OK - so I am about to start the Age of Worms and am having preliminary chats with the players, when the super-munchkin of the group announces that he really wants to play a psi-warrior thri-keen!!!
This is bad on several levels. The worst parts though are:
1) Thrikeen are +2 ECL and +2 monster level. I could use a mix of the non-adult version of race and negative ECLs - but it would be a mess
2) Having a huge insect wondering about will make any social interaction hard work.
3) I am running this in FR, Daggerford. Why on earth would a thri-keen be in Daggerford? And doing what?
Question: Should I let the player go for it? How could I possibly incorporate it into the background? Any advice would be gladly recieved.
OK - so I am about to start the Age of Worms and am having preliminary chats with the players, when the super-munchkin of the group announces that he really wants to play a psi-warrior thri-keen!!!
This is bad on several levels. The worst parts though are:
1) Thrikeen are +2 ECL and +2 monster level. I could use a mix of the non-adult version of race and negative ECLs - but it would be a mess
2) Having a huge insect wondering about will make any social interaction hard work.
3) I am running this in FR, Daggerford. Why on earth would a thri-keen be in Daggerford? And doing what?Question: Should I let the player go for it? How could I possibly incorporate it into the background? Any advice would be gladly recieved.
1) Yeah, that sorta sucks
2) Warn the character to expect persecution for his race, playing a non-standard race is apt to have that effect.3) Tell the player that if he(?) really wants to play this character that you expect a detailed character history explaining this point.
- Ashavan
Question: Should I let the player go for it?...
No.
Ask him to answer your questions: why is it in Daggerford? More importantly, why would the locals (or even the other PCs) not break out a can of Raid and exterminate it? There's no answer for that. If he continues to insist, play it out and let him die three minutes into the campaign.
Just say no to munchkins.
Jack
munchkin-stomping DM
I wouldn't automatically say no, but I think the DM has the right to say "sorry" to any nonstandard race.
If you were running a wilderness campaign, a desert campaign, or had cities in mind where an insect race like Thi-kreen might actually thrive, then it would be cool. Where is your campaign set? Is there any way you could add some history to your campaign world to make the Thri-Kreen more viable? Like Ashavan said, a very good background from the player may help you find a way to include the race, and add role-playing opportunities.
PS I'm not averse to players being creative with the sort of character they want to play. But they need to play the game at the established starting level (I upped it to 2nd level for AoW, because it's deadly and it gives the players the option of going for an ECL 2 creature if they want).
They also need to be prepared to roleplay appropriately in this roleplaying game. Alien monsters are going to end up on the receiving end of a bunch of pitchforks.
Jack
when the super-munchkin of the group announces that he really wants to play a psi-warrior thri-keen!!!
I'm a firm believer that in order for the game to be fun you have to set limits. In my campaign those limits were no monster levels, no creatures with an ECL +2 or higer, and any ECL +1 required DM approval. I ended up with one Aasimar Cleric, everyone else took PHB classes.
1) Thrikeen are +2 ECL and +2 monster level.
If your inclined to allow it do it in the rules. At higher levels the ECL's really do kind of level the playing field when the character starts to fall behind in levels. In addition his monster levels are further going to hamper his psi-abilities pushin him further behind.
3) I am running this in FR, Daggerford. Why on earth would a thri-keen be in Daggerford? And doing what?
Main attraction at Zalamandra's Emporium. ne of the mine managers had brought it in as a slave but Zalamandra purchased his contract to use as a side show act. Unlike the mine manager, Zalamandra doesn't believe if true slavery and has kept him as an indentured servant until he could work off the cost of payment. His year (or whatever) is up and he has just been released as a free person. Most of the residents in town have seen him at the freak show, and while most deffiently think he's creepy, he isn't viewed as a threat and people just avoid him, not persecute him.
Question: Should I let the player go for it?
I wouldn't, but this isn't me. You've all ready described him as the "super munchkin", if you don't think you can handle it (especially when he takes multi-attack feat) don't allow it. If you think it's more important that he plays what he likes, teh go for it. You can always kill him later :)
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The thri-kreen has been sent by his people to search out for a specific psionic-item reputed to belong to Pertinent NPC Name A who was buried in the hills around Daggerford. This item isn't related to the AoW (or it could be). When the Free City Trio begins to hint about the Stirgenest Cairn, the thri-kreen ponders if this is where he should look as well. Have the PC experience the extreme prejudice of the Free City Trio ("I've squished bigger bugs than you when I earned this!", Auric boasts as his thumbs his gaudy belt) and feel alienated in Daggerford in general. This opens an opportunity for the DM to have one of the other PCs have a more "liberal" opinion of sentient creatures and to invite the thri-kreen to aid their search of the Whispering Cairn.
