By the teachings of the “so called” Good Faiths, can a tribe of Goblins (Gnolls, Grindylow, Hobgoblins, Orcs, etc) hold a rightful claim to land?
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*Shoves Fyre to the side*
A better question: How much land should we kobolds have gotten which we were unjustly deprived of by those arrogant, self-important muscleheaded jackass mammals known as surface-dwellers?
The answer: all the land. Also, the seas. And everywhere underground. And stay out of our airspace. I guess all the non-gnome surface-dwellers can get reservations or something. In the toxic wastelands. With the kender.
The obvious answer is, I think: Yes, the goblins have as much right to their land as any other sentient race.
The issue is, they don't (usually, at least), have much desire to live peaceably with anyone else. They attack and raid all the time, and thus invite retaliation. If there was a goblin settlement somewhere that just wanted to live and let live, then I don't think anyone would have any good cause to go take them out. Unfortunately, this happens extremely rarely, if ever.
Oh yes - I'm pretty sure this concept applies to the kobolds, too.
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Wah wah wha-wah-wah wah wah-wah wah...
{starts melting some better in a pan} Oh, hello, don't mind me... {sprinkles salt and pepper on soon-to-be tenderloin-of-kobold}
The obvious answer is, I think: Yes, the goblins have as much right to their land as any other sentient race.
And yet, Humans and Dwarves have a distressing tendency to push other races out of their way. (Acts that are frequently supported by the gods of "Good.")
The obvious answer is, I think: Yes, the goblins have as much right to their land as any other sentient race.And yet, Humans and Dwarves have a distressing tendency to push other races out of their way. (Acts that are frequently supported by the gods of "Good.")
One more reason why I continue to push for a truly integrated society within our corner of the River Kingdoms.
Kobolds certainly bring an admirably competitive work ethic to societies that accept them. I've heard good things about Zobeck, for example.
Yeah, listen to the inbred demon! Prejudice against kobolds is wrong!
Wah wah wha-wah-wah wah wah-wah wah...{starts melting some better in a pan} Oh, hello, don't mind me... {sprinkles salt and pepper on soon-to-be tenderloin-of-kobold}
I'm quite fond of goblins. You're one of the few creatures we can take out in a two-on-one match.
Goblins? Rights?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.
... wait, yer serious?
Thank You for demonstrating the reason for the question.
Thank You for demonstrating the reason for the question.Goblins? Rights?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.
... wait, yer serious?
In the question's defense, Hazgarr is CN rather than Good.... *points to the Pirate part of the name*
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I've been worried about the lack of goblin homelands for years now; that's why I built the goblin kennels to begin with.
By the teachings of the “so called” Good Faiths, can a tribe of Goblins (Gnolls, Grindylow, Hobgoblins, Orcs, etc) hold a rightful claim to land?
If the answer is “no,” then what cause do they have to rights (or even the very lives) of other races? If this is true, is peace with these races even desirable?
But … if the answer is “yes,“ do they have the right to defend their holdings against human/dwarven/elven/etc. homesteaders? If this is true, have the centuries of warfare with these races been an effort on their part to claim/defend their rights?
I'd argue that peace with monster evil monster races is not usually desirable, unless the evil races can be cowed-- or driven so far away that they cannot work much mischief.
We are talking about whole races of evil monsters. Orcs, goblins, ogres, etc. are portrayed in most of the PF material as pretty nasty characters, frequently engaged in violent and cruel crimes against other races. They are bad guys. Ask yourself how the good faith in question would encourage their followers to handle known pirates, child-stealers, sadistic torturers, bandits, rapists, and wanton arsonists. That should give you your answer.
I could see a LG faith teaching its followers to respect the claims of evil monsters—grudgingly so—while at the same time keeping a very close eye on them. I seriously doubt any paladin worth the name is going to have an issue with trespassing in a goblin-lair in order to slay or capture some gobbos who have been raiding local farms, or bashing down an ogre’s front door to save the kidnapped women he keeps in his dungeon.
Are the monsters evil by nature or by nurture? Can they be redeemed? Can they choose not to be evil?
