I've toyed with gunpowder in D&D many times before and it's never worked out. My players just don't like the flavor. I just saw that gunpowder and rifles are going to be part of the Ptolus release. We had planned to buy Ptolus for one of our gaming group members to run, but that's been turned into an unequivocal "no" by all of us. We'll just get an alternate setting for him, it's not like there isn't enough stuff out there to try.
Is anyone else toying with the idea of adding gunpowder into the mix? I'm wondering if the whole "golden age of piracy" thing doesn't just cry out for cannons and muskets.
Although I have always disliked the idea of firearms in D&D I think this would be a really good touch for the STAP. Any word from the crew? :)
Great idea! But if you're setting is Greyhawk you're going to have a bit of trouble unless you are the Quasi-deity Murlynd.
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I've toyed with gunpowder in D&D many times before and it's never worked out. My players just don't like the flavor. I just saw that gunpowder and rifles are going to be part of the Ptolus release. We had planned to buy Ptolus for one of our gaming group members to run, but that's been turned into an unequivocal "no" by all of us. We'll just get an alternate setting for him, it's not like there isn't enough stuff out there to try.
Guns are a big turn-off for me, too. Here is an excerpt from the Ptolus web site:
Guns in standard d20? Yes. See, here's the catch that makes it d20-ish. Technology, like the Empire that was built upon it, is on the decline. Firearms aren't produced much anymore -- they're relics to find on an adventure. They're another kind of interesting treasure to obtain, with a very specific kind of flavor for those who want it (and easy guidelines to get rid of them, for those who don't want firearms in the setting at all). (emphasis mine)
found here. It's like almost every other source book I buy, I use what I want to and laugh at the rest.
It's easy to get rid of them, but the DM that is going to use Ptolus has virtually no time for prep work and when we saw that the Ptolus riflemen are featured in the first run of miniatures, we all suspected that firearms were not going to be that small of a role. First impression = negative = $120 price tag = let's try something else instead.
It has to do with our very negative 25 year history of trying firearms in D&D at various points and it has always sucked, so that explains our gaming group's immediate negative reaction. My wife flat out said she won't play D&D if there's guns involved and I don't blame her.
Explosives? Yes. Guns? ...Not so much. I would like to see it as an option, though, from the "how are they going to pull this off" standpoint.
I don't much like guns in D&D either--I guess I'm kind of a medieval fantasy purist. That said, if there were a place I'd consider putting in guns it would be in a naval campaign--there's something special about going broadside to broadside, and the usual catapult additions to our fantasy ships as replacement artillery are kind of bogus--it's just too hard to aim one accurately at a moving target, especially on a rolling ship that is also moving. Realistically, the only place a catapult might be tactically useful is in a coastal fort, where you have a stable firing platform and your target has to stay in the harbor channel so you can anticipate his movement.
However, I think the two funnest aspects of D&D combat are magic and melee--maneuvering the ship to try to rake your enemy with cannonfire is fun in a wargame (Wooden Ships & Iron Men was one of my favorites), but it's kind of dull in D&D unless every PC commands his own ship. It's much better to have the two ships have to close quickly and grapple if they really want to duke it out. I actually like Stormwrack's "narrative combat system" for this reason--it minimizes the time spent on maneuvering and resolves whether the ships grapple or one escapes relatively quickly, without elaborating too much on the tactical maneuvering that is probably pretty boring for the melee-types who are just waiting to leap over the rail with swords drawn, or even for the archers and ranged magical attackers who just want to get in range and start shooting. Of course, if you want to add some other tactical factors in, such as shallow water or an attempt to maneuver into or out of a harbor, the more elaborate "vehicular combat system" from the arms and equipment guide may be necessary to do it justice.
Of course, magic can substitute for cannon and musket fire, and fireballs and fly spells drastically alter traditional naval tactics, whether the age of gunpowder has arrived in your campaign or not. This means the bad guys almost certainly need a battle mage of some sort to make ship-to-ship combat a challenge for a party that has access to more than one or two fireball or fly spells, or anything else that has the ability to drastically alter the tactical situation. Of course if the goal is to capture the enemy ship rather than burning it to the waterline, the party probably won't want to use fireballs. The fact that 5th and 6th level characters have some access to such magic means that in most D&D worlds, your resources are better spent paying a 5th level wizard and equipping him with a wand of fireball than in buying and crewing a deck full of cannons. 10-20 cannon for a modest-sized sloop of war means 30-80 gunners to pay, feed, and find berthing for on the ship, plus anywhere from 10-40 tons of cargo you can't carry due to the weight of cannon and shot, plus you're sitting on a powder magazine--if the enemy mage casts fly and invisibility on someone, he can drop an alchemist's fire in the hold and blow your ship sky high.
