For us old timers, "classic" D&D eventually moved into the area of PCs securing land, clearing it, and building a kingdom. I think this could be an interesting Adventure Path--perhaps a borderland of marginal habitability is causing a major empire problems--bandits hide there, monsters breed there, etc. The PCs are given 12 months to bring 1) security and 2) profitability to the area--if successful, they will be granted governorship. The types of adversaries could include the aforementioned bandits and monsters, along with mad wizards and evil cultists. Another adventuring company might act on their own (or be hired) to sabotaged the PCs' efforts. Another element of the campaign could involve making the territory profitable (figuring out how to drain a marshland or redirect a river, deciding whether to anger druids by clear-cutting a forest, negotiating with dwarves for mining rights, discovering and securing trade routes, finding the capital to build a town and then trying to recruit settlers, etc). Or you could mix in elements from the Seven Samurai--an invasion force is gathering, and there is limited time to secure this border of the empire (or stop it from being easy pickings for marauders).
I just think that building something positive in the face of adversity would be an interesting alternative to Stopping the Evil Plot.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I see some problems with both the "Star Wars" and the "Birthright" campaign.
The first has the problem of requiring a rather complex background available from the get-go. While this is not much of a problem if you aim for a hardcover right away, for a magazine, this will likely be tough. The backdrops are a squeeze every time i see one. Now imagine that, plus thirty pages of backstory why things got so bad... hard to pull off.
The second one is great if your players dig "empire building" and a good deal of politics, and day-to-day management. However, pretty much every group i every played with appreciates winning the formal recognition of some important political group - but enjoys laying the smackdown on a BBEG even more.
My personal wishlist would definitly include the BBEG of the AP to be a dragon. If that dragon is too wuzzy by itself, give it some template, or class levels... but its Dungeons and Dragons, not Dungeons and Demons, in the end. ;) Have that dragon build an army, have it amass artifacts, the works... but it should be pretty much a homegrown threat. Making it a "fallen gold" would be icing on the cake, for me personally at least.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Wow. This topic has really taken off.
Some ideas here I have really liked.
The villain is a dragon. Not Tiamat. Not a dragon god nor a dracolich. Not a half-fiend dragon errand boy of a demonic overlord. But a true dragon – a great wyrm who has awakened to a world all too ready for a new master. This is a beast of vast intellect, sublime patience, savage cunning and an unquenchable will to dominate. The younger races have forgotten their true king. It is time to remind them.
As far as which color, well, you see I have this colossal red just lying around…
Definitly agree. I have always felt that Dragons where shortchanged most of the time, being relegated to mid-level challenges. I merely am a bit cautious about red dragons because they are more then just a bit worn. Besides, the metalics usually have a somewhat stronger punch.
I like the idea of the PCs becoming lords of a kingdom fairly early in the campaign. That gives them real buy-in to the plot. Why must they win the war? Because their home is on the line. That also allows for tough, interesting decisions. Do you reinforce your eastern border, hire a new unit of mercenaries or buy yourself a buff new magic toy? Build an army, clear monsters from your lands, deal with ancient rivals and would-be usurpers to your throne, all the while slowly learning that something powerful stirs beneath your holdings and looks upon the free lands of men with envious eyes…
See? It could be cool.
Gary
Here it gets iffy for me. While its a good concept for a free-flow campaign, i really doubt it would fit into the "module" format that is a necessity for dungeon. Besides, it is a very open scenario, where the characters have a lot of story-impact choices to make, while an adventure path has a rather rigid structure. I doubt you could really give them the "lord of their domain" feeling, and still retain the strict structure necessary.
What about two very ancient dragons continuing their ages-old feud ? Maybe a blue or green and a brass or copper as enemies (LE vs. CG being the theme here), or even a LG against a CG for a twist, whose philosophical differences have turned over centuries into all-out enmity, coming to blows right now – in the beginning via proxy, the final confrontation being between the two if the players cannot convince them otherwise - a task truly worthy of heroes, making ancient dragons change their minds.
