RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I've been gaming for a long time now (12 years) and, more often than not, I have been the DM for these games. I don't mind DMing and, in fact, I usually prefer to run games. However, two of my best friends and the most quality roleplayers I've ever known have moved over 1000 miles away from me. The rest of our gaming group is still here and we've even added a couple of new folks to the table but I'm noticing something that makes me very unhappy...
Without the two big-time roleplayers to keep things IC at the table, the games degenerate rapidly into OOC discussions and even the IC conversations are strictly functional and do not convey the idea of someone playing a character at all. One of the players continues to try to be a roleplayer, but the rest of the table drowns her out (and she's not the kind to stand up and say anything about it otherwise).
As a DM, I love roleplay. Seeing the players take on new lives and work through the problems that I present to them is what brings me enjoyment. Lately, however, the games have been increasingly irreverent and tangential. It's starting to get to me. I'm losing the desire to continue running these games. Recently, the characters had to make a long trip by steamboat. Only one of the characters had ever SEEN a steamboat before and so I set it up that this hissing monster of a ship rolled into the docks and they climbed on board. Then, expecting some kind of conversation to get started, I described the deck and some of the people there, then waited for a reaction. Everyone just stared at me. Finally, someone said "Okay, we go." I died a little inside.
Does anyone else have this problem? Are you a roleplay-loving DM condemned to running for people who seem to only be interested in killing monsters and getting better gear? It's really depressing and I'm not sure what to do besides just stopping the game altogether. It's not like I can just say "Guys, you need to roleplay or I'm going to kill you."
Edit: Oh, and giving positive rewards for roleplay doesn't work. I've always done roleplaying awards in my games and the players know it. They just don't seem to care.
Fatespinner, I feel your pain.
This past summer, I took over DMing duties for our group, which has been together for about seven years now. One of the things that has always bugged me about this group as a player was that although I really enjoy the RPing, some of the players don't—or will only do it if someone else gets them started. And our last DM (my husband) didn't really encourage it. It was fine if we wanted to—but he was quite happy to run a hack and slash session (which, let's face it, is easier prep work for someone who's got a stressful fulltime job).
One of the things I've been trying to do is encourage more roleplaying. I tried awarding XP bonuses, but like you said, some of the players just don't care. One of the things I've tried to do is to get into character and play the NPCs with distinctive voices, interesting accents, and a funky hat collection (I have a merchant hat, and town guard hat, a damsel-in-distress hat…) Two of the four players are responding really well to it, and the other two are not as interested. I'm really not sure what else I can do to get them into it, though.
Maybe someone else out there has some other ideas…
--Fang
Maybe someone else out there has some other ideas…
I've been DMing for a few years now and while some of my PCs really get into the roleplaying, others just sit on the sidelines waiting for combat. I've found that the best way to engage those PCs is to introduce an NPC particularly of interest to them. Perhaps a long lost friend, an enemy or perhaps even a love interest. Put the focus of the campaign, if only temporarily, on those PCs and put them on the spot to make campaign affecting decisions. Perhaps that make evoke a response other than "Is it my turn yet?"
Puzzles are also interesting for a change of pace other than swinging swords and casting magic missile.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I guess the thing that really bugs me is that the group I have has so much POTENTIAL for good roleplaying but they choose not to explore it. I have the aforementioned player who does try to roleplay most of the time and she's fairly good at it. I also have one player who CAN roleplay, but tends to do more showing off and arguing than actually getting in character. There's another player who lacks creativity and can't really portray a character convincingly different from himself and one more player who literally does NOTHING throughout the entire game. In fact, there was a game session where he was ill and I had to NPC his character. When I started taking actions on his behalf, the other players said "Oh, yeah! I forgot he was still with us!" Finally, there's my wife who is vastly creative and would make an exemplary roleplayer if only she'd take it seriously. She tends to prefer being humorous and bring OOC thing IC, say things that are completely antethical to her character's personality just to be silly, etc. etc.
