine of Fharlanghn that has fallen into disrepair just outside of town. He can remind the thief that he really should be donating proceeds to the church of Olidammara if he expects them to cough up those masterwork lockpicks, or he could volunteer nature spells during harvest by helping out those down-on-their-luck followers of Beory who have had a bad crop. When you pray, like in my earlier example -you ask for Pelor's blessing and he grants you, say, a light spell, before turning to Osprem to grant you obscuring mist for paying him homage. Need a speak with dead spell? Sure, you COULD ask Vecna, but you wouldn't want to be beholden to a god as untrustworthy as him, right? You could ask Wee Jas instead -she a bit more understanding of such matters. Alignment certainly does come into play here, and you aren't going to pay homage to evil deity -but you will certainly respect their roles in the great fabric of the universe. I wouldn't even see anything wrong with, say, administering last rites to a dying priest of Incabulos: "May the evil path you thread in life reap you the sour rewards of your god's foul afterlife...I know where you'll be going..."
In my case, my character is neutral, so that helps, but that doesn't have to be the case to work a character like this.
I could go on all day. I hope I've shed a little light on the subject for you...I really have found it to be a very rich roleplaying opportunity and I encourage you to open it up a little bit and let a character who wants to try it do so...
Fleece
For a polytheistic cleric, I wouldn't see any spells granted as coming from any specific god so much as the combined divine power of the whole pantheon. Such a cleric wouldn't get to choose domains from every god in the pantheon, but rather from a specific list that represents the pantheon as a whole (i.e. custom domain list created by the DM, so no need to further restrict the Cleric). If the overall pantheon leans toward Chaos and is nature-oriented, then perhaps the pantheon domains are Animal, Chaos, Plant, and Weather. A DM would obviously have to consider the overall character of the pantheon to come up with an appropriate list. If the character wants to revere the pantheon, but get different domains, he'd basically be a specialty priest. Such a character might violently oppose other elements of his own religion (as with a Pelorite opposing Nerull).
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The way I see it, you can look to the Dwarven pantheon as a great example. Even the evil member, Abattor (spelling?), has been noted to side with the rest of the family on major issues. So you can have a dwarvf who is generally good, but still pays the aforementioned token respect simply because he is a god and if Moradin lets him stick around, then so should you. This works really well when you consider the Dwarven Domain. If you wanted a cleric to worship the entire pantheon, just let him choose that domain, and then one other from among the list of the whole group's domains. You can take the same route with any race that has their own specific domain.
The real problem comes with humans. They don't have any single domain of their own (poor guys). In that case, I think it best to limit group deity worship to a very specific set of gods (a "family", a certain alignment, certain portfolio, etc.) and make sure they have a single common domain to choose from.
For example:
In Greyhawk, you could have a cleric who worships only good or neutral gods of magic (Boccob, Wee Ja, etc). You could give them the common domain of Magic, and then whatever. Or maybe a martial minded cleric who worships Heironeous, Kelanen, and Phaulkon. Or a traveling cleric who reveres Celestian, Dalt, and Fharlanghan. You could also have someone who worships Lendor and his immediate family.
In the Forgotten Realms, you could have a good cleric who worhsips the triad of Torm, Tyr, and Ilmater. They have been linked in various products already, so there is precedent for it.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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The way I see it, you can look to the Dwarven pantheon as a great example. Even the evil member, Abattor (spelling?), has been noted to side with the rest of the family on major issues. So you can have a dwarvf who is generally good, but still pays the aforementioned token respect simply because he is a god and if Moradin lets him stick around, then so should you. This works really well when you consider the Dwarven Domain. If you wanted a cleric to worship the entire pantheon, just let him choose that domain, and then one other from among the list of the whole group's domains. You can take the same route with any race that has their own specific domain.
The real problem comes with humans. They don't have any single domain of their own (poor guys). In that case, I think it best to limit group deity worship to a very specific set of gods (a "family", a certain alignment, certain portfolio, etc.) and make sure they have a single common domain to choose from.
For example:
In Greyhawk, you could have a cleric who worships only good or neutral gods of magic (Boccob, Wee Ja, etc). You could give them the common domain of Magic, and then whatever. Or maybe a martial minded cleric who worships Heironeous, Kelanen, and Phaulkon. Or a traveling cleric who reveres Celestian, Dalt, and Fharlanghan. You could also have someone who worships Lendor and his immediate family.