If you take blue against brass and/or copper, this would call for a desert setting IMO, and thus for a more pseudo-arabian setting, like the Baklunish lands in Greyhawk. (The enmity might date back to the time before the Twin Cataclysms, about 1000 years ago, for Greyhawk. Volte of the Bright Desert might be an old offspring of the main Villain here. His recent stirring might be just the first sign of his sire re-awakening.)
Good minions for the evil one would be Kobolds and Hobgoblins, even if already used in RHoD. Perhaps the evil one has a breeding ground for Half-Dragons in some outer plane where time runs several times faster than on the prime, and the PCs have to go there and stop the breeding program, and face the danger of aging 10 or 20 times faster.
Just some rather unkempt ideas…
Stefan
Could I make a small suggestion for the name of the green dragon?
;)
The Great Green God
The first has the problem of requiring a rather complex background available from the get-go. While this is not much of a problem if you aim for a hardcover right away, for a magazine, this will likely be tough. The backdrops are a squeeze every time i see one. Now imagine that, plus thirty pages of backstory why things got so bad... hard to pull off.
Why would you need thirty pages to say "BBEG wanted to take over the kingdom; a small band of heroes tried to stop him/her; Evil won and enslaved the kingdom?" In truth, the background for AoW would take longer to tell than this one...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Why would you need thirty pages to say "BBEG wanted to take over the kingdom; a small band of heroes tried to stop him/her; Evil won and enslaved the kingdom?" In truth, the background for AoW would take longer to tell than this one...
Well, besides describing the stage (as with any AP so far), you also need to detail quite a bit of the opposition beforehand (which no AP to date does). The usual process seems to be to start with a setting, and slowly introduce the opposition, while first remaining very much in the "present time".
I don't say it can't be done. I just think its harder than to start with "Green Acres" and move gradually into hotter water. With an AP you need to start small. And rebells against the system can usually not afford to start small, since the danger level is extremely high from the get go for rebel scum. ;)
That said, if someone managed to pull it off, i would be most impressed.
I realize this may not be the most sought after theme, but how about forests, druids, fey, and so on. The APs have been very gritty (which is not a criticism) but it would be nice to have something that's more about mystery and atmosphere, legends and mysticism.
Of course, I'll probably purchase whatever you come up with, especially if the quality stays as good as the latest one.
just switch "Whimsy Chris" for "Fake Healer" and this is my thoughts.
FH
Thank you Fake Healer for supporting my thoughts. You know, a large scale wilderness war (if we must use the war theme) complete with fey, druids, rangers, treants, and so on could be very unique, interesting, imaginative, and full of epic legends, magic, mystery, intrigue, and so forth. And dense woods always have opportunities for forgotten castles, underground caverns, haunted woods, etc. Anyway, I think it would be cool...anyone else?
Brent Stroh wrote:
The thing that concerns me with a war theme is that by nature, it should be open and provide a lot of choices. Do we raid the enemy supply chain, reinforce the border, or try to break the seige at Fort Whatever? By its nature, Dungeon isn't the place for an almost free-form plot.
The 'carve a kingdom from the wilderness' idea seems to have the same problem - it's too open. Some of the other ideas have the opposite problem - too restrictive. 'Let's all be orcs' is on that list, I'm afraid.
Response:
>>I admit, I'm not too fond of the war theme either, but that seems to be the popular direction of this thread. I'm more interested in the wilderness theme. I don't think it would be any more open ended than an Isle of Dread adventure or seafaring adventure. Motivation is key.
All of this speculation... shall I just TELL you what the next AP is about?
It's about a straw golem given limited intelligence, a weretiger who has lost the will to fight, and silver plated warforged who longs to know human emotions.
Oh, and a bard named Dorothy.
OZAP is on its way.
Creative Director
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An adventure path that's "free form" and allows characters to do what they want and choose where they go isn't an adventure path. It's a campagin setting.
