Did I read the editorial right? If so, then the party has a chance in AP3 to kill Demogorgon himself once and for all. I was a little skeptical upon first reading this- surely not, they wouldn't make such a drastic move in the planar cosmology.
But the more I thought about it.... Who ever decided that the Prince of Demons should be a two-headed baboon/tentacle thing anyway? I find Grazzt and Orcus MUCH more interesting and iconic of "demonkind."
So, I say, Down with Demogorgon! Death to all baboon-demon-tentacle-thingies-with-two-heads!
This has some interesting implications for future campaigns. The balance of power in the Abyss is broken. Orcus and Grazzt war with each other over Demogorgon's vacant throne. Cultists of the Prince of Demons seek ways to return their former lord to life (much like Temebrous for Orcus). If Orcus succeeds against Grazzt, he becomes a good candidate for apotheosis. The Lords of the Nine fight against the rise of this new chaotic threat, maybe even allying with the heroes. And of course, all this spills over into the Material Plane to make for some good save-the-world, demon-fighting fun.
Orcus trying to take over the world. Orcus... demon "god" of undeath. Demons and undead trying to conquer the Material Plane? Sounds like Warcraft III to me, and that was a great game! I can see it now- most of the world's cities are in ruins, destroyed by meteorites, hordes of the unliving, and vast armies of demons spilling over the horizon. It's up to the party to find a way to stop them from turning the mortal realm into another Lower Plane.
Wow, I have a few paragraphs on AP3 and I'm already thinking about AP4!!!
I think it would be cool if the players got to "kill" Demogorgon in the final climactic battle of this Adventure Path, but I don't think Demogorgon should be killable outright by mortals. He (or should I say "they" since it is two heads with different personalities) should just be defeated and banished for a few years or decades, as Zuggtmoy was by her defeat in Temple of Elemental Evil. He is too classic an opponent, too useful for other adventure designers who like reptiles, dinosaurs, tentacled things and monkeys mixed in one giant demonic adventure. The other demon princes are interesting, but too narrow in their interests. Demogorgon is much more eclectic.
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I can just imagine people saying the same thing waaay back in 2nd Edition Planescape when Orcus died (and then came back). "No way! He is an icon of the game!!" The fact that Dungeon is so willing to write the cosmology changing modules for 3/3.5E makes me very happy. Afterall, they have already had one where you kill a god...
"To defeat the most powerful of demon princes, the PCs must negotiate a planar consipiricy aimed at weakening him in his own lair and destroying him once and for all."
Straight from the editorial. Sounds like they would be pulling in help from many other sources- good aligned gods, the rival archdevils perhaps, lesser demon lords, etc., anyone who would stand to gain from Demogorgon's death (which is almost everyone).
Plus, this would be a chance for the other demon lords to become less focussed, absorbing parts of Demogorgon's "portfolio" as it were.
You could REALLY throw the party off by having a lesser lord than Orcus or Grazzt take up Baboon Boy's spot in the Abyss. Perhaps the demon god of were-dinosaur ninja flumph pirates? :)
O.k., if they can manage to bring in a plot by Orcus and Graz'zt in the final strategy to bring down Demogorgon, then maybe that would make killing the Prince of Demons outright worth it for such an epic climax.
Personally, I'm pleased the PCs will be taking out that baboon headed rival of mine! Finally, demon lord supremacy is mine!!!
Personally, I'm pleased the PCs will be taking out that baboon headed rival of mine! Finally, demon lord supremacy is mine!!!
Dread Lord, perhaps you could make an offer to the PCs themselves? After all, they will be eliminating your foulest foe. I'm sure your unholiness can think of a suitable reward.
*sends an offering of several half-illithid adventurers from her menagerie who did not survive her meddlings and have a future in the Dread Lord's undead armies*
After reading "Dawn of a New Age" there's a sidebar that states that if the PC's fail there will be chaos and destruction as Kyuss ascends into godhood. That is to be expected. But it also states that the ensuing chaos is beyond Kyuss' plan and control. It mentions that the Age of Worms has been a long time coming and has been prepared by something bigger and more evil than Kyuss - that there is something darker and deeper than Kyuss lurking in the multiverse...
...perhaps a connection to the Savage Tide?
