Director of Narrative
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Hey there fellow DMs and Players. One of my friends in my group (who has been the primary DM over the years) is thinking of running us through the Demonwebpits/Spider Queen FR stuff, and recently mentioned using pre-generated characters that we have to choose from. I just wanted the community's feedback on their opinion/experience on what that would do to a game.
I've had a DM do that before, but to his credit it was a short few-sessions long "heist job" type game in a homebrew world not unlike Victorian Britton. He had certain 'specialists' and we had to choose the 'team' and who would play who. It was quite fun.
But I'm not sure how I feel about the same thing being done for this campaign. I fully trust him and am quite confident that he would make up good PCs, but I think I'm leary on whether the length of the game bring up frustrations with choice that was made for me.
Hit me back with some of that ol' Paizo board 'enlightenment'.
I guess (like all things) it depends on the situation. If the game is going to be short, if the set-up is to have middle/high level characters that have been working together for a long time - then pre-gen makes sense.
In general though the creation of the character, the development of a back story is a big part of the fun for me. Making the tradeoffs, choosing feats, etc - thats a big component of the "play" and why I play D&D instead of video games. That however, is me, others may not care as much for character and character development. For myself I would rater be given guidelines and build my own PC.
I would ask your DM if you can have some part in building the character. This way, you are somewhat involved and probably like the character more. The DM would have the last word, of course. I guess he wants to ensure he has a workable party composition.
Stefan
As a DM, I prefer to pre-gen the groups PCs, for a whole mess of reasons. The first, and most important, is that I can balance them and make sure everyone is useful to the party. Secondly, that way I can tie their backgrounds intimately to the plot and NPCs I am planning on running them through.
I also like being handed a really cool PC sometimes and making him my own...maybe that's the actor in me mewling to get out though.
I've done this to players myself but it was 2nd edition and I was handing out characters that were all bending the rules to a certian extent and were tied into the plot. In 3.5 I'd hesitate unless the characters were really tied to the plot for some reason. 3.5 characters have a lot of choices involved in their creation and usually one does not want to take that from the players. I guess I would express your concerns and talk with the DM to find out what the reasoning behind the ruling was. Demon of the Spider Web Pits does not normally strike me as a campiagn that requires pre-generated players.
But maybe your DM has a really cool take on plot were your all going to be Drow renegades or Derro and Svirfneblin or something. In that case it might be loads of fun to play along with your DMs plan.
In a few instances, I gave my players pre-gen characters.
In one instance it was for a one-shot trek through the Tomb of Horrors. I took some of the suggested characters in the back of the modules to run through the adventure. It saved us alot of time, and gave one more challenge to the players who asked me to run this module for them (they were co-workers who hadn't played in a long time and were itching to get the rush of a dungeon-crawl once again).
In another instance, it was the beginning of a brand new campaign. I introduced the game to a bunch of new players and made them play the zero-level adventure "Treasure Hunt". I figured that since all but one player had never played the game before, why not skip the stat/race/skill picking and just get on with the game. That was about ten years ago and two of those players are still in my group today.
For regular players, I guess it's how they look at it. I myself would certainly not mind playing a pre-gen character (I always boasted that I could play anything they threw at me!). Some have a fantasy of being "just like Gandalf", then let them be Gandalfs. Others dream of "being like Conan", let them be Conans!
In the end, it's a group decision. I think.
Ultradan
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I personally wouldn't like it. For a one shot or short adventure arc it's fine, but for a campaign spanning 6 months to a year+, I want to choose the skill sets and feats that I want to play. I usually have an idea of what I want to play next campaign and some different twists I'd like to play with, and having that taken from me is just rude. I play D&D so I can make decisions and choices affecting my character and his/her survival, when a DM railroads me by picking my character, forcing me into situations, or heavy handed "guiding", I loose interest in my PC because I no longer have control of him/her. Game is no longer fun if someone forces you to do things you can't control. Life is where we get railroaded, not D&D fantasy. Viva la Freedom!!!
as always IMO
FH
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and for the record, I think the 2 examples of times when Ultradan used pre-gen characters are not only good, but sound like they would have been extremely fun to play out. I assume, of course, that after the 0 level characters leveled that they got to choose what they developed into when they leveled up.
FH
While there is nothing inherently wrong with pre-gen characters, I myself have a poor personal opinion of them. Some players are bored by the character creation process and love a DM who hands them their stats and background, but I could never understand those players. Like FH, I tend to get bored by a character who isn't "mine" both in terms of stats and in background/personality.
TGIF
and for the record, I think the 2 examples of times when Ultradan used pre-gen characters are not only good, but sound like they would have been extremely fun to play out. I assume, of course, that after the 0 level characters leveled that they got to choose what they developed into when they leveled up.
FH
Actually, that adventure is EXACTLY the right adventure to introduce new players to the game. The players start with no equipment (they're slaves).
So when they find a rusty old bastard sword for the first time and have to use it, they automatically give it to the strongest looking character (he became the fighter).