An adventure assumes a certain amount of "railroading." And that's not a bad thing. I've been in plenty of free-form campaigns before where the DM gives out a half dozen plot hooks and no one can decide on which one to do so we start them all and don't finish any of them.
An adventure path that's "free form" and allows characters to do what they want and choose where they go isn't an adventure path. It's a campagin setting.
An adventure assumes a certain amount of "railroading." And that's not a bad thing. I've been in plenty of free-form campaigns before where the DM gives out a half dozen plot hooks and no one can decide on which one to do so we start them all and don't finish any of them.
I hear that. The secret, James, is to kick people under the table. Roleplay freedom is wonderful, but not getting kicked in the shins is even better. They'll come to the right decisions. Believe you me.
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All of this speculation... shall I just TELL you what the next AP is about?
It's about a straw golem given limited intelligence, a weretiger who has lost the will to fight, and silver plated warforged who longs to know human emotions.
Oh, and a bard named Dorothy.
OZAP is on its way.
Can I join the lollipop guild?!?!?
Can I join the lollipop guild?!?!?All of this speculation... shall I just TELL you what the next AP is about?
It's about a straw golem given limited intelligence, a weretiger who has lost the will to fight, and silver plated warforged who longs to know human emotions.
Oh, and a bard named Dorothy.
OZAP is on its way.
If you're a halfling with a bowery boys accent. Sure thing! :)
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If you're a halfling with a bowery boys accent. Sure thing! :)Can I join the lollipop guild?!?!?All of this speculation... shall I just TELL you what the next AP is about?
It's about a straw golem given limited intelligence, a weretiger who has lost the will to fight, and silver plated warforged who longs to know human emotions.
Oh, and a bard named Dorothy.
OZAP is on its way.
Welcome to Munchkin town! Gettem boys!
How about centering it around an artefact?
I once ran a campaign that at 1st level involved the PCs clearing out an iron mine who's ore was rotting. On investigation, the party discovered an evil diviner trying to open an ancient vault; her strange divining spells were causing the rot. This vault held an artefact called the Heart of Moradin, which was about the size of a fist and was shaped like a shining diamond, and this artefact was the tool that Moradin had used when shaping the Earth - or Oerth.
The party rescued the artefact, but a great part of the campaign was then protecting the location of it, which involved dealing with a corrupt militia, which lead to crossing swords with a multi-layered underground organisation and then to a Great Red Wyrm. This Dragon was in control of machinations from the beginning and required the Heart in a ceremony whereby she would replace her heart with the artefact and thereby be able to manipulate the material plane much like a God controls his plane.
The details above are extremely sketchy but you can get the gist that it was indeed an adventure path in that the players were "directed" by their actions and consequences within the campaign.
If anyone would like more details or *ahem* if James would like to use this idea for AP4 I'm more than happy to oblige. :)
I would like to see an adventure path that includes a vast desert and a BBEG that's trying to resurrect an ancient city from some buried civilization. It could involve lots of high level magic users and introduce a bunch of new monsters.
Do you think the next AP be 4th edition?
It will probably have to be a little more 'classical' I guess. As Erik displayed his lack of Eberron knowledge, I would rather not see orcs vs elves. Evil humans and hobgoblins vs elves and fey could be done very well. Lawful evil vs. chaotic good, so to speak. In Eberron this would be Valenar vs Darguun, which are very close neighbors. Both lands were once Cyre and many residents still consider themsevles Cyrans. Oh wait, I think Mr. Mona just rolled his eyes at the sight of proper pronouns that aren't from Greyhawk...
I would like to see an adventure path that includes a vast desert and a BBEG that's trying to resurrect an ancient city from some buried civilization. It could involve lots of high level magic users and introduce a bunch of new monsters.
Do you think the next AP be 4th edition?