Playing a non-standard PC race isn't "munchkin", per se. Thri-kreen were pretty standard in some past D&D settings; perhaps this player is paying homage to Dark Sun. Perhaps I give your player too much credit. ::smirk::
Put the impetus on the player to provide the details to make the thri-kreen's prescence in Daggerford/Diamond Lake as logical as possible. If the player cannot do this, simply state "Ixnay on the bug, toots". If you like the idea of a thri-kreen in the game, give the player a nudge with some ideas (like those above). You may be surprised by the collective synergy of creativity as the two of you create a memorable character back story that makes the thought of the thri-kreen not being part of the party hard to imagine.
Now, if the player wants to play a drow with two scimitars, feel free to declare "munchkin". ::wink::
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Well, here's my two bits.
When my players say "I want to play a kobold", or "I want to play a Ghaele Eladrin", they want a fun character, but it twinges my brain -- not so much in as it is power gaming, but it offends my sensibilities at attempting to create a logically consistant world. I would have a very hard time accepting a thri-kreen in Daggerford. Here is what I would do.
a) Tell the players what limit you are willing to accept in EL (say, +2, or given your posts, +1). I've told my players I'll accept anything up to a +2 EL and any race that can buy tea from a tea shop in Escalant. If you aren't comfortable with an EL adjusted race, break it out like Savage Species to be a graduated race (if you need help, let me know, I'd be glad to do it for you for the Thri-Kreen).
b) Warn players in advance that they may suffer persecution. My players (playing SCAP) include someone playing a half-dragon. I allowed it after he gave me a good backstory, and I have less educated NPCs refer to him as a "lizardman", which grates on his nerves. Also, the bad guys have no problem keeping tabs on the adventuring group wandering around with someone so obvious. My half-dragon player wanted to originally play a kobold. I told him in no uncertain terms that he could, but no one would take him seriously -- not even if he was a 20th level fighter kobold. He would be subject to mockery and racial bias.
c) Let your internally consistant world deal with the thri-kreen appropriately. Be obvious and honest with the players as you do it. Make him make diplomacy or gather information checks at -4 due to his race. Have shopkeepers turn him away. Have small children start crying when he walks by. He'll get the point.
Does any of this help?
Pariah and Rexx bot gave you decent backstories the player could flesh out to explain why a bug-like creature is in Daggerford.
If you were going to allow it (and it's a big if), what you need to do is come up with a racial level progression for the character. Basically, if it's got 2 HD and a +2 LA, you make up a little 4 level class. Levels one and three, he'll gain a racial hit die, and everything associated with those (hit points, BAB, saves, skills, and so on). At levels 2 and 4, he'll gain half the abilities of being the race. For example, if the race gets +4 CON, +6 STR, and a spell like ability 3 times per day, I might break it down like this:
Level 2: +2 Con, +2 Str, Spell Like Ability 1/day
Level 4: +2 Con, +4 Str, Spell Like Ability 3/day
The trick is to evenly split the abilities between the two levels so that it somewhat balances out.
I'm still running SCAP, so I haven't even perused the AoW material yet.
That said, assuming that AoW starts at 1st level, you could say 'No' to the munchkin based simply on starting ACL; if the character's ACL is too high, it just wouldn't be balanced - no DM 'final word' necessary.
Players who scratch, claw and complain their way to every possible advantage in the game usually get one of two responses from me:
- I tell them, "Suck it up or there's the door - I have a waiting list of players that is begging to get shorter."
- I give them exactly what they want, and entertain the game group by making them regret it.
M
Cool - I love forums where you get a quick reply.
Lots of great ideas and advice. The chap in question is not a great player - his previous characters have been a nightmare to run. He is persistantly bugging for some new buff or modification to the rules. Ugh - nag nag nag....
Anyhow - I guess I have always been a touchy feely kinda DM where I let the players play whatever they want knowing that they will not abuse my good faith. Not so this current group. Another chap wants to play a Drow - not a problem, he will start with a few negatives, come up with a good backstory and will *role-play* it well. The thrikeen chap is in it for a big kick ass psionic character.
So I guess I will have to just lay down the law. Part of my problem is that I am completely new to FR, and do not have time for extensive preparation or modification. I will be running the modules as they come, and only reading those bits of the FR source books that I need to.