In short, in a world with a "medium" level of magic, who needs gunpowder?
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Explosives? Yes. Guns? ...Not so much. I would like to see it as an option, though, from the "how are they going to pull this off" standpoint.
Since Chaositech is included on the Ptolus CD, my guess would be that their guns are the same as described on their technology web enhancement PDF found here. I'm not advocating it (becuase I don't like it either) but here is the info for the fatally curious...
Creative Director
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Of the three adventrue paths we've done so far, guns would probably fit the best into Savage Tide.
That said, there won't be any cannons or pistols in the adventure, so if you want them in there you'll have to tackle that yourself. (Although the thought of a gorristro demon with a cannon is amusing...)
From what I've seen of Ptolus (having read the campaign logs on Monte Cook's websight the whole thing is based off of) I'd say switching out guns for crossbows and bows would take no time at all. I honestly don't remember many references to firearms in the campaign logs beyond reading the actual parties stats and seeing that one or two of them got exotic weapon profs in firearms. Until then I didn't even know there were firearms in Ptolus.
Either way, I don't see a problem using firearms in D&D, as I've seen people try to make gun-based concepts sense I started playing. From dual wand wielding gunfighters, to armored caravans with a turret mounted crossbow, I truely don't see as how it becomes a problem. Fluff wise I can see issues, as in platemail and flint locks being arround at the same time, but honestly, with the effects of magic I think plate mail would have gone out long ago.
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Explosives? Yes. Guns? ...Not so much. I would like to see it as an option, though, from the "how are they going to pull this off" standpoint.Since Chaositech is included on the Ptolus CD, my guess would be that their guns are the same as described on their technology web enhancement PDF found here. I'm not advocating it (becuase I don't like it either) but here is the info for the fatally curious...
I was also kinda thinking about chaositech; the thread about, "sounds like reavers" got me going in that direction.
Maybe a boatload of cannibal pirates, with a chaositech-fueled drive system, who are slowly being mutated by the chaos from the engine, and don't care because they're crazy anyway, like the Reavers from Serenity not radiation shielding their drive engines/whatnot.Maybe I'm leaning against the whole thing, though.
Great idea! But if you're setting is Greyhawk you're going to have a bit of trouble unless you are the Quasi-deity Murlynd.
How about a group of adventurers blessed by Murlynd himself, led by a cleric? :)
Jack
GH fanboy
In my world, the gnomes spend all their time creating really big explosives using a mix of arcane and technology. So far, the managed to get up a airship that flies via enchanted parts and magic. There is also a one of a kind "death ray" thats like a laser. It has a 10 ft radius for 20d6 force energy and takes 2 hours to recharge. It was made by a mad gnome genius exiled to Archon (spl) on the layer of the junk cubes. He was fortunatly killed...
I would be tempted my Savage Tides to add guns into the game. The long load times (3 rounds at least) and good but not scalable damage would mean they be early-mid level weapons at best.
Of the three adventrue paths we've done so far, guns would probably fit the best into Savage Tide.
That said, there won't be any cannons or pistols in the adventure, so if you want them in there you'll have to tackle that yourself. (Although the thought of a gorristro demon with a cannon is amusing...)
I do have to say that i am glad guns are not going be in there by default. Far easier, imo, to add things than take them away.
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An enormous goristo, with a huge howdah and shoulder platforms bristling with cannon batteries and cambion artillerits strides towards your ship through the shallow waters of the Brine Flats, leaving vast V shaped wakes behind it. All it's guns blaze at once, hurling demonically infused chainshot at your ship. Your vessel creaks in protest as in an explosion of splinters and smoke your mainmast groans like the tortured souls of the Abyss and topples towards the main deck...
Nice image James but I too dislike firearms in D&D, paladins of Myrlund being an exception or the Lantanese in FR.
An enormous goristo, with a huge howdah and shoulder platforms bristling with cannon batteries and cambion artillerits ...
