This is probably something that’s been answered a million times, but something that’s troubling me none the less. When a character loses a level (either trough level drain or raise dead or whatever) how do you go about removing that level?
I usually don’t remember the exact skill point distribution, or number of hp’s gained. from one level to the next.
And what about when that character regains the lost level? Do you do the whole hp/skillpoint/feat choice all over again, or to you revert to the original (pre-level loss) stats
When a character loses a level (either trough level drain or raise dead or whatever) how do you go about removing that level?
Well, it depends on whether it's permanent or not...
I usually don’t remember the exact skill point distribution, or number of hp’s gained. from one level to the next.
Personally I have an Excel spreadsheet with my skill distribution for each level, mainly so I know what my overall plan is. That's because I usually plan my characters from level 1 to 20 beforehand.
If you use something like late HeroForge that application automatically keeps track on all your HP and skill increases per level.
And what about when that character regains the lost level? Do you do the whole hp/skillpoint/feat choice all over again, or to you revert to the original (pre-level loss) stats
I would let the character make the choice again. He might not even want to take the same class as before.
I keep track of each level because my players use a new sheet each time they increase their level. Therefore they only have to use their previous sheet if they lose a level.
Well, it depends on whether it's permanent or not...
It's permanent untill the character gains enough xp for a level increase. Which is going to be pretty soon if you ask me.
I keep track of each level because my players use a new sheet each time they increase their level. Therefore they only have to use their previous sheet if they lose a level.
Does this happen a lot in your games? a sheet per level... phew
I keep track of each level because my players use a new sheet each time they increase their level. Therefore they only have to use their previous sheet if they lose a level.
Does this happen a lot in your games? a sheet per level... phew
Well, it's more or less the same in my game, since I demand a digital character sheet from my pleyers, usually PDF.
I would just have the player remove a number of hit points equal to the mean (rounded down) for each HD lost plus Con. A wizard would lose 2 hp + Con while a fighter would lose 5 hp + Con. Feats like toughness, improved toughness and similar may come into play as well, of course.
Likewise, I would have the player remove a number of skill points equal to the number gained from the level lost. He would only be able to remove one skill point from a given skill, though (unless he removes points from all his skills and still have some to spare. If so, he starts over with what's left).
Whenever he gains a new level, he picks his new level the way any other character would do. The lost level is gone.
I realize that this may change the character somewhat from what he was before to what he will become after, especially if he loses and regains levels often, but I doubt it would be possible to abuse this in a deliberate way.
I just killed off one of my PC's last game session. *evil grin*
Poor lad had -17 hp with one hit to the chest by an unded minotaur. Class kill though. Anyway, there are two ways I go about this...
In this case, he was on the verge of gaining 2 levels for xp instead of one, so now I'll only let him gain one. (minus the point of con for death, mind you.)
In any other normal case, I'd have them deduct the point of con, roll a hit dice to see how many hp they lose, (if you don't know what they gained last level, fair's fair), and of course take away any level specific things like spells/feats/etc.
Though feats can get tricky, because it's like, what, you forgot how to evade because you died? ha ha! Maybe I'll have to re-think that one. hmm.
Anyway, at the very least I'd have them lose a point of Con and HP for the level they lost.
If they were close to a level up, I might consider just having them not get that level they almost attained until a bit later. Makes it easier than re-figuring out the math. Sort of like: "You were almost level nine, now you'll have to start over at just over eight because you died. Oh, and take off a point of Con." ;-)
- WC
In this case, he was on the verge of gaining 2 levels for xp instead of one, so now I'll only let him gain one. (minus the point of con for death, mind you.)
why a point for con? I Can't find that in da rules.
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Though feats can get tricky, because it's like, what, you forgot how to evade because you died? ha ha! Maybe I'll have to re-think that one. hmm.
Well, i think this one is a good rule, as long as the character doesn't get an additional feat because of dying.
Like when he was 8th level, dropped back to 7th and gets back to 8th...My players would develop suicidal tendencies...:)
In this case, he was on the verge of gaining 2 levels for xp instead of one, so now I'll only let him gain one. (minus the point of con for death, mind you.)why a point for con? I Can't find that in da rules.
It's probably old-school, but the DM I played with some 10 years ago would always make us subtract a point of Constitution each time you died. When you hit 0 Con, you couldn't ever be ressurected again. (and your saves lowered eventually too.)
Not sure if those rules carried over from 2.0, (or if they were even ever there, but that's what I've always played by.)
- WC
Any form of resurrection by magical means normally results in the subject locing a Con point, as well as (usually) a level (if a familiar is resurrected, it does not lose the Con point). I think that the True Resurrection spell is the only way to get back to life without these penalties, but it's either an 8th or 9th level cleric spell and the material components cost 25k gp.
