For crying out loud... Why is it when someone (only 2 people actually) posts thier dissastisfaction with the suggestive content on the latest cover of Dungeon people come out of the woodwork to shout them down. Now we have puritans trying to censor/castrate/neuter the mag? C'mon, not hardly. Talk about censorship...
The reaction has more to do with the fact that the discussion starts over again every time the magazine has a suggestive cover. Congrats, you're not as much of a minority as this thread might make it appear. Someone pops in to take that stance each time. If the regulars were a little hairtrigger in voicing their disagreement, that has something to do with it.
But that aside, let me apologize for my incendiary stance.You might not perceive your tone as patronizing or dismissive, but I do, and I was reacting to that. I should know better.
What you have declared unfit for children I see as one of the most beautiful facets of human existance. What you have dismissed as a cheap shot and a stunt I see as worthy content. I can't agree with the stances you're taking in this discussion, but for what it's worth, welcome to the boards, stick around, keep chatting. Get to know the folks here. The people you've accused of "coming out of the woodwork" are not the lurkers that phrase would imply, but some of this board's most active members.
So if I've offended you by calling you a puritan, I apologise for the offense. Please understand that even as you might feel persecuted by the suggestive advertising that pervades our society, others of us may feel persecuted by the prevailing myth that sex and sexuality are bad or unclean.
Me, at the time I'm usually picking up Dragon and Dungeon I'm also picking up Heavy Metal. So I don't worry about what people think about the cover. The current Summer issue is almost identical for misogyny with the new Dungeon cover.
But, anyways, every time I see a cover like that I'm reminded of a Scale/Prison Mail editor response that asked for girl gamers' feedback as to why there isn't gender parity within the hobby. And I chuckle.
I like the cover. I don't mind the cover. It's an inappropriate cover for inappropriate people. But I've seen hotter. There was this one way back in the day about Technomancers that had a totally leather-strapped steampunk chick on the cover.
I think that one was by far the hottest.
Oops, Dragon, may bad:
http://paizo.com/store/paizo/dragon/issues/1999/258
The hottest Dungeon would then be the one that "unveiled" the Teifling warrior chick.
I appreciate the feminist argument that there's a disparity in the cheesecake vs beefcake balance. As a male gamer who would like to know more women who can enjoy and appreciate the hobby, I'd like to see a more long term approach to marketing to women. It's probably true that cheesecake sells magazines now and beefcake doesn't. But if a nod in the direction of objectifying men equally with women will make girl gamers feel more welcome, then by all mean, let's grow that audience. Beefcake covers might not sell mags today, but they might start to create an audience that they'll sell to eventually.
Exactly. While covers with sexy images of women might sell better than "generic" cover, they also send a signal "go away, there is nothing for you to see here, you are not wanted here" to female (and gay male) gamers.
I like Dungeon and buy it, no matter what the cover is but I also notice the "go away" signals which the editors, the artists and the writers sometimes don't even realize they are putting there (a good example of this, from glbt angle, is description of seduction and such skills working only on "opposite sex". Innocent mistake if it is not part of your life but insulting if it is).While Cosmo and other such magazines have their women in little clothing in the covers, they are also portrayed in different styles than what is common in "men's magazines" and the latest cover of Dungeon definitely went for the sensibility of the latter.
As individual cover, I admit it to be rather good-looking, but I thought it a good idea to remind the editors that as a trend this is dangerous.
Oh, for the record, generally I am happily applauding sexy-but-equal imagery and dislike graphic violence.
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I think it is funny that women's and men's magazines tend to have the same covers. FHM, and other men's magazines feature scantily clad women......Cosmo, and other women's magazines feature scantily clad women. My interprutation is that men are not great to look at. Women are an art form, where men are utilitarian unless you start talking about Matthew McConahey(sp?) or some other well-toned man with dimples and eyes that you could swim in. There is not alot of men who are universally "hot", women tend to be extremely varied (and a bit picky)in their definition of Gorgeous where men tend to view women in a broader sense.
And, yes, I think Matthew McConahey (sp?) is a hottie. Gay?
Nah, I just appreciate a good-looking person regardless of gender.