If the answer is yes, they can choose to be good, and then things may get more complicated. Maybe monsters form a ‘suspect class’; treated with a lot of suspicion by most good-aligned religious organizations/traditions, but not automatically seen as incarnate evil. Maybe LG faiths send paladins to capture and try monsters, instead of just slaying them out of hand. Are there pacifist clerics who try to convert orcs to the ways of weal? Are any of these idealists successful?
If the monsters are evil by nature, basically irredeemable, then things are simpler. How would you deal with a race of serial killers? I’d wipe ‘em out if I could, or at least drive them far, far away. Orcs, demons, evil dragons—all these things are basically menaces to everything good and decent, and they have to be stopped. D&D/PF materials often assume something close to this, with a little wiggle room.
I think I should point something out.
Some evil races are not innately evil. Goblins mostly only turn out as nasty as they do because of how bad their childhoods are (though they'd probably be crazy jerks no matter what). Hobgoblins indoctrinate their children into the way of war. Orcs are psychotic, obsessive-compulsive mass-murderers who probably toss kids off cliffs for forgetting to sharpen their teeth after every meal.
However, kobolds don't have that excuse. Unlike hobgoblins or orcs, we treat each other well. Except when it might lead to our own demise, in which case, hahaha, Orthos is getting swung around by his nose ring.
So since kobolds don't eat their young or anything, we may well be one of the last truly, innately evil races left!
Now give us that land or we'll launch the kenders into Magnimar.
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The obvious answer is, I think: Yes, the goblins have as much right to their land as any other sentient race.
The issue is, they don't (usually, at least), have much desire to live peaceably with anyone else. They attack and raid all the time, and thus invite retaliation. If there was a goblin settlement somewhere that just wanted to live and let live, then I don't think anyone would have any good cause to go take them out. Unfortunately, this happens extremely rarely, if ever.
Oh yes - I'm pretty sure this concept applies to the kobolds, too.
and molthume and Cheliax,
Yeah, listen to the inbred demon! Prejudice against kobolds is wrong!
I'm quite fond of goblins. You're one of the few creatures we can take out in a two-on-one match.Wah wah wha-wah-wah wah wah-wah wah...{starts melting some better in a pan} Oh, hello, don't mind me... {sprinkles salt and pepper on soon-to-be tenderloin-of-kobold}
I am not, to the best of my knowledge, "inbred".
Initiating Mikaze Countdown.
T-minus...
We are talking about whole races of evil monsters. Orcs, goblins, ogres, etc. are portrayed in most of the PF material as pretty nasty characters, frequently engaged in violent and cruel crimes against other races. They are bad guys. Ask yourself how the good faith in question would encourage their followers to handle known pirates, child-stealers, sadistic torturers, bandits, rapists, and wanton arsonists. That should give you your answer.
But that is my problem. The "Whole races of evil monsters" idea bothers me. I get that nations or peoples can be at war, but is not judging beings strictly by their genetic make-up a classic "Lawful Evil" behavior?
Counterwise, humanity has expanded to claim every piece of land avaiable - often pushing aside (or exterminating) whatever lived there before. How is this behavior any different then what these "whole races of evil monsters" are doing?
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Initiating Mikaze Countdown.
T-minus...
Mikaze is already here.
Mikaze is already here.Initiating Mikaze Countdown.
T-minus...
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We are talking about whole races of evil monsters. Orcs, goblins, ogres, etc. are portrayed in most of the PF material as pretty nasty characters, frequently engaged in violent and cruel crimes against other races. They are bad guys. Ask yourself how the good faith in question would encourage their followers to handle known pirates, child-stealers, sadistic torturers, bandits, rapists, and wanton arsonists. That should give you your answer.But that is my problem. The "Whole races of evil monsters" idea bothers me. I get that nations or peoples can be at war, but is not judging beings strictly by their genetic make-up a classic "Lawful Evil" behavior?
Counterwise, humanity has expanded to claim every piece of land avaiable - often pushing aside (or exterminating) whatever lived there before. How is this behavior any different then what these "whole races of evil monsters" are doing?
That's another reason I've always dumped the "entire race is X alignment" stuff. Things get so much more interesting and lively then.