In 3.0 or 3.5, making players lose a point of Con for each time they get killed is actually stacking the decks in favor of them getting killed again later.
They are more susceptible for poisons and diseases that take Con, possibly losing hit points and lowering Fortitude saves and in addition to the standard level loss and the loss of base attacks and saves, skills and other abilities.
And taking a hit dice *as well* as taking a point of Con just makes it less likely they succeed against the foes.
I guess what I'm saying is that game balance must be maintained, but penalizing without a logical dramatic reason is arbitrary and sometimes penalizes character development or weakens a possible good story.
The loss of a level is enough of a penalty, in my book, and one they can easily make up for given time and effort. I am a relatively creative GM, and I have always believed that I can (and I have) found more creative ways to penalize poor character decision-making than just hacking away at ability scores. In fact, sometimes it pays more to reward the poor character who dies with a little something "special"...
a sheet per level... phew
My players demand a new sheet at every level. They like having a nice history of their character's advancement. It's easy when you use a digital character sheet.
The one we use has a spot for hit points gained at each level, so it's easy to drop back a level if necessary. You can grab a copy of the sheet here:
Any form of resurrection by magical means normally results in the subject locing a Con point, as well as (usually) a level (if a familiar is resurrected, it does not lose the Con point).
Not according to the spell description of raise dead or resurection. And It's not in any rule I found.
Could it be a house rule of yours?
Right, here we go:
DMG 3.5, Page 41:
"Character Death"
"It happens... page 171 of PHB discusses all four resurrection types.. yada yada... The character's new XP total is midway between the minimum needed for his or her new level and the minimum needed for the next one. If the character was 1st level, he or she loses 2 points of Constitution instead of losing a level. This level loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any mortal spell, even wish or miracle."
So, I guess Con subtraction might be a bit mean for any level past 1st, but then, I'm nice to the players in other ways, like letting them get resurrected anyway when they normally wouldn't have been able to... *wink wink*
- WC
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Any form of resurrection by magical means normally results in the subject locing a Con point, as well as (usually) a level (if a familiar is resurrected, it does not lose the Con point).Not according to the spell description of raise dead or resurection. And It's not in any rule I found.
Could it be a house rule of yours?
No.
We still playing 3.0 but according to Players guide:
If you die and get raised you loose so much EP that your EP stands in the middle of the last level before.
Means if you are 4 Level and die you have after getting raised the EP of a 3.5 Level Charachter.
I dont have a PG at Hand but i will look on which site it stands if i get home.Kraschyn.
In second edition you lost a point of con for being raised. In 3.0 and 3.5 you only lose con if you were at first level when you bought it and were then raised. Personally, I take exp from the player equal to the amount required to make the last level, thus taking twice as long to gain a level. My computer does nothing in my game except print out character sheets and play music, I use a computer at work and have grown to hate doing spread sheets so, as a house rule i don't take hp, skill points, or con ( unless the character was first level) and just take the xp.
Level Loss is really cracked and broken in this edition, because it's either really easy to eliminate, or super impossible.
Example: Getting information from NPCs.
If you want to get information from a powerful NPC, DON'T kill him. You are more likely to have him make his will save.
Instead, subdue him with your final blow, and cast Enervation on him four or five times after removing all of his magic items.
Then he will tell you everything after a couple enchantment spells.
Does ANYONE have a way to stop the cheesy level loss method of information gathering? In parties of above 12th level, this is virtually foolproof.
Example: Getting information from NPCs.If you want to get information from a powerful NPC, DON'T kill him. You are more likely to have him make his will save.
Instead, subdue him with your final blow, and cast Enervation on him four or five times after removing all of his magic items.
Then he will tell you everything after a couple enchantment spells.
Does ANYONE have a way to stop the cheesy level loss method of information gathering? In parties of above 12th level, this is virtually foolproof.
Very inventive. . . :)
Ennervation doesn't stack with itself. See pg. 171 of the PH, near the end of the page. Pretty much any penalty-based spell like has a similar problem. If they give you guff about this, keep reading - the Ray of Enfeeblement example on 172 should clear up your problems. It's a necromantic ray spell that provides penalties, and it doesn't stack either. . . about as close an example as you could get to prove your point.
On the other hand, there's no reason why an NPC should always take information to the grave. If the party can sucessfully subdue an NPC of their level or greater, which is tougher than killing them, then maybe they deserve a little information. Personally, I love it when an NPC gets subdued and captured... interrigation and questioning provides some fo the best roleplaying experiences. You reveal the character, plot dangers, add threats, etc.
