I have found that the 28 points point buy works quite well. My party has just finished 3foE and suffered 2 casualties, although it has to be said that they were mostly because of some carelessness of the players in question and some occasional hiatus in the groups strategy.
I must say that I do use heropoints so if you will not 30 or 32 points might be in order
I'm a big fan of the 28-point base, AoW or elsewhere.
IMO it allows a heroic-level stat (or even two) without producing someone who looks like an NPC from FR (did I say that out loud?).
Later,
Jack
BTW just joking about FR :P
We used a 28 point buy for a 4 player party. We just had our first casualty, and that was due to the party coming together as if they were magnets after they got hit with a fireball. They're lucky the second fireball only killed one of them.
So, yeah, I wouldn't go over 28.
I'm running 32 point buy on Age of Worms. I've had four fatalities, and I just finished blackwall keep.
edit: oh yeah, I killed someone last session. make that five fatalities.
28 point buy is good.
If you're worried about TPK's you could allow some starting
equiptment and unusual races based on the quality of the backstory.
I will tell you right now that letting them be half dragons is
not necessary.
It very much broke the point buy.
A bit off the point, I admit, but what are the merits of point buy over say "4d6, drop the lowest and put it where you like"? This is not a knock, flame or anything else negative, I'm just looking for opinions.
what are the merits of point buy over say "4d6, drop the lowest and put it where you like"?
My first reason for going with point buy (usually 32 points) as opposed to stat rolling is so that all the players start on an equal footing (and they can't complain about their dice rolls)...
I have just played in a game where, for character creation, we were able to roll 4d6 seven times (dropping the lowest), and doing this process twice. We were then able to pick from the two lots of stats. The first lot of stats that I rolled would have been the equivalent of about a 14 point buy, whilst the second lot of stats would have come to 51 points.The second reason that I give for using point buy is it gives the players more flexibility to create their stats exactly how that want them.
The third reason is that certain players who are a bit too keen with the eraser cannot change/bump their stats (and I think we all know one or two people like this) without me noticing.
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I'm not a big fan of the point-buy system. I much prefer the randomness of rolling for stats. Playing a character with mediocre abilities can be quite fun, especially if the DM favours you slightly. As for Age of Worms, I would recommend rolling 5d6 and keeping the 3 best. AoW is an epic campaign which deserves powerful heroes.
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I always preferred the randomness of rolling stats too. However, a couple of my players felt strongly that the point-buy method would be fairer, for much the same reasons that Luke pointed out. Given the lethality of the AOW campaigns I've seen on the boards, I decided to go with 32 ponts. It's worked out well so far. All of the PCs have a few good stats, but none are uber-characters.
I enforce point-buy in my games so that my players can create their characters on their own without me having to be present to watch them roll.
I use 32 points, since at 25 or even 28, you just can't play a monk or paladin. Those classes still suffer from MAD (multiple ability dependancy), and if I tried to lower the point-buy below 32, those classes would disappear from my games completely.
Funny, I was starting to home in on 28 after a long debate on the merits of 25. I have heard mention of some pretty scary encounters in this series, so I would hate for it to end before it really got started.
Anyone advocate anything lower than 28? Is it possible or just plain sadistic?
Sadistic. No doubt.
25-point buy will give you an average of 12 or less -- one 16 and the other stats will average 11 or less. This is a real formula for mediocrity (IMO), and doesn't lend itself well to particularly heroic RPing. I'm sure some will disagree :)
Some may say its true for a 28-point system, but me and my players have been satisfied so far.
Jack
A bit off the point, I admit, but what are the merits of point buy over say "4d6, drop the lowest and put it where you like"? This is not a knock, flame or anything else negative, I'm just looking for opinions.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but players cheat. I can't count the number of characters I've seen over the years with at least two 18s.
Even if everything is on the up-and-up, I'd point out that having two points more on Str justifies a +1 to CR. A couple of points difference between players (when rolling randomly) can give a significant advantage (or disadvantage) if it's in the right (wrong) place.
Point buys put everyone on a level playing field with little justification to complain. If someone is intent on rolling, just tell him/her the numbers can't be better than the point-buy totals.
My two cents,
Jack
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I just started my group on the AoW path. I went with a 32-point buy. I based this on the high body-count people have been mentioning on the board.