I just don't know how to break this vicious cycle of irreverence. I suppose I could start imposing penalties for behaving improperly for the setting, but... D&D is supposed to be fun. There shouldn't need to be PUNISHMENTS for these kinds of things. I mean, if everyone is laughing and we're having a good time, I don't want to be mean but I would like to actually play the game instead of sit around the table and goof off.
You know, sometimes a DM just needs a break. It happens to me sometimes... I'm not finding the game as fun anymore; I don't feel like preparing my sessions; I feel like my campaign is getting nowhere; I even sometimes stop reading Dungeon(!!).
I usually call for a break in these times.
And usually about a month after that, I start missing the game. And then I start to fiddle with new ideas, maps, and take out those Dungeon Magazines I haven't read yet... And next thing you know, I'm back in the DM's chair.
I think we (the DMs) will always have a story to tell. You can stop for a while, and then come back even better than ever.
Do not despair.
Ultradan
Something that might help is trying to include more side mini-adventures and opportunities in your game that players only find through roleplaying. Kind of like a programmer hiding an easter egg in a computer game – give the players things to find that can only be found by roleplaying.
Sure, a player can buy a sword just by updating the character sheet, but if he had roleplayed an encounter with the sword smith andactually talked with the NPC, he may have found out that some shady characters have been coming by, offering “insurance” and a “friendly” warning that it would be a good idea to buy it – no telling what might happen if he doesn’t. . . .
Not the beginning of a grand adventure, but it could be a nice side encounter, a chance to make a NPC ally, friend or contact, or perhaps introduce a clue to the larger adventure.
It takes more work, but it might help, especially after the players notice that the one roleplayer keeps stumbling onto cool opportunities in game and keeps getting the rewards in XP, gold, items and information. That and show them what they could have found, but didn’t – have some NPC adventurers win the prize / find the jewels / rescue the NPC’s daughter who fell overboard and then have other NPCs talk about how brave / honest / heroic / etc. those NPC adventurers are (competition is good for the players!). When the players complain that they never get to do that, tell them that they were given the opportunity, but instead of talking to the people on the deck of the ship, they all barricaded themselves in their cabins.
If you can stand it, you might try running it "their way" for a few sessions. Basically, run it as a tactical wargame and see if anyone tries to get you to reintroduce complex descriptions and motivated NPCs. If they don't care, there's little way to make them care-- and since they're fellow players, not your children, you shouldn't try to impress your style on them as "the right one".
See if you can get a player to run "a few short adventures" and play up your interaction with the good but ignored roleplayer. (Don't dominate the spotlight, or it's not "good roleplayer" that they'll see.)
Let the PCs cross into faerie; make the interactions more about attitude than power. Play up the silly light fun of the faeries -- maybe after they have a chance to experience it in a concentrated dose, they'll be done with it for a while.
Or, just talk to them. Tell them that you enjoy RPGs for the roleplaying-- and that what you're seeing at the table doesn't inspire you to spend hours of prep. Maybe they'll come up with a solution.
Two(ish) words: Electroshock therapy.
Seriously, though, I agree with Delveg. Have you just come out and said, "Look, guys, I enjoy roleplaying as much as anything else in this game, so for me, would you mind trying to be a little more in character most of the time?" That's a good place to start, at least letting them know what you want and expect. They can't be blamed if you don't tell them that much, and if they respect you, they should try to accomodate.
I had a similar situation come up last night. On alternate weeks, I play in a Beyond the Supernatural campaign, and my fellow players are the players in my D&D game. The GameMaster and I often compare notes on running a game, and one of the issues that the GM was having was how long it was taking some of us to get into character. So what he did was have everybody switch character sheets. He gave us fifteen minutes to study our new character sheets, ask questions of the other player about skills and such. For half the night, we played someone else's character, and we weren't allowed to ask the other player about their character, or what their character would do in a situation (that's what the fifteen minutes were for ;) ). At the break, the GM said, "I hope you've all been taking notes about how your character is being played. As the GM, I put in a lot of time prepping for the game, and I only give as much as I'm getting. If you want the good stuff, prove it to me by how you play your characters."