FH (secure in his manhood)
I think it is funny that women's and men's magazines tend to have the same covers. FHM, and other men's magazines feature scantily clad women......Cosmo, and other women's magazines feature scantily clad women. My interprutation is that men are not great to look at. Women are an art form,
Humm! this is a truth told well. Damn you.. to all the sky is falling, cheesecake will scare off the women from gaming crowd! Look at a friggin magazine rack, beautiful women sell magazines, all magazines from: Cosmo to Sports Illustrated, to Good Housekeeping, to Maxim, and so on. Once you discount cooking magazines with food on the cover, every womens magazine has a woman on the cover, and that woman just happens to be very good looking. To those that say this is a cheep stunt to sell mags and paizo should be above that, well its paizos job to sell magazines, and the are entitled to do what ever it takes to sell them (within legal boundaries of course). If they didn't make maximum effort to sell as many dungeons as they could, the magazine would by get very expensive as a result of a limited print run. Number 137s cover is nicely done, and ties in well with the content, I see nothing to complain about, I think it's a better cover than some gory melee, or some demon that could ressurect the satanic panic of the 80s.
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I think it is funny that women's and men's magazines tend to have the same covers. FHM, and other men's magazines feature scantily clad women......Cosmo, and other women's magazines feature scantily clad women. My interprutation is that men are not great to look at. Women are an art form,Humm! this is a truth told well. Damn you.. to all the sky is falling, cheesecake will scare off the women from gaming crowd! Look at a friggin magazine rack, beautiful women sell magazines, all magazines from: Cosmo to Sports Illustrated, to Good Housekeeping, to Maxim, and so on. Once you discount cooking magazines with food on the cover, every womens magazine has a woman on the cover, and that woman just happens to be very good looking. To those that say this is a cheep stunt to sell mags and paizo should be above that, well its paizos job to sell magazines, and the are entitled to do what ever it takes to sell them (within legal boundaries of course). If they didn't make maximum effort to sell as many dungeons as they could, the magazine would by get very expensive as a result of a limited print run. Number 137s cover is nicely done, and ties in well with the content, I see nothing to complain about, I think it's a better cover than some gory melee, or some demon that could ressurect the satanic panic of the 80s.
Well put. Of course, i do love "some gory melee, or some demon that could ressurect the satanic panic of the 80s" on the cover as well.
Thoth-Amon
Chief Technical Officer
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Looking at our list of cover images for the next year, it looks like it'll be a while before our next scandalous cover comes out.
Well, he means *after* the upcoming crossover cover event featuring Brad & Angelina on Dragon vs. Jen on Dungeon.
And then there's the upcoming issue with RuPaul on the cover to commemorate the new "War of the Drag Queen" D&D Minis expansion.
But after those.... we're all clear.
I think it is funny that women's and men's magazines tend to have the same covers. FHM, and other men's magazines feature scantily clad women......Cosmo, and other women's magazines feature scantily clad women.
Even while many men's magazine and women's magazine covers both feature scantily clad women, they are nevertheless portrayed differently and claimint that they are exactly the same is a cop-out. Take a look at, say, body language. The Dungeon cover in question definitely goes to men's magazine category with a "babe" with "come and get me, big boy" look. With spiders thrown in to give an aura of exoticism and delicious danger...we are talking about a "bad girl" here.
Reading too much into it? Well, it's all there in the cover and I don't think I'm not the only one who reads it that way.
So thanks for Paizo to keep the status quo and D&D as white heterosexual boys' club. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother.
(that said, I repeat that as a picture the cover looks good)
Even while many men's magazine and women's magazine covers both feature scantily clad women, they are nevertheless portrayed differently and claimint that they are exactly the same is a cop-out. Take a look at, say, body language. The Dungeon cover in question definitely goes to men's magazine category with a "babe" with "come and get me, big boy" look. With spiders thrown in to give an aura of exoticism and delicious danger...we are talking about a "bad girl" here.
I think you are right on spot there. It is not only the subject of the picture (scantily clad women), but the kind or style of presentation of the subject that makes a difference to many viewers. Do you put the women(s body)in the spotlight, or do you focus the spotlight on the clothes she wears, or what she is doing (as in case of other Dungeon or Dragon covers showing fighting or spellcasting)? And body language and facial expression do make a difference. Of course, showing an amazon in the proverbial chain mail bikini fighting (like this one) isn´t much different from the cover discussed here.
So, the details make the difference. Just saying, what´s the fuss about it, it is all naked women, is a bit simple. The devil is in the details, as they say.I can see why it bothers some people.
Stefan
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I think it is funny that women's and men's magazines tend to have the same covers. FHM, and other men's magazines feature scantily clad women......Cosmo, and other women's magazines feature scantily clad women.
Even while many men's magazine and women's magazine covers both feature scantily clad women, they are nevertheless portrayed differently and claimint that they are exactly the same is a cop-out. Take a look at, say, body language. The Dungeon cover in question definitely goes to men's magazine category with a "babe" with "come and get me, big boy" look. With spiders thrown in to give an aura of exoticism and delicious danger...we are talking about a "bad girl" here.