In the Forgotten Realms, you could have a good cleric who worhsips the triad of Torm, Tyr, and Ilmater. They have been linked in various products already, so there is precedent for it.
I agree with you 100%, Zombie. It isn't the idea of worshipping a pantheon that bothers me, it's the fact that 'pantheon' can sometimes be interpreted a little too loosely for my tastes.
The Paizo demon devoured my first reply to this (which was rather lengthy), so I will summarize:
Established pantheons (like those outlined in the FRCS) are fine but general pantheons like 'the Greyhawk pantheon' seemed too broad to me. Reading Fleece's response shed a lot of light on how this works, though, and I think I understand what he's going for. It's a functional idea and I can see how it would work. The fact that his character is neutral makes it MUCH more believable for me. I can see how a concept like this would work and I understand how the idea works though. For my games, however, I would prefer my players choose a more 'defined' pantheon than something so broad. Thank you all for your responses, however. This has been most informative.
I now realize that I should have posted my response on the other thread here.
No. Absolutely not. Personally, I despize the idea of a D&D cleric worshipping more than one god. At least, not in a "standard" setting, of which I am a big fan.
If you specifically state that you want to run your game with this alteration, I've got no problem with that, it doesn't affect my game in the slightest.
But without that statement being officially made, I would not allow clerics to worship anything but a single, recognized deity. That's just not D&D polytheism. There are certain elements of D&D in which I seek to emulate the real world as much as possible, and then there are those areas where I just accept that fantasy set forth by D&D is different. This is one of those areas. I don't know why I draw a distinction here. I just do.
It would take a strong and dedicated majority of players voting against me to convince me to change that house rule. I know that it's stated clearly in the core rules as an option, and normally, I give that source great heed. In this specific case, I don't care what they say or that I'm disobeying them. Like I said in the Faith Healing thread, I'd let ray guns in my game as soon as I let in clerics worshipping more than one god.
Don't try to apply logic to my argument; there isn't any. It's purely a subjective feeling.
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Most of us come from a background that accepts monotheism as a religious cultural norm. I know it's not all of us; I don't mean to be exclusionary with this statement.
I wonder if the whole cleric/deity relationship isn't at all influenced by this cultural reality. I wonder how, coming from a social reality based on a belief system of monotheism, one could even understand how a polytheistic system works.
Saern, I wouldn't say your position is combative or anything--you like to run it your way, and you allow others the right to run their way, so no problem. I would nit-pick (light-heartedly) that technically you are the one altering the game (as Fleece66 mentions above, it's allowed by Core rules).
Heathansson, I agree (see my earlier posts). Most Western folk have a very hard time really understanding polytheism. Arguably, a lot are actually dualistic rather than monotheist (placing near equal power to a "bad" as a "good" and don't even realize it).
Pantheistic worship and clerics make perfect sense to me, both in game and out, but I've studied religion a lot, and for a long time. Fatespinner's comment above ("in D&D, the deities are known to be very real, very tangible entities. They speak directly to their faithful (through commune spells and the like) and they have very real, very active agendas") actually illustrates to me the gap we often have in real-world religion--some (me sometimes, when my faith is strong) would say this statement is just as true for this world as for D&D (well, minus the commune spell).
If you want to convince yourself toward pantheistic worship sometime, read up on polytheistic religions and think about applying these cultural aspects to D&D (with the consideration that members of that faith truly believed in multiple, often physical deities).
Again, I don't want to dredge to deep in this, especially if anyone starts to take offense. But it is a favorite topic of discussion for me...
Director of Narrative
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Great thread(s). One thing however. The core rules regarding clerics don't necessarily talk about pantheism. The third sentence under the Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells in the cleric section says, "You may also choose for your cleric to have no deity." None. I've always read it as you are more in focus with a belief system or specific, to borrow the word from another game term, portfolio. In that case your domains are the driving factor in your belief system and those "spheres" are what you focus on.
I understand that deities are the ones who grant you divine spells as a cleric. However druids who cast divine spells gain their magic from an immensely broad source - nature. Everything is nature, well, almost everything.
I'd be more leery as a DM of a player drawing up an abstractionist cleric than one going for a polytheistic worshipper. With the former, one can try to make some crazy combination of domain powers just to min/max his way to glory - perhaps in hopes of becoming a deitiy in their own right. While with the latter is simply a caregiver of their people - as in Fleece66's idea of using the Suel pantheon.