They also find a book with strange writtings, which they gave to the brightest of the bunch to decipher it (it turned out to be a spellbook and he became the wizard).
The elf in who used his knowledge of nature and lead the group to shelter during a storm became the ranger.
The one who done all the sneaking around became the rogue. And the one that cleaned off an old statue of Pelor, actually had a vision of the god and became a Cleric.
So they didn't really choose anything, but the consequences of their actions chose for them.
Ultradan
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Actually, that adventure is EXACTLY the right adventure to introduce new players to the game. The players start with no equipment (they're slaves).
So when they find a rusty old bastard sword for the first time and have to use it, they automatically give it to the strongest looking character (he became the fighter).
They also find a book with strange writtings, which they gave to the brightest of the bunch to decipher it (it turned out to be a spellbook and he became the wizard).
The elf in who used his knowledge of nature and lead the group to shelter during a storm became the ranger.
The one who done all the sneaking around became the rogue. And the one that cleaned off an old statue of Pelor, actually had a vision of the god and became a Cleric.
So they didn't really choose anything, but the consequences of their actions chose for them.
Ultradan
Where can I find that adventure? I have a few people in mind that I would like to bring into the fold and I have heard alot of good things about it. And if Ultradan says its good.......
FH
Where can I find that adventure? I have a few people in mind that I would like to bring into the fold and I have heard alot of good things about it. And if Ultradan says its good.......
FH
I still have my copy from the old days. It's surely available online somewhere. I think it's called AD&D module N4: Treasure Hunt.
(Yes, it's second edition, but since the players start at zero level (minus 500 xp), it's easily adaptable to any version.)
Ultradan
Hey there fellow DMs and Players. One of my friends in my group (who has been the primary DM over the years) is thinking of running us through the Demonwebpits/Spider Queen FR stuff, and recently mentioned using pre-generated characters that we have to choose from. I just wanted the community's feedback on their opinion/experience on what that would do to a game.
I have played and handed out pre-gen stuff and it is usually fun - if your DM is fun.
A suggestion: ask if the DM is willing to accept character concepts. "I would like to play a highly mobile ranged warrior" or "I want to hate undead and seek their destruction". This method allows the DM to start tailoring your backstory and class level to what you want whilst giving the DM final say on the creation process.Oh yeah and I ran city of the spider queen for a year (assuming that is what your DM is running), there is loads of xp out there. you start at level 10 and go up to about level 18. that gives you a bunch of time to customise your character.
igi
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I also was a big fan of giving out pre-gen characters with minor rules tweaks under 2e. I remember one campaign where the technique was particularly successful. As mentioned, it gives the DM a chance to integrate the characters with each other and with the plot.
The suggestions about asking your DM for a particular type of character are good. I would also ask that he make extra characters. That way no one is stuck with a character the DM thinks is cool, but is actually lame.
Part of the fun of role-playing for me comes from playing a role that I don't have a lot in common with and then finding the cool angle, getting into the character's head and then making it my own. Often times I run into folks who play nothing but gruff dwarf-types or noble paladin-types, or scoundrel Han Solo-types or whatever and never really stretch their role-playing/imagination/character development muscles. It's one of the main reasons I love gaming conventions. Some of my best "performances" have happened at Gen Con with pregenerated characters. Likewise I've had players in my home games play characters that either I or a game designer created some of these are still floating around today years later.
Now for the question at hand, I say it all depends on how much you trust your GM and their ability to entertain at the table. If the GM in question does a good job with his NPCs then you might want to give it a chance. If not, you might want to talk to him about running a one off as a test first.
GGG
The suggestions about asking your DM for a particular type of character are good. I would also ask that he make extra characters. That way no one is stuck with a character the DM thinks is cool, but is actually lame.
This is a good point - the one time I handed out characters I must have made 30 characters to choose from for a group of 5 players. I think this really helped as instead of bickering over who got the two 'cool to the players' characters they actually had a tough time making their picks. Of course you have now just given up a good deal of any benefit one gets for having a fast start - it takes a while to choose from 30 characters.
I have played Pre-Gen Characters and have had players play pre-gen characters...I am not a fan for a very simple reason: Investment...I have found that as a player and a GM people tend to get emotional and some form of spiritual investment into their characters and from them as well. The games tend to be more fulfilling when people are invested in their charcters from creation to finish.
I totally agree with you Captramses. The biggest flaw with using pre-gen characters is lack of investment. There isn't the neccessary "bond" between player and character. It is crucial for the player to *care* what happens to his/her character and be motivated to see that character develop and succeed. Forget plothooks, you've got bigger problems when you're saddled with some vanilla character who might live or die based on the decisions of an apathetic player.
Don't get me wrong. Pre-gen characters can be very useful for novice players or for spur-of-the-moment game sessions. They just are a complete failure, IMO, when used for long-term campaigning. Demonweb pits is an awesome campaign that is going to utilize ever bit of the DMs dedication and energy - why undermine all that effort by employing pre-gen characters?
How do you feel about Pre-gen Characters?