But I do like the "must be able to buy a cup of tea" proviso. That would rule out the more ridiculous character races.
I shall keep you all informed....
Thanks again
If you were going to allow it (and it's a big if), what you need to do is come up with a racial level progression for the character.
I wholeheartedly agree with Z here. Doing this will answer another burning question: Is the player asking for this race due to roleplaying reasons or munchkin reasons.
Most munchkins won't pay the price of a savage progression and will look elsewhere when you explain that he'll be 5th level by the time he gets his first class level.
Lots of great ideas and advice. The chap in question is not a great player - his previous characters have been a nightmare to run. He is persistantly bugging for some new buff or modification to the rules. Ugh - nag nag nag....Anyhow - I guess I have always been a touchy feely kinda DM where I let the players play whatever they want knowing that they will not abuse my good faith. ~
I USED to be a touchy-feely DM who would go out of his way to keep the players alive...
...that was a long time ago.
Nagging for rules exceptions and special tweaks will earn a quick and firm "No." I had a couple of players like that in my group, too...
...fortunately, they are no longer in the group.
M
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If you were going to allow it (and it's a big if), what you need to do is come up with a racial level progression for the character.I wholeheartedly agree with Z here. Doing this will answer another burning question: Is the player asking for this race due to roleplaying reasons or munchkin reasons.
Most munchkins won't pay the price of a savage progression and will look elsewhere when you explain that he'll be 5th level by the time he gets his first class level.
Aymen brutha. I have a local player who 'want to play a half giant...they don't get much...only Level Adjust +1'...that damn race is so broke...should leave the half-giants and bugs on Athas where they belong. Of course this is the same player who had a half-ogre in shackled city...he jsut found that the half-giant is even better, all the benefits and still 'medium sized when it counts'
Just tell him no.
I personally require all my Players to choose starting character races out of the PHB. Sometimes later I'll let them bring in a oddball character race. but if they can't have fun with out being a munchkin, I don't want them at my table.
Show this punk how un fair it is for him to run such a munched out character, and then give him the choice of the PHB or the door.
Munchkins only enter the game if you the DM allow it.
ASEO out
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Glad you like my Tea Shop proviso.
I'd rather not tell my players no .. in fact, I've previously been a DM who tells them constantly "no". No, you can't buy a drow house insignia. No, you can't play a kobold. No, you can't have a spell out of Dragon Magazine.
Something I've done since I've started running the SCAP (which I'm still in) was try to say "no" much less. What I've done is been honest with the PCs - I personally think the potion capsules on the end of weapons from Complete Adventurer is very, very dorky. But who's to say someone wasn't a dorky inventor? Rather than say "no", I'll let them have it with a DC 30-35 Gather Information Check. That way I'm giving a (remote) chance for players to have wierd things and still satisfy my internally consistent world.
The other thing I've done (with the Warlock class, unique magic items, etc) is allowed things on a "trial basis". For example, let the PC have the race/class/spell for an adventure, and agree to review it at the end of the adventure. If it isn't working, ask the player to retire the PC, or pick a different spell, or refund them the money they spent on the magic item. After all, maybe a Thri-Kreen isn't *so* bad ... (but it probably is ...).
I can't believe everyone is so quick to shut down monstrous races. I try to entice my players with playable monsters and I never get any takers beyond the occasional Aasimar. I do break monsters down into levels based on ECL and find that the biggest deterent is the levels that don't get HD, Skills, Feats etc. I am careful to balance the races to avoid frontloading and encourage players to take all or most of the racial levels before they get the "good stuff" a munchkin would be after. As was said earlier, doing this will discourage the munchkin leaving the roleplayers to play the odd races as it should be. The worst part is that when I'm a player I never get to play a monster : (
I currently have a player in my group playing a doppleganger, and a few nonstandard races from the Races books and Eberron. What really matters is whether the player is choosing this race for roleplaying reasons or munchkin/power gaming reasons. They're doing in for roleplaying reasons, or that it is an interesting choice.
If your player is doing it for munchkin reasons, then watch out, especially if the rest of your group aren't munchkins. (At one point I had one group of 6 players wanting to all play gestalt characters. Yea, roleplaying reason... really.) I had someone in a group whose only desire is the absolutely most powerful wizard they could. (Can you say 512 points of wandering damage per round?) It got to the point where the player had to be asked to leave the group.
Frankly, munchkins can be controlled, but if this one can't be controlled, you have problems. I wish you luck.
