I've always loved the Vecna stories and, after re-reading the adventure trilogy (Veca Lives!, Vecna Reborn, and Die, Vecna, Die!) I was thinking about doing a bit more research.
Is there more information about the Serpent out in D&D land?
I know that Vecna and Kas originally came from a time before the Sueloise and Balkunish, in a proto-Flan time period. When would be the best approximation of when the adventures take place in the Greyhawk timeline? Obviously it's before the Greyhawk Wars and after the Second Rising of the Temple of ELemental Evil, but that still covers a lot of ground. :)
I'm skimming Canonfire! and I'm doing some web searches, but any other books with information that helps me out would be greatly appreciated!
The Suel empire lasted for 5,000 years, and Vecna actually lived during that time in Eastern Oerik. Canonfire is a great place to look and you'll find some things there that will be exactly what you are looking for. Vecna engaged in a war of anihiliation against the elves of eastern oerik. Very unpleasant chap.
The Suel empire lasted for 5,000 years, and Vecna actually lived during that time in Eastern Oerik. Canonfire is a great place to look and you'll find some things there that will be exactly what you are looking for. Vecna engaged in a war of anihiliation against the elves of eastern oerik. Very unpleasant chap.
Yah, I've pulled together a bit more information since I posted the request; specifically, I've found the Wikipedia timeline for Greyhawk to be one of the best places to stop by first.
Well, that and an artile a certain Iquander wrote a few years ago. (Excellent article, Erik!)
I was making the assumption that the ur-Flan of the Sheldomar Valley were precursors to the Twin Cataclysms. Things are starting to fall into place now that I've got a bit more information on hand. :)
The Suel empire lasted for 5,000 years, and Vecna actually lived during that time in Eastern Oerik. Canonfire is a great place to look and you'll find some things there that will be exactly what you are looking for. Vecna engaged in a war of anihiliation against the elves of eastern oerik. Very unpleasant chap.
Does any one but me worry about things like - "The empire lasted 5,000 years" - I mean think about real world analogs, name an empire that lasted 5,000 years - hell even a people that lasted in a location for that long - invaders, plagues, famine, clear out the space and make room for new ethnic groups.
The mayans rose and fell in less than 500 years (that time table is debatable yes - but true enough for what what most people percieve as "Mayan") and their culture covered reclaimed by the jungle in a couple hundred years - leaving whole cities to be rediscovered by people today - real cities temples, stone plazas, palaces. The egypt of the pharoes has been gone for les than 5,000 years and look at the level of change - I find the idea of a culture/empire remaining static enough to be percieved as the same - disturbing.
Probably should of gone on the rant thread - oops.
Time how do you fix it in thhe game?
Hi guys,
what is this Cannonfire you're talking about? Is it a website?
As for Vecna, I was just reading the article in dragon, where they write about him entering Sigil during the course of his ascension to godhood.
Is this stuff described somewhere in some book?
I can say that news of Sigil being destroyed were new for me.
Any better info from you guys?
Thanks!
Sven
Hi guys,
what is this Cannonfire you're talking about? Is it a website?
Yes, it is.Canonfire
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As for Vecna, I was just reading the article in dragon, where they write about him entering Sigil during the course of his ascension to godhood.
Is this stuff described somewhere in some book?
I can say that news of Sigil being destroyed were new for me.
Die, Vecna, Die!
It's an adventure that was published near the end of the 2nd edition run. Vecna dupes Iuz into entering Ravenloft, absorbs Iuz's power and twists the paradigm of Ravenloft (a place from which he cannot leave) to allow him access to Sigil (a place which he cannot enter).
The resultant chaos of having a Power in Sigil causes chaos throughout the multiverse, conveniently allowing for reasons to change over to 3.0. Sigil wasn't destroyed, but it suffered a great deal of trauma.
Edit: Vecna was already a demigod at this point in his career. It was the events in Vecna Lives!, Vecna Reborn, and Die, Vecna, Die! that caused him to increase his power to that of a Lesser God.
blah blah blah...slacking at work...
Get back to work you slacker! Aren't there some injured folk needing your help?
blah blah blah...slacking at work...Get back to work you slacker! Aren't there some injured folk needing your help?
*laughs* Yeah, I put 'em on hold to ask D&D questions. No wonder I'm not going anywhere in life! ;)
(Actually, I was on my break, so nyah! >:P)
BLARG?
...3.0 happened because Vecna went to Sigil?