I'd say the difference between good and evil human(oid) societies can really come through in how they expand and how they interact with the neighbors their expansion is brushing up against. Even in Golarion, you have human societies colonizing and pushing down other human societies(Sargava, Arcadian colonies).
That said, there are some societies that do need to be given a black eye, such as those held by many typically evil humanoids. But the primary reason for that should be to prevent them from harming others and themselves, by warring against the harmful parts of thier cultures rather than waging total war against an entire population. It shouldn't be about landgrabs and phat l00tz.
It shouldn't be about landgrabs and phat l00tz.
But that is what it really is, isn't it?
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It shouldn't be about landgrabs and phat l00tz.But that is what it really is, isn't it?
Sadly, that's how it comes across a lot of the time. Part of why Keep on the Borderlands holds negative appeal to me. (though I did have an idea for a half-orc/orc character whose goal was to save all those tribes even if it meant conquering them)
It can be a bit frustrating how much of that seems to be built into the game. I don't know if we missed anything because of it or not, but not too long back my half-orc and a friend's dorf refused to rob from some guy's grave-ship on principle alone, focusing only on finding a missing person and an artifact of great importance.
Felt good to have characters actually act goodly, but there's always the feeling that such behavior is going to be seen as "missing the point of the game" or "badwrong" or "shooting your WBL in the foot" or "non-optimal".
You want to know about my rights?
I'll give a right--and then a left, and then a f&@@ing punch in the face and a kick in the crotch!
Mikaze is already here.Initiating Mikaze Countdown.
T-minus...
*Ahem*
Ambiguous reference time.But Irnk, even with his keen goblin vision, does not have the perceptional luxuries of our vision omnipresent.
Irnk couldn't know that the countdown is essentially a formality.
The inbred demon is already here.
Oh, I quite agree that whole races of evil monsters can be problematic. Races of 'always' evil monsters are part of the game as written, but they don't have to be part of a given campaign. That's up to the DM.
IIRC, Tolkien struggled a bit with evil nature vs evil nurture in regards to his orcs.
One way to handle 'always evil humanoids' is to rule that they are evil spirits given flesh, perhaps
reincarnated souls of the damned or minor demons.
Another approach is to assume, as Mikaze seem to do, that the evil ways of these monster folk are mostly cultural in origin. That's an interesting approach. It does beg the question: if the monsters can choose not to be evil: why aren’t there more good and neutral goblins, orcs, trolls, etc. Maybe her setting does have more neutral or good aligned members of those monster types?
YMMV, of course! Some players and DMs will not be bothered in the least by this stuff.
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why aren’t there more good and neutral goblins, orcs, trolls, etc.
Well, how much more of a disposition of cruelty would you have to add before society no longer worked? You hit a point of being surrounded by people who are naturally a bit more predisposed towards cruelty than humans. You won't need to go far before you hit a downward spiral where anyone NOT acting like a backstabbing psycopath doesn't make it to breed, much less rise to a position where they can affect their culture. DNA---> culture---> DNA and doooown and around you go.
why aren’t there more good and neutral goblins, orcs, trolls, etc.Well, how much more of a disposition of cruelty would you have to add before society no longer worked? You hit a point of being surrounded by people who are naturally a bit more predisposed towards cruelty than humans. You won't need to go far before you hit a downward spiral where anyone NOT acting like a backstabbing psycopath doesn't make it to breed, much less rise to a position where they can affect their culture. DNA---> culture---> DNA and doooown and around you go.
Sure, although I do wonder how any race so devoid of empathy, altruism, and loyalty could survive. "All evil" doesn’t seem like a very good survival strategy for most species.
CE seems very unlikely for a thinking race that breeds in a fashion similar to humans or most other mammals.
Who takes care of little orc babies? CE evil mommas? CE evil nannies? ''I got hungry and ate the baby. “ “I stabbed it because it wouldn't stop crying." “I threw it in the fire for fun, muwahahahah!”
NE is pretty dubious. “Bleah, I don’t care about babies. I just want stuff for myself. Babies are a waste of my time and energy.”