The historical references to polytheism mentioned in this post and the other one are spot on. I especially liked the mention of the military chaplin, which I see a D&D PC cleric more like anyway. If clerics were like the priests and such in real life, there would be no adventuring involved. Roll your intimidate check for your damnation sermon. Give me your 872nd heal check for the day. Why not make an adventuring accountant?
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I agree with your points, Daigle. I also think the rules were possibly written under the same "mindset," with respect to min/maxing one's way to divine omnipotence being possible if the system were operated in a polytheistic paradigm.
Again, I'm just observing a certain cultural bias, not necessarily making a judgment about it or anyone in particular.
I just...notice stuff, and wonder about it.
Maybe...there's something there possible in the character retooling of the PHB II, for clerics operating in certain modes at certain junctures of their careers. One goes to a holy place, undergoes a holy ritual, and switches domains by switching to a different deity of a given pantheon as a new given focus.
For example, in a time of great pestilence, all the clergy undergo a certain ritual and gain the healing domain. Or war breaks out, and they meditate on the pantheon's war god and switch domains to help in battle.
If clerics were like the priests and such in real life, there would be no adventuring involved. Roll your intimidate check for your damnation sermon. Give me your 872nd heal check for the day. Why not make an adventuring accountant?
Heh, well, not all us preacher-types are that bad, and some of us actually do a little adventuring. Oh, and accountants are the bane of our existence... ;^)
Now, a bit more for the thread...one of the reasons polytheistic priests works for me in D&D is that I see (and the DMG supports) the majority of people in D&D society as Neutral rather than Good or Evil (at least with regard to humans). They may lean toward Lawful (them's good law-abiddin' folk) or Chaotic ("free spirits" and such) but are not in actuality much interested in Good (making personal sacrifices to help others) or Evil (debasing/destroying innocent life for fun and/or profit). As such, the typical Neutral D&D citizen will readily take to placating whatever gods are sufficient for daily life. After all, as was said earlier all the gods are known to be real. In this regard, a likewise Neutral cleric open to all deities (relevant to the community) is ideal for meeting the needs of the majority of D&D people. It just works for me, and makes a lot of sense.
EDIT: Oh, and in above posts where I say "pantheist" and such, I'm meaning the "belief in and worship of all gods." rather than the Pantheism view "God is all and all is God." Just a note for anyone that might know about (or be) Pantheist.
But without that statement being officially made, I would not allow clerics to worship anything but a single, recognized deity. That's just not D&D polytheism. There are certain elements of D&D in which I seek to emulate the real world as much as possible, and then there are those areas where I just accept that fantasy set forth by D&D is different. This is one of those areas. I don't know why I draw a distinction here. I just do.
I'm with you 100% on this one! The standard D&D gods have no unity and no common history and therefore there is no 'spiritual pathway' for a cleric to tread in order to worship all the gods. If, in your setting, you create a deific history that promotes some type of unity amongst them despite their dyametrically opposed alignments, I could see clerics worshipping them all. Even so, a cleric is likely to have favorites unless he/she remains true neutral; I can't imagine any good cleric uttering any more than a grudging, lip-service prayer to any evil god.
Tequila;
I couldn't disagree with your opening statement more. No common history with the standard D&D gods? Maybe a little more background reading is in order for ya'! I've been playing in the world of Greyhawk since the 80's and the pantheons of the core gameworld, from which the "standard" deities are drawn, is a rich, varied tapestry and VERY intricately connected. Multiple pantheons, sure (Suel, Flannish, etc), but all very connected on many subtle and not-so-subtle levels, especially as the world has aged and the population of Greyhawk has become less racially segregated.
I think maybe a distinction should have been made a little earlier. Rather than "a cleric who worships all gods" it should have been "a cleric that worships NO deity, but reveres them all." That might have saved a little confusion...
Fleece
I was going to say that, Fleece, but you beat me to it. Every D&D campaign setting I've played in (well, except Dark Sun) has a very interrelated set of deities that generally pre-date any other society.
Now, I guess if by default one means just picking up the PHB and reading it, then it's true there is no relationship noted therein. But that's definitely not a true statement for those deities from a more comprehensive perspective.
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Here's a hypothetical: can't you just say the cleric worships all the deities of a certain pantheon, BUT has ONE patron deity, whom he or she communes with and receives domains from?