Reading too much into it? Well, it's all there in the cover and I don't think I'm not the only one who reads it that way.
So thanks for Paizo to keep the status quo and D&D as white heterosexual boys' club. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother.
(that said, I repeat that as a picture the cover looks good)
Guess you don't look at many Womens magazines. All I see are women being forced to conform to an ideal that is almost unobtainable and sometimes unhealthy.
Tabloid throw around scandalous topics and slutty imagery to sell their rags. Who buys the vast majority: women.How to please a man.
What spot to touch on him.
10 things your man wants you to do to him.
Exercises to increase your love-making potential.
All article titles that have or do regularly grace the cover of womens magazines. If you feel like breaking a stereotype and "wonder why you even bother" maybe you should be working on championing a cause that really is a problem. One that forces women into feelings of inadequecy (sp?) and lowers self-esteem. Unhealthy eating habits, plastic surgery, dangerous diet pills and supplements, these all are waiting for the girls who are bombarded with these images.
The cover of Dungeon pales in comparison to the many different trashy covers out right now on womens mags. At least the woman on the cover isn't some unobtainable image (except for the task of rounding up 10,000 spiders). She wasn't "heiroin sheik" skinny, or had a perfect face. Sexy? Yeah. Degrading toward women? Not nearly as much as the "Women's" magazines. Women will buy gossipy, trashy, degrading magazines in droves. Some women (the more intelligent ones) see the marketing for what it is but most follow along and try to learn "What to wear to make him crazy!".
Men are shoe-horned into a stereotype too. And Blacks, Latinos, Chinese, etc. I go to the dentist and I either need to read womens mags or Hot Rod, Muscleman, or Time. I apparently drive a racecar with my rippling biceps and keep up on world affairs. Stereotyped.
I hate stereotypes but they aren't going anywhere. Art should be viewed with an eye towards beauty. Women = Beauty. Men = Utility.
Take a stand against the stereotypes. Paizo made an ARTISTIC cover that is also sexy, not a degrading, sexual cover.
I compare the look of the cover model's face as something akin to Mona Lisa's smile. It speaks with SO much expression. I am amazed that the artist could evoke such emotion in a face.
Sorry about the rambling rant.
FH (stereotypical man, I guess)
Reading too much into it? Well, it's all there in the cover and I don't think I'm not the only one who reads it that way.
So thanks for Paizo to keep the status quo and D&D as white heterosexual boys' club. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother.
As a happily married gay boi, I feel compelled to say that the only thing that bothered me about the cover were the spiders, as I'm a bit of an arachnophobe.
- Ashavan
Oh, trust me, I have issues with other types of stereotypes too and have opinions about female body image in popular media in general, especially unhealthy attitude passed to young girls who are still building up their self-image (best part about growing older is typical growth of confidence).
Stereotypes for men suck too...at least I know very few "stereotypical men" and don't particularly care to know more (I don't care about muscle cars and boats and find business to be extremely dreary subject of conversation).
But we are here on Dungeon boards and I actually happen to like Dungeon magazine so here I will be talking about Dungeon magazine.
Cover Stebehil linked above is an interesting comparison. Sure, chainmail bikini is a silly cliche but at least the woman in the cover was _doing_ something. She was a subject in her own cover, not just an object to be looked at.
Similarly it would be interesting to see more people of different ethnicities represented...now most humanoids we see tend to be very caucasian-looking, with some Japanese thrown in(who admittedly fall into samurai/ninja/geisha/combination stereotypes). How about a nice Nubian amazon in chainmail bikinis?
Stereotypes can be broken or at least weakened if we want them to be. Go ahead and act in a non-stereotypical way. It's surprisingly fun.
Oh, and for the record...men are beautiful. Trust me on this. In some of the later Dragon issues I have noticed a new artist...David Bischam or something? who draws mostly demons but at least they are yummy-looking demons :)
Reading too much into it? Well, it's all there in the cover and I don't think I'm not the only one who reads it that way.
So thanks for Paizo to keep the status quo and D&D as white heterosexual boys' club. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother.
As a happily married gay boi, I feel compelled to say that the only thing that bothered me about the cover were the spiders, as I'm a bit of an arachnophobe.
- Ashavan
Ashavan! Nice to hear from you again...hope your fawn pug pig has recovered from the pancreatitis. One of my dogs ran away during a thunderstorm and tore off his collar so we haven't found him yet (although his sister came back), so I'm kind of bummed right now). My wife was also revulsed by the spiders, as she's an "extreme" arachnophobe. She also hates scorpions. A few weeks ago one of my gaming friends opened his gaming bag to find a real life angry scorpion inside. After he killed it, I exclaimed that there would be no XP for killing a real life scorpion.