It will probably have to be a little more 'classical' I guess. As Erik displayed his lack of Eberron knowledge, I would rather not see orcs vs elves. Evil humans and hobgoblins vs elves and fey could be done very well. Lawful evil vs. chaotic good, so to speak. In Eberron this would be Valenar vs Darguun, which are very close neighbors. Both lands were once Cyre and many residents still consider themsevles Cyrans. Oh wait, I think Mr. Mona just rolled his eyes at the sight of proper pronouns that aren't from Greyhawk...
Damn, dude. Could you be any more condescending? I understand your love for all things Eberron, but your outright hostility at someone else's love for another campaign setting besides your own favorite is belligerent, contentious and offensive.
Perhaps you should reconsider your stance and realize that just because someone doesn't share the same loves as you do they don't deserve such vitriolic diatribe.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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As Erik displayed his lack of Eberron knowledge, I would rather not see orcs vs elves.
Funny. Seems to me that I displayed Eberron's inflexibility insofar as handling the simplest of standard fantasy tropes. YMMV. In any event, it won't be elves vs. orcs for a variety of reasons.
Evil humans and hobgoblins vs elves and fey could be done very well. Lawful evil vs. chaotic good, so to speak. In Eberron this would be Valenar vs Darguun, which are very close neighbors. Both lands were once Cyre and many residents still consider themsevles Cyrans. Oh wait, I think Mr. Mona just rolled his eyes at the sight of proper pronouns that aren't from Greyhawk...
Nah.
--Erik
but your outright hostility at someone else's love for another campaign setting besides your own favorite is belligerent, contentious and offensive.
Perhaps you should reconsider your stance and realize that just because someone doesn't share the same loves as you do they don't deserve such vitriolic diatribe.
What? I was just being a little snarky. You read way too much into my comments.
Funny. Seems to me that I displayed Eberron's inflexibility insofar as handling the simplest of standard fantasy tropes. YMMV. In any event, it won't be elves vs. orcs for a variety of reasons.
There are plenty of opportunities for elves vs orcs in Eberron, but not on an epic 1st to 20th nation vs nation scale. Seriously, an entire campaign, with a beefy amount of 20th level orcs and elves at the end game, would not fit into most published (or homebrew) settings. As you can see from some of the replies on this post some people would see it as a pretty lame idea to wade through for 20 levels. Whatever the 'variety of reasons' are this is probably number 1.
If you involve time travel (which could be explained through planar time quality differences) you could have an invasion of all of the mightiest fallen orc and elf warriors from the past. Even Eberron can provide this. That might be unusual yet familiar enough to consider.
Due to the planes the elves and orcs traveled through in the afterlife you could apply dozens of cool monster templates and classes to these common enemies. I think this might make an interesting campaign.
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Funny. Seems to me that I displayed Eberron's inflexibility insofar as handling the simplest of standard fantasy tropes. YMMV. In any event, it won't be elves vs. orcs for a variety of reasons.There are plenty of opportunities for elves vs orcs in Eberron, but not on an epic 1st to 20th nation vs nation scale. Seriously, an entire campaign, with a beefy amount of 20th level orcs and elves at the end game, would not fit into most published (or homebrew) settings. As you can see from some of the replies on this post some people would see it as a pretty lame idea to wade through for 20 levels. Whatever the 'variety of reasons' are this is probably number 1.
If you involve time travel (which could be explained through planar time quality differences) you could have an invasion of all of the mightiest fallen orc and elf warriors from the past. Even Eberron can provide this. That might be unusual yet familiar enough to consider.
Due to the planes the elves and orcs traveled through in the afterlife you could apply dozens of cool monster templates and classes to these common enemies. I think this might make an interesting campaign.
I guess you could take a 5 nation, and make it into Iuz, and then it would have Iuz, and make the orcs have +1 h.p., and call them hobgoblins, and then there you go. Hey, anybody want a pdf of my conversion???
I guess you could take a 5 nation, and make it into Iuz, and then it would have Iuz, and make the orcs have +1 h.p., and call them hobgoblins, and then there you go. Hey, anybody want a pdf of my conversion???
