As much as I enjoyed the Far Realm article in Dragon #330, the best thing in the issue was the reply to a letter in Scale Mail, stating that not only is the Campaign Classics issue returning this winter, but it is becoming an annual feature!
This thrills me to no end. The Campaign Classics issue is my favorite issue since 3E began. I look forward to the return of more classic material from these beloved dead settings.
Thanks, Dragon Staff!
Definitely more Mystara. Dare I dream of a highly-condensed overview of the whole setting like the one that appeared in the back of the old D&D Rules Cyclopedia...?
Mystara stuff would be great, but I'd also love to see some Al-Qadim material.
- Ashavan
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I would love to see some more Mazteca content. I've been working on some ideas involving the Olman down into the Amedio Jungles and other parts even more remote and the Mazteca stuff can easily be implemented there (Thank you ever so much Greg Vaughn and Gary Holian for getting those bugs burrowing under my skin via Dungeon #114).
Dark Sun. Some would find it ironic that I frowned on this setting when I lived in New Mexico, but look on it wistfully now that I live in freezing Minnesota. Yeah, Dark Sun...*sigh*
Contributor
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Definitely more Mystara. Dare I dream of a highly-condensed overview of the whole setting like the one that appeared in the back of the old D&D Rules Cyclopedia...?
I'd love to see that too. :) You can bet that as long as I remain on the staff Erik will hear no end of "Let's support the Known World" whenever talk of the Campaign Classics issue comes up. :D
Yay for return of Classic Settings issues. I, for one, would like to throw my support behind more dark sun.
Alas, what I would love to see cannot be seen.
My favorite campaign was Lankhmar.
Oh oh oh! I almost forgot! Ghostwalk please!
Will the Legions of Thyatis march to victory once again? One can hope so.
I would most like to see more classic support for Birthright and Council of Wyrms.
Neomorte
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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For the last several hundred issues, Dragon magazine has held to a loose thematic schedule that goes something like this:
The June issue is about Dragons. Put a dragon on the cover, and try to fill the magazine with as much dragon content as possible. It's tradition, to honor the first ever issue of the magazine, and to remind us never to stray too far from our namesake.
In October, play up horror. It's Halloween, dontcha know? Try to throw in some new undead creatures.
Oh, and in April, try to do something funnny but don't make a complete ass of yourself.
Starting next year, we'll be kicking off a new tradition, by bringing back the popular Campaign Classics theme. The issue will highlight the campaign settings of the past.
I've put a great deal of thought into how an editor-in-chief might go about building an issue around the theme. I have yet to make up my mind about several important elements, and thought you guys might enjoy helping me think through how to do the very best Campaign Classics we can. With enough time, I think we can really make the issue a special treat for fans of the old settings while also providing plenty of excellent content to readers who are not familiar with some of the old gems.
I wonder if you might answer a few questions.
Pick One:
A) Cover every dead campaign setting.
B) Cover a few in more detail and with more visual resources (maps, images, etc.)
Would you be interested in a magazine that basically gave the "gist" of all of the settings as a grand tour, with some basic information on how to pull off certain tricks of the setting (defiler/preservers, red steel, gens, etc.)?
How "continuity heavy" do readers really want the articles to be?
I really want to come up with a way to showcases the elements that made each setting special, rather than just a collection of articles that go: so here's how to play a halfling in this setting. Or "here's the stats for one monster from this one corner of this setting you've never heard of."
I suspect that Dark Sun is an absolute necessity for an issue like this.
I sort of feel like Ravenloft and Dragonlance already get publishing support, and that maybe those pages would be better spent on a more hopeless cause.
Mystara seems a must, what with Mike McArtor in the office.
Kara Tur is very interesting, but why not just do something sweet with Kara Tur in an Oriental Adventures-themed issue?
Hollow World is like a complete cypher to me. I don't think I've even seriously looked at one of those supplements. As such, it is an enigma. It might be really interesting. It might be crap.
Spelljammer probably deserves a more faithful modern version. Polyhedron was always more experimental, but Dragon is Dragon, and a certain amount of decorum is expected of the office.
Lankhmar is off the table, since WotC no longer owns the gaming rights to the world.
Maztica and especially The Horde deserve some love. Call me crazy, but I would love to go National Geographic on the lands of the Tuigan. That's rich territory for both Forgotten Realms fans and for readers interested in trying something different or filling in the borders of their own campaign world.
Al-Qadim remains very popular with the readers.
Whatever I'm forgetting probably doesn't make the first cut, but let me know if I'm missing a gem (not sure Jakandor: Island of War counts).
Thoughts?
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
I prefer Option B.