Plus, my personal favorite, the "My master is all-powerful, and despite my obscure death, I will live forever through him as he brings the world to flame and woe" speech, with all its delightful variations.
- Chris
Plus, my personal favorite, the "My master is all-powerful, and despite my obscure death, I will live forever through him as he brings the world to flame and woe" speech, with all its delightful variations.
After Enervation and Energy Drain, that's still 12 negative levels. The NPC still can't make the save, even if it didn't stack, and I hate to burst your bubble, but...
Enervation is not a bonus or penalty. It is a negative level. You can give people negative levels until they reach their negative character level, at which point, they die.
The spell specifically says "Negative Levels Stack."
Wait a sec... I think that's true for Energy Drain, but not Ennervation. Unfortuantely, I don't have the Player's Handbook with me for this so I can't check it out for sure, but I think that Ennervation has a duration, as well as rules for negative bonuses (-1/per level). You would effectively lose negative levels in terms of game mechanics, but it is NOT actually level drain that stacks.
If you are correct, then Ennervation is far too powerful. Ranged touch and no saving throw to lose 1d4 levels is okay, but not if you can use it multiple times on the same opponent.
Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Clarification: I now have a PH in front of me for this stuff, and I am not quite correct in what I said before. Enenrvation IS level drain, and you are right that the spell would stack with other negative levels accrued for whatever reason, including Energy Drain.
But the dispute remains: I still don't think multiple Ennervations stack with each other. I beleive that it would work like Ray of Enfeeblement example in chapter 10 of the PH.
When a character loses a level (either trough level drain or raise dead or whatever) how do you go about removing that level?
I usually don’t remember the exact skill point distribution, or number of hp’s gained. from one level to the next.
And what about when that character regains the lost level?
Here's an alternative for you if you and your group are comfortable veering from the rulebooks:
Because neither I nor my players like to whip out an abbacus or crunch calculus formulas during game play, we don't do level loss. For any creature / effect that would have an energy drain, we (meaning whoever is DMing in our group, there's three of us that rotate), tend to go with ability score drops instead. It's faster to deal with and the player can more easily track what the original ability score was. We allow "restoration" and similar magics to get the PC back to where he / she originally was, or make the drain temporary and regenerate back slowly over time. You get the same affect in terms of Player reaction without all the math.
I would just have the player remove a number of hit points equal to the mean (rounded down) for each HD lost plus Con. A wizard would lose 2 hp + Con while a fighter would lose 5 hp + Con. Feats like toughness, improved toughness and similar may come into play as well, of course.
I give all my PC's maximum hit points at each level, so this doesn't really matter.
I do know that my 1st level players absolutely HATE losing that constitution point; of course, they can always get it back when they gain an ability point later, but it's still a major bummer.
I got it. If the pcs are gettin cocky with there high lvlness, make a high-lvl cleric baddie, his own group of baddies, have them captuered, then have the cleric kill and res all the way back to the low lvls! mwhahahahaha
Instead, subdue him with your final blow, and cast Enervation on him four or five times after removing all of his magic items.
Then he will tell you everything after a couple enchantment spells.
Does ANYONE have a way to stop the cheesy level loss method of information gathering? In parties of above 12th level, this is virtually foolproof.
Sure. Misinformation. Have the Big-bad-evil-guy make sure to give the wrong information to his cronies. If you're fighting the BBEG in the final climax, it doesn't matter if they interrogate him after, really, since it's clean-up from there; but if it's a powerful underling, he might know some accurate things, but anything he doesn't need to know, the BBEG can fill with misinformation.
ie: If there's a glyph of warding at the doorway that is set to go off if a non-evil folk steps over it, the BBEG (with access to detect evil would be a dunce not to tell all of his evil followers that getting past the glyph requires them only to close their eyes as they walk by, whispering a prayer to a dark goddess).
Captured goon, interrogated, believes this to be true (hey, it works for him!) and players thereby gain misinformation and set off the trap, eyes closed, when they walk over it, confident they've outsmarted the villain.
Does ANYONE have a way to stop the cheesy level loss method of information gathering? In parties of above 12th level, this is virtually foolproof.
What is wrong with making a PC burn a bunch of spells (and their componants) to get the information from an NPC...besides if the NPC knows something then there is a good bet that the PCs are supposed to find it out one way or another anyway.
If anything I would say that this is a great approach for Good parties to take...althougn maybe it ewuates to magical torture...but still the result is completely recoverable from. Now. for the role playing. What do they do with the prisobner after they gather the information?
I guess you could have had the baddie give the info to the NPC via a coded method that required the NPC to make a will save to understand. As the levels are drained, and the Will save goes down, perhapse the NPC is no longer able to remember the coded information.
ASEO out