An interesting game, to say the least - sometimes players are so used to playing their characters a particular way that they don't want to go out of their comfort zone with a character. While coming up with an in-game reason for the switcheroo is up to the GM/DM, it's a useful exercise in roleplaying, to say the least.
I would definitely have a sit-down & chit chat with your players about "role" vs "roll." If they don't take the hint, start hittin' them with the clue bat (+5 vs. Clueless) and putting them in situations where the numbers on their character sheet mean little (or nothing). A character sheet is just a piece of paper, and how you play your character shouldn't be confined by that imaginary box.
hmm; my rule is that anything said by a player is what is said by his character unless he holds his hand over his head and does the hand duck mocking talk thing; as long as you have your hand over you head doing this; you are not talking in character. This does not include game questions to the gm; anyone may ask these normally. Although you do see an occasional hand over the head doing the talk thing; most people feel it is silly enough that they wont do it and hence stay in character; I penalize exps for flaggarent violations of the rule. This is agreed upon and accepted by the whole group and with enough peer preassure from players to cow new players into it. maybe not the best solution, but it works for my group.
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I'd probably be one of your problem players, so at first I didn't think I could help you, but I reckon if somebody told me to be more in character like, I'd try to roleplay more.
I just never did the full immersion thing; sorta half-immersed, I guess.
There's also a lot of jokery abundant; I usually (as dm) don't get bent about it; if I want people to be scared and serious I can pull that off.
Yeah, I'd say talk to them, and realize that it may be a big change in the way they're doing things. Change takes time.
Another thing is this: a few years back I played with a couple guys that played together for years; they finished eachother's sentences and I was the new guy, so they were always saying stuff like, "why couldn't you see that coming? It was so obvious. Are you stupid?" I haven't been playing with you guys for years. No it's not obvious.
You really can get used to a core group of players; I've done it before too. Comfty shoes, man. Comfty shoes.
Some great ideas there. One I'd like to throw out there is to immerse them in the mood of the game. I started doing this running Vampire. I had a party that was a little shy as far as role playing went Some were your basic hack and slash crew. I put on mood music, lit candles,and spoke in accents and mannerisms for each character.
Short of that, talk to them. More often then not something can be worked out.
Find new people to game with. Sorry to be so blunt, but if personalities aren't "meshing," the game will always be sub-standard. Like a celebrity marriage: they seem to go through the motions, but why bother? This hobby can be intensely rewarding, or we wouldn't play. Why play if it's less fun?
One of the rules we had in a group I played with was similar to the idea Valegrim suggested, except that instead of mock talking with your hand, you had to hold a pen or pencil above your head to go OOC. XP was lost if you didn't adhere to the rule, or perhaps even worse, if the DM was feeling creative.
The idea I thought of while reading this post was, during one of the times the other players are talking over your one role player, continue the scenario with her. Make it something short and easy, talking to an NPC or something, but give her an entire level for it. If this is contested, tell your other players that it was meant to be something that everyone participated in and split up the exp, but they weren't playing their characters and were too busy OOC and were not involved in the conversation or something, so your one role player got all of it. That may or may not work, but it is just something that came to mind. Having the role player be a level ahead of everyone could potentially serve as a constant reminder to the benefits of role playing.
This may not be what you want to hear, but listen to the before mentioned "run it as a tactical wargame." The way I run my game is I come up with 4 to 8 ish adversaries of varying levels and figure what they would do to promote their agendas. That puts it on your players to come up with a scheme to thwart the evil baddies.
If the adventurers have a motive for adventuring other then to get gold, then they'll have some interpersonal conflicts as to what baddie to take out first, and it'll enforce a party heirarchy.
Are you sure its really there fault? For some of the new people they may just not be used to RPing. If your used to hard core players that know your style it can be pretty difficult to walk in and try and fill their shoes.
