If you think that a big corporation is going to let a potentially valuable intellectual property slip through its fingers, you could not possibly be more wrong. There's dreaming, but dude, you're smoking something.
Fascinating, someone states something you disagree with so you criminalise them :) I am assuming you are stating I smoke THC? In the UK it isn't criminalised by the way, it is merely a controlled.
Let 4th edition run for a while and not meet its corporately set targets and see how long Hasbro hugs the copyright which suddenly becomes valueless, or not profitable enough (like Chainmail, dropped but not sold and replaced with miniatures painted by someone who is blind alas).
Also your customer bases do not really stand up to comparison, and as such seperate business strategies should apply. Male children, also known as boys, play with Transformers and GI Joe. They tend to stop when their balls drop and they notice the jiggly bits on women. A very specilaised subset of men collect and keep toys and dolls, but not many (possibly more in Japan).
Girls and boys play D&D, and as it is a fairly cerebral activity may continue until the day they die. Many of us here have played all editions, or have played for longer than some of you have been alive. Very different customer bases, but you are right in one regard.
Corporations are stupid enough to think they are the same thing and compare them directly as if that gives their decisions relevance, because working for one I can say there is nothing as stupid, unaccountable, and socipathic as a corporation trying to give shareholders (a total misnomer as well) what they think they want i.e. dividends or a massive surge is share value. Also note the bigger the corporation is, the less in control it is of its own divisions and the more monstrously stupid it acts.
James Jacobs wrote:
Dual stat blocks = Madness.
But James, you helped write the Lords of Madness? You are already mad :) Anyways .PDF enhancement is an option but it is a ball ache for no sales from 13 onwards.
What about the 3.5 stuff after 4.0 launches (12 or before), a retroactive patch as it where? The page count is not an issue for that, the watsed man hours creating something that generates no revenue is. Then again some loony on the tinternet will do it for free anwyay :)
Anyway, very interesting posts. Particularly Eric's open and honest and frank exchange of views dependant on what happens. I think it is important to note he is not saying they want to keep at 3.5 (quite the opposite), or whether they will have to do a 3.75, just that those may become options if Wizards keep acting like high handed numpties (I added the last bit so that is my opinion and it is not humble :))
End of the day if Hasbro want to comepete with Blizzard and capture their competitors customer base they should make like GW and try and beat them at their own game, not turn a game that has its own customer base into something that is clearly alientaing some of that customer base. Like they say "Roll like they have a pair", rather than creating some plagairised hybrid.
End result is if 4.0 cans (scarifices cans of Red Bull to Zeus), Hasbro will drop Wizards, which will have devalued significantly, and hopefully someone that gives great customer service, attention to detail, and ultimately produce sbetter quality products, with a nice cash flow from good sales, will step in. Look I play fantasy games, I can dream can't I? :)
Thanks for making the Paizo position clear, your customer's expectation is managed :)
I just recall the change from 3.0 to 3.5 with AP1 in DUNGEON, which obviously took time amending it. I started AP1 before the hardcover, and avoiding repeating the version swap mid-campaign makes sense.
Then again another option could be dual stat blocks after 4.0 comes out, like is done for the LotFR Rokugan stuff. The setting would need retroactive 4.0 stat blocks, and dual 3.5/4.0 from #13 onwards, with the extra work but should appeal to a broader customer base.
Well I received my Pathfinder #1 in the post and it looks great, apart from page 53. It hadn't been trimmed correctly and still had excess margins that had colour samplings on, that obviously extended beyond the cover size. The printers then helpfully folded it over so it didn't extend, which has helpfully added a series of triangular creases. Joy :)
Now I'll obviously look into what to do about this with Paizo Customer Services (although I live in the UK so international returns promises to be fun). Just wondered if anyone else had experienced something similar and there had been a bad batch?
I wondered when this thread would start :)
Well I have been looking at the .pdf(s) on my lunch break at work, as so far I really like what I see. So I am already apprehensive. Why?
Well, the odds of me running Pathfinder before 2010 are slim, we are about 3/4 AP1, and then have AP2 and AP3 to consider.
Like a few above money is not an issue for me, and I like to collect, but I do find pointless waste offensive. So, I am stuck with wondering whether Pathfinder will be 3.5 until the end (although if successful will it end anytime soon?), or will it cut across to 4.0 part way through. So why is this an issue for me?
Lore/fluff against crunch. Lore is usually always useful, occasionally rule changes are drastic enough that something that happened in the lore of a setting under a previous rules version becomes impossible, which undermines my immersion and buy in to the setting. I still have all my old 1st and 2nd edition sourcebooks, I don't give a toss about the old rule books, but I really get annoyed having to re-create stat blocks to then have them released again in s sourcebook which is just a re-hash of something I already have. Well, irritated, not annoyed :)
But one thing that REALLY attracted me to Pathfinder was the organic phased growth of the world of...*checks his new .pdf* Golarion. If it cuts to a new ruleset halfway through are Paizo going to go back and retroactively patch the entire campaign 100% compliant to the 4th edition ruleset, adventures AND background/source material? I doubt it, certainly not for free. Then again Paizo have been very gamer friendly so you never know. I just wonder how the expect to manage their customer's expectations given WotC's announcement.
I expected to get 3.5 adventures, and a 3.5 campaign setting to run them in, with rules/stats for gods, major NPCs, settlements etc. Thus even when I have run the official campaign adventures I can re-use ALL of the content for my own adventures set in Golarion. This new virtual world is already potentially being polarised into an east and west, except 3.5/4 countries springs to mind :)
Whether I like 4th or not as a game system will be something I decide when I get the three new core books, I have heard rumours about what sounds like talent trees, and if it has the equivalent to respeccing (already touched on in the PHBII) I know D&D is finally turning into WoW. I don't dislike WoW, my main is Durgam on Earthen Ring EU, but it is not PnP and it never will be. Basically PnPs have consequences for player decisions, actions, and choices, in WoW these are very easily undone.