THEN, as dungeonmaster, you could send communique or divine power from other deities as you saw fit, if you saw fit to do so to steer the story in a different direction?
I.E. Say the cleric worships Kord, but when he's traveling, he looks for guidance from Farlanghn. So you want them to travel a certain direction; Farlanghn sends a magical talking crow to tell the party to follow him. It's totally unrelated to the cleric's spell list and uncontrolled by the cleric since he/she doesn't worship Farlanghn, but you as the dungeonmaster can use it to steer the game. The cleric still has the Kord domains, none from Farlanghn.
One of the things that Ed Greenwood has often mentioned is that patron deities in the Realms are misunderstood, to use an example from one setting. While characters, especially clerics, have one particular patron god that they look to before all others and try to model their moral code after, etc., this doesn't preclude prayers and supplications to other deities at the proper times, and sometimes this even includes evil deities.
For example, nearly every ship captain in FR will make a sacrifice to Umberlee before going on a long sea voyage, to help stave off bad weather at sea, and someone that venerates a good deity might say a prayer to Talos if they are caught in a violent thunderstorm. Nearly everyone will say a prayer to Tymora for luck, or even one to Beshaba to stave off bad luck. The only exceptions really are that divine casters aren't likely to say any kind of prayer to a god that is specifically opposed to their own god, so a cleric of Selune won't be saying any kind of prayer to Shar, even on a moonless night to placate the Lady of Loss.
There are also mini, "allied" pantheons within the Realms. The planar realms in the setting kind of show what gods are allied to, and thus more than likely to help out, other gods and their followers. In fact, even in the novel Tymora's Luck, it was pointed out that Selune was aiding Finder and Tymora's clergy when those gods were otherwise entangled in the story.
Also, in the Spelljammer products, they introduced the idea of polygot clerics, clerics that worshiped an overall pantheon that catered to space travellers of particular races, such as clerics of the Seldarine, clerics of the Morndinsamman, etc.
Say the cleric worships Kord, but when he's traveling, he looks for guidance from Farlanghn. So you want them to travel a certain direction; Farlanghn sends a magical talking crow to tell the party to follow him. It's totally unrelated to the cleric's spell list and uncontrolled by the cleric since he/she doesn't worship Farlanghn, but you as the dungeonmaster can use it to steer the game. The cleric still has the Kord domains, none from Farlanghn.
I could totally see an allied deity (esp. a trickster like Olidammara) 'highjacking' a cleric's domain powers.
I could just see a Heironean cleric waking up one day with the Luck and Trickery domain powers. He'd be all, "Huh? What just happened? Did anyone get the license on the diety that just hit me?"
I´d say that being a cleric of all gods of a setting does not work. A cleric could worship a specific pantheon, probably with a patron deity. This would in GH most probably happen in the baklunish lands (or have a look at Al-Qadim for an example: There are several deities, but the priests worship them all as a pantheon).
Or a cultural selection of deities, perhaps like in the area of the former Great Kingdom and its surrounding, oeridian-influenced states, or along the Sheldomar (Keoland et al), with a heavy influence of Suel deities. Those cultures probably include other deities, not unlike the roman worship practice in the real world, and thus are not rigidly defined along racial lines, thus reflecting the history of those peoples and cultures.
I would recommend looking closely at the area of origin of the PC in question and at the religions practiced there, and define the priest from the things you find there. If he is from a truly cosmopolitan area, like the City of Greyhawk, it will be difficult to define a common theme for the gods. In this case, it will probably more a philosophy than a pantheon - good luck defining a "Cosmopolitan" domain ;-)
But lumping all the gods together and sticking the label "pantheon" to it just feels wrong to me.
just my 2c.
Stefan
D&D gods are typically handled bit oddly, somewhere between monotheistic and polytheistic religions. Of polytheistic traditions, I think it is closest to Greek/Roman tradition with one pantheon and specialized priests...however, all the Greek gods were notoriously neutral in alignment so the oppositions were not as strong as in, say, D&D. Poseidon is a god of earthquakes (among other things), and earthquakes are not exactly good thing, right?
Many other polytheistic traditions don't even have specialized priests, a priest was one who dealt with all the gods according to need. For example, animistic traditions old Finns: gods were a group of spirits and when you went hunting for bears you gave an offering to God of hunting and woodlands and also Mother of bears, or if you were hunting for squirrels you changed that Mother to that of squirrels.