LE I could see, if children are slaves/slaves in training. That’s possibly going to be hard to sustain, though. I’d expect a lot of runaways. Maybe if the whole race is owned by an arch devil…
Have you read up on the Harnic orcs, or 'Gargun'?
BigNorseWolf-- I agree with you about the possibility for a society to become broken/severely dysfunctional.
I don’t personally find it plausible for social beings that reproduce and learn in a fashion similar to humans to actually survive as ‘always evil’ for many generations. YMMV
In a fantasy setting we can get a little weirder with social structure, reproduction, child-rearing, etc.
I’ve gone for the unnatural or alien approach in my current game. I don’t need to worry about massacres of cute baby goblins. :)
IMC orcs are organized sort of like naked mole rats or some hive insects. I borrowed that from Harn. They have no babies unable to defend themselves, just half-grown ‘runtlings’ that pop out of the cave=-mothers multiple wombs, ready to fight from birth. Orcs have genetic memory (this is taken from Harn) which ensures that they all have a roughly similar culture. It’s violent and savage, with strong tendencies towards what most people would call evil. The cave mother can to some extent control her hive with pheromones, so society can function without imply exploding. The orcs don’t work well together when not under the control of a cave-mother. The control range is limited. They go rogue, berserk , blind, or die if the cave-mother is slain (this is inspired by a scene in Return of the King).
IMC, goblins reproduce by possessing and transmogrifying the infants of other humanoid races. Yes, that’s inspired in part by a certain movie with David Bowie.
Trolls reproduce by fission, and are not very social creatures. Their grasp of language tends to be minimal. When a troll goes into ‘heat’, other trolls sense it and chase it down, then rip it apart and scatter the pieces. The pieces grow into new trolls.
I have decided on how to handle ogres.
Kobolds might actually be little earth devils. I'm not fully set on this. New kobolds are mined from toxic ore veins and set to work for the older kobolds.
(I should note that I run Basic/Expert D&D, with just three alignments.
• Law
• Neutrality
• Chaos
Lawful is often ‘good’ and Chaos is often ‘evil’--- but not always. There are some pretty nasty Lawful type monsters or NPCs, and some Chaotic monsters are just whimsical or unpredictable.
That doesn’t mean that conflicts between good and evil aren’t part of the setting. They certainly are.
It does mean that things like detect evil spells mostly work against supernatural evil, rather than detecting antisocial and wicked personalities. )
Goblins have no rights.
They are an infestation to be wiped out.
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The issue is, they don't (usually, at least), have much desire to live peaceably with anyone else. They attack and raid all the time, and thus invite retaliation. If there was a goblin settlement somewhere that just wanted to live and let live, then I don't think anyone would have any good cause to go take them out. Unfortunately, this happens extremely rarely, if ever.
So if certain members of the goblin tribe (even its leaders) promote violence, the whole tribe pays for it? Most human settlements are easily capable of defending themselves from goblin attacks, yet they still feel the need to exterminate our kind wherever they go.
If you're looking for a truly evil race, go to urdefhans or something.
Drow.
Orcs may be chaotic evil (always), but they can still have maternal instincts? And pack instincts.
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*Shoves Fyre to the side*
A better question: How much land should we kobolds have gotten which we were unjustly deprived of by those arrogant, self-important muscleheaded jackass mammals known as surface-dwellers?
The answer: all the land. Also, the seas. And everywhere underground. And stay out of our airspace. I guess all the non-gnome surface-dwellers can get reservations or something. In the toxic wastelands. With the kender.
Given Hobgoblins are the offspring of a relationship between Hob (Ancestors to elves) and Goblins and is more commonly known than Hob-Hob. I mean really, has any one heard of a Hob-Hob? No. So obviously the Relationship between Hob and Goblin are the legitimate relationship and Hob-Hob is Lanister-style inbreeding producing - unfortunately Elves. Its all about the looks so the inbred pretty-pretty inherited all the land.
So boo to your 'Goblins are Evil' belief systems! Elves is inbred!