Anyway, I'll keep subscribing, if worse comes to worse I guess half the chronicle will be 3.5 and the rest 4.0. the story will remain the same, but the players and what they did and how they did it will probably end up being very different :)
When she oversaw the Last Laugh thugs roughing up Ruphus the Wee Jasidan nailed her with a charm person (she rolled a 1).
He has never taken advantage of it really, and quite likes her natural affinity for death and magic, and her high Intelligence. He has called upon her a few times (usually via sending).
It came to a head last week in Lords of Oblivion in the Brass Trumpet. He forbade the other players to touch her. He is head of the Cathedral in Cauldron now given the heretical activities of the former clergy leaders. She cleverly claimed sanctuary and beseeched his clemency, and gave them Fario back, and quite happily told them where Velior was (dead man...erm, half-fiends shoes and all that). When the other players found out he had kept in touch with her for two years and never said they weren't impressed, but he made it clear his personal business is his, and the knowledge she may have is now Church business.
Given Velior got pounded to -36 hp and bloody paste last night by the parties Saint Cuthbertine, Jil is now the defacto Jester for Assassination in the Last Laugh, currently she is in the Cathedral awaiting the raising of Finch, which will occur for any inormation he might have (thus finally tying up two year lose end about forgery).
The Wee Jasidan is into his politics and Machivellian chicanery, the rest of the party is not. Should come to a head discussing who gets to be Mayor at the start of the Foundation of Flame. Jil is bound to come up again as a bone of contention. What fun we shall have, assume they survive V.
It has been a while and we had a big break (lots of real life things came up) but they are about to clobber the meeting in Lords of Oblivion. We have been recently joined by an old player who has brought her character across from when I ran Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil (she was the sole survivor from the fight with Imix):
Halbarand: male human Ftr3/Clr3(Saint Cuthbert)/Pious Templar9
I just played it as a hungry but garrulous minion, that was very sedentary. The Wee Jasidan took over Ghelve's Locks after the adventure, as clearly The Vanishing was a magical malady and Jzadirune was too dangerous to be left unwatched. The mimic became a pointless butler/manservant of sorts, and as he was the only one who could speak Undercommon it had little interest in the other PCs.
Given the PC is question got up to no good in the Malachite Fortress far below using the corpses to practice necromancy, encourgaed by Embril (he was Shackleborn and she needed him fully evil as a spare), he was happy to have the mimic as a first line of defence against anyone nosy enough or stupid enough to break in (Alleybashers, Last Laugh etc).
He prefers skeletons for an aesethetic point of view, as he can polish the bones, and after the flensing fed the fleshy remnants to the mimic. To be honest he may have to put it on a diet, I guess I should advance its HD. Eventually he'll probably try and make it undead.
Nice to see other groups established a relationship with it :)
Would be nice if there weren't any so it got to be the PCs for once. I think they get tired of playing second fiddle, 2nd edition FR was a sure way to engender ennui in players. Elminster essentially didn't exist in mine (he did but I would never inflict the old goat on my PCs as tehy are my freinds), and I played Khelbun as a total git who just used adventurers for his plans as he saw fit, so long as Waterdeep was safe he didn't care too much what they thought of him. They oddly respected him for this as the understood the position he was in.
Alternatively all the titans are evil, in this case the Runelords. In a sense players could be almost parasitic, particulalry wizards, desperately having to loot spells and gear from their fallen enemies as there is no other way to get them. In a sense taking the power back.
That is why my group love SC AP so much. Sure, I run it in GH but they are the titans in the region. If they fail the city falls, everything revolves and pivots around them. They really know they are making the difference. The Circle of Eight are so far removed for what is going on, and the lands to the north are so far away, they might as well not exist. In other words, no cavalry to come riding in to save the day :) In fact if "cavalry" did show up they'd most likely go "Who they hell do you think you are telling us how to save our city? Where where you when all this started? And no, late is not better than never, now bugger off, you have no legal authroity here".
Not sure if Pathfinder will have much downtime for crafting but in campaigns that don't PCs usually have to live off their enemies anyway, at least until high level when the can transport to a metropolis to go shopping, and even then they usually want something that is way too expensive or bespoke (and would take a bloody age to craft).
From what I can see ST is similar to SC in this regards, however AoW was not. One of the main reasons I ended up deciding to skip it, with the PCs becoming prominent religious and political figures in SC, as well as the only ones powerful enough to challenge the Cagewrights, there is no way we will go back :)
PS This doesn't mean I'll spit my dummy out if there are some, I'll just given them the El treatment, by making them as mute, irrelevant, and invisible as possible :)
It is a valid point. We are still in SC as various RL issues keep stopping our game for a quarter at a time (breeders usually).
We are going to discuss as a group but the original plan was to finish SC, skip AoW, and go straight to ST.
It now looks like we will finish SC and then go straight to Pathfinder as I should have the entire first path by then. I don't like playing hand to mouth anyway, and we don't have the time regardless.
However SC is a hardcover, and Pathfinder is a series of books, so actually getting to store away the last of my DUNGEONs safely doesn't seem too bad :)
Going to be strange to say goodbye to GH though. Easier with FR, never even really said hello to Ebby (gave all my books to a mate so he could run acampaign for his missus and her friends).
I can see how some might see it as wasteful though.
1st: I immediately replied as soon as I saw Lisa's reply to Locke. So, if this has been discussed in length apologies for having been too excited to read it all and jumping to the end.
The questions: Would I want to see Pathfinder miniatures that would be representative of new stylings? Like those goblins Wayne has envisioned? Just like that? With possibly ogres in future, or miniatures for every adventure in the adventure path? ( I made that last bit up but if only)
YES! Gah! Don't tease me. Seriously, the book plus PDF if you subscribe was my dream, or so I thought. This would be unreal.
Would I want them to be metal so I could paint them and even convert them myself?