I'm really feeling kind of woozy. So basically the reason that bards have better abilities, and guys suddenly have 10 NWPs a level instead of 2 every 3 levels, and hobbits turned into these cool little skinny guys with topknots and half-orcs and drow (not to mention trolls) became adventurers? The reason Dragonlance and Faerun and everyone else got to have their own cosmologies and Spelljammer became this game that doesn't exist--or maybe it does--or is it its own setting?
Kinda' makes you want to give "get into sigil free" visas to more evil gods...
BLARG?
...3.0 happened because Vecna went to Sigil?
*LOL* Not quite - that's a simplistic answer. Basically, the adventure states that, due to the stresses placed on the multiverse by having a Power enter Sigil, things will change in unforeseen ways. Blahblahblah.
There are more than a few people who equate it to the Time of Troubles in FR.
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Is there more information about the Serpent out in D&D land?
When would be the best approximation of when the adventures take place in the Greyhawk timeline? Obviously it's before the Greyhawk Wars and after the Second Rising of the Temple of ELemental Evil, but that still covers a lot of ground. :)
For the Serpent:
That depends on how you take the phrasing in "Guide to Hell," a late 2nd ed product (post-Planescape). It identifies a "Serpent" as the alter-ego of Asmodeus. Whether that is official will probably have to wait for FC II.As for when those three adventures took place, Vecna Lives! starts in 579 CY, and they should all be "finished" before the Greyhawk Wars start in 584 CY. That gives you 5 years to place them.
Does any one but me worry about things like - "The empire lasted 5,000 years" - I mean think about real world analogs, name an empire that lasted 5,000 years -
I find the idea of a culture/empire remaining static enough to be percieved as the same - disturbing.
The calendar is 5,000 years old.
That doesn't mean the empire was static.As for real world examples, you named one, Egypt. China is another. Both were places where the same name was used for a succession of ruling dynasties.
For the Serpent:
That depends on how you take the phrasing in "Guide to Hell," a late 2nd ed product (post-Planescape). It identifies a "Serpent" as the alter-ego of Asmodeus. Whether that is official will probably have to wait for FC II.
Yah, I came across that attribution, but I don't happen to own the book. Die, Vecna, Die! implies that the Serpent and the Lady of Pain come from the same place.
I may run a one-shot where they both are refugees from the Far Realms. *ponders*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vecna
and just remember... vecna cares: http://www.vecna.com/ess/Evolution/BPAD/index.shtml
Hey!
Speaking of Vecna references, for the past while I've been searching in vain for a copy of "Vecna - Hand of the Revenant" by Ironhammer Graphics. Would anyone on the messageboards have a line on getting a copy?
Ever since reading my "Vecna Lives!" module ages ago (what a terrifying adventure that would be...it sure would be awesome to get a 3.5e conversion for this - HINT HINT), I became fascinated with the evil mage sitting on his Spider Throne.
Big D!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vecna
and just remember... vecna cares: http://www.vecna.com/ess/Evolution/BPAD/index.shtml
Yah, after hitting Canonfire! and ENW, I hit wikipedia.
Whether you know it or not, I always bless you and the other wiki-hawks when doing Greyhawk research there. :)
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The resultant chaos of having a Power in Sigil causes chaos throughout the multiverse, conveniently allowing for reasons to change over to 3.0. Sigil wasn't destroyed, but it suffered a great deal of trauma.
There's a few problems with this idea though, namely that none of the rumored and purported planar changes at the end of the module actually resemble anything that happened between the end of 2e and the start of 3e. DVD has various outer planes vanishing, merging, new ones appearing... none of which happened.
Plus, DVD has some pretty large scale destruction in Sigil itself, but there's not a trace of that damage left around in any of the 3.x discussions of Sigil. The events of DVD, arguably one of the largest incidents in the city's history next to the death of Aoskar, the Great Upheaval, and the Faction War... it doesn't warrent so much as a mention in any sources prior to the Vecna article.
So we've got a conundrum. In theory DVD might have been intended to be used to transition people's 2e games into 3e, but how much if any of it do we accept as gospel because virtually none of its purported changes actually happened, much less its wacky theories on Her Serenity.