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The issue is, they don't (usually, at least), have much desire to live peaceably with anyone else. They attack and raid all the time, and thus invite retaliation. If there was a goblin settlement somewhere that just wanted to live and let live, then I don't think anyone would have any good cause to go take them out. Unfortunately, this happens extremely rarely, if ever.So if certain members of the goblin tribe (even its leaders) promote violence, the whole tribe pays for it? Most human settlements are easily capable of defending themselves from goblin attacks, yet they still feel the need to exterminate our kind wherever they go.
If you're looking for a truly evil race, go to urdefhans or something.
Drow.** spoiler omitted **Orcs may be chaotic evil (always), but they can still have maternal instincts? And pack instincts.
Why do you think Violence is Evil? Hecatomb is a cultural funerary rite common with all primitive monarchy. The Idea that Goblins must pop out and slaughter a thousand humans in the village down the road is a cultural obligation to celebrate the death of their leaders at the Hand of Adventurers.
MULTIPLE LARGE URBAN CENTRES This is going to be VILLAGE or better.
A WRITING SYSTEM It could be simple Pictograms, Marks identifying an individual family, or images describing a larger spoken story.
SPECIALIST LABOUR Certain people become valued for their skills in certain areas. They become Artisans, Priests, Leaders, Slaves.
SOCIAL INTEGRATION How do your Slaves get along with the other specialists? Does your ruler even look on them or are they kept out of sight.
TRADE NETWORKS The development of Trade networks linking communities.
MASS TRADE How is surplus produce collected and traded.
RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL ART What have your Artisans created to prop up the religious and Political Authority of your civilization?
IMPORTANT STRUCTURES The Palace, The Granaries, The Temples, The Monuments, Mass Irrigation Systems, Water Supply, and Drainage.
AUTHORITY FIGURES These are your Priests, Your Kings, your Special organizations like the Kings guard, the Merchant Guild.
THE BUREAUCRACY The rise of Mathematics, Geometry, and Record Keeping.
THE RULING ELITE More than just authority, these are the families of the rulers. They have access to material goods and special education.
A LEGAL CODE The development of Writing for expressing Laws and rules.
MONARCHICAL ABSOLUTISM The King or independent Chief enjoys absolute power.
EMINENT DOMAIN All land, Livestock, and Game are the property of the monarch providing a right to income.
DIVINE AUTHORITY The Ruler is a divine power or has access to divine Power.
RITUAL ISOLATION The Monarch resides in physical isolation with a few attendants to do the Monarchs Bidding. Meetings involve acts of isolation by curtains, designated speakers,
INSIGNIA OF OFFICE Royal status is displayed through symbolic regalia,
CAPITAL TOWNS The Monarch resides in a capital and new rulers establish a new capital or residence.
ROYAL COURTS The Monarch maintains a Court with assorted specialized staff. Pages, guards, chamberlains, etc.
PROTOCOL Behaviour in the presence almost universally requires conformity to a process of behaviour. Indirect Interaction, Gifts, Abject Prostration, etc.
HAREMS The ruler has a great many wives and or concubines.
QUEENS At most royal courts a queen mother, a queen consort, a Queen Sister enjoy prestige sometimes outranking the Monarch. They will likely have their own estates and enjoy some political authority.
TERRITORIAL BUREACRACY For Administrative purposes, the state is divided into administrative provinces with their own officials tasked with taxation and labour management. Such provinces will be subordinate to a central authority.
MINISTERS Located in the Capital they work as assistants to the Monarch in the central Bureaucracy.
DUALITY OF ROLES Ministers function in an assortment of areas of the bureaucracy.
TITLES Hereditary or Term of Service.
SECURITY Rivals for the throne are killed, imprisoned, or deported to maintain stability.
ELECTORAL SUCCESSION Though the Monarch designates an Heir, the final say is in the hands of ministers.
PERIOD OF MOURNING After the death of the Monarch. A period of social disorder occurs when candidates vie for power.
HECATOMB Funerary Rites for a Monarch include acts of sacrifice, sometimes large scale slaughter.
I have ways beenMikaze is already here.Initiating Mikaze Countdown.
T-minus...
I APPROVE OF YOUR METHODS.
Mikaze is already here.Initiating Mikaze Countdown.
T-minus...
*Ahem*
Ambiguous reference time.
But Irnk, even with his keen goblin vision, does not have the perceptional luxuries of our vision omnipresent.