Was it obvious to them that there where interesting people to talk to on the steam boat. Was there some kind of purpose to talking to them? Certainly if it was me and I was relatively new to your game I might wait for some more information to clue me into the fact that there where interesting NPCs I should talk to here for some reason. If that does not come, well - I guess I get on the boat...does anything happen? Does some one approach me? Is there an individual that I should take note of?
It may be that your veteran role players new you as a DM well enough to know that they should start checking things out on this boat. I mean there was a 3 paragraph description and they know from experience that when you have a 3 paragraph description then you almost always want them to interact with the people on the boat. But the new guys don't know this. Your other veteran RPer is not going to seize the spotlight and your Wife is more interested in the game as a social activity as compared.
Its possible you have to go back to baby steps and have the NPCs interact with them instead of waiting for them to interact with the NPCs. Their adventurers - their probably pretty interesting - lots of reasons NPCs might want to talk with them.
Of course you may have players that absolutely don't want to role play. If they are dead set against it then you can't make them. At that point your going to have to decide what it is you want to do. In any case talking to them might not be a bad way of finding out where you stand. One player is already a convert and one is probably a lost cause but the two new guys just might not be picking up on your cue's.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Find new people to game with. Sorry to be so blunt, but if personalities aren't "meshing," the game will always be sub-standard.
Well, the problem is that these are the gamers I've been playing with for 5 years now with the exception of the guy who does nothing and my wife. I know that they have the potential. I've seen it. It's just that, without the two guys who moved away to serve as an anchor to 'Roleplay Land,' the other players get swept up in socializing and all that. It's almost impossible to get anything done in-game because of all the conversations that get started OOC.
In a five-hour game session, all that we managed to get done was a trip up the river, a brief interaction with a ranger who warned them about the monsters in the swamp and told them that people had been mysteriously disappearing, and one combat with a group of slavers who had captured the aforementioned disappearing people. All the rest of the time was spent talking about irrelevant things and joking around the table. I'm all for socialization but, when we've established a schedule that says "Every other Friday, we game," I would like to use the time to actually game. I don't work on these plotlines and character profiles for nothing (I do all my own stuff because I don't believe in modules) but lately, it seems like that's exactly what's happening.
On the advice of everyone, yes, I believe perhaps a direct approach is best. It's happened before and I'm sure it'll happen again where someone just needs to see that someone else is not enjoying the way things are going and changes are made. We get together every weekend. Is it so much to ask that we actually play the game that we've set time aside for every other week?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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The idea I thought of while reading this post was, during one of the times the other players are talking over your one role player, continue the scenario with her. Make it something short and easy, talking to an NPC or something, but give her an entire level for it.
A very interesting idea, but I don't think it would go over well. She's already ahead of the pack due to the roleplaying XP that I've awarded her up to this point. Not by a full level yet, but getting there.
Now, this isn't to say that there isn't ANY roleplay happening in the game. There is a little bit going around and she's not the only one to have accumulated roleplaying XP, she's just the one who's aquired the MOST of it. I would say, on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being IC all the time and 1 being never IC, the players are 8, 6, 5, 4, 1. What I would LIKE to see is for 6 to be the LOWEST number. I could tolerate it if everyone was at least a 6. Basically, about half of my group roleplays at least as much as I would like to see. It's the other two who keep dragging the entire table OOC with their commentary that seems to be the problem. The biggest problem with addressing this whole mess? My wife is the '4.' :(
... It's almost impossible to get anything done in-game because of all the conversations that get started OOC.
In a five-hour game session, all that we managed to get done was a trip up the river, a brief interaction with a ranger who warned them about the monsters in the swamp and told them that people had been mysteriously disappearing, and one combat with a group of slavers who had captured the aforementioned disappearing people. All the rest of the time was spent talking about irrelevant things and joking around the table. I'm all for socialization but, when we've established a schedule that says "Every other Friday, we game," I would like to use the time to actually game. I don't work on these plotlines and character profiles for nothing (I do all my own stuff because I don't believe in modules) but lately, it seems like that's exactly what's happening.
That's a much better situation than I feared-- much better than I think most people who were writing to help you thought.