Squid
I can't believe everyone is so quick to shut down monstrous races. I try to entice my players with playable monsters and I never get any takers beyond the occasional Aasimar. I do break monsters down into levels based on ECL and find that the biggest deterent is the levels that don't get HD, Skills, Feats etc. I am careful to balance the races to avoid frontloading and encourage players to take all or most of the racial levels before they get the "good stuff" a munchkin would be after. As was said earlier, doing this will discourage the munchkin leaving the roleplayers to play the odd races as it should be. The worst part is that when I'm a player I never get to play a monster : (
Oh, I allow monster characters all the time...as long as their ECL matches that of the party (or less).
Of course, the munchkin, er, monster is STILL subject to DM approval. If I say no, it's no.
M
Oh, I allow monster characters all the time...as long as their ECL matches that of the party (or less).
Of course, the munchkin, er, monster is STILL subject to DM approval. If I say no, it's no.
M
I use a similar system, though mine is pretty formalized. Basically I have set out what races and classes are allowed in my world and under what restrictions. But as my players make a new level I send them an update saying X race and Y class are now available and you may choose them at your discretion. That way the races stay balanced with the party and the players are always getting new options. Strangly this seems to excite them much more then a wide open door system were everything is available at start. My announcments always generate a flurry of activity on the listmail between the players comparing and contrasting the new options versus what they can already take.
For me its like the best of both worlds - I get to keep total control of what is and is not allowed and yet I get a wave of excitement from the players as the new options are unvieled.
Question: Should I let the player go for it?
No. He should probably find a new group.
I would let him do it but tell my players, himself included that it will be a pain for them until they can disguise him some way.
Like the locals get out the torches and start grabbing spears to defent themselves from the monster pain. The first few bits in town he will probably end up hiding out on the fringes getting his own wandering monsters, etc.... Until of course they figure out a way to bring him into town, i.e. in the covered wagon and then sneaking about.
Sometimes these added difficulties can prove to be fun and tense because it creates tension between the PCs and the good aligned NPCs who would normally support them.
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You might tell him that you will allow it at a later level (when the ECL is more fitting). I obviously love the Thri-kreen, but starting one off in Diamond Lake would be clunky in the extreme. Have him start off with a more normal character then retire/kill him off when you get the the Free City (work that out with the player). The Thri-kreen could be another gladiator in the arena and get in with the party there.
Just to pipe in, when my players were making their characters for AoW, some expressed interest in monster races and templates. I laid down very, very lenient restrictions and said, "Your making characters with one class level, but their effective character level can be higher. No evil alignments or races that have to be evil. Same for templates. You can pick spells from the following books..."
And no one abused it. Maybe I'm blessed or those prayers to Tymora have paid off. The highest ECL in the group is +1 - there's a Draconic human (Draconomicon) yet to be introduced and a Forest Gnome (Races of Faerûn) who's pretty comical.
One player got rather creative with his characters and used Unearthed Arcana (or is it Arcana Unearthed) to opt out of having a familiar for his good-aligned Necromancer, and to instead be followed around by a skeleton servant. It really creeps out the group's cleric which is amusing to us all.
Unfortunately I am not in the position to let players go! I have 4 players and getting them in the same place on the same day was a Herculean task.
Anyhow - I have made it all quite clear the problems he is making. The biggest I can see is why the hell would a bunch of first level misfits (i.e. the other players) want to hang out with a freaky insect.
We shall see what he says.....
You might tell him that you will allow it at a later level (when the ECL is more fitting). [cut] Have him start off with a more normal character then retire/kill him off when you get the the Free City (work that out with the player). The Thri-kreen could be another gladiator in the arena and get in with the party there.
Oh, actually I'm going to have to change my vote, I like this idea... Make him play something slightly more normal to start, have him replaced by the doppleganger. I'm betting this player will jump at the chance to backstab the party, and when you get to the point of revealing the fact he's a doppleganger, give the player the choice if he still wants the Thri-kreen. He may have gotten attached to his 'normal' character and may opt to skip the Thri-kreen saving you the trouble of dealing with it, and if not have the Dopplegangers finish off the real one in front of the players and then give him his thri-kreen, because at this level it will probably be significantly less disruptive.
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Not a bad thought... swap in Thri-kreen around level 4 and have the other character retire. I've never seen it in my own campaigns, but I have heard of players discontinuing characters purely for plot/RP reasons (getting married and settled down/ primary task that brought them to the group is ended and they would not get involved with any other grand arcs). It does produce a host of recurrent (and well-detailed) NPCs and I think might have some value in your game.