I ignore DVD in my own game, but, that said, Planewalker.com takes a bit of a middle ground: the events of DVD happened, but not the crazy OOC theories it tosses around, and there's considerable question about any rumored cosmology changes (the stuff that didn't happen between 2e and 3e is simply speculation and unfounded myth). Plus, it's left open just how Vecna got into Sigil. It's suggested that he, despite his own beliefs perhaps, was -intentionally- allowed into the city, and that the entire event was simply one step in a much larger series of events now sprung into motion by The Lady in order to affect things outside of the City of Doors. Maybe. We don't have the timescale to really step back and put it into larger context, but we do know it's plausible given that The Lady doesn't seem to operate within the constraints of normal linear time (as 'Faction War' made obvious).
DVD had its problems, big ones, but it's not a complete wash. It can still be reworked to fit into what actually has been written in 3.x sources, but some of the crazy, setting breaking things get tossed out the window in the process.
[And myself, I prefer to see The Serpent, as originally conceived, as simply Vecna's own madness giving him an idea of magic as a living thing, not a sentient uber creature talking to him.]
Todd,
You have valid points, and I've addressed all of them in my own chronicle. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of DVD for the exact reasons you've laid out - it all seems a bit too heavy-handed, and doesn't correspond with how I see the multiverse operating - and isn't backed up by most of the information presented in 3.0 or 3.5.
As I generally run FR, the canonicity of DVD doesn't really impact my standard games, but it does affect my planar games in Sigil. IMC, I assume that the damage was far worse than originally reported (as is the case with most large-scale disasters). I'm not a big fan of how the Lady of Pain was portrayed, but then I imagine having a Power walk in Sigil would definitely attract her attention.
Really, I'm far more interested in the Serpent than Vecna. If it was a plot device to make the adventures go, that's cool, but I really like the idea of the Serpent. I may use the concept to introduce truenamers into my game.
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There's a few problems with this idea though, namely that none of the rumored and purported planar changes at the end of the module actually resemble anything that happened between the end of 2e and the start of 3e. DVD has various outer planes vanishing, merging, new ones appearing... none of which happened.
Plus, DVD has some pretty large scale destruction in Sigil itself, but there's not a trace of that damage left around in any of the 3.x discussions of Sigil. The events of DVD, arguably one of the largest incidents in the city's history next to the death of Aoskar, the Great Upheaval, and the Faction War... it doesn't warrent so much as a mention in any sources prior to the Vecna article.
Lots of outer planes changed. Have you seen the para-elemental or quasi-elemental planes lately? The Plane of Shadow changed its nature. A lot of planar things changed.
As for DVD, it didn't cause significant damage in Sigil. The entire section took place in and around the ruins of the Armory. Faction Wars caused a lot more damage, hence the Armory being ruined. (And thus the presence of Ely Cromlich in DVD and from there to the article.) I'd have to check exact dates, but I think DVD was one of the last, if not the last, adventure set in Sigil. So except for the Manual of the Planes 3, you won't find any references to it because it hadn't happened yet.
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Lots of outer planes changed. Have you seen the para-elemental or quasi-elemental planes lately? The Plane of Shadow changed its nature. A lot of planar things changed.
Outside of the fact that none of those are outer planes:
They, their natives, and locations specific to them are still around. They're just no longer referred to as distinct planes. The only alteration is one of semantics, not substance. The doomguard citadels on the quasiplanes are in the 3.x planar handbook in 'border regions' of the cardinal elemental planes, quasielemental vacuum is referenced as the border of elemental air with negative energy in the Fiendish Codex, and the archomental of paraelemental ice was in Dragon just recently.
The Plane of Shadow is virtually unchanged in 3e versus the 2e detail (such as in Ed Bonny's article on the then demiplane). It was spoken of as nearly infinite in size back then, and it's really just grown into the role it had already been groomed for.
The one major change was alterations to the Astral plane at the expense of the Ethereal plane, and those were all changed OOC, not in character, and were done so expressly for game mechanics reasons because of crunch changes to a few spells.
As for DVD, it didn't cause significant damage in Sigil. The entire section took place in and around the ruins of the Armory. Faction Wars caused a lot more damage, hence the Armory being ruined.
The late events of DVD take place mostly around the Armory yes, but it also has an avatar of Vecna literally wading through a massive stretch of city to get there, leaving a massive stretch of ruin in his wake, plus magical storms, hail, acid, etc raining down from the sky taking their toll on the city as well to a lesser extent elsewhere.
So except for the Manual of the Planes 3, you won't find any references to it because it hadn't happened yet.