Irnk couldn't know that the countdown is essentially a formality.
The inbred demon is already here.
*AIMS CANE*
Goblins have no rights.
They are an infestation to be wiped out.
Right, left, right, left, you're toothless
And then you say g+#&#*n they ruthless
Goblins have no rights.
They are an infestation to be wiped out.Right, left, right, left, you're toothless
And then you say g%&#%*n they ruthless
This is exactly the attitude m'lord Dice is trying to civilize out of us. Once the grand experiment has been verified in the goblin kennels, he plans to colonize the goblin homelands for the sake of civilization.
Doodlebug, redeem yourself through labor! Should you work hard and well enough, you too might earn a place in the manor house. It's warm, sleeping on the hearth. :)
*AIMS CANE*Mikaze is already here.Initiating Mikaze Countdown.
T-minus...
*Ahem*
Ambiguous reference time.
But Irnk, even with his keen goblin vision, does not have the perceptional luxuries of our vision omnipresent.
Irnk couldn't know that the countdown is essentially a formality.
The inbred demon is already here.
Oh good Kurtulmak please tell me magic is real.
*Gets out a scroll and teleports away*Oh hey it is.
BigNorseWolf-- I agree with you about the possibility for a society to become broken/severely dysfunctional.
I don’t personally find it plausible for social beings that reproduce and learn in a fashion similar to humans to actually survive as ‘always evil’ for many generations. YMMV
Well they're not always evil the same way that a demon is.
Take humanity and plot it on a belcurve. You have a large chunk say 80% of the population thats neutral. You have lets say 10% evil and 10% good. (numbers pulled out of hammerspace) Society manages to get by, partially from enlightened self interest from the evil people, partially from the good people pulling it along, but mostly from the huge mass of neutrality trudging along and working together.
Good, Neutrality and Evil are often less about what you're willing to do and who you're willing to do it for (or to...)
Neutral people treat their friends, family, relatives and neighbors relatively well. They leave them alone, don't steal (much) from them, and while they might think that getting someone kicked in the keister by a horse is funny, they'll feel bad if they do any real lasting harm. They know that they can buy a horse today and are very likely to be able to keep it, and while they know someone might "borrow" a tool or two from their shed from time to time, no one is randomly going to come along and burn down their house and crops, so they can build a house and plant crops. You and your neighbor might get drunk and get into a fistfight over a girl , but its not an every day event.
Now shift things with a slight genetic disposition towards evil. You don't have the good people actively trying to make things better, and you have twice the evil people making things worse. You still don't eat your family members, and you probably don't slaughter your own tribesmen, but taking their stuff is normal. A goblin that would, in a more neutral society, be inclined to farm or work for a living has been shown their entire life that trying to do so is POINTLESS: anything you leave unattended will be stolen. The solution is to not make anything, and take from others whenever you can. To do otherwise is to guarantee failure. Since anyone might squabble with you violently over your stuff, you have to be ready to fight, and since you're ready to fight at the drop of a hat, then so is everyone else.
The evil society will raise evil people who will raise evil people: but if they get TOO evil they'll whipe themselves out, or be taken over by a slightly less evil neighbor. So you reach some level of homeostasis around the most effective level of evilness.
*AIMS CANE*Mikaze is already here.Initiating Mikaze Countdown.
T-minus...
*Ahem*
Ambiguous reference time.
But Irnk, even with his keen goblin vision, does not have the perceptional luxuries of our vision omnipresent.
Irnk couldn't know that the countdown is essentially a formality.
The inbred demon is already here.Oh good Kurtulmak please tell me magic is real.
*Gets out a scroll and teleports away*
Oh hey it is.
*APPEARS BEHIND KOBOLD*
YOU. STOP ALL THIS SCURRYING ABOUT.
"I'm already hear"-ing that from adventurers all the time. It's not gonna happen. Especially not when you keep being "already here" on my slime pit traps. *Pulls lever in a sufficiently godmodish manner*
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I believe the reason there are set alignments for some races is so that the core races don't appear to be so evil. Think about it like this: Elves are stuck up snobs but at least they are not evil like those Orcs are. Humans on the other hand can be considered to be the most evil race in the core rulebook but are not "truely evil" because of all of the evil races in the Bestiaries. Essentially, the core races are only not considered evil because there are more evil examples that exist in the world.