Verdict: Tell him he can have the bug @ 4th level, but make another interesting character non-ECL character to play for now.
Don't know how experienced you are, Host of Angels, but let me tell you that munchkins are a major pain. Frankly, now I'm enforcing a no non-PHB races except for things like kobolds or hobgoblins, or things chosen for role-playing. If your munchkin player dosen't fit in with the other groups likes in terms of gaming, tell him to find a new group. If your whole group likes RPing except one, don't let one person ruin it for all of you.
Good luck!
WaterdhavianFlapjack
If I were to allow the thri-kreen as a player race it would look something like this (quick conversion without too much metagame thought).
Thri-Kreen racial class
Medium size
-2 Int, -4 Cha
Base Speed 40
Multiple limbs
Darkvision
Weapon familiarity gythka and chatkcha
favored class ranger
Immune to sleep
+4 racial bonus to hide checks in sand
Level HD BAB F R W Skill Special
1 1d8 +1 +0 +2 +2 (2+int)4 natural attack 4claws, 1 bite, naturally psionic 1, psi-like ability chameleon, know direction and location.
2 1d8 +1 +0 +2 +2 - +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor, leap
3 2d8 +2 +0 +3 +3 2+int +1 natural armor,poison
4 2d8 +2 +0 +3 +3 - +2 Str, +2 Dex, +1 natural armor, psi-like ability greater concealing amorpha, metaphsical claw..
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but starting one off in Diamond Lake would be clunky in the extreme.
I don't know...I told a few players if they are intrested in unusual PC's, there's a freak show at the Emporium...who knows what kind of freaks are running about in there....I mena, what the hell, talking Daggits, golum-like Tom....
Ah - you guys....
You read my mind. On my way home last night I decided to offer the player a take it or leave it option that goes like this:
I make up thri-keen racial levels - just like T-Bone has already done for me :). I understand that it is possible to drop some of psionic special abilities to get a +1 ECL race. That, plus the 2 monster levels gives me a 3 level thri-keen class.
The player starts as a juvenile thri-keen. I will insist that he takes a level of the thri-keen at 2nd or first. There after he must take the second class level by 8th level and the last by 16th. This way he gets to develop his chosen class.
OK something like that will deal with the mechanics. Any help with the racial levels would be great - I don't actually have either the psionics book or Savage races.
To fit the bug into the party. I will insist he gives the character at least above average wis and cha. He works as part of the freak show. However, he has befriended one of the other PCs who works at the Emporium. When the plot to explore the cairn is hatched, this PC springs the Thri-keen from the freak show. On their return (succesful, and laden with loot) they will need to do some fast talking to get themselves out of trouble - after all the Emporium is going to have the party instantly arrested for stealing a valuable exhibit. I figure they can get off the hook by buying the Thri-keen's freedom.
Crucial to this plan is that the Thri-keen can gain the confidence of the party by showing how useful he is and that he is smart enough to at least relate to the rest of teh party. They will need to lead him around town on a chain and are going to get some mighty funny looks when they try to get into Waterdeep....
What do you lot think? Plausable?
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OK something like that will deal with the mechanics. Any help with the racial levels would be great - I don't actually have either the psionics book or Savage races.
Savage Species isn't much of a loss - it basically says to split the abilities between the levels in as fair and sensible a way as possible.
I'd be wary about allowing psionic characters without owning the Expanded Psionics Handbook, however. (Apologies if you are an expert in psionics who happens not to have the book!)
If the player is a true munchkin, watch out for him "not realising" that psychic warriors get cleric BAB and hit dice, not fighter ones.
Also keep an eye on the power points - unless specifically built to maximise power points, psychic warriors get hardly any. And, as with all psionic munchkins, make sure he sticks to the limits for augmenting powers.
I'd also make a note of which of his feats (if any) require being psionically focused, since its a move action (and a concentration check) to re-focus after using them.
hmmm - I know what you mean about psionics. I'm not that keen on them and I don't own the book. Fortunately the player is so disorganised he forgets most of the powers and buffs he has avilable to him. He just likes making awkward characters...
hmmm - I know what you mean about psionics. I'm not that keen on them and I don't own the book. Fortunately the player is so disorganised he forgets most of the powers and buffs he has avilable to him. He just likes making awkward characters...
Use the SRD to check up on whats actually needed. As has been pointed out the Psychic Warrior is not that phenominal in terms of power points or combat. More like half descent with both capabilities.