Can you spell B A T T L E T E C H ? :-)
I don´t think that I would want guns in my D&D game. The real world advantages to bows and crossbows don´t translate well into the game, and magic is more powerful than any medieval or renaissance gun could ever hope to be in the game context - magic substituting the need for scientific research here.
That said, one AD&D game I´m playing in (on Mystara - Norwold) has a mercenary unit of quasi-japanese soldiers (hailing from one of the islands south of the Isle of Dawn, IIRC) has arquebuses as their main ranged weapon. But they are an exotic element anyway, so this makes them only more exotic.
Stefan
I have firearms IMC. It is set in Freeport, which has been transplanted into Mystara. The party recently visited the Isle of Dread too, so the Savage Tide should fit neatly into all of this. For this campaign, I went specifically for a Swashbuckling feel. And I felt we needed firearms to accomplish that. I like how the PCs draw two guns each, fire both, before dropping them, drawing his cutlass and dagger and dashing into melee! :D
Håvard
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Personally, I like the flavor guns provide, just so long as they aren't commonplace. For instance, IMC, a couple clans of dwarves know how to produce (and use) firearms. They remain an oddity amongst all other populations and are secretive about their technology. Still, seeing someone carrying and and using one evokes curiosity if not a little fear, but not a raging desire to possess one for oneself. (In part, I would attribute this to the game mechanics in the DMG, i.e., a flintlock rifle hardly imbalances the game. So, likely, we're talking flavor over anything.
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Honestly, I'm tired of the whole guns don't fit in D&D arguement.
For every gunes don't work that way arguement, so also goes the bows and crossbow arguement.
For all the stuff you can create with alchemy, you should be able to create something like gunpowder, and since most of the known D&D worlds used by WOTC have some people that can create clockworks, so between that and alchemy pehaps there are wheelocks that have much more much more dependable than normal "earth" wheelocks.
I have seen flintlocks that date back to the early reniassance that have multple chambers to a gun maybe fired quickly so that reloads between shots are not as required as much. There are magical weapon enhancements for crossbow that could be added to guns as well.
In my game my player's characters will be trained to have thier loads premessured into a sort of speedload. It might be the sort of speedload that I use now when performing in pirate shows were the gunpowder is set in rolling paper so it can be easily loaded. I have even considered an alchemical replacement that is more like clay or guncotton and is already attached to the "ball" and the "flint" is created alchemicly so it doesn't require powder in the pan.
But all this just academic. The transparency form guns to crossbows should be just about the same. This is a game we are talking about after all. The biggest threat I feel that most DMs have is what happens if players get ahold of a big barrel of black powder, and to that I say "don't let them." Just like anything else in the game, anything that would unbalance the game should be avoided.
I love my Greyhawk, I'm just tired of this part and I'm sure that anyone else would say "Run your world the way you want", so I am.
I don't think anyone here is saying anyone else is a bad DM if they allow guns. I think we were just stating our personal preferences and reasons for them.
If D&D is supposed to be medieval fantasy, guns are certainly possible in a medieval setting. Gunpowder was invented in China sometime around the year 1000, maybe earlier, and gunpowder weapons came into widespread use there during the early 12th century. The gun as we know it (a tube that uses gunpowder to expel a lead ball or bullet at high velocity) was invented in the late 13th century and had found its way to Europe within 50 years or so. So guns arrived on the European battlefield at about the same time that full plate armor did--and I haven't heard too many calls to eliminate that staple of medieval fantasy.
However, since the game is more based on the literary genre of medieval fantasy than on the historical medieval world, and since the mainstream of that genre does not feature gunpowder weapons, most purists eschew gunpowder. But it's fantasy, so anything's possible, and there are certainly F/SF authors who mix gunpowder weapons and sorcery.
In my homebrew world, which has a somewhat late medieval/renaissance feel to it in some ways, I still don't have gunpowder or the printing press, which are the two technologies (along with, arguably, the compass) that ultimately (over the course of five centuries or so) brought on the modern world. And steam engines are definitely out. But that's a personal preference only, and I can certainly understand allowing gunpowder weapons in a swashbuckling campaign. Keep in mind, though, that gunpowder makes castles less useful, makes naval battles really deadly (read John Kegan's account of Trafalgar in "The Price of Admiralty"), and tends to favor larger, centralized states with commoner armies over feudal systems.