You mean I could get to paint them as well? *passes out*
Okay, I know most can't paint well but I like metal miniatures and I know plastics can cost a fortune to get up and running thus small runs are usually metal, and thus not pre-painted by some halfwit with a broom rather than a brush. But...
I am a miniatures freak, I can't help myself :) Blame Airfix models. Damn, this would be amazing if it happened. I am realistic enough to accept that a market of one is not going to be sustainable :) If you did it might upset Reaper though (in regards to my customer relationship with them). Maybe a survey to see if it is commercially viable with your customer base?
One think though. No random. When you buy a new car it is not a random colour, or with random features. I like to know exactly what I am getting, particularly when the fretsaw and pin drill come out for some butcheri...I mean converting.
For the record I spend about $5000 a year on miniatures (depends what has been released), and have been since I was 20 (obviously was not as mucg before that due to financial restrictions). My games cellar (basement) looks like a world of fantasy and sci-fi meeting violently in miniature. Again I know I am not your usual demographic.
PS regarding the initial point to the thread I too love these goblins, but only platonically.
We will have to suck it an see as they say, and I have already ordered my lollipops :) It looked good to me but getting to download the PDFs as well if you subscribe moved me from buying from a LFGS when it launched to instantly subscribing (thus the new bit after my name that I just noted).
I will give it a go for the first seven, I think that is the first full path unless I have misread something. It looks intriguing enough that some of my old players are thinking of coming out of retirement, real life commitments be damned. I assume they wills till feed their children though :)
So that would be $19 for me a month, which includes shipping to the UK, for face value of products worth $39 or so (including the value of the subscribers free PDF). Also getting over $2 to £1 at the moment means I spend more money on lunches at work in three days than this will cost me, or to put it another way it is a fair bit less than an hours wage (although UK cost of living tens to be high comparedt to most places).
The point here is the cost of this product and its "value" is dependant on your disposal income really. It could cost £20 a month and I'd still but it from what I've seen.
As for the ownership thing, imagine if the reverse was true? That Hasbro dumped WotC and Paizo get enough capitol together to buy WotC.
Note most big corporations tend to act fairly insane at some point, particulalrly when the suits start bottom feeding. So it could happen.
I'm vexed. I'm terribly vexed.
Gah! WotC and Hasbro, assuming the corporate monkeys in suits are still involved, never cease to amaze me.
I like online content to, as an extra, I cannot surf the internet in the bath which to be honest is where the vast majority of DRAGON and DUNGEON magazines get read. It is traditional for me to be all wrinkly and freezing by the time I read the last page. Bumcakes and arsecandles.
At least Pathfinder looks rather good. Gonna hurt like hell to say goodbye to Greyhawk...again.
DRAGON and DUNGEON have become the best D20 supplements to my games ever. Oh well.
I just want to say thanks to everyone at Paizo and James Jacobs in particular for the Savage Tide...
Gets my vote :) From what I have seen in 139/140, and 348, plus the Players Guide (which I ordered from Paizo) it looks fun. Who am I kidding, it looks great :)
So much so we are going to go straight from AP1 to AP3 :) It makes sense anyway, my current party come from Sasserine. They are also looking forward to playing a party of chaotics and be salty sea dogs, I envisage a whole multiverse of Cap'n Jack Sparrow clones/homages forming everywhere.
The only problem I have, and there little to be done about it really, is because everything is in in seperate periodical magazines and PDFs it can get physically unweildly to carry about. Given the amount of extra information available thus far it does appear then when issue 12 is done this really needs to be made into a hardback ASAP :)
Anyway, thanks for this, it's re-invogorated my AP1 campaign with the info on Sasserine and a desire to get into AP3 :)
Okay, on the 20/09/2006 I posted I had not got 139/348. They where there when I got home in the same envelope. Possibly TPfG is waiting to mail them together to lower shipping/mail costs. I hope not, the point of subscripions is to get magazines early and for less as you are a guaranteed sale.
However Dungeon 140 turned up yesterday, 05/10/2006. Not sure what Paizo have done but possibly a suggestion to stop messing around consumers of their products may have been involved :) Anyway, I'll let people know when Dragon 349 arrives.
Thanks to Paizo for anything they did, ultimately TPfGs bad service is not directly their fault but clearly something seems to be happening. Still meant what I said about when the re-tender is up though.
The last Dungeon I got was 138, the last Dragon I got was 347. I am in the UK. My subscription is with the Place for Games (Paizo's European distribution partner). I ordered the Savage Tide Player's Guide from Piazo in the USA and it arrived fine within 5 days but a UK distributor cannot get magazines to me?
The most annoying part is Leisure Games in London, whom I web order most of my RPG books from, have issues 139 and 348 in stock! How can they have it and The Place for Games doesn't and why am I wasting my time with a subscription? Note TPFG has been late several times before. I'd rather pay a few quid more each year and order on a case by case basis and get it ASAP than have this unreliable service. I hope Paizo take note of this when the European distribution deal is up for re-tender and obtain a more reliable partner.
Joy :) But bottoms too :( Being in the UK means time to ship and silly P&P. Oh well, gotta catch them all :) Only £8.68 in total with P&P (parcel so the postman can't fold it in half as usual) and it's not as if I'll be able to get it over here anyway. Hope the players appreciate it, mind yoy that would involve detaching them from WoW long enough to notice.
Absolutely Vendle, about half of the people in our guild know each over in real life, and lately even those that don't have been hooking up via MSN and web cams. Quite nice really, nice to talk to my european cousins :) We tend to sort each other out for free with gear (or prid pro quo) and plan instances like old style PnP adventuring. It works, it's relaxed, it's fun, and nobody gets full of themselves or takes themselves too seriously.