It may just be me but I can't find the Thri-keen in the SRD for the Expanded Psionics book. How come it is not OGL?
OK - so I am about to start the Age of Worms and am having preliminary chats with the players, when the super-munchkin of the group announces that he really wants to play a psi-warrior thri-keen!!!
Okay. There is nothing inherently wrong with playing a Thri-Kreen. However, there are several things you mention that are troubling.
This is bad on several levels. The worst parts though are:
1) Thrikeen are +2 ECL and +2 monster level. I could use a mix of the non-adult version of race and negative ECLs - but it would be a mess
It would not be too difficult to use the Savage Species progression, actually. It is pretty well laid out.
2) Having a huge insect wondering about will make any social interaction hard work.
Yes. Yes, it would. This is a job for a really good roleplayer. However, you have stated that this fellow is not one. That sounds like a recipe for frustration.
3) I am running this in FR, Daggerford. Why on earth would a thri-keen be in Daggerford? And doing what?
Pariah's idea about Zalamandra's Gallery of Science in the Emporium is great. In fact, this character could replace Shag Solomon's role in the Gallery (weird monster with manners).
The chap in question is not a great player - his previous characters have been a nightmare to run. He is persistantly bugging for some new buff or modification to the rules. Ugh - nag nag nag....
...and you know that this character will be the same, correct? Also, are you used to running psionics? Are you prepared for the implications? This fellow sounds like he needs a GM who knows how to set hard limits and stick to them.
Anyhow - I guess I have always been a touchy feely kinda DM where I let the players play whatever they want knowing that they will not abuse my good faith.
I am the same way. However, there are limits. For example, I am running this game using Iron Heroes and Elements of Magic in the Greyhawk setting. I do not want non-humans to be very common, and there are not many magic items around. One of my players wanted a Bariaur character. That would normally be fine, as this player is excellent with roleplaying unusual characters. However, it does not fit the feel of the setting much. He ended up with a Dwarf (which I am treating as somewhat unusual, anyway). It is working quite nicely.
Not so this current group. Another chap wants to play a Drow - not a problem, he will start with a few negatives, come up with a good backstory and will *role-play* it well.
Well, in Faerun, every other character is a Drow, right?
The thrikeen chap is in it for a big kick ass psionic character.
There is nothing inherently wrong with that desire. However, when such is disruptive to the game as a whole, it should be shut down.
So I guess I will have to just lay down the law.
From your description of the situation, I think that is a good call.
Part of my problem is that I am completely new to FR, and do not have time for extensive preparation or modification. I will be running the modules as they come, and only reading those bits of the FR source books that I need to.
Personally, I think Greyhawk is a better idea, with your limitations of time. The Adventure Path is designed with that setting in mind, primarily.
But I do like the "must be able to buy a cup of tea" proviso. That would rule out the more ridiculous character races.
Yes, but sometimes a good roleplayer can pull it off, and pull it off well. You just need to know your players.
Question: Should I let the player go for it?
If he is consistently a disruption, you may have to. However, I think setting reasonable limits is a better solution in most cases.
MI
The player starts as a juvenile thri-keen. I will insist that he takes a level of the thri-keen at 2nd or first. There after he must take the second class level by 8th level and the last by 16th. This way he gets to develop his chosen class.
If you honestly would prefer he didn't play this race, you could strictly enforce the Savage Species rule about monster races as classes: you cannot multiclass out of a monster racial class until you have completed the ENTIRE level progression. This would mean the player would have to spend his first three levels just developing his powers as a Thri-Kreen. Of course, being the DM you have every right to break that up over his entire career as you wish, but strictly interpreting that rule might make him give another long, hard thought to this idea. Then, if he's still willing to go for it... then there's no real reason not to allow it, so long as he gives you good story reasons (many of which have been posed on this thread) as to why the creature is in DL. Hope that helps in some way. Happy Gaming!
I realize this is slightly off topic, but I hope that you'll forgive me. My playing days (D&D) were all concentrated in the 80s, so I haven't played any 2e or 3/3.5e yet--sitting in front of people.
When did this fascination with playing non-standard races come along? My friends and I were quite content to work within the confines of the PHB. In fact, there was quite a ruckus when one of the players lost his wizard (in _Master of the Desert Nomads_) and wanted to use a character class from Dragon Magazine (The Psionicist).
Ultimately, once we were all sure the character wasn't an uber-class, we allowed it in. I could just imagine what would have happened if I had expressed any desire to play a minotaur.
