Sounds like "Red Arrow/Black Shield" for v3.5.
There was a thread over at Enworld about what people wanted from the next AP. Eric Mona had a post that stated they were considering making AP4 revolve around a war between Elves and Orcs. Regardless, the consensus was this AP should avoid demon lords and such, employing a terrestrial threat instead...
I wouldn't mind things going the opposite way in which the PCs start on the outer plans and the events there are going to revolve around the happenings on several Prime Material planes. The PCs then travel to several different worlds... could be tie ins to Greyhawk, FR, DarkSun, etc., etc.
Sean Mahoney
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Yeah - mind flayers!
Not underdark-dwelling-waiting-for-adventurers-to-fight-them mind flayers, but want-to-extinguish-the-sun-coming-to-get-ya mind flayers!
You could have half-crazed cultists worshipping a fictitious god (power leeched out of a dead deity floating on the astral?), extraplanar aberrations, a side trip to the astral plane, potential githzerai allies, madness and nightmares, and all sorts of dark horror.
That'd be cool.
Yeah - mind flayers!
Not underdark-dwelling-waiting-for-adventurers-to-fight-them mind flayers, but want-to-extinguish-the-sun-coming-to-get-ya mind flayers!
You could have half-crazed cultists worshipping a fictitious god (power leeched out of a dead deity floating on the astral?), extraplanar aberrations, a side trip to the astral plane, potential githzerai allies, madness and nightmares, and all sorts of dark horror.
That'd be cool.
That sounds awesome. I love aberrations - mind flayers most especially, and you can never get enough crazed cultists and apocalyptic plots.
Best of all though, something like this would be easy to adapt to any setting, which I think is vital to an adventure path. The Elves vs. Orcs idea that was suggested above would be tough to adapt to Eberron, and I suspect, many home-brew settings, which would leave a lot of players out in the cold.
That's the beauty of outsiders and extra-planar monstrosities, they fit in anywhere.
::double boggle::
Elves v. Orcs??? How mundane, how about something a little grander. Maybe Elves/Dwarfs/Humans alliance v. Dragons/Giants or an invasion from the undersea or aerial kingdoms. We have a whole realm of possibilities to explore so why bother with the stereotypical elf v. gobinoid.
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There was a thread over at Enworld about what people wanted from the next AP. Eric Mona had a post that stated they were considering making AP4 revolve around a war between Elves and Orcs. Regardless, the consensus was this AP should avoid demon lords and such, employing a terrestrial threat instead...
I think that seriously rocks. I hope it's true.
Seriously? You couldn't have an elf/orc war in Eberron?
::boggle::
--Erik
Not many orcs - a primitive culture in decline v a sophisticated elven society. A bit one-sided.
An elf/hobgoblin war would be perfectly feasible. Or elf/giant. Or elf/dragon.
One-sided as in the way we're kick terrorist butt all over our shiny, safer, real world?
It all depends on how you frame your war. Imagine an elven occupation force having to fend off horrid everythings.
GGG
Elves v. Orcs??? How mundane, how about something a little grander.But it has clean, classic lines.....
That's part of the problem, what do you do for the first five levels of yours characters adventuring life? You kill orcs!!! Why rehash something that has been done in every fantasy movie and novel from Lord of the Rings to the Midnight campaign setting.
We have an entire mutiverse to choose from so why bother with the least interesting of the batch.
I would certainly love a war based adventure path much like Red Hand of Doom was, I craze it really, but elf vs orc is does seem alittle cliche to me.
That being said however, I am not against elf vs orc war ap, just as long as their is good reasons other then ELF KILL THEM... ORC KILL THEM...
Though as long as the adventure path features multiple alliances with alot of roleplaying, and combat both small-scale and large, it would be cool.
I have faith that the Dungeon crew could make an elf-orc war quite interesting, even the low levels of the adventure. Maybe in their hands it would even have some interesting twists so that it is not quite so black and white. For example, what if the orcs repopulate their tribes by kidnapping non-orc victims and incorporating them into the tribe, so that when the human-types raid, they find their own kin on the other side?