Cover Stebehil linked above is an interesting comparison. Sure, chainmail bikini is a silly cliche but at least the woman in the cover was _doing_ something. She was a subject in her own cover, not just an object to be looked at.
I guessed something like that. So, if women are not portrayed solely as objects of desire, but as playing an active part, this would be more acceptable to you ? And if they are presentend just nor wearing a silly chain mail bikini or something similar, but someting adequate, it would be even more acceptable ?
I liked the accompanying art with the Prince of Redhand, where the cleric and the tiefling fighter are shown wearing their evening robes (well, sort of). They are shown as being very feminine, but not in a cheap way.I liked the cover of that issue as well, but thats a matter of taste, I think. It is probably a bit on the side you don´t approve of.
Similarly it would be interesting to see more people of different ethnicities represented...now most humanoids we see tend to be very caucasian-looking, with some Japanese thrown in(who admittedly fall into samurai/ninja/geisha/combination stereotypes). How about a nice Nubian amazon in chainmail bikinis?
Most gamers probably fall into that caucasian subtype as well, so "like attracts like" or something like that.
I would like to see artwork representing the various human ethnicies on the game worlds from time to time, to have an example to show the players.Stefan
A few thoughts:
I see the spider girl as "doing something". Reclining against a wall full of spiders is declaring mastery and competence moreso than swinging an axe. She's displaying that she's conquered her fear, and knows that she's safe. It's an arcane mastery rather than an action mastery, but it shows her as an empowered, respectable figure all the same. The look in her eyes could just as easily be a dare to "think you're so tough? try coming over here for a rest with my pets, big boy" as it could be a come and get me look. To say that she's an object just because she's not swinging a chunk of steel is ... let's just say I vehemently disagree. A girl doesn't need a full BABs level progression to be empowered, and she doesn't need to be in the process of performing a Standard Action to prove it.
Brad & Angelina: I can see these two getting involved in Dragon and Dungeon, but I don't see it being sexy. You just know Angelina would be arguing for the orphaned orc children, and adopt one. Meanwhile, Brad would be judging a Green Dungeon Design competition. "See how this one makes use of traditional kobold architecture? The termite mounds on the surface are opened up at the bottom into the warren tunnels. In the summer, they add protein to their diet by eating the termites, and get benefit of the termite's surplus ventilation. Even in the hottest days of summer, these nests stay a cool 72 degrees, and so does this kobold warren. Then in the winter, they let the termite populations build up, and bank the heat down into the warrens. They dispose of all their wood trash this way, with no waste or landfill needs!"
Chainmail is pretty specifically european. From a quick google, I'm coming up with nubian armor being a lightweight collection of copper or bronze plates, sometimes decorated with ostrich feathers.
Just because many gamers are caucasian (not even very true: otaku isn't a native english word) doesn't mean gamerboys are only going to be attracted to caucasoid cover models. Like attracts like, but exotic also attracts.
I guessed something like that. So, if women are not portrayed solely as objects of desire, but as playing an active part, this would be more acceptable to you ? And if they are presentend just nor wearing a silly chain mail bikini or something similar, but someting adequate, it would be even more acceptable ? Stefan
Like this?
"What's wrong with being sexy" - Nigel Tufnel
"What's wrong with being sexy" - Nigel Tufnel
Yeah, Turbo Gorilla you tapped this thread right on the spine.
And then there's the upcoming issue with RuPaul on the cover to commemorate the new "War of the Drag Queen" D&D Minis expansion.
OMFGWTFBBQ!
That makes me so happy I can't even use real words.
As a subscriber I don't pay that much attention to a cover, in fact the only one that comes to mind in the last year is AoW cover that had the black dragon "spewing" on the Dungeon iconics. I found that very memorable for some reason.
If Dungeon can capture a few impulse buyers with their magazine covers than I say by all means put Angelina Jolie in a gold chain bikini and snap some pictures. I hear she likes blood and knives anyway.
It's the interior goodness that will create repeat buyers.
Alright, time for me to throw in my two cents. Not because I necessarily have anything to offer that James J. hasn't already said, but because everyone else is at lunch and it's either this or do real work.
So cheesecake on the cover. Yeah, it happens. I would also venture to say that I'm one of its stronger proponents in the office, as I've done quite a bit of number crunching on our sales figures and discovered that - guess what? - attractive women on the cover sells more magazines (not that we have anything against beefcake, it just doesn't make a noticable sales difference). And selling more magazines means that we have more money to produce what REALLY matters - the adventures themselves.