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BigNorse Wolf-- your ideas help to explain why most of the evil monster races have long remained relatively primitive and often live on marginal land.
Essentially, the core races are only not considered evil because there are more evil examples that exist in the world.
Pretty much this, and it makes it fun to play with them. Some examples at least from my own game setting:
> Humans will go anywhere, snatch anything that's unclaimed and some things that are, and take anything that's not nailed down and some things that are. Much like the real world, the only thing stopping humans from going somewhere is inability to travel there at this time (due to lack of technology/magic/method), inhospitable climates they can't currently combat, or a native population they can't currently beat. Sufficient opposition or challenge will be the only excuse the race as a whole needs to concentrate on overcoming it, via new developments, war, or simple numbers.
> > > > Admittedly, being so proactive is one of the things that makes humans both most heroic and most evil of the races: they'll commit heinous crimes against other species to assert dominance and claim territory to expand their lands, eliminate entire cultures that oppose or offend them, turn on allies when it's more convenient than the peace (ex: humans and elves on one continent in my setting allied to battle back the orcs and serpentfolk; after pushing the former up into the mountains [and driving the kobolds already living there further north and west in retreat] and the latter into the southern swamps, the humans immediately turn and push the elves north into the woods, claiming the entire plains, coastland, and lower mountain slope lands for themselves), and consume resources like a famine. At the same time, looking back through history the grand majority of heroic figures recognized by all cultures are distinguished humans (these, of course, tend to be PCs); also when the race isn't feeling duplicitous, has no desire to conquer and spread, and/or is led by a just ruler they're loyal and steadfast allies more often than not.
> Elves are isolationist, slightly xenophobic, and have a superiority complex that would dwarf most high-level wizards. Despite their degradation over the eons, they've never completely forgotten the lofty status and great power their kind once wielded as the "Third Court" of FaeReie, prior to their mass exile at the hands of the Summer and Winter courts (one of the extremely few times the Seelie and Unseelie fey have allied was to banish the elves), and have always thought they could do better than the mortal races and only their poor numbers and disinterest spared the other races from conquest "for their own good". The one time the elves actually got up the nerve to take over, they actually managed it - the capital city of Olympia, the nearby human kingdom, has a bad tendency to get conquered all the time whenever things go south, and the elven takeover was only the most recent such capture. Unfortunately for them, the resulting counterattack of the rest of Olympia plus their allies to the west and north caused the elves to be badly beaten, driven even deeper back into their forests, and started a phase of extreme anti-elf (and half-elf) racism in the surrounding human territories. (The continent across the world is little better - elves are only native to this one portion of the world, so an elf who dares cross the ocean to seek refuge would find him/herself considered an oddity or feared, though perhaps not reviled.)
> Kobolds are obsessed with ... well, whatever catches their fancy. For most it's mining and gems, but for some it's smithing, for some it's crafting, for some it's machinery, etc. etc. etc. Woe to anyone who dares get between a kobold and his/her obsession... even if that obsession happens to have detrimental downsides whenever the possessor gets a new idea, such as firebombing a mountainside to uncover deeper rock for mining and save time rather than digging away manually, heedless of the village built at the base of that particular slope.
> Orcs in the past were like humans, but worse. Invasion-based, conquest-based, self-indulgent, and prone to turning on their allies just because it looked convenient. It didn't help that during their tribal ages, the race was pretty much ruled by evil clerics, druids, witches, and warlocks; it was rare for a non-caster to claim the chief's position, and rarer still for that chief caster or not to be non-evil. One too many defeats have severely dwindled their numbers though, and the race has grown out of its tribal status since, so while orcs are rare they're a more accepted race in modern society, just with a few blemishes in their past... and due to the recent war, in many places orcs are preferred over elves. (Half-Orcs do not exist in my world; their stats are used for pure Orcs, and Orc stats are used for "feral orcs" which are not available as PCs.)