Personally, though, I'd like to see a frost-fell themed adventure path. Something that combines Shackleton's and Amundsen's famous Antarctic exploits with a Beren-and-Luthien quest to steal a valuable artifact from under a powerful adversary's nose. The villain is not evil per se, but coldly neutral to some important cause, unwilling to bring said artifact into play on the side of good. The enchantress queen of the ice elves, who dwells in a great ice-castle at the center of a frozen continent. Her people ride mammoths or fight on skis, making quick getaways over the snow while their enemies plod through the drifts after them. All kinds of interesting possibilities for using cool ice-fey like huldrefolk, wendigos, and yuki-onna, as well as old favorites like the frost giants.
Am I hired yet? ;)
Seriously, though--even if it's not the whole AP, this could make a great 3-adventure arc. Maybe I ought to put in a proposal.
The Elves vs. Orcs idea that was suggested above would be tough to adapt to Eberron, and I suspect, many home-brew settings, which would leave a lot of players out in the cold.
Seriously? You couldn't have an elf/orc war in Eberron?
::boggle::
--Erik
It would be pretty tough to rationalize. The only sizeable population of orcs in Khorvaire live in The Shadow Marches and the Eldeen Reaches. Furthermore, in Eberron, orcs are not the evil, warlike savages as they are portrayed in most settings. This might wreak havoc with the underlying assumptions of the adventure path.
The only sizeable population of elves on Khorvaire are in Valenar, and while Valenar elves are very warlike and agressive they live on the opposite side of the continent. Given the Valenar elves' frequent raids into the Talenta Plains, an Elf/Halfling war would be much more believable. Getting an army of orcs and elves together and finding a reason for them to fight might be a stretch.
Elves vs orcs would be great! Refreshing even. Paizo has made demon lords the next drow, please stop it!
...and as bonus: Eric Boyd should have a field day converting it to FR, which would be sooooo kewl.
Skybleeders
Elves vs. ... Dwarves. Rarely talked about, never done-at least not with DnD. But I'll never get that illo from the old 2e Complete Book of Dwarves out of my mind of the two races mixing it up...axe vs. longsword, crossbow vs. longbow, law vs. chaos and the PCs (regardless of race) caught in the middle...
Just let two human kings take the battle to the poor folks, while they eat and drink and have their women!
I like the way you think Dryder.
How about and I know WOTC would never approve the idea of campaign setting v. campaign setting. Thanks to the Wizards Three we know that wizards from Greyhawk, Forgetten Realms and at one time Krynn got to together discuss matters of minor importance.
I'm not trying to start an arguement about whose setting is better or which NPC's are more powerful. I'm just using Raymond E. Feist Riftwar as an example of the fun you can have when you have two diffent worlds clash.
Don't know about you but I would love to see Iuz raze Waterdeep to the ground or The Seven Sisters confront Queen Vol.
Maybe it might generate more interest in those setting and that's good for buisness isn't it?
What if the AP had the players being the orcs, oppressed by the elves or whatever. Then it becomes a bit heroic... in an odd sort of way. Seek out the shiny macguffin of orcus and empower the oppressed tribes to seize back control or restore balance.
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A war between two feuding races would be cool if you use the inititial few adventures as a springboard where tensions are rising and the party is trying to navigate the "frontier." Than at intermediate levels have the full scale invasion force and combat that requires the party to choose sides and even work at the fringes of battles ... maybe as war profiteers or taking advantage of stopping skirmishing forces.
Then when the attain high levels they may need to broker a peace and even search for some symbol or artifact that would seal the deal for the peace ... any races would work ... and this could be used on the Prime Material Plane or any other if you choose.
If it is set in Greyhawk I would like to see someone try to reunite the Great Kingdom. Rauxes could reemerge from it's magical-vortex-thingy. Ivid's followers could find something in there to put him back in power. He then starts reclaiming old property, like Nyrond etc...
Of course this might be seen as the Greyhawk wars repeated.