Also exploring alts has set in, and yes it makes the game less tedious. Gang outings are fun, particulalry for rep grinding. We tend to do this as a guild and RP whilst doing it, poor Deadwood Furbolgs :)
As for the game being made easier, we haven't let that bother us and I just can't help but have a pop at braggarts :) (in reference to my earlier post). Never thought I'd see a thread about WoW here though, it really has little claim to the RPG in MMORPG :) It's still fun though, it had to be with 75 days played on my main :)
Hmm, WoW at a Paizo forum. I have been playing a little, erm...75 days with Durgam on (EU) Earthen Ring. RP server apparently (actually it is getting better). Obviously level 60. I don't raid but I did make an Ebon Hand for myself. Beginning to lose interest really, playing the AH is like playing Monopoly :)
As for it being easier, well possibly, but for anything that is to be inclusive to all people, not just the unemployed/students/retired, and to make money (Blizzard's actual point I guess), then that was inevitable. It may irritate 1 in 100 people, but fortunately in democracies majority rule so the other 99 get what they want :) Also sucess at WoW (or MMORPGs, or even RPGs) is hardly a milestone I'd use as being successful in life :)
I wasn't aware of the deviation from the old "format" but between family, career, and other hobbies having prebuilt encounters may be handy. As such I have ordered it, when I have read it I will proffer and opinion, if I can be arsed to :)
As for drow ninjas well, you might recoil from the concept, but I saw people do something similar when drow first became a playable race in the original Unearthed Arcana :) Give it a year or so and you won't bat an eyelid. I believe this moving forward and adaptation/evolution is called progress. Without it we'd still be in caves knapping flint to hunt wooly rhino's to offer in appeasement to GGG :)
As for people confusing disagreeing with an opinion and insulting people instead, or appointing oneself as a spokesperson for a generation, or intuitive subliminal market knowledge, it is nice to see it still going on only insofar as it gives Sebastian a way to string people up by their own patards :) The internet, and forums specifically, are merely a soapbox for opinions. Facts, or truth, are very rarely expressed here :) Of course that opens up the debate on the nature of truth, and that would be threadjacking so don't :)
Have fun, play nice kids :)
I hate players who ignore warnings, under prepare, and then get themselves TPKd, and then somehow think it's everyone else's fault but their own. Players take responsibility for your actions. Actually you could just say people and apply that to anything :)
I hate players who claim to be insomniacs but spend all night playing WoW and then cancel D&D because they are tired and couldn't get any sleep. Don't play WoW all night perhaps?
I hate how splatbooks/expansions/supplements have turned D&D in a wargame with a constant cold war that is so pervasive, and horrendously commercialised and untested/balanced, that players that used to be good RPers and story weavers have become munchkins/power gamers, min/maxers, insert derogatory label here. Back to the Core books I think and converting basic D&D modules to 3.5 to remind them of where this all started and what has been lost :)
I also hate opinions being presented as facts.
Like others though I like this thread though, very cathartic :)
Gratz James, got promoted a few days ago myself, it's nice to be appreciated isn't it? Mind you it's nicer to be paid more :) Managed to get 40%, W00T!. Shop, shop, shop, shop, shop *looks at Paizo art with interest*
Hmmm, they have compensated you well for this I hope? Otherwise I'll feel like a git (no change there then). No need to answer of course, pennies is personal :)
This is the misconception of many. Why must one setting be "D&D" and all others "not D&D"? D&D is a game system, not a world.
Nope, not a misconception. An opinion based on the fact the 1st edition AD&D game and the Greyhawk setting developed in tandem, something which for any setting or version/revision since has not been duplicated. Incidentally, it is your misconception that your opinions are facts, and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is somehow wrong. I also said if one setting HAD (which of course it does not) to be defined as the D&D setting, it would be GH by default, as it was the first developed in tandem and context. It was also proffered as a supposition (thus the words " I suppose"), not a fact. You should try supposition, you might just like it :) Uncertainty broadens the mind wonderfully and provokes thought and dialogue, arrogance and conceit narrows and stymies it. Although down this road lies semantics, pedantry, and point scoring. I now understand why others on this board feel the need to "stick the boot in" as it where. You reap what you sow :)
do not see Eberron as being as quirky or non-traditional as many of the dead settings
No problem with your opinion here, I tend to agree. I found Dark Sun very odd, in my opinion. But dead settings? Hmmm, based on what facts? The defenition of dead is the opposite of being alive, or inactive. As long as anyone in the whole world is playing a setting it cannot be dead, and unless you have an array of highly advanced satellites spying on every game going on the planet you cannot possibly know, for certain, for fact, half or less of what you present as being the incontrovertible truth (as opposed to being your opinions). I am curious to this approach to communication with the rest of your fellow man (and women). Why? Do you find it works for you in real life face to face? It's almost as rude as talking over someone, which is something I envisage you do when you don't agree with what you are hearing :) Or do you wear body armour IRL :)
I think the majority of people who play D&D don't use Greyhawk, or FR, or Eberron, or Planescape, or whatever. The majority of people make their own homebrew world.
You amaze me :) You almost admit it's opinion based on ruminantion and not fact, ergo "I think", and then we launch into full-on-opinion-presented-as-absolute-fact-and-inviolate-truth (FOOPAAFAIT for short) as a bold, and totally unsubstantiated, fact. Hmm, let me try it :) The majority of people DO NOT make their own homebrew world. True? false? Neither, because it is an OPINION :)
Takasi mate, are you a laywer? A politician? Why do you write these things? Surely you know such absolutism is going to lead to some form of conflict? Oh well, at least it can be amusing but at the end of the day people come here to discuss, and offer opinions on topics, and expect respectful dialogue. They do not come here to be told they are incorrect, their opinion is somehow flawed, and thus beneath consideration beyond trying to refute it relentlessly (which is what your constant needling infers). Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder about these things? Is it a behavioural trait from some kind of condition? Note I am not taking the piss with that, I have a gaming friend who has a mild form of autism and likes thing "just so", he cannot help himself, he is not being anally retentive, it's just how he is and he has a medical reason. Thus we make allowances for him, is there a reason why we should for you beyond taking Sebastian's stance of ignoring you? You could say we should respect your opinion, which is very true (if you presented them as such) but that cuts both ways.