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I don't think anyone here is saying anyone else is a bad DM if they allow guns. I think we were just stating our personal preferences and reasons for them.
If D&D is supposed to be medieval fantasy, guns are certainly possible in a medieval setting. Gunpowder was invented in China sometime around the year 1000, maybe earlier, and gunpowder weapons came into widespread use there during the early 12th century. The gun as we know it (a tube that uses gunpowder to expel a lead ball or bullet at high velocity) was invented in the late 13th century and had found its way to Europe within 50 years or so. So guns arrived on the European battlefield at about the same time that full plate armor did--and I haven't heard too many calls to eliminate that staple of medieval fantasy.
However, since the game is more based on the literary genre of medieval fantasy than on the historical medieval world, and since the mainstream of that genre does not feature gunpowder weapons, most purists eschew gunpowder. But it's fantasy, so anything's possible, and there are certainly F/SF authors who mix gunpowder weapons and sorcery.
In my homebrew world, which has a somewhat late medieval/renaissance feel to it in some ways, I still don't have gunpowder or the printing press, which are the two technologies (along with, arguably, the compass) that ultimately (over the course of five centuries or so) brought on the modern world. And steam engines are definitely out. But that's a personal preference only, and I can certainly understand allowing gunpowder weapons in a swashbuckling campaign. Keep in mind, though, that gunpowder makes castles less useful, makes naval battles really deadly (read John Kegan's account of Trafalgar in "The Price of Admiralty"), and tends to favor larger, centralized states with commoner armies over feudal systems.
The problem of using "Reniassance" and "Medieval" is that there is no strong line between them. The lag from when one country moved from one time period to the next is signifigant. Italy's move into the reniassance was much faster than England's and Eastern Europe's countrys much slower than that. It's just not a neat history and at best you can say that gunpowder shows up in some people's Medieval period while it appears in other's Reniassance.
And the gaps from from our reality to D&D reality is huge. When it come right down to it, any D&D magic makes castles just as less useful if not more. After all, what what would you fear more; A cannon unit or a earthquake spell? Flight also changed warfare just as much if not more than gunpowder and yet we have that concept locked in to most D&D games. Just ask General Billy Mitchell.
So much of what goes into D&D magic is basicly a replacement for technology and I honestly think that the comparisons to earth history that just don't really apply anymore using the standard default D&D magic level.
And when I think of fantasy books, I tend to think of the "first medieval fantasy" as being "A Connecticut Yankee in King Aurthor's Court". Gunpowder didn't really take the magic out of that story.
This is an old argument, and one that I've been on both sides of. Still, this is an AP that would heavily lean towards gun use, and since I plan to run it in the Spelljammer Campaign Setting(whether it's Pyrespace or Greyspace), guns will appear, but they will certainly be in the background. The PCs are the heroes, not their weapons.
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I, for myself, don't like guns in classic fantasy settings like Greyhawk or FR. It just doesn't fit in there for me. Would it be necessary to invent guns with all the magic around?On the other hand, if i'd be invited to a Greyhawk-campaign and the DM announces the inclusion of guns, i would still take part.
I really like guns, canons etc. in low-magic steampunk-settings like the IK. In there it makes perfect sense to me and it blends in well with classic medieval weapons like crossbows and similar stuff.
I have firearms IMC. It is set in Freeport, which has been transplanted into Mystara. The party recently visited the Isle of Dread too, so the Savage Tide should fit neatly into all of this. For this campaign, I went specifically for a Swashbuckling feel. And I felt we needed firearms to accomplish that. I like how the PCs draw two guns each, fire both, before dropping them, drawing his cutlass and dagger and dashing into melee! :D
Håvard
Oh yeah- this is what I'm talking about! Especially since for my campaign, reloading a gun is going to be a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, there is going to be a lot of exchange of fire followed by fanatic charges. According to my Ravenloft Campaign Setting, a pistol does 1d10 damage and a rifle/musket does 1d12, but that was under 3.0 rules- how did it change(if at all) for 3.5?
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Honestly, I'm tired of the whole guns don't fit in D&D arguement.
For every gunes don't work that way arguement, so also goes the bows and crossbow arguement.
For all the stuff you can create with alchemy, you should be able to create something like gunpowder, and since most of the known D&D worlds used by WOTC have some people that can create clockworks, so between that and alchemy pehaps there are wheelocks that have much more much more dependable than normal "earth" wheelocks.