Still enjoying the Halloween candy Heathansson, or are you hopped up on sugar skulls?
(It's the Day of the Dead...of Iuz).
Seriously, people can write books on the cultural differences between orcs and hobgoblins. Wait a minute, I think they have...
What a thorn does. WHAT A THORN DOES!
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Never in any post or any internal discussion did we consider an adventure path featuring a war between elves and orcs in which elves and orcs would be the sole combatants. The idea was to use a conflict between the elves of Celene, the savage humanoid armies of the Pomarj, and the folk of the Wild Coast as a _backdrop_ for a 12-adventure storyline, not the plot.
FYI.
--Erik
War - good! (fictitious, RPG War that is)
Terresterial threats, okay.
How about a couple very stray, sleep deprived thoughts:
I'm just now buying up some of the other AP back issues after getting most of AoW's and playing none so far, although STAP looks very cool so far and I'm considering buying SCAP.
I like that these are based on Oerth, but in an undeveloped, under-utilized corner. Sounds like the SE corner of Jeklea Bay is now fully populated, drawn out and very, very cool, if you like nasty, demon inspired badness in the Jungle/Mountains/Underground, and really who doesn't?
Why not take a similar approach w/ an undeveloped area further to the West? The surviving Bakluni nations, such as Zeif and even Ket offer some fascinating, culture clashing, pseudo-crusader options that I haven't seen developed much if at all. Could tap genasi, and other elemental/genie-esque critters, blend in some Aladdin/Arabian nights stuff, this could be really very cool, in my opinion w/ lots and lots of options. I never played Al'Qadim or whatever it was, although I think I played the old first edition mummy mods, don't remember the names. I would go exactly this route, but the PC's could be needed, at least in part, because they, or most of them, are not part of this culture due to taboos, etc.
Could also, work in other settings w/o too much trouble, gives you the culture clash w/o the elf/orc cliche'and builds on one of the major strengths of the other AP's, in my opinion. Perhaps at stake is full on East vs. West collision.....hmmm, not that I'm in marketing, but also very topical given current events......
Of course, there is also always the sacred and mysterious Blackmoor too.......
The idea was to use a conflict between ... as a _backdrop_ for a 12-adventure storyline, not the plot.
Personally, this is exactly what I would love to see. I don't need the PCs, or even the villains, be an integral part of whatever war or conflict is brewing, but I would love to see it as "scenery."
War does not have to be an Event (capital "E") or the central theme of a story. It can just as easily be a part of the environment: an obstacle or nuisance to what the PCs are really trying to accomplish.
That's what I have my fingers crossed for, though I'm sure I'll be thrilled with whatever AP you guys put together!
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Never in any post or any internal discussion did we consider an adventure path featuring a war between elves and orcs in which elves and orcs would be the sole combatants. The idea was to use a conflict between the elves of Celene, the savage humanoid armies of the Pomarj, and the folk of the Wild Coast as a _backdrop_ for a 12-adventure storyline, not the plot.
FYI.
--Erik
Cool. It'd be nice to see NPC's such as Turrosh Mak, Turin Deathstalker, or Prince Brightflame make an appearance in an adventure path.
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Howabout an adventure path in western Oerik's Sundered Empire? Would Paizo be allowed to use material from Chainmail? Not only is it a great setting filled with warfare, but it's practically untapped since little has been written about it. Tie-ins with the other AP's would be possible since it's technically part of the Greyhawk setting and Paizo wouldn't have to worry about possible conflicts with Living Greyhawk continuity. If not an adventure path, howabout an adventure one of these days?
Never in any post or any internal discussion did we consider an adventure path featuring a war between elves and orcs in which elves and orcs would be the sole combatants. The idea was to use a conflict between the elves of Celene, the savage humanoid armies of the Pomarj, and the folk of the Wild Coast as a _backdrop_ for a 12-adventure storyline, not the plot.
FYI.
--Erik
This backdrop sounds like a wonderful idea. Did it meet with rejection, or is it still on the table?