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If you honestly would prefer he didn't play this race, you could strictly enforce the Savage Species rule about monster races as classes: you cannot multiclass out of a monster racial class until you have completed the ENTIRE level progression. This would mean the player would have to spend his first three levels just developing his powers as a Thri-Kreen. Of course, being the DM you have every right to break that up over his entire career as you wish, but strictly interpreting that rule might make him give another long, hard thought to this idea. Then, if he's still willing to go for it... then there's no real reason not to allow it, so long as he gives you good story reasons (many of which have been posed on this thread) as to why the creature is in DL. Hope that helps in some way. Happy Gaming!
Although, in terms of 'realism' I think HoA would be right to stagger the progression of 'species' levels. He is explaining it as the Thri-Kreen being a juvenile, so why force it go grow up at an accellerated rate? Having him develope the species levels while mixed with class progression would probably make better sense (at least from an aesthetics view-point). This is one area where I would say the rules are good guidelines and implement them part-way. Just my thought on the topic.
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When did this fascination with playing non-standard races come along?
Well, speaking for myself, as soon as I started playing back in the 80s! I'm very happy to play standard races and classes...I think that they give a huge range of possiblities that can be explored. But that doesn't mean I won't leap at the chance to try something a little more exotic if the chance presents itself. Personally, I want to try to figure out as many mind-sets and cultures as I can while I play. Granted, DMing gives me that, but normally just in smaller chunks. Following a 'life-long' progression as a player gives different kinds of rewards. The game offers endless variety, why not use it?
I realize this is slightly off topic, but I hope that you'll forgive me. My playing days (D&D) were all concentrated in the 80s, so I haven't played any 2e or 3/3.5e yet--sitting in front of people.
When did this fascination with playing non-standard races come along? My friends and I were quite content to work within the confines of the PHB. In fact, there was quite a ruckus when one of the players lost his wizard (in _Master of the Desert Nomads_) and wanted to use a character class from Dragon Magazine (The Psionicist).
Ultimately, once we were all sure the character wasn't an uber-class, we allowed it in. I could just imagine what would have happened if I had expressed any desire to play a minotaur.
Mainly when they decided to start introducing rules for doing so (Level Adjusment and Effective Character Level). I wish they had just left these with the more normal races, such as orcs and aasimars, and some more with "cohort" ECL. But really, it's the players. Some are fine with PHB stuff, others want to expand (for various, and many poor, reasons). Try to avoid stressing the unlimited freedom of the game when pitching it to your friends, which was one of my mistakes, and you won't have so many gnoll werebear samuari whatevers running around.
I personally require all my Players to choose starting character races out of the PHB. Sometimes later I'll let them bring in a oddball character race. but if they can't have fun with out being a munchkin, I don't want them at my table.
Munchkins only enter the game if you the DM allow it.ASEO out
Well said, I offered to let a player join my game about 2 weeks back and got the response "Great, I have this half-dragon bladesinger made up...." after I had just told him that the party is around 3rd level. :(
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When I'm starting a new campaign i nearly always give limitations regarding races and classes.
I never had a player that complained about the restrictions.
Sometimes we argued about allowing certain races, but as a DM i alwyas have the final word and when i think something won't fit into the mood of the campaign or could be trouble in another way, it was always accepted.
Okay, i won't do things like not allowing half of the PHB races or similar harsh restrictions, so my players still have a wide variety to chose from (unless we are playing a very special-themed campaign).
I think Host of Angels gave his players a really wide variety with allowing ECL +2 creatures. The possibility for cool character-concepts is nearly endless within these limits.
So why does it have to be a Thri-Kreen Psychic Warrior, if it bothers the DM?
Hell, there'd be so much else to chose from.
I'd offer him some alternatives to show him, that there is so much else to choose from, but I wouldn't allow the Thri-Kreen.
If the players sees that the DM is allowing him a character he normally wouldn't like to be added to the party, it is possible, that he trys to gain other benefits out of the DM's generous behaviour.
This could lead to trouble in the gaming group, especially with the players that sticked to PHB races.
Maybe they'd like to get their share of "exceptions" in form of an additional magic item or something in that manner.
I wouldn't let something like this endanger your campaign.
If the player only wants to play a Thri Kreen Psychic Warrior and absolutly nothing else, than i'd assume that he's not that interested to play in this campaign.
I myself was always more than willing to accept restrictions etc. that ensure that i'll have a cool campaign with a DM that finds the ideal conditions to deliver great adventures.