I have seen flintlocks that date back to the early reniassance that have multple chambers to a gun maybe fired quickly so that reloads between shots are not as required as much. There are magical weapon enhancements for crossbow that could be added to guns as well.
In my game my player's characters will be trained to have thier loads premessured into a sort of speedload. It might be the sort of speedload that I use now when performing in pirate shows were the gunpowder is set in rolling paper so it can be easily loaded. I have even considered an alchemical replacement that is more like clay or guncotton and is already attached to the "ball" and the "flint" is created alchemicly so it doesn't require powder in the pan.
But all this just academic. The transparency form guns to crossbows should be just about the same. This is a game we are talking about after all. The biggest threat I feel that most DMs have is what happens if players get ahold of a big barrel of black powder, and to that I say "don't let them." Just like anything else in the game, anything that would unbalance the game should be avoided.
I love my Greyhawk, I'm just tired of this part and I'm sure that anyone else would say "Run your world the way you want", so I am.
I'll have to agree with Herald when he made the point, 'I'm tired of the whole guns don't fit in D&D,'argument.
I, personally, dont care for guns in my campaigns but wouldnt be against it if the whole party wanted to try it out. After all, i am used to some of the old fashioned guns in play when it comes to WARHAMMER RPG. I have also dealt with lazer guns when it came to my characters 'Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.' That being said, i would want old flintlock and muskets to be available. As one of the other paizo members said, 'The long load times (3 rounds at least)' wouldnt off-set the balance either. Of course, this wouldnt result in firefights either. By the time one reloaded, the majority of conflicts would have been ended in either victory or death. But they do have their benefits.
All this together would make them 'exotic' and unique with a dash of flavor yet, wouldnt imbalance the game or be worthwhile enough for player characters to go out of their way to obtain one. Therefore, only those few who had a penchant for said guns, not unlike those characters that perfer rapiers or throwing stars, would actively seek out such weapons.
Caveat: i would allow full plate the capability to...easily...reflect musket balls upon a save, to encourage more of the fighter types to aquire said armor. Seems, full plate just isnt too popular anymore with player characters. I already, after all, give some allowances in my campaigns for said armor resulting in at least one player character,in a party of 6-9, aquiring such armor.
Well, i have rambled enough. What do you all think?
Thoth-Amon
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I was kind of thinking about doing armor for hi-velocity and low velocity kinetic energy--like the "stopping power" rating from Cyberpunk. And the drow have spider web armor with a "thread count" better than kevlar...this could be used as hi-velocity padding under field plate; it doesn't do much good against low-velocity, though, such as melee weapons and medieval missile weapons.
Well I discussed the whole gun thing with my group and they said:
BOOM! Give us guns!
And so we try a game with pistols and musquetes. Can anybody point me to some nice rules? I checked those from the 3.0 DMG and those from Dragon Magazine Issue 301. But I am not sure. Any ideas?
If you want to add them, do this. Check out the Iron Kingdoms Character Guide by Privateer Press (I know Paizo sells their stuff). It's a bit pricey, but it has the absolute best treatment of guns I've seen in D&D since the d20 era has come full into its own.
~Jaye
I was thinking of running this new AP through Iron Kingdoms and it has a new pirate book coming out as well. The gun rules are very good and guns are very expensive.
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I was thinking of running this new AP through Iron Kingdoms and it has a new pirate book coming out as well. The gun rules are very good and guns are very expensive.
Are you talking about the source book for Five Fingers? I haven't seen it, but I have heard it is excellent!!
Personally, I'd have to see the big picture for the AP before setting it in the IK ...especially considering the possibility of planar travel and the like. All that aside, I think guns and pirates just go together! I think an enterprising DM should give his characters a chance to use them ...but apply the following conditions:
1) Make them expensive! A character must spend a fair amount of cash for their rarity. This usually means expensive ammo. Generally, 3-5 gp per shot should do it.
2) Treat them as masterwork or magical weapons (better), I'd rule guns require some enchantments (albeit minor) to function properly. Accordingly, they could hit creatures protected from non-magical weapons and so on. Also, it would account for their special (and rare) nature. If guns become common, then much of what makes them special (in the D&D setting) will be lost.