For a problem like this, I suggest three things that together might get your game back on track.
1) Talk with your players; tell them that while you're as eager as they are to chat, you're unhappy with the amount of roleplaying that you can fit in among all the OOC chatter.
If you order food or have some other obvious transition, encourage everyone to chat up to the transition (say, putting away the plates), so they're ready to game and they've gotten the urgent talking out of the way first.
2) Adopt a consistent start... a ritual cue that says "the game is now beginning". It can be as simple as, "Last week, the brave adventurers made their way across the windswept heath, barely surviving a ferocious Yeti attack. We begin, watching four lumps of blanket arranged in a circle. Most of the party is deep in sleep, while Derek is pacing on his normal watch. Make a listen check..." and the game is on.
3) Find some item, probably 8-16 inches long and distinctive. Make that item the "talking stick". Whoever holds the talking stick can speak and no one (save the GM) should interrupt. The stick is passed around, so each person gets to speak and be heard. (This is intrusive, but will help quieter players. After a few sessions of "training", you can try setting the stick aside and seeing if the habit of being respectful to their fellow players has stuck.)
Well, for me, D&D has always been tricky to get into character with so little to hang a personality on. Back in the day, when the attributes were rolled but not assigned, it was easier, but not easy. It is worse in 3rd edition with the assignment of attributes after generation, leaving only the alignment choice as a guideline to a character's personality.
Bluntly, I don't play D&D for lots of IC RP, at least, not as a primary source of entertainment. If I finesse a personality for the charcter (generally about the time I figure out the character's name), then I stick to it and nurse it along. I can only suggest discussing what you want to do with your friends and fellow players before the next game session if at all possible, especially your wife. If need be, it may turn out that the big draw of the game is the OOC socialization, the game being a fun excuse to do so, a proverbial " beer and pretzels " game. In many ways, a B&P game is greatly relaxing and enjoyable. No worries about character after a nasty week at work, just hanging out and participating in a socially agreeable hobby with some friends.
In 25 years of gaming, I would probably say I have had a total of maybe 12 to 15 characters with distinct personalities - and most of them were not D&D characters. (Most of the time, my D&D characters die like flies.)
RP bonuses. Instead of negative re-inforcement, go with positive re-inforcement.
But, I'm with other people in that it's probably a pre-disposition to not really trying, especially if other people are getting way too into it (providing a lead for the sheep, breaking the ice, whatever). If the catalyst doesn't do anything, you're porbably outta reactive or whatever.
Picture I said something cool and introspective there.
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Well, for me, D&D has always been tricky to get into character with so little to hang a personality on. Back in the day, when the attributes were rolled but not assigned, it was easier, but not easy. It is worse in 3rd edition with the assignment of attributes after generation, leaving only the alignment choice as a guideline to a character's personality.
Bluntly, I don't play D&D for lots of IC RP, at least, not as a primary source of entertainment. If I finesse a personality for the charcter (generally about the time I figure out the character's name), then I stick to it and nurse it along. I can only suggest discussing what you want to do with your friends and fellow players before the next game session if at all possible, especially your wife. If need be, it may turn out that the big draw of the game is the OOC socialization, the game being a fun excuse to do so, a proverbial " beer and pretzels " game. In many ways, a B&P game is greatly relaxing and enjoyable. No worries about character after a nasty week at work, just hanging out and participating in a socially agreeable hobby with some friends.
In 25 years of gaming, I would probably say I have had a total of maybe 12 to 15 characters with distinct personalities - and most of them were not D&D characters. (Most of the time, my D&D characters die like flies.)
Just felt I needed to chime in here. I agree with Turin here and just wanted to add a few things. Sometimes it is hard to "get into" your character. I am not an actor, as much as I try to be sometimes. If I don't truly feel a character's motivation then it just becomes an exercise in going through the motions. It takes a bit for me to feel invested in a character with regards to speech pattern and dialect, personality quirks and behavioral actions, and general motivation. I just switched groups last week. My old character, while liked by me, was extremely hard to roleplay. Why? I couldn't understand how this dude could leave behind his wife and a thriving Locksmithing business to go off for months at a time to explore some ruin in the middle of nowhere. I tried to go along with it but every time we got our asses kicked I thought "why would this dude not just retire from adventuring and settle down with his wife and business affairs?".