See, the thing about covers is that they're not for us. If our only aim was personal satisfaction, I'm betting that every cover would have a demon prince, dinosaur, or weird new monster. They're also not for the established readers or FLGS shoppers - not that we don't love you, but we know that you're savvy enough to understand what the mag is all about and read it for its content, making the cover less significant (statistically) in that market. Where the cover really makes a difference in sales is in the mass market - the impulse buys at the grocery store by people who may or may not even play D&D. Does having scantily-clad ladies on the cover bump sales there?
You had better believe it.
That said, Dungeon is not (with a few overarching thematic exceptions) going to run a cover that doesn't seem, to us, like the coolest possible tie-in to that issue's content. In this case, we thought that showing Arianne covered with spiders would be a fun, artistic piece (plus a spoof on "American Beauty") that could at once attract the mass-market eyes and give a creepy, intriguing NPC portrait to DMs running "Siege." The fact that James Ryman knocked this one out of the park (as he is wont to do with portraits - see issue 131) was a nice bonus.
Will we continue to put "attractive" people on the cover? Of course - "attractive" implies that it draws people's attention, and we're all about it. In the same way that a newspaper leads with the headline that will grab the most interest, or a movie poster puts the name of the biggest star first (regardless of their comparitive worth in the movie), we're going to do what we can to help sell copies. It's just business, and while I applaud magazines like Adbusters who make fighting the system their central goal, I feel like working within it allows us to do the most good for the greatest number of gamers. For the portrait covers, as with any cover, if you like it - awesome! If not - razor it off! Go ahead. We forgive you. And you can do so knowing full well that the next month you'll get a dragon, or a fight scene, or a dinosaur, or a demon lord... because the one thing we'd never want to do is get into a rut.
As for the magazines as white heterosexual male propaganda machine... hoo boy. If only you knew. : P While I won't speak to anyone's personal lives, all I have to say is that we're actively annoyed by the lack of diversity in D&D as well, and doing what we can to change things... I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say at this point, but keep an eye on Savage Tide in that respect. Good things are comin' down the pipe.
So there you have it - the covers may vaccilate between pretty people and awesome monsters, but they will always have the same goal - to help sell the magazine and, as a direct result, provide readers with more of what they want. Even if a given cover doesn't work for you, it's still working FOR you... if that makes sense.
Whew. I should probably ditch the soapbox go edit something. Take care of each other, folks.
-James S.
(P.S: And what about the beefy drow studmuffin on 136? He may be wearing more than Arianne, but that cover still says "beefcake" to me.)
"What's wrong with being sexy" - Nigel Tufnel
I think Dungeon goes to 11....
I didn't realize Dungeon was a white heterosexual propaganda machine! I thought my monthly copy of "American Rifleman" took care of that aspect of my life. (If they ever find out that I tend to vote more Democrat than Republican, will they kick me out of the NRA?)
Kidding aside--I'm really looking forward to the things James has hinted at......
but because everyone else is at lunch and it's either this or do real work.
LMAO - You said it James.
I had to think about this one for a little while. Here are my thoughts on it in no particular order.
- Great! Dungeon is here, now I have something to read in the waiting room at the hospital (my son was getting a surgery that day).
- Grrr! The mail-lady creased my Dungeon in half again... she does that every time!!!
- Hrmm... this will be embarrassing... with this cover and the word Dungeon people with think I am some sort of S&M freak.
- Great! The new issue of Discover is here. Not only does that give me more to read (my other fav mag) but I can simply hold this one over the cover of the other while I read.
I do have a son, but frankly I am not as worried about him. Compared to what TV shows have this was nothing.
Sean Mahoney
And then there's the upcoming issue with RuPaul on the cover to commemorate the new "War of the Drag Queen" D&D Minis expansion.
--- Pull Up.... Pull Up.... ---
This aircraft is WAY outta control! :)
Well, the excuse that covers with babes sell better has always sounded a bit lawful evil to me (it makes a profit, thus it is acceptable)...and after all, there must be some reasons why roleplaying is considered so much a "men's hobby", especially D&D (female gamers seem to be much more prominent in Vampire and LARP circles). So the bias should be considered.
Glad to hear the hints about Savage Tide, I will keep my eyes open.
Don't worry ...I won't be razoring the cover when I actually get to buy the issue ( OZ gets it's mags about a week after they get released in america )BUT spidergirl still graces an unimaginative and cliched cover.