The 3e MotP doesn't actually mention it, nor does the 3.x Planar Handbook which devoted a subchapter to the City of Doors. Like I said before, not a single 3.x source beyond the Vecna article has ever referenced it, so it has to open up the question of just how much of the events of DVD should be assumed to have happened explicitely as they did in the module (because some of the events very directly contradict what exists across all of the relevant 3.x sources).
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Outside of the fact that none of those are outer planes:
Ah yes, the outer planes/inner planes distinction.
They are all planes other than the main plane. They are all out there.They, their natives, and locations specific to them are still around. They're just no longer referred to as distinct planes.
If they aren't distinct planes, then they aren't still around. Indeed, check those rules. Ice "paraelementals" are from the Planes of Water or Air, not the Plane of Ice.
As for the Outer Planes specifically, since the setting cosmologies were separated, it is fair to say they have undergone significant, if subtle, changes as well. No more finding Forgotten Realms deities hobnobbing with the Birthright deities. The Modrons disappeared, the Formians moved, pit fiends and balors became overpowering while upper level archons, eladrins, and guardinals didn't get any power boost.
DVD said there would be changes. It didn't say everything would be completely altered so as to be indistinguishable.
And if some of those changes are changed over time, well that's even more change. :)
The late events of DVD take place mostly around the Armory yes, but it also has an avatar of Vecna literally wading through a massive stretch of city to get there, leaving a massive stretch of ruin in his wake, plus magical storms, hail, acid, etc raining down from the sky taking their toll on the city as well to a lesser extent elsewhere.
And that means Sigil must still be suffering to the point of it being mentioned everywhere? Given that DVD says everyone in Sigil goes off and has a party for a week after Vecna is defeated, apparently the locals don't notice it all that much either.
And checking MotP 3, I don't see any mention of Faction War or the destruction that caused either. In fact, it even says Sigil is run by the Factions, when it isn't, and when the Faction Prestige Classes in the Planar Handbook clearly has post-Faction War Factions.Apparently, not everything gets mentioned, no matter how devastating it might have been.
Oh, and there was a GH 1st ed to 2nd ed conversion event too; the Fate of Istus supermodule. Between all of them, I think all they did was prove that trying to justify the changes in an edition of the rules with a world-affecting adventure just really isn't a good idea. On that level, I'd just ignore those references in DVD, and let the rest of the adventure stand on its own. I think it manages on that score.
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If they aren't distinct planes, then they aren't still around. Indeed, check those rules. Ice "paraelementals" are from the Planes of Water or Air, not the Plane of Ice.
That's like saying that St Petersburg vanished from the face of the planet along with everything within when it had its name changed to Leningrad, and then mysteriously reappeared once the name switched back.
As I said before, the differences are entirely ones of semantics. Conceptually speaking, the quasi and para elemental planes were at the 'borders' of the cardinal elemental planes with one another, and with the positive and negative energy planes, but were deemed distinct planes of their own. The only difference now is that they're referred to as border regions, occupying the same spots as before, and not deemed full planes in their own right.
Everything is still there, only some terminology has changed.
As for the Outer Planes specifically, since the setting cosmologies were separated, it is fair to say they have undergone significant, if subtle, changes as well. No more finding Forgotten Realms deities hobnobbing with the Birthright deities.
Only FR has gone off on its own bizarre little path, at least in terms of intentional cosmology shifting. All the various worlds weren't automatically split off on their own, it just was no longer automatic that all campaign settings be included in the Great Wheel cosmology (Eberron being the poster child of this), but it wasn't a retroactive thing. DL is arguably a matter of licensing and use of property by a third party publisher and all.
All the other worlds/campaign settings weren't mentioned originally in 3e because of the hellish creative restrictions in place at the time that dissuaded overt referencing of anything deemed not 'core', thus only Greyhawk deities are mentioned by name in the Manual of the Planes. Of course reading between the lines, Loki is mentioned just not by name, Pluto's deific domain is mentioned, the Greek titans are mentioned, etc.
And those same restrictions appear to have since vanished to some degree, because in the Fiendish Codex I, we have overt mentions of the Chinese, Egyptian, FR, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, etc pantheons within the Great Wheel, not just 'core' stuff.
The Modrons disappeared, the Formians moved, pit fiends and balors became overpowering while upper level archons, eladrins, and guardinals didn't get any power boost.
The Modrons didn't vanish at all. They're there in the MotP, they just weren't given much exposure. But since then the reasons for that have been explained as the fallout from the events of 'Dead Gods'. The Formian move wasn't linked to DVD either, it was from the fallout of one of the Planescape modules as well.