3) Characters should not have easy access to them or the skill sets required to use them. Today, guns are common. However, the training (cleaning, aiming, maintaining) required to use them is generally found only within three social groups (military, police, and hunters).
If guns are treated as a rare and special find in the D&D setting, then they should require several Feats to use. At a minimum ...I'd say Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Pistol) just to fire the darned thing. I'd be inclined to require a character to take a Feat to clean and maintain the weapon, as well.
4) Misses and Misfires: Shooting into melee without Precise Shot should have dire results when a player scores a miss. I'd explain this to the PC ...and then, if they do it, require each "miss" a second chance to hit someone else (ally and enemy alike). I'd treat critical fumbles as misfires with the potential to blow-up in the PC's face. For a DM, this is easy to do: If the PC crit fails, have them roll to hit a second time. If they roll a second failure (between 1-4 on a d20), the weapon explodes or backfires dealing x3 its damage to the PC.
5) And lastly, damage: I've always been fond of the second edition take on firearms from the Forgotten Realms hardcover. The rule in which you add damage dice to the weapon for each successive hit. In 3.5, I'd rule this way: Whenever a PC hits, have them roll an additional time. Each successive hit deals an additional d4 worth of damage. Have them roll until they miss. If the PC scores a critical (and confirms it), double the damage and increase each additional damage die to a d6. Continue as above. Generally, this means a PC will do 1d6+1d4 for a good hit, but with the potential to do much more.
Alternately, you could treat wounds by firearms as those that cause 'bleeding damage', with each wound suffered by a gunshot dealing an additional point of damage per round until that character's wound is bound (Heal check DC 15) or receives magical healing.
Just some of my thougts on guns!
~Jaye
If you suddenly had guns in greyhawk it wouldn't fit. So he answer to your question is yes guns and cannons would fit, as long as it makes sense for there to be cannons and firearms in your setting. If they feel just tacted on then you and the players are gonna hate them.
I think that depends on how it is handled. If memory serves Savage Tide takes place well off the Greyhawk map, likely in an area neither player nor character has ever been before. Who's to say that the secrets of black powder (or some magical equivalent) were discovered there, but have yet to make it to the mainland? Maybe it's even a closely guarded secret, regulated by merchant guilds, the government, or even the pirate fleets.
Perhaps this region was settled by Suloise who brought with them some forbidden technology, perhaps even the impetus of the cataclysms, that refugees that settled the Flanaess had left behind. Today this has eveolved into firearms.
There was a discussion elsewhere about armor and gunpowder weapons.
I don't tend to use them, but I have a Lantanese Gnome in one of my campaigns and he has a pair of pistols. They do 1d8 each and have a full-round reload time. I required that he have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Powder Weapons) NOT to be able to fire the weapons, since they're simple, but to reload and properly maintain them. He fires them when he's out of spells, or to start off a combat by putting some damage into a badguy.
Rules for them?
Simple. To-Hit is Touch attack, since armor doesn't really help you get out of the way. Once you've hit, Armor-As-DR comes into play, since that's what armor would do for you anyway.
Regarding D&D vs. the Real World?
Forget it.
Just drop it.
D&D assumes Medieval architecture, customs and technologies, but you have running toilets, international markets, colleges and a stratified culture that never changes. Technology does not advance because there is magic... But, oh yeah, magic is reasonably rare (though not rare enough that high-end towns can't have Continual Light globes for street lights...). If you're in a massive city, you can EXPECT to find a magic shop dealing with adventurer's gear and magical items. Nearly every town has an alchemist. Almost every town has a temple where there is a Cleric who can Cure Light Wounds and a High Priest who can Cure Disease. Villages have to get by with non-magical technology, but everyone else at least knows of a powerful wizard, if they've never seen one.
It doesn't make sense. It obviates the need for a suspension of disbelief.
Commoners without magic would invent technological means of recreating what people with magic has. A rifle does as much damage as an arrow, but doesn't take a master's touch to put it on target. That's why it eventually replaced archery. Armor developed as a countermeasure to weaponry. Full Plate showed up as a result of the failure of chainmail to stop impaling weapons. Pistols and Arquebuses showed up to penetrate Full Plate.
If a Magic Missile can automatically hit you, no matter what you are wearing, if someone can cast Scorch from across a room and fill the entire area you are in with flames, if a Fireball spell can obliterate an entire home in a moment (much as a cannon might - and Fireball is a LOT harder to learn than the proper loading of a cannon), then why can't guns exist? Magic is supposedly rare but present (in Greyhawk. In FR it's everywhere) in a variety of ways.