Getting into character is hard, sometimes you are embarrassed to do it in front of a group of people, or just don't feel the proper energy from the campaign, character or world.
Just try not to be too hard on the players, they have a hard job too.
FH
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Looks like an ethereal filcher got the last post I tried to put up on this thread....
Anyway, I really enjoy the roleplaying aspect of RPGs, and as a DM I love when my players roleplay their characters well too. But as some people have already pointed out, not everyone is really into the roleplaying side of things, and not everyone feels comfortable with it.
Fatespinner, I think you should keep encouraging and rewarding roleplaying as you have been doing, but may have to accept that not all your players are always going to get into it. Try to enjoy the other aspects of the game too, create memorable combat and puzzle type encounters that you and your players will really remember and enjoy - interspersed with plenty of role-playing encounters of course!
Also, keep in mind that "roleplaying" does not have to mean speaking in character all the time - or speaking in funny voices, using props etc. Some people just arent comfortable with this. I'm fine as long as my players generally "Act in character" - try to react to things the way their character would, based on what they have previously conveyed (through way of background, or previous game sessions) about their characters personality and beliefs.
I also think its quite ok for a player to say "My character says..." rather than speaking in character.
One thing that really does annoy me though is lots of OOC discussion during the game - I share your concerns on this 100%. I love socialising with my RPG buddies, but I have a limited time for gaming, and when we organise a session, and I have put in a lot of hard work to prepare the game, I really dont like it when more than half the game time is spent not gaming.
I really try to enforce the "no table talk" rule, but for this to work (without the DM seeming overbearing or "fascist") I find we need to take fairly regular breaks (snack breaks, bathroom breaks etc) at which the inevitable (and fun when theyre not disrupting the game) conversations can take place.
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There is always something of a dichotomy between those who like to roleplay and those who like the tactical stuff. My guys like the tactical stuff much more than the roleplaying piece, and frankly I am biased in that direction too. While some people may be a bit shy, I personally think it is perfectly valid to play "yourself". We sit around the table, roll a few dice and have a laugh. I'm not decrying those who want to explore a character, but it's not the only way to do things. And there seems to be a sort of assumption in this thread that if you aren't being sort of emotionally tortured or talking in a funny voice, you are not playing the game right.
That said, I do understand the frustration where character motivations boil down to killing things to get there stuff to buy more stuff to make them better at killing things to get their stuff to.... I think, as a DM, you need to build the characters into the world, through their background, and run adventures based on that, because the players are not going to do it for you. In my current campaign, I created the original characters and all PC backgrounds, and the scenraios are based around those. A bit extreme, but it has worked well to bring the setting more alive for them and me. I probably wouldn't do it again exactly like that, but I have learnt a lot about how to create and run a compelling campaign for non-natural roleplayers.
But you still won't get any Oscar-winning performances from them, because that is not their forte (though they can handle EL five above the party level quite easily). The campaign is still predicated around combat. But the reasons why they are doing it are much more nuanced and interesting.
One of the best things that I've found to counter act this type of situation is to insert a really abbrasive NPC into the group as part of the team. Make them rude and smart @$$, and counter productive to the group if you have too. Have them single out the characters that you are having problems with and draw them into hating the NPC. If you can piss the player off at theNPC, they'll be more involved just to get even with them. (It helps if the NPC is several levels higher than the group.)
The other thing that you can do is set up situations where these characters have no choice but to roleplay. You are the DM and you set the tone of the game. And if the DM ain't happy, everyone dies! If it still doesn't work, then think about dumping some of your players. You don't need to feel obligated to stoop to the lowest common denominator.