Not interested in a grand tour of the classics so much as new details on a few. (Save some for the next year, and the year after that.).
Continuity. Break a few eggs if you have to. Maybe a realm-changing event in the history of one of these settings is needed to jump start interest in them again.
OA themed issue? Yes! And Yes!
Known World? A treatment like the Isle of the Dread in Dungeon would be welcome for any of the other nations of the continent.
Mazica: There are a lot of possibilities there. Real good chance to re-introduce the same type of "new world" discovery feel that Eberron has with its Lost Continent.
I think the Dark Sun article from last year's CC would be a good basis. It took something really difficult to convert, and made it 3.5e, with supplemental spells. It gave a good idea of the setting, and had some level of transerability to homebrew.
I'm in favour of option B - a bit more "meat" is definitely preferable to a dash through every setting.
The important thing is to stimulate the reader's imagination, making them think "yeah, that was cool" and "maybe I should give that a go." Then provide a little help in achieving this.
Finally, I'm one of those readers with whom Al Qadim is popular!
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1) Starting next year, we'll be kicking off a new tradition, by bringing back the popular Campaign Classics theme. The issue will highlight the campaign settings of the past.
2) Maztica and especially The Horde deserve some love. Call me crazy, but I would love to go National Geographic on the lands of the Tuigan. That's rich territory for both Forgotten Realms fans and for readers interested in trying something different or filling in the borders of their own campaign world.
1) Thank you VERY much. I think that it's a great way to be inclusive of those of us who have tastes outside the mainstream worlds.
2)I could kiss ya, man. I know a fair amount is probably my bias as an archaeologist (so you really probably couldn’t get too National Geog for my tastes), but I love the Maztica setting. Plus, Maz, the Horde, and Al-Qadim have good broad applicability to geographical regions regardless of the campaign world being used. In the Greyhawk setting, elements of Maztica can be very easily applied to the Olman, parts of The Horde are perfect for using with the Tiger Nomads, and themes in Al-Qadim can be used anywhere west of Bissel. I’m sure if I had any interest in the FR settings, I would be able to give examples for there, too. Mostly they offer a detailed look at cultures and cultural adaptation in regions that some DMs and players may not be familiar with and can be exploited. I also think that including Kara Tur in OA would be a good outlet for those fans. So in answer to your question…I would prefer option B.
Lankhmar…sigh, I know, but still…sigh.
My vote goes til B. If you make one month an issue about older campaigns, but then cover all of the big ones in one issue, what do you do the year after that? As an annual tradition, your campaigns would eventually be so poorly known that nobody that particular issue of the magazine. It's gotta be B.
I go with B also. A lot of us are already familiar enough with the older settings that we don't need an overview. I for one would really like to see another Spelljammer setting in one of your magazines. I really enjoyed the "Shadow of the Spider Moon" mini campaign in polyhedron those few years ago, and I would love to see something similar. But please...no crystal spheres. Give Spelljammer it's own setting; don't just make it a way for characters from different worlds to meet up and adventure. I think that more than anything killed it in the first place.
I would also like to see more Mystara stuff. I was never very familiar with the setting, but the "Princess Ark" was always entertaining.
Oh, and Al-Qadim. And Dark Sun. And Birthright. Maybe you guys can do this more than once a year?
Continuity is really important. Messing up people's favorite campaigns make them angry. Remember the reaction to the Dark Sun stuff? "It's good, but what were they thinking with dwarves and paladins," etc.
Erik,
Add another vote for Option B.
While I'll miss some of the settings not getting coverage, more in-depths articles would be worth it.
I'd look to the Red Steel article from the last Campaign Classics for inspiration. I consider that article to be the "template" for which others should strive. It presented a good overview of the setting, covered one of the key elements that wasn't covered anywhere else in 3E D&D (the red curse), and provided a nice bit of fan-favorite crunch from the setting (the tortles).
The plans you laid out for a Horde article sound fantastic.
I agree with Dragonlance and Ravenloft having enough support. I can do without Masque of the Red Death, as it is too modern and too similar to Ravenloft for my tastes.
Some things you might consider that are frequently requested on the various D&D Boards:
-Mystara: Rakasta
-Forgotten Realms: Ghazneths 3.5
-Maztica: Pluma and hishna magic
-Planescape: Dabus, the remaining rilmani, planewalking
-Spelljammer: Giff
I'd really like to see an in-depth treatment on travel between worlds (not planes) in 3E, and the Spelljammer article might be an appropriate place.
There's also a thread with requests here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=124962
I also agree with the "preserve continuity" vote, at least nothing too earth-shattering.
Thanks again for bringing this back!