But NOT EVERYONE can cast magic. Guns make it easier for ANYONE to pick up a distance weapon and put a hole in an enemy. Towns might load up on rifles. Imagine a horde of orcs being shredded by the town's rifles - after which they pick up cannons and pound the town...
Wild West/Renaissance style conflicts with guns on both sides. Add 300 years to the mix and you get Shadowrun, but now I'm being wierd.
It should not be such a hard thing to imagine guns in a D&D world. Especially if you're trying to compare it to the real world. Guns were part of the periods D&D portrays. Sure, magic can do things guns can't - thus, magic won't go away. Having a guy who can throw a small bomb at someone else from 300 yards away is damned useful. Especially if the other side has a line of musketeers pointing in your direction. Those musketeers will have all sorts of hell on their hands if they should survive that Fireball. Think of all those Item Saves for their powder flasks... *wicked grin*
Syrinx
Stormwrack has a pretty nice alternative to gunpowder. It's called smokepowder and is a very expensive item (25 gp per pound) and can be used in a bombards, a primitive cannon that Stormwrack has stats for. In my group we have all agreed that while we like the flavor of some ships having guns, pistols and muskets are out.
I hate true guns in D&D so an intersting pirate battle sounds like bards, wizards, and sorcerers lined up with wands of fireballs incinerating the ship. Then high level pirates use 20 jump checks+ to go across ships leading griffon attack forces to reign terror over the opponents and then have saguagn(Spl?) climb up the ship and bring doom from below...
Personally, I like the whole cannons, pistols, and muskets thing, but generally these only work for one or two shots, then its down to swords and swashbuckling goodness.
I'm still debating on running the STAP with D&D or with Savage Worlds (50 Fathoms rules). I really like the speedy play that Savage Worlds offers and it suits swashbuckling combat and ship to ship encounters quite well.
Last weekend I ran a game with my group to get them in the mood for ST. I used "Salvage Operation" from Dungeon #123. It's a pretty simple mod with plenty of room to add encounters and easy scalability. I didn't want the PC's to gain any more than 1 level (these are the same PC's that will be used in STAP) so I added only on pirate encounter with a relatively low CR and lowered the CR of the some of the encounters in the actual adventure. The pirate ship had one cannon - that made my player’s eyes shine and mouths water - but the poor pirate ship sank before the PC could get it. It was like dangling a carrot in front of the horse. Now the players are begging for guns.
I will be adding firearms to my ST game, but in very small doses – one here and there with a limited amount of ammo. They are listed in th DM’s Guild after all. As was said in a previous post by PsychoticWarrior, there is a long load time. This can keep the abuse down. Eventually all the PC will have one, but finding shoot and powder will be hard and expensive.
Just noticed that the pirate on the cover of Savage Tide player's guide has a pistol holstered by her thigh. Power of suggestion--I wonder if players will agitate for firearms?
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Personally, I like the whole cannons, pistols, and muskets thing, but generally these only work for one or two shots, then its down to swords and swashbuckling goodness.
I heard an anecdote as to how it worked that way in real life.
The Highlanders were fighting the English. Both lines would march at each other doing the "ready-aim-fire" thing. When the Highlanders got into charging range they'd drop their muskets, pull out their claymores and shields, and run at the English.They'd take the English bayonets in their shields and give them the claymore wots wot.
Then, the English started drilling to give the business end of the bayonet to the guy to the right of the guy charging him, to stab him on the unshielded side.
I'd hate to be the Englishman on the very left of THAT front line :)
"Alright, here they come, now I'm supposed to stab the guy to the right of the one charging me, and my buddy here to my left.....omgwtfbbq!
I like the idea of early simple firearms (Wheellock and Matchlock). I think they work well and my PCs in my home campaign use them (although not heavily). Of course it take the Extoic Weapons (firearms) feat to use them.
I like cannons too! They will be part of my Savage Tide.
I'd hate to be the Englishman on the very left of THAT front line :)
"Alright, here they come, now I'm supposed to stab the guy to the right of the one charging me, and my buddy here to my left.....omgwtfbbq!
Yeah and it's a testament to drill and discipline that it actually worked very effectively.