So far, I think it was a good choice. The players have had no cakewalk so far. We are about halfway through the Whispering Cairn and 3 of the 4 have been dropped into negatives at some point.
Plus, I'm going to be including some of the nastier rules from Heroes of Horror; so the campaign is going to be deadlier than usual anyway.
I'm not sure high ability scores make all that much difference at low levels--except maybe STR and CON. But each to his own, and deal with the players you got. I have the luxury and disadvantage of running AoW as a one on one with my son. We used our usual method which is roll scores 4d6 in order, then roll 4d6 and replace a score of your choice and switch any two scores of your choice. This results in some options if you want to play a specific class/race, but retains an element of randomness that we both like--forces you to play with a character that isn't completely optimized.
As for having to have high scores to avoid TPKs etc.--I think that the TPK tends to result from two things--1st players not knowing when to quit (it's kind of like poker--you've got to know when to walk away from the table), and 2nd DM approach to things. If the DM rolls in the open and let the dice fall where they may, some nights things are just going to go against the PCs. This is fine for some groups and not so good for others, so it's up to the DM to figure out what works. So if you're more of a killer DM, I guess you give a higher point buy or a more favorable score rolling rubric, if not, you encourage PCs to be aware of their characters' particular limitations and playing accordingly.
I use the Iron Heroes point buy method with... 24 points, I think. That's just enough that you can't do something silly like two eighteens and nothing else. Iron Heroes point buy is worth more than regular though, since stats start at 10, not 8.
Standard array is working fine with my group.
I know I'm going to get some eye rolling with this, but this is what we did in my campaign. I gave the players a choice of three arrays: 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14; 18, 18, 16, 14, 10, 8; and 18, 16, 16, 12, 12, 10. They could put them anywhich way they wanted. This made everyone very happy at the beginning of the game. We are also using action points as per Eberron. In addition, they could choose from a list of creatures to play that were LA +1 or +2. All of this buffing made absolutley no difference to character survival! This is a tough adventure, and my players like the combat aspect, and even buffed as they were they have been dropping like flies. Warms an evil DM's heart to run an adventure like this one.
I have got into a lot of arguments with this.
Truely good and bad luck exist.
It can mess up dice character generation.
If this happens to you, look to the best character.
Add up all their final stats.
Do this with the other characters.
Now subtract each one from the best and give the player
that many points to put directly into attributes.
You get equal power and some 3s might remain 3s.
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Point buys put everyone on a level playing field with little justification to complain. If someone is intent on rolling, just tell him/her the numbers can't be better than the point-buy totals.
My two cents,
Jack
I agree 100% and as a player I really enjoy the point buy system as well because it allows me to build the stats like I want to, to fit my character, without having to rely upon the randomness of die rolling.
Mike
A bit off the point, I admit, but what are the merits of point buy over say "4d6, drop the lowest and put it where you like"? This is not a knock, flame or anything else negative, I'm just looking for opinions.
Just ask someone with bad luck...wait that's me! Now I'm a team player and a good sport but it would irk even a saint to play the equivalent of a 15 point buy character while his best buddy plays a 50 point-equivalent character.
I play with my wife the woman rolls more 18s that is right the laws of luck warp around my wife's dice during character creation. I roll bad. My dice mock me. However my DM watches my character like a hawk, and keeps an eye on my wife. The stats are second to the player and the players INT AND WIS. Some times it sucks that his/her character is stronger faster, and smarter than yours, but it kicks when your sissy saves the day on brillant planning and a little luck. I am not a saint and yes it is a pain to play handicap to the noob. But the point buy was designed for tournments and full parties, a three man crew on point buy may be short on a stat that they need.
Got to go with luck for creation and skill to keep my limp leg character in the race.
I give my guys the choice of 28-pt. buy or the '7 4d6s' method, and they take the latter every time. I let them re-roll their whole array if their total attribute bonus is negative though (and that's happened a surprising number of times).
I must have all the hot dice, however. Our mortality rate has been high (see Obituaries).
Normally, I'd let people roll 4d6 and take what they could get, but since this is a very tough campaign, I had them use a 32 point buy. Some were fairly inexperienced, and I'm not going inflict instant death on players for not knowning every PC trick in the book.