At the end of the day he is giving offence with reactionary outbursts and unfortunately there is no form of pistols at dawn on a forum :) I think I have made my point, hopefully more IMO, or better still IMHO, and less "I think this and now it is fact and you are wrong because you disagree with me". Play nice kids, and now on a more AP3 thematic end note: Yarr! To tha' plank wi' 'im 'oi sez! :)
"Bloody Jack" Kidd
"Thar' be no law 'pon tha' high seas! Yarr!"
The White Toymaker wrote:
The most dangerous habit that you could carry over would lead to your players sitting around the table before the first session saying "First Level Rogue looking for AOW group!"
Surely you mean rouge :)
The other problem might be they have no fear of death, and won't be able to adapt to the fact that in RPGs, and D&D in particular, death is not just something that happens and then the nice angel brings you back. Like it used to do in computer games, when I was a lad :)
How does this work with Outsiders? Basically Outsiders bodies and souls are one, they are not seperate, thus the need for very powerful restoration magic for outsiders. Some of their make-up, or essence, is made of a plane.
So an Outsiders body is them in their entirety, body AND soul, so if the Abyss (Occipitus) reforms anyone who dies (and all their gear) are they effectively true ressurected, as their flesh cannot be reformed without their soul intrinsically being reformed at the same time? If this is the case is it fair for non-outsiders? As it is the Abyss that is reforming them and it is Abyssal planar essence they are being made out of do they inherently become fiendish, or a demon?
If a humanoids body is taken from the prime (or wherever) when they die and is reformed upon Occipitus (with all their gear) where does their soul go in the interim? Does Occiptus take it and try and corrupt the owner into accepting demonhood?
I am inviting said associate around (whose character has the Smoking Eye template and was/is lying in state), we shall drink heavily and ruminate on the dark of this conumdrum but as some of you have guessed I have put one of my players in a "damned if you do and damned if you don't position". Fortunately he enjoys that sort of thing :)
Just curious on other peoples take on this, it becomes less rules driven and more story driven I think. Sufficed to say in our campaign when Adimarchus dies upon Occiptus the 507th will have a new and willing demon lord :)
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
I fail to see what the hostility to Eberron is really based on. It's an alternative setting - there are lots of those. OK, GH isn't really supported by anyone except Paizo (in a sort of unofficial capacity), but that isn't Mr Baker's fault nor is it actually a problem of Eberron.
Something else occurred, although somewhat off topic and inspired by Aubrey, but related to the hostility some old timers level at Eberron (particularly here). It is probably jealously, but not because it is more successful or "better" compared against GH for example (that comparison would be unfair, WotC would have to actually put effort into GH to make that a fair comparison).
These are Paizo boards, NOT WotC D&D boards. Although Paizo has a special relationship with WotC, it is not WotC. The edditors, although they hide it well, are somewhat partial to GH as a setting :) Now, Eberron and FR get new books, WotC supports them, and in the case of Eberron still produces actual adventures for the setting (mostly just source books for FR). GH gets nowt (or nothing for those who aren't northern British). Is it so unreasonable to resent Eberron getting so much exposure? To be..well jealous I guess. Would it really hurt WotC and Eberron if they where the sole sources of campaign support and Piazo did adventures in Dungeon for GH and FR (or anything that was not Eberron), as WotC won't? If it did what does that actually mean? There is still a GH market that is being deliberately ignored?
Personally I think the hobby and community should be inclusive, not exclusive, but I can empathise (something we should all do in general) with those that see Eberron as "stealing" pages that should be on their favourite setting which they CANNOT get anywhere else. However, more settings means more players and more people that will learn that you can game without a mouse :) Regardless of the setting.
Now, WotC has licensed DL, and RL, and Darksun. Their communities get new content. I guess there is some frustration for GH fans, in that why WotC won't sell it so someone can develop it as a product line (the why could, and has, lead to essays). It may be time for some people to be able to buy what they want (if there are enough numbers to justify an economical market base) and to stop trying to sell people what you want them to have (levelled at WotC of course not Paizo). Just a thought :)
I have bought everyting for Eberron but I have only ever really skim read it (which I doubt is fair to Keith or his work). As such I am not in a position to fully compare it to FR or GH (for which I own everything and HAVE read it), not at a rules and background level, or "crunch and fluff" as the kids say. I can say what I have perceived though.
What I like about Eberron: It is getting new blood into the hobby. It looks slick, the books and art seem beautiful, and they are probably much better physical quality than what I got to start with. I assume it is true about new blood and it is selling otherwise WotC will have been told by Hasbro to drop it, like Chainmail, for "not being profitable enough".
What I dislike about Eberron: It seems to be creating an entire generation of players who think Eberron is D&D, and everything else isn't, or shouldn't be. It isn't D&D, it is a D&D setting, and a setting which deviates quite strongly from traditional core fantasy. The situation now is what would once have been fringe is fast becoming core (and whoe advocates seem to alienating a lot of long time players). In my less thoughtful moments my gut tells me it is being weird for weirdness sakes*, like Darksun seemed to me (and I was younger then), but I doubt I am being fair.
Bit of hypocrisy there of course with all these settings, there have been so many. To many of us one of these settings IS D&D, as that is what we played in first, and for the longest, and probably still are.
I suppose the only one that can claim to be D&D is Greyahwk because that was the setting Gygax ran and developed the game in. He created D&D, along with Rob. How long does that hold true for though? Ed Greenwood created FR before he started playing D&D and adapted D&D/FR to mesh. However to many FR is D&D as well. Or Driz'zt is :)
That of course may be the main difference between old and new. Gygax created a setting he loved to play a game in he clearly loved. For a long time GH was synonymous with D&D.