All the other stuff is just game mechanics changes not linked to anything in-game. But, that said, I'll agree with you that it's typically a very poor idea to try to justify out of game crunch changes between editions with in game events in modules, etc.
I would guess that DVD fell afoul of the fact that it was written before a lot of the changes it was perhaps intended to usher in were developed firmly. So rather than seeming prophetic, it comes off as clunky and nonsensical in the things it said occured after the events of the module.
So we're still back to my original point: a good deal of the things claimed in the module don't reflect the way things have actually developed since then, and it opens the module up to serious questions as to what portions of its events and backgrounds (beyond the very basic setup) actually should be considered to have happened, or happened the way they were claimed to have happened, etc.
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That's like saying that St Petersburg vanished from the face of the planet along with everything within when it had its name changed to Leningrad, and then mysteriously reappeared once the name switched back.
No, it is like saying that if you moved everyone in St Petersburg to other cities while razing St Petersburg, it still exists.
Those planes do not exist. Border areas are not distinct planes the way they were in 2nd ed. To assert otherwise is to play with "semantics."Only FR has gone off on its own bizarre little path, at least in terms of intentional cosmology shifting. All the various worlds weren't automatically split off on their own, it just was no longer automatic that all campaign settings be included in the Great Wheel cosmology (Eberron being the poster child of this), but it wasn't a retroactive thing. DL is arguably a matter of licensing and use of property by a third party publisher and all.
So again, they were indeed changed.
Which is what I said happened.
Yah, after hitting Canonfire! and ENW, I hit wikipedia.
Whether you know it or not, I always bless you and the other wiki-hawks when doing Greyhawk research there. :)
much appreciated, though robbastard is by far the most passionate and productive in terms of getting the Greyhawk stuff up there. :)
not surprisingly, my stuff is more monster-lore than anything else. ;)
not surprisingly, my stuff is more monster-lore than anything else. ;)
I wonder why that would be ... ? ;)
Thanks again!
Fiendish Codex brought back the second edition cosmology?? *chokes on his beard*
My take on things was that all the setting cosmologies separated out--that each prime plane got its own outer planes that were the perview of their own gods. Some gods were forced to split their presence between multiple worlds, where others lost their influence in places. Take Dragonlance for example. It has planes that are nowhere else mentioned and its eternal progress of souls system runs completely counter to the way that souls seem to be made in every other setting. Spelljammer--don't even get me started there. Apparently post Vecna there's no phlogeston anymore! Spelljamming ships apparently still exist in some numbers in Greyhawk (Neogi mindspiders--and the freakin' Spelljammer itself floating mothballed in the Elemental Plane of Water there!) while the Spelljammer setting tore off and became its own setting with its own indiginous worlds (as per the Polyhedron article which I love).
So now with the Codex and Vecna's "return" (I never got the feeling until that article that he'd been missing in 3.0)they're hitting the reset button? It's 2nd edition all over again? That stuff drives me nuts. I wish the guys at Wizards and Paizo would just discuss this stuff openly and coherently. I really can't stand the whole "we just make products--it's up to you to make sense of them. It's your world!" attitude.
According to Rich Baker, there are still Spelljammers in Forgotten Realms as well.
So now with the Codex and Vecna's "return" (I never got the feeling until that article that he'd been missing in 3.0)they're hitting the reset button?
Grim can you clarify this part? I don't know what in the Core Beliefs article suggests that Vecna was missing in 3E.
As for when those three adventures took place, Vecna Lives! starts in 579 CY, and they should all be "finished" before the Greyhawk Wars start in 584 CY. That gives you 5 years to place them.
Actually, I believe Vecna Lives! takes place in 581 CY, while the Greyhawk Wars began in 582 CY.
Really, I'm far more interested in the Serpent than Vecna. If it was a plot device to make the adventures go, that's cool, but I really like the idea of the Serpent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mok'slyk
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Actually, I believe Vecna Lives! takes place in 581 CY, while the Greyhawk Wars began in 582 CY.
D'OH!
I only checked for the GH Wars in the Sheldomar, the only relevant part of the Flanaess after all, and Keoland only got involved in 584. ;)After all this time I forget why I picked 579 for Vecna Lives! I think I just found the first date in the City of Greyhawk boxed set and figured that's the year it was set so all the adventures should be set in the same year.
Ah well, that's what editors are for! :)