Loviatar (of Forgotten Realms) was actually a real goddess of this tradition, maiden of pain and sickness. And the one who you paid respects to when you wanted to cure sicknesses or remove pains. She was not Evil (as in FR) nor was she Good (as healing domain could suggest), she just was and she had to be dealt with and paid respect to.
Glorantha has again some interesting ideas in this field, there gods are divided to number of pantheons and even when you are worshipper of one god you still pay respect to rest of the gods in your pantheon (after all, it was Chalana Arroy who healed Orlanth when blah blah blah) and sometimes oppose gods of some other pantheon as a group, even if you would share both the domain and general philosophy (again, since Your God said something bad about Our God in cousin Cindy's wedding). Some gods even belong to more than one pantheon (like that Chalana Arroy, a healer goddess of both Orlanth and Yelm pantheons) and it is possible to be a novice of more than one god...
Just to add to my earlier post, if I remember correctly, in the 3E Deities and Demigods, they offer the opiton of worshipping the entire Egyptian Pantheon (or something to that effect).
Yes, that´s right. Clerics worshipping the whole pantheon have a plethora of domains to choose from and several options for favored weapons. They must be non-evil (the evil gods are a special case).
Stefan
you know, im surprised no one has brought up eberron, where nearly all the clergy are dedicated to pantheons. at least from what i have seen of it...
tog
Tequila;
I couldn't disagree with your opening statement more...
I'm just referring to the PHB, which treats each god as an autonomous and isolated entity. I understand that these gods come from GH, but unless one is running a GH game, you don't have all that history.
I'm just referring to the PHB, which treats each god as an autonomous and isolated entity. I understand that these gods come from GH, but unless one is running a GH game, you don't have all that history.Tequila;
I couldn't disagree with your opening statement more...
Ahhhh! Hear you loud and clear, Tequila! You are right -the "core" deity listing IS just sort of a mish-mash of the most popular Greyhawk deities with little tying them all together. In this case, though (and what started this whole mess of discussion) WAS a Greyhawk-specific character...
Fleece
Very interesting thread. I would have to take note of treating D & D polytheism as real world polytheism. There are strong differences.
Real world polytheism is not divided into good and evil gods. Gods had some "good" aspects to them as well as some "evil" aspects to them. One real world god in particular was known as the bringer of plagues (evil) and as the protector of unborn children (good).
It's like worshipping the sun, it has good qualities (warmth, light) and at the same time has bad qualities (drought, searing heat). Real world polytheism works on this same basis, there is no over riding moral principle associated with the gods. They work on a completely different level than good and evil.
Thus it was quite common to venerate different gods for different purposes.
D & D polytheism does not work that way, they are split up by good and evil, and as such are opposites of each other.
I would have a hard time with a cleric worshipping a pantheon that included gods in opposition to each other. I could see a druid worshipping Obad-Hai and Ehlonna but throwing an evil god in there just because they are of the same pantheon just would not work.
I would say that it would be normal to venerate different gods depending on the occasion, but in normal society one would certainly not pay homage to Vecna or Erythnul for example. In a world which is defined by good and evil they have no redeeming characteristics (protecting unborn children as my previous example), and would not be worshipped as part of a normal pantheon.
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Director of Narrative
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One real world god in particular was known as the bringer of plagues (evil) and as the protector of unborn children (good).
For curiosity's sake, who would that be? I can think of a demon mentioned in Abrahamic traditions of traffiking in those domains*, but can't think of a god.
*can't recall the name so I might be wrong.
D & D polytheism does not work that way, they are split up by good and evil, and as such are opposites of each other.
I would have a hard time with a cleric worshipping a pantheon that included gods in opposition to each other. I could see a druid worshipping Obad-Hai and Ehlonna but throwing an evil god in there just because they are of the same pantheon just would not work.
I would say that it would be normal to venerate different gods depending on the occasion, but in normal society one would certainly not pay homage to Vecna or Erythnul for example. In a world which is defined by good and evil they have no redeeming characteristics (protecting unborn children as my previous example), and would not be worshipped as part of a normal pantheon.