Now, Eberron was commisioned (although not directly) and when sold made Keith $100,000 and gave WotC a new product line to sell. It may be the crass materialism and profiteering that Eberron appears to be associated with that is getting some of us oldies wound up (many where the same over 3.5 revised books), but I think Keith was probably just stoked to get credits, get a year or two's salary (if that) and also get to write more material. On the flip side I think we all know what most Corporations want :)
The problem with ranking or rating a setting is that an individual will tend to compare it to what they know, and if the don't play or are familiar with Eberron then that will tend to mean they will compare it to what they do know. This tends to be another setting, which then leads to...well, I think we have seen where it ends up :) Point is if you play Ebby you probably would put loads of points about what it does better, and if you don't you probably put loads of why it is worse. I honestly think it is going to be difficult for the majority of us to be objective about this and it will polarise the community. Let the trolling and flame wars commence :)
*I have my own suit chainmail that I forged, I play with toy soldiers and roll dice as a source of probability determination for pretend actions. Weird is obviously a relative statement.
I sort of understand txwad's point but I am happy just to get the some extra Suel gods (Xerbo and Osprem) even if they are lumped in with Procan (an Oeridian god). Strictly speaking Xerbo and Opsrem, although husband and wife, are estranged from each other. Also Xerbo and Procan battle alot, so maybe the Azure Cathedral will be a cross between and divorce court and a brawl :)
I will possiby substitute in Norebo (txwad is right, it does feel "better"), particulalrly as he and Wee Jas have had an affair for about a millenium and she has a temple in town. Not going to lose sleep or get over agitated about this though :) All I can suggest is have the AP core, and then have campaign adaptations for Eberron, Forgotten Realms, AND Greyhawk (which could cover exactly this sort of situation).
Until such time as all the Greyhawk gods are in the PHB core cannot be considered true Greyhawk, it more Greyhawk-lite :)
Here is what I put in the Plain of Cysts:
The Blade of the Sun: This sword is a sun blade. The blade and tang is formed from a single golden yellow crystal of Frystalline from Blessed Fields of Elysium. The blade glows with a golden glow from within, magically empowered to destroy evil and undeath. The cross guard and pommel are forged from gold plated solanian truesteel. The hilt appears to be ivory with two equidistantly spaced golden bands engraved (+1 smite damage) with Celestial prayers beseeching Kyurek, favoured of Pelor, to aid the wielder in battle against evil and the undead. The script is inlaid with Frystalline and the “ivory” is actually the remains of Kyurek’s femur (thighbone). The weapon is superbly balanced and very light for its size (like all sun blades).
Glorious Dawn: This is a +2 sacred heavy mithral shield of glory (BoED pg. 112; A&EG pg. 93; DMG pg. 284; HoB pg. 130). The central face of the shield is embossed with a gold plated holy symbol of Pelor. This symbol extends across the shield’s face as a stylised sunburst radiating outwards towards the shield rim. The sunburst is inlaid with alternating bands of Frystalline crystal and gold plate. The inside of the shield is engraved with phrase in Celestial entreating the wielder to “Rise with Glory at Dawn, Serve the Lord of the Sun”. The glory power works without the need for the Leadership feat or auras for Saints of Pelor, for those who have the True Believer feat and whose patron deity is Pelor, or those appointed as a champion of Pelor by a High Priest of the Church of Pelor.
The Order of Law: This is a +2 heavy adamantine shield of command (DMG pg. 283; A&EG pg. 93). This 2 ½-foot diameter round shield gleams like a mirror, so it is actually quite difficult to perceive the otherwise prominent symbol of Law that forms the central shield boss, or the fact that the metal used in its construction is adamantine. The rim of the shield is engraved with liturgies ordering warriors to be steadfast in battle and obey their commander’s orders (presumably referring to the wielder). The lettering used is decipherable by any intelligent creature with a language, even illiterates.
The Wings of Heaven:+1 solanian truesteel heavy mace of impact (BoED pg. 38; A&EG pg. 14/97) Seven flanges like stylised angels wings rising from each angels back, the angels legs merge to form the haft. Each angel represents one of the Seven Martyr’s of the Celestial Hebdomad, the ruling Council of the Seven Mounting Heavens’ of Celestia. As the mace is made of solanian truesteel the weapon confers a +1 to confirm criticals.
The Invincible Blade: +1 heavenly burst solanian truesteel battleaxe (BoED pg. 38/113; A&EG pg. 14) double bladed axe with each blade face engraved with Heironeous’ holy symbol, with each hand facing outwards from the haft. The weapon’s name is engraved in Common down each side of the axe head where the haft is mounted. The hilt is covered with fiendish blue dragon hide with a Seren wood haft engraved (+1 smite damage) with battle hymnals of Heironeous in Celestial inlaid in solanian truesteel. As the blades are made of solanian truesteel the axe confers a +1 to confirm criticals.
Aegis of the Defender: This armour is a suit of +1 exalted mithral full plate (BoED pg. 112; DMG pg. 284). The armour is stylised with numerous celestial motifs (although angels wings are most prominent), inlaid with solanian truesteel and silver. All the stylised angel’s wings upon the armour are plated with gold. The Aegis is engraved with numerous prayers to Sealtiel, the Defender, to shield and protect the wearer in battle from the malevolence of the vile servants of evil. +9 AC, 25% arcane failure, max Dex bonus +4, armour check penalty -3, weighs 25 lbs, counts as medium armour. Hardness 17; hp 50. 26,500 gp market value.
Wrath of the Crusader: This sword is a +2 blessed cold iron greatsword (BoED pg. 113; DMG pg. 284). The blade is forged of cold iron blade with the sword’s name engraved on both sides down the blade in Celestial. The cross guard and pommel solanian truesteel and are stylised as flames and angel’s wings. There are engravings (+1 smite damage) upon the cross guard in Celestial. These are righteous battle hymns of the Seven Mounting Heavens, calling down the wrath of the Raziel the Crusader, the Firestar of the Celestial Hebdomad, upon the demons of the Abyss. They are inlaid with platinum. The hilt is bound in platinum with threads of Ysgardian Heartwire for added durability. The pommel is set with a single facetted ruby the size of a walnut.