Sorry for my bad english, its not my native language. I hope you get what i mean...:)
Although, in terms of 'realism' I think HoA would be right to stagger the progression of 'species' levels. He is explaining it as the Thri-Kreen being a juvenile, so why force it go grow up at an accellerated rate? Having him develope the species levels while mixed with class progression would probably make better sense (at least from an aesthetics view-point). This is one area where I would say the rules are good guidelines and implement them part-way. Just my thought on the topic.
I agree with you as to the realism aspect of staggering the levels. Primarily, I think the restriction against multiclassing was implemented in order to keep people from "cherry picking" and just taking a few levels in Ogre Mage or Troll or what have you in order to get regeneration and the Giant race type, etc, forcing a player to commit to several levels worth of play just to develop the base powers of a particular race. The fact that enforcing that stipulation with this particular player might either turn him away from what could possibly be a disruptive character choice or ensure that he at least doesn't disrupt the party's balance is just an added benefit. However, I can very easily see how it could be just as effective, in terms of game balance and realism, to stagger the levels so long as the player must, at very specific points in his career, finish the entire racial class progression. It just doesn't do as much to make the choice of a Thri-Kreen any less appealing.
I realize this is slightly off topic, but I hope that you'll forgive me. My playing days (D&D) were all concentrated in the 80s, so I haven't played any 2e or 3/3.5e yet--sitting in front of people.
When did this fascination with playing non-standard races come along?
Right around 1E.
Yes, I have a minotaur PC.
MI
It may just be me but I can't find the Thri-keen in the SRD for the Expanded Psionics book. How come it is not OGL?
Hmm -- Your right, its not OGL. OK umm...make your player bring you his copy of Complete Psionics andwrite down the race information. That should get you over this hump - his powers are likely in the SRD.
OK - so I presented him with my plan, without commiting myself to details of the mechanics to see if he would go for it. And he whined and b&#&~ed. Ugh. This is starting to p*** me off. In the 26 years I have been playing I have never had this sort of issue come up. I guess in my youth I was happy to lay down the law and throw my DM weight about. I hoped that a mature approach to games inspires others to follow suit. Apparently not so.
His main beef is now "why do I have to take the 2 monster levels?" For which I don't have a great answer. I *could* re-jigg the race to make it just +1 or +2 ECL and skip the monster levels. But can you seperate out the monster levels from the ECL? Is a monster level just HD, BAB and saves?
P.S. The other players are so far: Drow rogue or mage (TBA), a halfling druid and a human fighter. I could just kiss the last two players! Except one is a hairy Spaniard and our beards would lock, nasty.
His main beef is now "why do I have to take the 2 monster levels?" For which I don't have a great answer. I *could* re-jigg the race to make it just +1 or +2 ECL and skip the monster levels. But can you seperate out the monster levels from the ECL? Is a monster level just HD, BAB and saves?
He has to take the monster levels to maintain balance in the campaign. If he started as a full thri-kreen he would ba a 2HD character with five attacks that is immune to any spell that affects only humanoids has a BAB of +2 a +3 natural armor great ability bonuses with 40 ft. movement and psionics that allow him a magical weapon and miss chance plus the ability to leap with a +30 bonus on jump checks. Oh he also gets to start with a power point allowing him to take psionic feats requiring psionic focus. Put that next to a halfling druid and weigh the balance. The whole point of breaking a monster into levels is to maintain balance, you have a great reason for making him take the monster levels.
P.S. The other players are so far: Drow rogue or mage (TBA), a halfling druid and a human fighter.
Not to ruin anyone's fun but a drow has a +2 level adjustment also. If I were in your DM seat I would hold all level adjusted classes to the same dictum to be fair.
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Well put, T-Bone. My last campaign consisted of 2 munckins in a five person group... psionics became hellish when those two were around. We all did have fun, but I felt like I was constantly battling to maintain balance and fun (I can't tell you the last time an EL of even one above their level was a remote challenge...). *Shrug* So now I'm planning a half-magic campaign, in all likelihood a knee-jerk reaction to their constant magical munchkinism.
My advice? Get this guy in line- throw a bit of DM weight and explain to him that if he wants to be in your game, then he needs to abide by the rules of the DM, esp. when they are based on the basic guidleines of the game {These aren't your personal house rules, after all, they are there to make sure everyone has fun..not just the Thri-kreen}
I had a small group as well, so I know how hard it is to find more players, but you'll lose the rest of them (or the sense of challenge and fun in your game) if you let munchkinism take root. Sorry if I come off dire and doomsaying, but I do feel that a campaign loses its vitality if the challenge is gone.