Not worshipped, but appeased. I think there are real-world parallels for that (hinduism), but I´m no expert on that. It would be understandable that you might pray to a god of, say, good fortune, health and happiness, but at the same time try to appease a god of, say, death and disease so that these aspects don´t apply to you. In hinduism, AFAIK, these might be different aspects of the same entities, and in D&D, these are different deities, but still they belong to the same pantheon. But "pantheon" might not apply to hinduism, as it is (again, AFAIK) a very diverse religion.
As most comparisons, this one does not work out exactly. The real world has neither the absolute moral values of good and evil nor the certainty that god(s) exist. D&D has both.So, IMHO it would be understandable that evil gods and good gods are in the same pantheon. The average worshiper prays to the good (and perhaps neutral) ones, and tries to appease the evil ones, lest misfortune befall him. Somewhere in Greyhawk it was mentioned that the name of Nerull the Reaper is never spoken aloud, lest he lays his murderous eye on you. Only very evil or mad (or both) individuals would actively worship evil gods and try to further their agenda.
Stefan
Somewhere in Greyhawk it was mentioned that the name of Nerull the Reaper is never spoken aloud, lest he lays his murderous eye on you. Only very evil or mad (or both) individuals would actively worship evil gods and try to further their agenda.
Ah, good old Chinese curse, "may you live in interesting times and get attention from your superiors". In most cases it is a wise idea to not get too close attention from any god, even the good ones (after all, would you like to get a personal visit from Kord? Or burn in brightness that is Pelor with no soothing mercy of shadows?).
What has been bugging me in many fantasy pantheons is that all the death gods are automatically evil. Then who do you ask to perform funeral rites for your beloved grandmother? Priest of Nerull? Who takes care of graveyards, cult of Vecna?
It was Pazulu. Ancient Assyrian I believe. And also the "demon" who possessed the girl in the Exorcist.
If I remember correctly pregnant women would wear a talisman of his around their neck during pregnancy.
What has been bugging me in many fantasy pantheons is that all the death gods are automatically evil. Then who do you ask to perform funeral rites for your beloved grandmother? Priest of Nerull? Who takes care of graveyards, cult of Vecna?
Heh. You could view death gods as "necessary evil." But I would get the creeps if Nerull or Vecna would be keepers of graveyards, that´s true... "Everybody knows what graveyards look like - Gravestones on top, Zombies below." I think this is due to the very modern western outlook on death - it is viewed as evil and a topic best avoided. In earlier times, it was different - see all the danse macabre pictures from the renaissance - death was part of the daily life back then. In more modern times, death was pushed away from our view much more. How many of you have seen dead people (military and medical personnel aside) in a normal, everyday context ? So death was marginalisized and declared evil.
To get at least a bit back on topic, the only Greyhawk death god not purely evil is Wee Jas, whose priestesses were cast as keepers of graveyards in the recent adventure path material.
Perhaps if you take the "Old Faith" of Greyhawk (meaning a rural, mostly druidic religious view), then nature priests could hold funeral rites as part of the "great circle of life" or something like this. I don´t know if this is backed by "canon", but it would be a reasonable explanation.
btw, I love this chinese quote, even if I wasn´t aware of the part with one´s superiors :-))
Stefan
Actually for "death" gods in Greyhawk, you've got:
Chronepsis (N, of the dragons)
Katay (LN, of the Tuov)
Mictlantecuhtli and/or Chitza-Atlan (both LE, of the Olman)
Nerull (NE, of the Flan)
Sehanine Moonbow (CG, of the elves)
Urogalan (N, of the halflings)
Wee Jas (LN, of the Suel)
Yurtrus (NE, of the orcs)
For the Old Faith (as it's rooted in the Flan culture), Nerull is their god of death (and also winter in some cases). For the Baklunish, the closest I think they have to a god of death is Istus (N, with her Fate aspect). Telchur might serve this role for Oeridians (CN, with his connection to winter). So we've got 4-6 Neutral, four Evil, and even one Good deity of "death" in Greyhawk.
Vecna isn't a god of death at all, really, nor are most (I won't say all, as I may have missed a few) of the Greyhawk gods with the Death domain. As the god of secrets, and a god largely opposed to all other gods, I can't really see him being in any pantheon. Vecna does pretty much his own thing.