It's American Beauty reference is too blatent a homage, it's models pose and attitude are too adolesent and it's "chainmail bikini" dressage is as tacky as anything Boris Vallejo ever put on canvas.
Want a great "chick" cover worthy of a poster or print - try Dragon 310. Now THEY'RE women worth impressing so they don't kick your A.
Well, the excuse that covers with babes sell better has always sounded a bit lawful evil to me (it makes a profit, thus it is acceptable)...and after all, there must be some reasons why roleplaying is considered so much a "men's hobby", especially D&D (female gamers seem to be much more prominent in Vampire and LARP circles). So the bias should be considered.
Glad to hear the hints about Savage Tide, I will keep my eyes open.
Personally, I think it's the rules rather than the covers that keeps D&D a more male oriented game than Vampire or a LARP. D&D has always had its roots in military and strategic games (sort of like Warhammer Fantasy) and the rules in 3.5 favor that approach more than they did in the less mini-intensive middle-versions of D&D (which was only marketed to boys). D&D has also been less interested (in my opinion) with character development (i.e. Look this room has 54 trolls and box of treasure in it.) And the rules never really explained how to play a wizard, what biases you might have, or what you might wear beyond a robe etc.... While more "modern" (i.e. 1990's) games taught you how to be tragically hip, made it seem cool and (let's not forget) sexy, and gave you rules to govern intangables like Humanity, Angst, and Banality, rather than Hit Points (a hold over form stratigic gaming). Also "modern" games didn't really need minis, were more free-flowing in most cases and therefore less stigmatized by the old D&D stereotype (a stereo reinforced by its early boys-only marketing). You could still make a "well-rounded" game out of D&D, but the game books themselves rarely helped you. And while there are certainly women who like the 54-trolls-in-a-cave type D&D I'm willing to bet more would like to play a forlorn lycanthope, or gothic ghost instead.
GGG
PS when are we going to get a proper witch class in this game!?!
PS when are we going to get a proper witch class in this game!?!
What aspect of witchery is it that you find missing from the wizard and sorcerer classes?
I would argue GGG's point one step further (either that or I'm about to go off on a serious tangent) Paizo & WOTC need to figure out the best way to spread their product to as many people as possible. Whether it be by statistical analysis of buying patterns of various demographics, qualitatively surveying FLGS owners or through their own experiences, the determination has been made, and I don't think ANYONE will argue this (which is probably baiting someone to do just that) that the acquisition cost of new players is lower for hetero white boy males.
If Paizo & WotC have $50 to spend on wooing customers, they are going to spend that money as efficiently as possible. If it costs $5 in marketing etc to woo a male vs $15 for a female, they're going to spend it on the males. If that means using the art budget to throw in a smidge of tantalization (and I'm sorry, I thought the cover rocked) so be it. Anything that keeps my hobby and the companies that support it above water I'm willing to go with.
Does this limit the diversity/accessability to the hobby? somewhat. The sheer breadth of opinions and people chiming in here though proves that there is some spill over into other demographics than the white boy male. However, in a time when FLGSs are a disappearing luxury and gaming companies are all feeling a financial crunch, I think we're better off being ambassadors of the hobby and recruiting new players grass roots style than asking the makers of the game to do it for us. While the argument will come that covers like this hinder that effort, look at it like this- Dungeon is a DMs magazine. If the DM thinks the cover of one of their source materials will put off potential new players, remove the coverw or photocopy the adventure. Spider Eaters is an AWESOME adventure. I think it would be a great one for enticing new players (especially women given the more compelling morality issues/Role playing opportunities involved). Don't blow the oppotunity to use the adventure to recruit new players just because of the artwork.
Finally, when people are complaining about reading their magazines in public- why is that? I have no qualms with doing so. I work in management in a company that spans the globe and has over 5000 employees. Are you ashamed of the magazine's cover, or is the magazine's cover just the icing on an already questionable looking cake? When I'm reading my magazines in public it's usualyl at the airport or ona plane. I'm wearing a suit and tie and reading dungeon. At this point While I may get judged as a weirdo for reading the magazine because of its cover, there's a pretty good chance someone will see me and say "That guy looks like a pretty down to earhth/moderately successful person and he's reading a D&D magazine. Maybe it's not what I thought it was and is worth checking out."
Just my thoughts.
It's American Beauty reference is too blatent a homage, it's models pose and attitude are too adolesent and it's "chainmail bikini" dressage is as tacky as anything Boris Vallejo ever put on canvas.Want a great "chick" cover worthy of a poster or print - try Dragon 310. Now THEY'RE women worth impressing so they don't kick your A.