I love them. My players hate them.
I think SirMarcus (above) explained well why.
Pregenerated characters are great for learning the game, but half the fun for the players is watching a character they've created become more powerful and fleshed out. I think a good method of keeping both the players and DM satisfied without the Dungeon Master out-and-out creating all of the characters is to agree on a pre-rolled set of ability scores to distribute, certain restrictions within what races can be chosen (as far as level adjustment goes), classes (only the core books, or including stuff from the Complete series?) and feats/spells (again, core books or supplements?). That way, the players may still have freedom while remaining balanced and if the player can email the DM their character's concept, then the DM can help to tailor that PC's personal history to the campaign and the other PCs.
When it comes to DMing, Pre-gen characters help me out in what to throw at my players or incorporate them with the party. As a player, I despise pre-gen characters. One of the reasons I like D&D is the fact I can make my OWN character and not use someone else's character. I find it bland just to grab a character and play. It is always more fun to create a character and thier own backgrounds than play one already pre-generated. A DM would never be able to make me play a character I did not make...
I don't enjoy pre gen characters as a whole I've played them in games before but i never got into the joy of it. I don't mind pre-gen stat blocks where we get some good and bad. My players tend to enjoy that because it gives them freedom to explore but i try to make sure the the bases healer, basher, sneak, and magic man are covered.
Investment ... Very insightful. Totally obvious as the key point after it was said it but maybe had not fully entered my thinking before it was mentioned it.
Diagle mentions on some other thread that he is currently playing the Demon Web Pits except that they are all trying to escape or some such. Essentially his DM has taken that adventure and put an interesting spin on it.
With that in mind I think that there are legitimate reasons a DM can want to limit the players choice. Really playing an adventure were your all characters native to the Underdark fleeing toward the surface with Angry Drow head hunters hot on your heals might be totally cool.
That said I think its possible to have ones cake and eat it to. Just tell your players the plot line basics - Read them the opening section discussing how they just managed to evade Drow patrols near their city and are currently just beyond its walls ... then have the players make their characters. You can have all sorts of restrictions. Say every player must be from an Underdark race and 1/2 the Players must be Drow and can be good or neutral but not evil - players that are not Drow must be actually Good, their helping Drow renegades escape etc. Your players will almost certainly be willing to work within these restrictions (hell if the set up is good and its open season on Underdark races they might be more excited then you are) and viola you get your campaign set up and the players get to make their own characters (subject to the characters approval from you) and are therefore now invested in their Drow Priestess of the Morning Lord or Svirfneblin Underdark Ranger.
I think players develop trends regarding the races and classes they like to play and are afraid to explore new venues.
As a DM pre-gen characters are a chance to break down preconcieved notions of how a race or class plays. You can create characters complete with personalities and drawbacks which allow the player to explore new areas of roleplaying.
They can be fun, I think.
I don't like to pre-generate my players' characters. That's part of the fun for them. What I will do, at least when I'm planning adventures in advance or using pre-written, is to encourage them to pick a good mix of characters even if nobody wants to play the cleric, and encourage them to stick with their characters throughout the campaign.
I might pre-generate characters if I was teaching the game to a group made entirely of new players, which saves time as I can't help all players one-on-one at once, and stops them doing dumb things like making 12 Strength fighters with the Run feat.
I don't like to pre-generate my players' characters. That's part of the fun for them. What I will do, at least when I'm planning adventures in advance or using pre-written, is to encourage them to pick a good mix of characters even if nobody wants to play the cleric, and encourage them to stick with their characters throughout the campaign.
I might pre-generate characters if I was teaching the game to a group made entirely of new players, which saves time as I can't help all players one-on-one at once, and stops them doing dumb things like making 12 Strength fighters with the Run feat.
Personally, I've always found that creating the character is almost as much fun as playing them. It's more fun, in some cases. If I were handed a character sheet, even if it were the coolest concept ever, I'd feel railroaded and cheated. I might play it and have fun, but the irritation would hang out and nag at the back of my mind. I've always figured that if the DM wants me to play a certain type of character, he should say so. Truth is, I usually ask. I don't mind being asked to make a melee type, or even being asked to make an Elven Barbarian. Being told "you are an elven barbarian, these are your abilities, skills, feats, possessions, personality, astrological sign, history, and favorite color" is just plain annoying.
As far as pre-gen characters for a whole group of new players... I thought about doing that, as I'm going to be running a group of new players at some point in the next couple-few weeks, but then I thought "wait a minute... if, my first game, the DM had handed me a human fighter because I was new, I'd have been pissed." And I figure that the character creation process is an important chance to learn your way around the character sheet.
And if they really want to make a halfling fighter with a strength of 8 and the run feat, well, that's their choice. Half-Orc Wizards with negative intelligence modifiers and Power Attack, though, are right out, along with venerable gnome paladins.
Half-Orc Wizards with negative intelligence modifiers and Power Attack, though, are right out, along with venerable gnome paladins.
Dangit! Now I have to start ALL over!