Banner of Law (HoB pg. 133) 8000 gp.
Banner of Good (HoB pg. 133) 8000 gp.
Horn of Goodness/Evil (DMG pg. 259) 6500 gp.
Trumpet of Doom (BoED pg. 116) 8000 gp.
Has engraved haft/hilt, +1 smite damage, +1000 gp, Dragon # 331 page 90.
They broke parley? Deary me, guess they are chaotic or the dwarves worship Clanggeddin :) Certainly not a lawful act. Oh well, at least you tried to get them to chat to him :) I must admit I went with the whole eloquence thing, mind you he has only 13 Cha and +19 Intimidate but I guess I was playing him +19 Diplomacy :) I think playing him so relaxed meant the PCs where worried about how tough he was.
One thing is XP. My players know that if the negotiate and deal with a hostile encounter I will award them XP for avoiding it through non-violence. They also know that if they meet an non-hostile encounter, but get added benefit (learning of Grehlia more specifically in thius case) I will also award full XP. This makes being non-bloodthirsty and lawful easier on them as they still advance. They may not get as much treasure, but they still level up :)
In the original web enhancements for Life's Bazaar and Flood Season Jenya is Clr 5 and then Clr6. At 6th she takes Leadership, which I didn't like. As the temple was going onto a defensive footing with Sarcem's assassination I had her take Craft Magic arms & Armor. She helped the Saint Cuthbertian PC and the Pelorian paladin with arms and armour, they ahve paid of course (the Church's funds where seriously depleted after buying the wands).
Coryston Pike is certainly viable, as listed in the original web enhancements. The Wee Jasidan virtually lives at Vortimaz Weer's, and happily shops there. I also had Skie shake some contacts occasionally for specifics. The players asked for items as opposed to money when going to rescue Zenith, and asked for two suits of adamantine full plate. The reward money is per head assuming 6, I just times it by 6 and let them divide between the three of them as they wished.
Also the Plain of Cysts was an opportunity to place custom bilt celestial treasures. I went max end of the suggested table as included Arms and Equipment Guide, and used Book of Exalted Deeds for materials and abilities. I also made the holy bastard sword a sun blade, and got rid of the cloak and bracers. This made up for the dozens of wandering monsters the players had encountered crossing Occipitus that had no treasure. The items where slightly weaker or equivalent to what the players already had, but where different enough that in most cases the PCs went with them, sold their existing gear, and augmented the celestial gear in Greyhawk City afterwards. I did a little blurb on each of them, named them, what they where made from and what they might have been doing on Lunia when Adimarchus invaded. I'll post them when I get home, as an example. It is a way to give players what they need or want when they can't create.
The PCs forshadowed Nabathatoron alot for themselves. They asked the Chisel about the Demonskar, why the Basalt Bastion's where built, and who is that glabrezu demon that Surabar is fighting in that mural please? They are such curiosity Cosby's :) However the clincher was when the Wee Jasidan cast charm monster on Kymzo as he flew away i.e. not charm person so an outsider is effected.
The gist was hello, how are you? What are you doing here? Work for hags you say? Really? Treat you well? Oh, you used to be Nabthatoron's factotum, fancy coming to live inside a volcano away from all these bullies etc. You can imagine the rest :) Anyway, I did an offstage event of The Big N losing his mind at Kymzo spilling his guts and trashing his throne room and clobbering demons as he screamed at his crystal ball. The players then pointed out to Kymzo that N was scrying them and he may have just dropped himself in it, stay with us, we'll look after you. The paladin was unsure but the Wee Jasidan pointed out mephits are not usually evil and this once had just spent 5000 years surrounded by frustrated and exiled demons, what did he expect? Paladin grins at the thought of another soul to redeem. Thus when the met The Big N, which the decided would be inevitable as they where messing up his plans, they where very ready indeed.
Dimensional Anchor, demon dirge, storm of law, holy storm etc. An enlarged Saint Cuthbertian uber tank whose Scion of Surabar was like a maddening stench to the Lord of the Demonskar and held his attention (as well as clobbering him with a sacred warmace). It looked 50/50 and was a brutal fight until the Wee Jasidan critically hit N with an Enervate and rolled 8 on 2d4 and suddenly N couldn't hit them as much. At that point it was just a matter of time.
Alek of course was dead having charged N. The players felt little sympathy for him (well the paladin of Pelor did a little bit), particularly the Saint Cuthbertian who felt both Alek and Sarcem before him had let the Cudgel down. They have made the decision that really they best just sort the problems of the region out themselves as other people are just embarassing their religions with pointless sacrifices. Some may call this hubris bat as Nidrama had chosen to reveal herself to them, as she had Surabar, clearly they where destined to do such things to the greater glory of their churches. The party do have a lawful harsh component to them and have no time for idiots :)
Dugobras is tough, and I was concerned what he would do to just three players. However it says specifically he is not looking for a fight. He just wants to use his pay from helping the Ebon Triad to make himself a suit of Masterwork Full Plate. He just likes to use the spellweaver furnance to help with smelting and forging, because it gets so hot. In theory he could work adamantine in it.
My players, including one who is a blacksmith, just chatted to him. They found out about one of the Cagewrights too, the one who abandoned the Ebon Triad, although in the ET context (it explained where the skulvyn had come from at least). Basically they roleplayed :) It was a nice change of pace, the palyers had essentially slaughtered their way through the jungle, and then ettins and hill giants, and now they could have a chat with someone.