I disagree after looking at the cover of Dragon 310. The somewhat vacant expression on the mid-drifty wizette marks her and her pants-less swordarm as total cheesecake. Am I right guys and gals? In fact I think they might be every male orc's dream. "Slay me babies!"
Now Alhandra on the cover of Dragon 309 , in full plate, holding the head of her fallen githyanki foe more than says empowered to me! While the halfling spy on
the cover of Dragon 316, the druid on the cover of Dragon 292, and the spellcaster on the cover of Dragon 307 all look engaging, and puposeful as well as sexy.
But fair is fair -so here: the cover of Dragon 301, and the cover of Dragon 294 .
And on a second related point; and this is in no way addressed at you bal3000, but rather the notion that you expressed, a notion so prevalent it could have been expressed by anyone including myself: Why if we are all so enlightened, is it my (a man's) responsibility to impress the ladies on the cover of 310 (or women in general) when they should be trying to impress me about half the time? Or are women just objects that stand there and need to be "won" by men, like dolls in a carnival? It's always bugged me and is probably at the root of the reason I'm still single. Guess I'll have to oil up and get myself on the cover of Dragon.
GGG
PS when are we going to get a proper witch class in this game!?!What aspect of witchery is it that you find missing from the wizard and sorcerer classes?
The religious one.
If you have never read it, but can still get your hands on it check out the article in scandalously and diabolically clad Dragon 114, and you'll see what I mean. I'm no wicca and the article doesn't really swing that way either, but is incredibly (Best of Dragon Compendium Vol 2) good.
GGG
Women watch auto racing in droves now. Women play video games. I tells ya, issa 'sploitable market.
Whoda thunk women would like auto racing?
I think, frankly, that writing them off as a viable market in an historically male venue is a HEEYUGE mistake.
Yep.
Women watch auto racing in droves now. Women play video games. I tells ya, issa 'sploitable market.
Whoda thunk women would like auto racing?
I think, frankly, that writing them off as a viable market in an historically male venue is a HEEYUGE mistake.
They do indeed watch Auto racing and play video games. Two leisure activities that both generate money faster than they can count it. They have the luxury of being able to pursue the harder to reazch market segments.
And I don' think that Paizo or WotC are advocating completely ignoring other demographic segments. I do think that in an effort to survive, they'd be foolish to not focus on capturing the low hanging fruit...
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PS when are we going to get a proper witch class in this game!?!What aspect of witchery is it that you find missing from the wizard and sorcerer classes?The religious one.
If you have never read it, but can still get your hands on it check out the article in scandalously and diabolically clad Dragon 114, and you'll see what I mean.
GGG
I have a pretty good book from 3e. with the witch class. I forget who did it; issat the house, not the coal mine.
I have a pretty good book from 3e. with the witch class. I forget who did it; issat the house, not the coal mine.
If it's the one I'm thinking of (and own as well) it's still not issue 114 brilliant.
GGG
So? The vote! Is [url=http://paizo.com/image/product/magazine_issue/dragon/310/cover_500.jpg]Dragon 310[url] cheesecake or empowered?
I say it's "cheesier" (in the cheesecake-sense of the picture not in the quality of the painting itself -I've always been an Elmore fan) than spider wench (once again no dis on the artist's work) on Dungeon 137 even if they do have more clothes on.
GGG
God that's a lot of parentheticals... Sorry.
So? The vote! Is [url=http://paizo.com/image/product/magazine_issue/dragon/310/cover_500.jpg]Dragon 310[url] cheesecake or empowered?
Well, part of the core issue here is that we're reading things into ALL of these pictures. Does wearing armor and holding a sword make you empowered, or just another bloke holding props? Is the look on the wizard's face vacant or inquisitive? We see in the pictures what we want and expect to see.
PS when are we going to get a proper witch class in this game!?!What aspect of witchery is it that you find missing from the wizard and sorcerer classes?The religious one.
If you have never read it, but can still get your hands on it check out the article in scandalously and diabolically clad Dragon 114, and you'll see what I mean. I'm no wicca and the article doesn't really swing that way either, but is incredibly (Best of Dragon Compendium Vol 2) good.
GGG
I'll agree with you on that GGG. That article has always been one of my favorites. As for covers, the adonis on the chariot was always a favorite of mine, beefcake doesn't get on the covers often enough. *sigh*
- Ashavan
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Ha Ha! Back at my Sanctum Sanctorium...
The Darth Vader boss came to my job today, couldn't do no afternoon postings...
It's called the Way of the Witch by Citizen Games. It's by Janet Pack, Jean Rabe, Megan C Robertson, and Christina Stiles.