Find new people to game with. Sorry to be so blunt, but if personalities aren't "meshing," the game will always be sub-standard. Like a celebrity marriage: they seem to go through the motions, but why bother? This hobby can be intensely rewarding, or we wouldn't play. Why play if it's less fun?
Are you telling me K-fed and Brit were just going through the motions? Liar!!! *evil grin*
One the one hand I agree with Erik, but I have had difficulty implementing any kind of "final solution". I have a player who continually cheats (he rolls a handful of dice that often includes two d20's, he leaves "temporary" modifiers permanently on his character sheet, doesn't erase charges & one-shots, etc. He also speaks all over other people's turns and gets bellicose if anyone mentions the slightest of these affronts. Still, he is one of my oldest, best friends (outside of gaming he's actually a stand up guy- dad, husband works hard all those things), and I find it difficult, outside of nudging him to be more honest, to do anything about the issue.
I often think about "hanging up my spurs" because I am frustrated with players and I am actually at a point like that right now, but love of the game keeps me coming back for more. However, if its really frustrating, maybe its time to have a sit down with the offending parties, as well as the rest of the group, and honestly state how you feel. One session that is used to generally clear the air and get your feelings aboveboard is worth two dozen sessions spent in frustration and dissappointment. Everybody's adults now, and if they can't take a little creative criticism, let them decide for themselves wether they want to continue.
The last time we had an issue like this, it ended up with me talking to everyone, and then writing a set of "table rules", including rule 0, on a big piece of foam core and setting it behind my head on the wall, and basically saying that adherence to these simple rules was the basic rquirement for coming to my house and gaming.
The rules are simple and designed to promote fairness and roleplay, including making a minor xp award for RP (50xp per character level/session for exceptional roleplay) official, and banning all OOC disrespect. We decided that if table talk becomes too off topic or meta, we take a five minute break, so people are more wary of going down that road. I hope these suggestions/ideas work, and that it helps you. Sometimes a little break can help, if only to realign your perspective. If, after talking to the players they are irresolute, maybe it is time to advertise here, or on craigslist for new players.
Funny thing is, when I casually mentioned one day that I was going to do that, everyone behaved so well for the next few sessions. Sorta like telling your girlfriend you are thinking of signing up for a dating service, ya know *grin* Puts 'em all on notice and lets you feel like you have options. Good luck, Fatespinner, the game would lose a stalwart in you, so don't lose faith.
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As an aside, while having a group roleplay and react well to your created world, there is also quite a lot of pleasure to be had from coming up with a tough challenge and having them overcome it (usually a combat). It may be that your game is changing because of the change in the players - that is natural really, since the group dynamic rests on the participants. I think it is a little unfair to try and shoe-horn your current group into being clones of the last one. You might want to consider what they do well and play up to that, rather than trying to focus on their perceived weaknesses and get them to change. After all, they are as entitled to play the game their own way as you are. And you might be the minority voice. A DM rules in-game, but in the metagame environment he is just one of the players.
You know, sometimes a DM just needs a break. I think we (the DMs) will always have a story to tell. You can stop for a while, and then come back even better than ever.
Do not despair.
Ultradan
Excellent Post.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I've come up with a solution (I hope). The game that I've been running (Iron Kingdoms) is where the roleplay needs to pick up. I'm taking a break from running it for awhile in order to explore something much more roleplay-intensive and less quest and gear oriented: White Wolf's Dark Ages Mage.
I have always been a fan of White Wolf's games because there is no way to have fun in a White Wolf game WITHOUT being in-character (in my observation, anyway). The character sheet matters much less and the characters' decisions and actions can have profound impact on the plot and even the setting itself. Hopefully, playing this for awhile will really get them into having party discussions, roleplaying their character's positions on various concepts, etc. If nothing else, it'll get them used to being in-character for the IK game (there's no saving the guy who doesn't do anything... I'm really considering just kicking him out). If they end up loving the Mage game, I might drop the d20 stuff (temporarily, of course) and dwell in White Wolf land for awhile. If they hate it, then perhaps roleplay is not their thing. If that's the case, I'll make someone else DM.