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Perhaps it's time for a new Greyhawk Wars. That other war was a long long time ago. 3.5 Greyhawk is revitalized due to Paizo's efforts, and it deserves its own catastrophically wide scale bloodshed. Hey, wait, did I just say that?
I thought Greyhawk was revitalized because of the Living Greyhawk campaign?
As was often said of the Age of Worms, it was great in part because it made use of classic elements of the game (Kyuss, Tenser, etc.) that have been languishing in limbo, waiting for a creative mind to seize upon.
I would like an adventure path that (like others have already mentioned) stays "down to earth" on the prime material plane. I would dearly like for at least 1 or 2 trips to lost/forgotten cities, particularly the Forgotten City in the Sea of Dust and the lost Suel city in the Suss forest, neither of which have ever received adequate treatment. Maybe an attempt to restore the long lost Suel empire and heavy involvement from our friends in the Scarlet Brotherhood. Failing that, how about a Beowulf-like viking epic up in the Thilronian peninsula...
Here it goes. I like the idea of there being a chance at a large scale war. What I don't like is the idea of one race against another. I would rather it start with something that involves ideologies. Say about slavery, or something along them lines. Where enemies and allies can be found in many different races throughout the worlds in which we choose to play in. To add to this you have the anti-party involved. Where the evil party is the ones stirring up this slavery revolution that is taking over areas that never held this sentiment. Through some type of living spell or something like that, peoples mind are being manipulated. Wars are being started that shouldn't have, come to be yet are. Then the final battles involve to powerful parties, and the final conflict with the grand master.
Assassinations, treachery, infadelity, and war this is how it should be.
P.S. To put the finishing touches there should be back-up info on the players being able to be the evil party via the web.
Right o' old chaps.
Fabulous ideas circling about here, just wanted to add my own two coppers...
I think the entirety of the next Adventure Path should be written by Messrs. Logue and Vaughan, as truly they are the finest authors ever to grace the pages of Dungeon. I'll be bowing out of the next one. I do believe my stunning inability to turn a worthy phrase or craft a halfway decent NPC has finally caught up with me. Don't fret over me now dearies. I'm certain I'll find a job at the local pub serving up bland food and watered down spirits (bland and watered down are, after all, two things I have vast experience with as any of you who have read my adventures surely can attest to).
Cherrio all. Chin up. I'll miss you all next time around, but mayhaps if I improve my writing talents, the editors shall take pity on me and allow me to partake of the seventh or eighth path.
Huzzah!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'd like to see an Adventure Path based around ninjas. Lots and lots of ninjas. At least a million. And they shouldn't be adjusted due to game balance and crap like that. Make them all CR 20, because in real life, that's how powerful ninjas are.
The whole point of the campaign would be to not get your ass handed to you as you seek out Chuck Norris to defeat the plague of ninjas.
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The Return of the Imperium
The Imperator (emperor) of the Suel unleashes his army upon the flanaess: An undead horde of unimaginable size! The Imperator himself is a Lich-of-Awesome-Power, who has spent most of the last millenium since the twin cataclysms in Temperal Stasis, having taken refuge (with his court and Imperial Guard) when the Rain of Colorless Fire laid waste to his realm.
The horde marches through the Hellfurnaces, following the path the Suel used a millenia ago. The yeomanry is the first to fall, and now a bitter war with Keoland rages. Freedom fighters among the citizenry of the Yeomanry rise up and try to disrupt the seemingly endless horde of undead streaming from the Ancient Suel realm. Among those freedom fighters, a group of heroes emerge...
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I'd like to see an Adventure Path based around ninjas. Lots and lots of ninjas. At least a million. And they shouldn't be adjusted due to game balance and crap like that. Make them all CR 20, because in real life, that's how powerful ninjas are.
The whole point of the campaign would be to not get your ass handed to you as you seek out Chuck Norris to defeat the plague of ninjas.
Could there be Pokemon's too?