The Good guy witches can't put the whack on nobody unless they're evil outsiders or something, because they can't break their rede.
And they have candle magic and rituals and stuff.
It's kinda funny to read the responses of the people who are up in arms (or even just slightly annoyed) by this cover. Dungeon Magazine is, primarily, a business. A business's objective is, above all else, to make money; this is what differentiates it from a fanzine with a print run of 15 off of some basement-located HP printer. If, for some strange reason, it was discovered that having peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on covers sold more mags, you can bet we'd see a lot more drow breaking out +1 adamantine lunchboxes.
However, from what I can tell, tied for first in the minds of our friendly neighborhood editors is giving us really quality adventures/campaign seeds, so I think we can see clear to keeping the complaining about Random New Cover #73 to a minimum, yes?
So? The vote! Is [url=http://paizo.com/image/product/magazine_issue/dragon/310/cover_500.jpg]Dragon 310[url] cheesecake or empowered?Well, part of the core issue here is that we're reading things into ALL of these pictures. Does wearing armor and holding a sword make you empowered, or just another bloke holding props? Is the look on the wizard's face vacant or inquisitive? We see in the pictures what we want and expect to see.
Fair enough but how about some pants for the other girl?
"All I want is some pants!" - Brainiac (Cartoon Network TV ad)
-GGG
2 of the ladies I game with bought this issue of Dungeon. One of them bought Dungeon for the first time. Maybe they'll start DMing soon and I can take a break.
I found the women in Dragon 310 a bit too vacant too, some of the other covers suggested by GGG are much more to my taste (including the nice beefcakes).
Taking a quick look at past issues of Dungeon, I rather liked the cover of Dungeon 126. And Dungeon 121.
It's kinda funny to read the responses of the people who are up in arms (or even just slightly annoyed) by this cover. Dungeon Magazine is, primarily, a business. A business's objective is, above all else, to make money; this is what differentiates it from a fanzine with a print run of 15 off of some basement-located HP printer.
Absolutely right. A business has to make a profit, or it won´t a business for long. But the products should appeal to the broadest range of potential customers possible within its market niche. If the magazine covers lead potential customers to buy it, fine. But if the covers lead to a significant group of potential customers not buying it, then that could result in a problem and hurt your business. So, even if you want to reduce the problem to sales numbers, you should strive for the magazine to appeal to the broadest range of customers, especially those buying it at newsstands.
Subscribers probably won´t cancel their subs due to one cheesy cover.So, to the publishers: Try to make cover art appealing to the broadest rage of customers, without offending anyone. Thats probably as easy as squaring the circle...
However, from what I can tell, tied for first in the minds of our friendly neighborhood editors is giving us really quality adventures/campaign seeds, so I think we can see clear to keeping the complaining about Random New Cover #73 to a minimum, yes?
Well, some people on these boards were mildly offended by the latest cover, and I don´t think its fair to tell them: "Cheesy covers raise the sales, and I don´t care about your concerns as long as the publishers do a brisk business and I get my stuff."
Our hobby needs the broadest possible base to thrive, and I think that female gamers make the game much more enjoyable, so there nothing to gain and much to lose in offending them in the long run. Now, one cheesy cover won´t ruin our hobby, as has been proven in the past, but if women are led to believe that it is a boys hobby and don´t participate as a consequence, our hobby loses potential supporters.
All he above is just my opinion, of course.
Stefan
Well, some people on these boards were mildly offended by the latest cover, and I don´t think its fair to tell them: "Cheesy covers raise the sales, and I don´t care about your concerns as long as the publishers do a brisk business and I get my stuff."
Our hobby needs the broadest possible base to thrive, and I think that female gamers make the game much more enjoyable, so there nothing to gain and much to lose in offending them in the long run. Now, one cheesy cover won´t ruin our hobby, as has been proven in the past, but if women are led to believe that it is a boys hobby and don´t participate as a consequence, our hobby loses potential supporters.
Conceded, although I don't think I made my point quite as clear as I wanted to. It's a little more like "Dungeon Magazine likes money. Marketing ploys such as scantily clad women make money. Therefore Dungeon mag tends to use these ploys. However, the quality of the content within the mag remains high, so the negative effect of a mildly scandalous cover is lessened somewhat IMO."
This is usually the part of the movie where I spout off a lot of rhetoric, best summarized as "don't judge a book by its cover."
After all, the new issue of Dragon has a woman in battle armor with a sword on the cover, and they're probably going to sit next to each other on the rack, so there are still non-offensive options for potential gamers of all the major genders. All is not yet lost. ;-D