> Dwarves, as I stated elsewhere, are sailors first and foremost. They often are born, live, and die without spending more than a day or two total on solid ground. This means most are merchants, travelers, explorers... or pirates. And boy howdy are there a lot of dwarven pirates. The Dwarves, often serving as the main mode of transport for human explorers, conquerors, and refugees alike seeking new lands, aided and abetted much of the domination of other regions by humanity, and often did it with a smile as long as gold or other worthy value was exchanged. And then still likely were alive to raid the next human generation's trading ships and coastal villages for plunder. Why? Because "the sea is Dwarven land" - Dwarves have no territories of their own, but their race is so intrinsically tied to oceanic life that they claim all open ocean as their sovereign domain. If a human (or other race) attempts to enforce their will past the edge of their coast, Dwarves consider that an incursion. Other races using the sea for transport or trade is a privilege, and any Dwarf considers it their right to levy a "tax" if they so desire. If you happen to be "taxed" four or five times in one trip, that's just bad luck they say, or perhaps you've offended Poseidon (the dwarves' patron deity, natch) somehow.
I could go on, but I think the point is made...
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Oh, I quite agree that whole races of evil monsters can be problematic. Races of 'always' evil monsters are part of the game as written, but they don't have to be part of a given campaign. That's up to the DM.
IIRC, Tolkien struggled a bit with evil nature vs evil nurture in regards to his orcs.
One way to handle 'always evil humanoids' is to rule that they are evil spirits given flesh, perhaps
reincarnated souls of the damned or minor demons.Another approach is to assume, as Mikaze seem to do, that the evil ways of these monster folk are mostly cultural in origin. That's an interesting approach. It does beg the question: if the monsters can choose not to be evil: why aren’t there more good and neutral goblins, orcs, trolls, etc. Maybe her setting does have more neutral or good aligned members of those monster types?
YMMV, of course! Some players and DMs will not be bothered in the least by this stuff.
I am glad someone brought up Tolkien. He was the first person to show Dwarves as other than evil. This was in the Hobbit and following shortly thereafter in LotR. But even in his early works they are portrayed as short sighted, greedy, and backstabbing.
> Kobolds are obsessed with ... well, whatever catches their fancy. For most it's mining and gems, but for some it's smithing, for some it's crafting, for some it's machinery, etc. etc. etc. Woe to anyone who dares get between a kobold and his/her obsession... even if that obsession happens to have detrimental downsides whenever the possessor gets a new idea, such as firebombing a mountainside to uncover deeper rock for mining and save time rather than digging away manually, heedless of the village built at the base of that particular slope.
...so your kobolds are gnomes.
*Sharpens cleaver*
Goblin rights? Never!
I demand my right to oppress goblins!
Dwarfs got it right: If goblin, there is axe. If orc, there is axe. If elf, there is axe. When in doubt, there is axe.
> Kobolds are obsessed with ... well, whatever catches their fancy. For most it's mining and gems, but for some it's smithing, for some it's crafting, for some it's machinery, etc. etc. etc. Woe to anyone who dares get between a kobold and his/her obsession... even if that obsession happens to have detrimental downsides whenever the possessor gets a new idea, such as firebombing a mountainside to uncover deeper rock for mining and save time rather than digging away manually, heedless of the village built at the base of that particular slope....so your kobolds are gnomes.
*Sharpens cleaver*
Heh. Nah, it's more like that my kobolds are steampunk dwarves. They took over the niche occupied by traditional dwarves with some of the "tinker" type gnomes tossed in. Hence why Dwarves are pirates and sailors rather than miners: kobolds cover the entirety of the mining, cavern-dwelling species niche, and in the later parts of my setting's timeline are the ones who master technology first. They do not, however, have things blow up in their faces all the time like gnomes do - kobolds are experts and scientists, not buffoons - and they're more steampunk than gnomish haphazard.
Also in my world there's no gnome/kobold rivalry, as Kobolds were on the world from the start whereas gnomes are a very, very recent arrival from FaeReie, after being chased out by a thing from beyond nightmare. Also kobolds have territories just about anywhere there's mountains, while gnomes are pretty much limited to a tiny sliver of land where they plopped out in their escape.