Four of the adventrues (that's 1/3 of the Savage Tide campaign) are set on the Abyss. It'd be ridiculous to limit those four adventures to just Demogorgon stuff.
Put another way, expect more demon lords in this campaign than just Demogorgon.
so FC1 would come in useful for a DM running AP3? ;)
Um, I'll have to run this in Greyhawk cause as far as I know in Forgotten Realms, Demogorgon is looked up in Watchers Keep in Southern Amn.
Afterall, if I am forced to incorporate crappy realms novels into my campaign setting why can't I accept the outcome as generated from playing Throne of Bhaal.
Eric Boyd, can I get a ruling on this? Is Bioware storyline cannon. I mean, for knights of the Republic they pretty much created cannon for the star wars universe....
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Note that "defeat" is NOT the same as "destroy", "kill", "annihilate", etc. Napoleon was defeated but not killed.
To wit:
"...the PCs must negotiate a planar consipiricy aimed at weakening him in his own lair and destroying him once and for all."
That, I think, is the part that makes this more than Demogorgon's Waterloo. "Destroy" is, after all, the excact same word as "destroy", and a synonym of "kill" and "annihilate".
Though I did have to read that twice to notice... damn words and their hiding amongst other words.
I think it might prove interesting for my PCs to do this AP- in Shackled City, they kept Adimarchus alive (it was a real-time four hour in-character roleplaying extravaganza, one my group has never done the likes of before or since) and are actively working at his redemption. I'll have a lot of fun tying him into all this.
As far as canon and the Baldur's Gate games, I have heard many times, the games are not canon, but the novels are. As much as I love the Realms, I've never had enough time to waste in reading the adaptations of Pool of Radiance/Baldur's Gate, etc. so I couldn't tell you what is up officially with Demogorgon, but I'm sure there is an easy way to get him up and around in time for him to be a pain in the FR backside.
Um, I'll have to run this in Greyhawk cause as far as I know in Forgotten Realms, Demogorgon is looked up in Watchers Keep in Southern Amn.
What if the party enters the keep and finds Demogorgon sleeping on his cot - but then one party member pulls back the blanket and discovers nothing but a few pillows underneath it ... HE'S GONE!
What if the party enters the keep and finds Demogorgon sleeping on his cot - but then one party member pulls back the blanket and discovers nothing but a few pillows underneath it ... HE'S GONE!Genius!
I don't know 'bout y'all (it's late, I'm drawling...), but I'd have some mighty peeved players at that point - which would rock, because they'd be twice as determined to get Monkey Boy.
Of course, Demogorgon won't be destroyed. The entire plot of AP3 is for demogorgon to be slain by some pesky adventurers and then return as an undead god (sound familiar?). Maybe the PCs destroy the weaker of Demogorgon's heads leaving himn with just one head? Maybe they turn one head against the other so Demogorgon destroys himself?
Will the Lost temple of Demogorgon make an appearance? Has this question already been asked?
Um, I'll have to run this in Greyhawk cause as far as I know in Forgotten Realms, Demogorgon is looked up in Watchers Keep in Southern Amn.
Afterall, if I am forced to incorporate crappy realms novels into my campaign setting why can't I accept the outcome as generated from playing Throne of Bhaal.
Eric Boyd, can I get a ruling on this? Is Bioware storyline cannon. I mean, for knights of the Republic they pretty much created cannon for the star wars universe....
Novels are canon, computer games are not, from the perspective of game products.
Don't worry, AP3 is easily set in the Realms. (Much easier than Age of Worms.)
--Eric
Are there any good adventures that use Demogorgon that I can though at my player before AP3. They have never gone up against Demogorgon and I thought it be fun to throw him at them before they get chances to kill him.
Samael beat me to it. (I thought Rand Al'Thor killed you!)
What he said.
Hey thanx for the info Samael. Not only did you give me hints on where to get the adventures I was also looking for the Death knights on another post so you help a lot…but do you or anyone know what issue that is?
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Four of the adventrues (that's 1/3 of the Savage Tide campaign) are set on the Abyss. It'd be ridiculous to limit those four adventures to just Demogorgon stuff.
Put another way, expect more demon lords in this campaign than just Demogorgon.
Oooh! I guess we'll finally get to use all those Demonomicon articles. And, of course, we'll be getting the Fiendish Codex in just enough time! You sly dogs...