Now, as for how this relates to the polytheism discussion, I note that the "Good" races of halflings and elves have Neutral or Good deities related to death. The "Evil" aligned orcs unsurprisingly have an Evil deity. And the rest (excluding the dragons) are all Human, which as a race are generally Neutral. Only the Flan and Olman have to worry about worshiping/appeasing evil gods, and there is definitely already mention of the Old Faith druids/priests revering Nerull in this aspect. The Olman pantheon is heavily weighted toward Evil already (6 Evil, 2 Neutral, 2 Good) so having an Evil death god in the mix is no problem. Really for Olman, the "weirdos" would be the ones that pay too much respect to Chalchiuhtlicue (goddess of running water and love) and/or Itzamna (god of medicine)...
My sum conclusion is still that polytheistic worship in Greyhawk is very easy to see/accept in my games.
I like Morr in the warhammer world. Very cool way to do a death god, and he isn't evil. He's more like a funeral director - everyone knows he's not evil, but he (and his worshippers) still creep you out just a little bit.
If you think about it, there are always people who go in for evil gods, even in the real world. Social outcasts, posers and radicals. I'm thinking of all those devil-worshipping death metal guys in Norway, and teenagers who claim to be satanists to annoy their parents.
"You never let me do anything cool! I'm going to start worshipping Vecna! *slams door*
I think pantheon worship in D&D usually works much better with Spirit Shamans than with Clerics. Shamans you can easily imagine having a more personal relationship with each spirit/god/demon, taking on aspects of good or evil depending on what the community needs at the time. They use evil to fight evil.
Clerics I can't seem to separate in my mind from a medieaval European templar or something, so they always give me the feeling that they are fanatically dedicated to one church, and would always see themselves as being good no matter what their methods. This would preclude paying respect to a deity who opposes theirs in some way.
Caution: threadjacking ahead.
If you think about it, there are always people who go in for evil gods, even in the real world. Social outcasts, posers and radicals. I'm thinking of all those devil-worshipping death metal guys in Norway, and teenagers who claim to be satanists to annoy their parents."You never let me do anything cool! I'm going to start worshipping Vecna! *slams door*
Most likely, they pretend to worship the devil because they know that this is just posing and not for real. It is just a cheap excuse for annoying people - or, in case of those death metal idiots, an excuse for commiting crimes and atrocities. I guess there are not many teenagers on GH worshipping Vecna or Nerull just to annoy their parents, for the danger of the god noticing is all too real.
Stefan
Actually for "death" gods in Greyhawk, you've got: *snip*
Ah, thanks. My knowledge of GH is admittedly limited. In the campaign world I created once there were actually two cults concerned about dead, one (admittedly small) was of death god and one was about great birth-death-rebirth cycle. Both of them were against undead, btw (the death god wanted to keep the dead with him, naturally, and worshippers of the great cycle thought becoming undead prevents possibility of rebirth and thus is abomination).
Back to topic, I do also think that worshipping a pantheon is acceptable though there should be several pantheons with cultural ties to each other. Worshipping all GH gods (or even all the gods mentioned in PHB) is too much.
And anyone with shamanistic tendencies should preferably worship pantheons instead of individual gods.
And back off-topic, it might be fun adventure idea to put PCs against local cult of Vecna which then proves out to be bunch of disgruntled teenagers...now what would paladin do?
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What has been bugging me in many fantasy pantheons is that all the death gods are automatically evil. Then who do you ask to perform funeral rites for your beloved grandmother? Priest of Nerull? Who takes care of graveyards, cult of Vecna?
This question intrigued me. My thought is that all of the gods take an interest in the death and funeral of their followers, since their true followers would be joining them in the afterlife.
For example, I can see a devout Pelorite have a funeral presided over by a Pelorite cleric to pray for the deceased's unification with Pelor. I don't think it necessarily has to be a cleric of a death god for a situation like that.
And back off-topic, it might be fun adventure idea to put PCs against local cult of Vecna which then proves out to be bunch of disgruntled teenagers...now what would paladin do?
OoTS: Been there, done that (only with goblins serving Xykon, and no paladin, but Roy is close enough). :)
As far as the death gods go, I can see some prayers to Wee Jass being said if there's no other god that's really prevelalent in the situation, but I don't see her being invoked at every funeral. I think of the cathedrals of Pelor and imagine they likely have graveyards under their protection, too. The people served him in life, rest with him in death, and trust in his holy light to protect their souls (from, say, turning into a ghoul).
Warriors of Kord could be burried next to his places of worship so they could wrestle with their god forever. Etc., etc.
D&D polytheism is a complicated, often internally inconsitent thing, due to its method of creation.