Of course, after about 4 months of playing, no one has died yet. Lots of close calls though. . . Which is all right by me. Looking forward to all the hard encoutners, PC death is still bound to happen anyway. That's okay too. :)
I only have two players due to problems of having four of my friends at the same time around the gaming table because of everyday-life constraints (work, family, etc). I've let them use a 36-point buy system. Even with that, as soon as they were separated, one of them died at the "hands" of the lurking strangler. I've thrown in an NPC. We'll see how it turns out.
I'm running 32 point buy on Age of Worms. I've had four fatalities, and I just finished blackwall keep.
edit: oh yeah, I killed someone last session. make that five fatalities.
I also run a 32 point buy. We've had 3 deaths so far, though the most recent one was just raised.
40 point buy, with 1 score 10, 1 score 12, all others 13 or higher, *after* racial adjustments.
And I kill an average of 1 PC every 5 sessions (4 hours each).
When I started DMing in the 80s I had my players use the old 4d6 (take the best 3) for six rolls, in any order, and it worked fine for first and second edition. However, it was a different game then; a strength of 9 had the same bonus to hit and damage as a strength of 15. Players needed a few high numbers just to get real bonuses; a character with all 14s would have pretty much the same adjustments as a character with all 9s. Of course, there were things like spells known and encumberance that were different from a 9 to a 14, but for combat adjustments anything under a 15 was meaningless. I still DM for the same guys that were my players in the 80's, and only recently have I convinced them to try the point-buy. I started using the point-buy (25 points) in 2002, when I ran a few games for some newer players. I always liked the GURPS system for its point-buy system, and I had high hopes for the D&D version. It is not perfect, but I knew when I saw my old-school players rolling characters recently that the time for rolling dice for characters in over. My old-school players had the equivalent of between 42 and 50 points, and expected to receive the same XP and treasure awards for the creatures they encountered. But, I couldn't justify giving a 1st level fighter (in a party of five) an award of 30 XP for killing an orc (CR 1/2) when the orc simply presented no challenge to the uber-characters; to do such would be equal to simply giving away experience. And, to select more difficult encounters (i.e. higher CR monsters) would simply propel the characters up in levels even faster. It is obvious that the designers spent quite a bit of time trying to balance the game; I think that balance should not be quickly dismissed. The designers set the standard at 25 points for a reason, and my own experience has shown it to be fair and workable. Of course, in my campaigns I make most of my NPCs using the actual NPC classes, and I reserve the PC classes for only the most special of villians. I design almost all of my NPCs with the non-elite array, or with 15 points. Done this way, 25 points is fine. It forces the players to rely on cleverness and skill at play rather than on huge bonuses. I've seen players with the equivalent to 40 or 50 points; they rarely need to really think. And, in all fairness, there are exceptions to every rule... but I wouldn't make exceptions often lest they become the rule. Having made my feelings known, I would add in closing that random dice rolls could be OK, if they are done for flavor instead of for unbalanced power. Two old 1st edition methods that worked well then and would still work well today are to roll 3d6 twice for each attribute, taking the better of the two rolls but keeping the scores assigned to the attribute rolled, or to roll 3d6 twelve times and take the best six, assigned in any order. Both of these work well when used in conjunction with rolling 3d6 (in order) for NPC attributes but treating any rolls of "6" as a "4" and any rolls of a "1" as a "3" for non-special NPCs.
I don't roll up monsters anymore because they were below average.
What if you max all the monsters because the PCs are maxed?
I don't roll up monsters anymore because they were below average.
What if you max all the monsters because the PCs are maxed?
our group ran with a 30 point build, but then we only have two players... for the next AP (which i am running... my first time out since we played 1st ed) i am going to allow the players a 32 point build... once again though there will only be just two PC's
If I point buy I always use 32 points, anything below that makes some classes virtually useless (paladin and monk.) I like the 4d6 7 times idea though.
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My group generally uses 4d6 7 times drop the lowest and if the total mod score (adding up all the ability score modifiers) is less than 8 you get a reroll. We've never gotten anyone with over an 11 total mod (excepting for higher ECL chars)
Then again my group isn't the brightest lot and could use some extra power in the characters.