Perhaps it's time for a new Greyhawk Wars. That other war was a long long time ago. 3.5 Greyhawk is revitalized due to Paizo's efforts, and it deserves its own catastrophically wide scale bloodshed. Hey, wait, did I just say that?
I agree with Arcmagik, an elf/orc war's a bit cliched. Furthermore, how could it happen in Greyhawk? IIRC, there are no elven nations in that setting.
An against the giants AP, and/or trolls, or dragons, or lycanthropes (with dire animals or dinosaurs as the base animal instead of standard animals), or something more complex involving protean scourges (MMIII) and chameleons (Races of Destiny) would be cool.
Quickie recipe for world at war:
Add a few doppleganger types. They substitute themselves for leaders both political and military. They are being commanded by a (your best guess here) who desires (your best guess here).
Nations against nations, perhaps races against races.
Break out Heroes of Battle and buff your warmages... this is gonna get fun.
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I absolutely love the idea of the next AP dealing with a war between the races - there are so many interesting ways you could take something like that, both by allowing people to play out truly iconic battle scenes and by dreaming up twists to put on the most familiar ideas. I'm more than confident that the Paizo staff can keep it interesting over a 10-12 adventure arc. Elves/orcs works perfectly, because those two races are the archetypal light/dark dichotomy within D&D - as I said before, you'll get interesting games both by playing that straight and by introducing shades of gray.
As for Festivus' idea of having the PC's play orcs, I think it would be cool for one story, but it doesn't have the broad appeal to force everyone to play a team of orcs for an entire AP. I know the people I game with would revolt if I told them "Hey gang, I'm about to run a 1-2 year campaign in which you all have to be orcs!"
Seriously? You couldn't have an elf/orc war in Eberron?
::boggle::
--Erik
Exchange orcs for goblinoids, set it on the Valenar/Darguun border — feasible.
Exchange elves for a mixed community, set it on the Eldeen/Shadow Marsh border — feasible.
Geography and terrain would be larger obstacles than the participants...
> Add a few doppleganger types. They substitute themselves for leaders both political and military. They are being commanded by a (your best guess here) who desires (your best guess here).
The Jade, the chameleon PrC is a really cool prestige class that’s available to humans and doppelgangers that lets them mimic pretty much any class. At higher levels, when they gain access to the double aptitude ability, they’re even cooler (eg. start an encounter as a mimicked cleric/mage, buff themselves, then mimic a cleric/fighter).
Protean scourges are a really cool race of shapechangers, and if you also give them access to the chameleon PrC (which would be a nonassociated class), they’d be even cooler. The best thing about them is that they can split into two creatures; imagine this, send 3 of them against the PCs, and one fireball later there's now 6 of the evil sods...
Throw in some natural lycanthropes (based on the types I suggested earlier) as well, and you have all that awesome Cold War sneakiness. Your PCs would never know whom to trust…
When I posted that I had your entry in quotes and but lost it before submission. All credit to the master. Great idea. I like that splitting protean scourge scenario.
Edit: Oh no, your quote was in there. Good for me.
I realize this may not be the most sought after theme, but how about forests, druids, fey, and so on. The APs have been very gritty (which is not a criticism) but it would be nice to have something that's more about mystery and atmosphere, legends and mysticism.
Of course, I'll probably purchase whatever you come up with, especially if the quality stays as good as the latest one.
The keyboards a smoking with this topic. :)
I wouldn't mind things going the opposite way in which the PCs start on the outer plans and the events there are going to revolve around the happenings on several Prime Material planes. The PCs then travel to several different worlds... could be tie ins to Greyhawk, FR, DarkSun, etc., etc.
Sean Mahoney
I was thinking exactly the same way before I read your post. I would enjoy a more otherworldly campaign where the party treks through the planes on a mission of some sorts.
While there has been plenty of evil outsiders in the other adventures a campaign based around a Formian Invasion would contain the WAR-theme people seem to be interested in and also build a huge array of planar based adventure locations.
Alternatively I like the idea of a war-based Adventure Path using the more traditional races. You would have to add some variations to the races to make the game interesting but I would enjoy the more mundane feel of the campaign.