Yeah, I know, it suprised me as well :) The Saint Cuthbertian talk shop about smithing, and how long it would take Dugobras to make some custom specification masterwork heavy maces (to help arm the church, he inetdns to have them enchanted). He shared a keg of his dwarven mead with him as smithing is thirsty work, even for fire giants :) He was enlarged at the time as well so Dugobras didn't think of him as a little person. The Wee Jasian admired the prototype cage and discussed whether Dugrobras would be able to schedule in any masterwork crafting should he need materials to enchant, happy to pay of course. The paladin was confused, Dugobras was evil, but wasn't doing anything evil, and was clearly a very skilled smith who just happened to craft for coin. Perhaps he could be redeemed and stop making raw materails for evil employers? Being evil is not justification to kill on sight :)
And that was that. The players left him in peace and generally thought he seemed decent enough and where glad they hadn't been forced to fight him. As a further development they killed Nabthatoron (dimensional anchors, demon dirge, storm of law, holy storm etc) so Dreghakus is in charge and the hags are dead. Dugobras will most likely leave the Demonskar, I might have him turn up at Cauldron and ask after the PCs, saying they where interested in commisioning some work :)
Try it with just 3 :) Actualy Sean K Reynolds did a short treatise on parties of a different size from 4 at his website.
I ran Life's Bazaar from the orginal Dunegon and it looked too hard. I checked it against expected ELs and it was. So I ran Evil Unearthed first, so my 3 players where just 3rd when I started the actual AP. It worked, when I felt they weher a little bit too tough I made all the constructs undamaged to keep them challenged. I run my hobgoblins like elite praetorians anyway, so they kept them concerned from play style as opposed to bumping CRs :) Certain things to bare in mind.
1) The players may advance faster as they are splitting XP for 4 between 3 (or 6 between 4) but they will only be a level or so higher, the players will have less total HP, spells, present less targets etc than a correct sized party.
Hope this helps.
Yep, sure fire way to polarise the community, and thus make a mockery of the word community. All I can say is what I played or ran, so rather than end up at logger heads lets all get misty eyed and rave and not rant :) Lets celebrate settings, old and new and yet to be and not knock each others fun :) I'll start and take 10 on my threadjack :)
Known World (Mystara). Loved it, I was 12, B2 will forever have a place in my heart, along with B4 (still my favourite). Got me going as they say. Stayed with it all the way to Companion and Where Chaos Reigns. Brion (ripped of from Ruins of Brookmere D&D solo book) was an elf 10 attack rank J I think until disintegrated and gust of winded. Celeste was my female thief, amd Phelonious, my favourite, was a lawful figher (paladin). He exists in WoW now :)
Greyhawk. Loved it, was 15 and my first serious(TM) campaign (as all the other players where 20+ years old). Played Temple of Elemental Evil, Slave Lords, Agaisnt the Giants, Vault of the Drow etc. Took my ranger from level 1 to Ranger10/Thief8/Bard14 (my DM let me be a ranger as opposed to fighter like one of the Lankmar heroes). Sivarn, my most favourite character in the world (name was nicked from a UK gaming magazine called "Adventurer", my penchant for plagarsim or laziness continued).
Reavenloft. DM inserted this in between Temple and Slavelords on the way to Safeton. I loved that sun blade. Loved fighting Strahd. I tried running it much 2nd edition as a setting much later, players didn't like it, too many died :)
Darksun. We didn't get it, was like mad max on bad chemicals. Bought it as a gift for a friend who had never run. Oh well, it made a brief break from for myslef (see below).
Forgotten Realms. One of the group gave me the grey boxed set as a gift with Under Illefarn and Lords of Darkness. I was about 16/17, I ran a small campaign, then several at the same time with other groups. I have been tied behind the screens since, I haven't played as a PC since (apart from a small Call of Cthulhu D20 that last about 4 weeks, "Rats with childrens faces!" being my best quote from that and the high point). FR lasted a long time, with a seven year campaign lasting from when I was 21 to 28 being the nadir. Players made 23rd to 24th level. Started in Daggerford ended in the Vallis Crystal aboard Demonwing. Players plane hop a lot so Planescape becomes intertwined in all this.
Al Quadim/Maztica/The Horde/Kara-tur. Never ran but bought to fill in FR blanks because I collect things obssessively. I am a game companies wet dream :) Fortunately I regenerate like a troll and can sell my organs to medical science.
Greyhawk. 3.0 comes out, I ran the Adventure path from The Sunless Citadel to Bastion of Broken Souls set in Yeomanry into Keoland. Went well until the end, never run for girlfriend and boyfriend combos.
Looks good, until the "lets remove it from the Great Wheel" because...? Invalidates many happt memories, continue to buy for nostalgic purposes, unlikely to ever run again.
Greyhawk. 3.5 comes out. Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. Was Okay, went fine until going to the Temple. Never run for an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend combo (different pair) when you are sleep deprived from continental shift patterns. Don't run big adventures with an old ruleset that need oddles of converting, or wait until someone else does the notes :) Oh and listen to your own advice (see above).
Greyhawk. Nearly half a year passes of no gaming (! erm, well there was NWN). Paizo come up with this strange idea of an adventure path in Dungeon. Read Life's Bazaar. Start getting excited. Start running, hardcover comes out. We are about to start Secrets of the Soul Pillars, players already excited about Age of Worms, haven't mentioned Savage Tide yet. Bliss.
PS Bought Eberron, looks Okay but seems to desperately trying to be different. I consider the possiblity I am getting old and a "stick in the mud". Give all the books (and I mean all) to my friend to consider running for another group he DMs for (I haven't read them thoroughly). He goes with Shattered Lands instead. Now we have become old farts, the naysayers of new campaign worlds (aplogies to Openheimer).
PPS Mr Berkshire Hunt, good luck with the old/new campaign setting :) (aplogies for my odd sense of humour and cockney rhyming)
PPPS Did Monte Cooke really know what Berk (Berkshire Hunt) was actually slang for? :) I somehow believe he did, even if TSR didn't :)
Thus endeth my threadjack. TTFN.