Just my preferences though
Delvesdeep
Personally I think the next adventure path should have pirates and dinosaurs.
Just kidding. I like the idea of a wilderness fey-ish AP. Something with treants and dryads and such.
El Skootro
Not sure what the next should be but their should be one.
I am coming home to greyhawk right now too so I would like to see greyhawk again.
I am for a random focus of some under appreciated area of greyhawk but lets leave the tropics.
Whatever is ultimately decided upon for the next adventure path, I have confidence in Mona & Jacob's ability to do it right.
I hope whatever is chosen does NOT have to tip-toe around "what works in Eberron." I comprehend the need to market the magazine & adventure path 4 to all potential buyers, but I do not wish to see the overall AP design and individual authors hamstrung by one campaigns "limitations". You're the GM's, if you want it in Eberron, you'll make it work. The same goes for you Forgetable Realms fans.
I hope whatever is chosen does NOT have to tip-toe around "what works in Eberron." I comprehend the need to market the magazine & adventure path 4 to all potential buyers, but I do not wish to see the overall AP design and individual authors hamstrung by one campaigns "limitations". You're the GM's, if you want it in Eberron, you'll make it work. The same goes for you Forgetable Realms fans.
No one said anything about "tip-toeing" around what works in Eberron, or the Forgotten Realms, only that whatever is chosen needs to be readily adaptable to the major campaign settings in order to justify the time and effort gone into producing it. You're the GM, if you want the adventure more customized to your setting, you'll make it work.
Completely off the subject of the WAR theme, I'd like to voice an idea.
Why not a campaign revolving around the Far Realm? There is so much material for it that is only brought up every once in a while, and I'm sure there are many out there who want a nice maddening AP.
Myself included.
Along the war-theme lines, what if the next adventure path does not focus on the destruction of the world? The world is already destroyed. War has ravaged the PCs lands and they are under the control of an invading force. The goal is to take back the lands little by little. The final confrontation being the capture of the enemy capitol/king/whatever.
Another option as hinted at in other posts, 2 powerful forces vie for control of the world (dragons vs giants as one example) and the PCs are caught in the middle. Their loyalties could vacilate from adventure to adventure.
These themes have probably been done ("Simpsons did it!") but the crew at Paizo are a crafty bunch and could make it work.
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I realize this may not be the most sought after theme, but how about forests, druids, fey, and so on. The APs have been very gritty (which is not a criticism) but it would be nice to have something that's more about mystery and atmosphere, legends and mysticism.
Of course, I'll probably purchase whatever you come up with, especially if the quality stays as good as the latest one.
just switch "Whimsy Chris" for "Fake Healer" and this is my thoughts.
FH
I actually was thinking about this back when the thread was still theorizing about an elf/orc war . . . but if you are talking about a war, what about a doomsday machine? I was starting to think about the old Spelljammer doomsday beasts that the goblinoids were trying to use in the Unhuman Wars and thinking, wouldn't it be cool to race an opposing force to one of these, and have to decide wheather or not to use the thing against your foes if you got there first? Or if you got there at the same time as your "traditional" enemy, only to find a third force that hates both of you already about to activate it?
Since all the previous APs had themes or somewhat related themes dealing with the Amedio region, why not have the fourth AP deal with the civil wars in the Hold of the Sea Princes region.
I was thinking that since the previous APs have the PCs saving the world, why not reverse the concept a bit and have the PCs liberating the world? Something along the lines of Mistborn or Star Wars where the AP begins with EVIL having taken control. The AP would follow the PCs as they rise out of the ranks of the oppressed to liberate their home city, then range further afield to incite rebellion against the Despot and his/her forces.
Although this would be a self-contained story like the other APs, for grins and giggles, why not offer up a conversion document/article for those DMs who want to run this AP as an extension of a failed AP. In short, if the PCs failed to defeat the BBEG from SCAP, AoWAP or STAP, this AP would represent a later generation of heroes fixing the mess.
Just some thoughts...