I'll agree that picking a few (depending on space, maybe 4-8?) campgain worlds and going nuts on several pages for each one. sorry to see that some would be left out in the process, but there is always next year for them. ;)
as far as compatability - i would not cut out an inch of flavor. however, there also has to be a way that anyone can use the material in their own campaign without being dependent on the featured setting, if they choose not to use it within the presented setting. defilers/preservers? cool - just make sure that there is an "out" so that people who don't play in a "burnt world" could still use them.
as far as settings... well, you have to know that i love Planescape above all other "dead" settings. ;) it would be nice to see Greyhawk (no longer supported in products from WotC) and Mystara get some attention, though i only ever barely played in each.
and of course, this annual issue would give Shade and I the chance to send you some world-specific monster articles. :D
First off, it's the 'Known World'!
Let's leave that "lady" from those easily forgotten realms out of this. ;P That name was just tagged on anyway when they moved it to AD&D.
And yes, I want to see more. KW not FR.
Hating the 800lb. gorilla every step of the way,
GGG
And as you can probably tell; I don't mind having things shaken up a bit.
GGG
Option B
Known World, Mystara, and Hollow World please
How sweet this will be!!! OA issue with Kara-Tur? YES PLEASE!!
Campaign Classics should follow Plan B - highlight the ones with little to no support, and focus on Planescape,Spelljammer and the FR subsets of Maztica and Al-Qadim.
This will be great, thanks for changing the editorial direction and adding this back into the mix.
Zeb
I also support the notion that CC should have more in-depth content for specific worlds. Perhaps these issues of Dragon could even be the equivilent of "core books" for these worlds? All of Dungeon #112 was devoted to one adventure with none of the regular columns, so how about, say, an issue of Dragon devoted entirely to presenting the Known World in 100+ pages? Every year you could republish a different "dead" world. Those issues would sell like crazy, I would think. Where else can you get a complete campaign setting for that kind of price, especially one with a "classic" reputation and a built-in fanbase?
I also support the notion that CC should have more in-depth content for specific worlds. Perhaps these issues of Dragon could even be the equivilent of "core books" for these worlds? All of Dungeon #112 was devoted to one adventure with none of the regular columns, so how about, say, an issue of Dragon devoted entirely to presenting the Known World in 100+ pages? Every year you could republish a different "dead" world. Those issues would sell like crazy, I would think. Where else can you get a complete campaign setting for that kind of price, especially one with a "classic" reputation and a built-in fanbase?
Well if you are going to give Known World the complete the Dark Sun-thing you need to have a DM's guide and module in Dungeon as well. ;)
Triple G
PS Hollow World (the interior of the Known World) is cool too. I just think it never recieved enough support. If you wanted to go National Geographic somewhere Hollow World could be the place to do it in - that's exactly what the gods who populated it did.
My $0.02 (such as it's worth).
Impose a stringent word limit (e.g. 1500-2000 max) and try to include as many worlds as possible, ideally one article for each. Make sure that while these articles give something nifty for the diehard fans of that world it's also easily transferable to home grown campaigns (and maybe even make that a mandatory sidebar for the writer). This has a few advantages.
(1) It won't alienate those already reading the magazine by dedicating 1/12th of their subscription to stuff they can't readily apply to their campaigns.
(2) It should hopefully increase newstand sales of that particular issue as non-readers (including cranky 1st and 2nd ed types who might "come home" at least for one issue and perhaps even take up a subscription again).
(3) It gives the reader lots of interesting ideas for "change of pace" adventures and/or characters (e.g. "One nightmare in Ravenloft" where the DM uses a hypothetical Ravenloft article as to basis of a one shot adventure in the demi-plane of dread that takes place while the PCs sleep, without needing to scrap his current campaign).
All that being said...
Long live Spelljammer!!! :)
I would prefer a magazine with a few, well written, in-depth articels. At least one articel should contain some rules content and story material, that might be difficult to convert to D&D 3.5. This increases the utility and usefulness of the issue. I am looking very much forward to seeing this.
One interesting possibility would be to connect with Dungeon magazine the same month. Writing one module that either is set in a OOP setting or uses material from the magazine. There would be some complaints, but in general I think it could increase sales. At least for that month :-)
Continuity wise, I would prefer that they follow continuity somewhat. It does not have to be 100%, but more like what I gather the Spelljammer issue was. Containing new info, that still could be integrated into the old setting, but is still new and different.
I would like to see artickels for Dark Sun, Planescape and Spelljammer. Ravenloft would be nice as well, but as Eric said, it is still in print, albeit from different company. Good luck and I am looking forward to buying it :-)
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I'm all for Option B...
And for the settings, i totally love your idea of an NG-styled take on Kara Tur & The Horde.
I'd like to see some well done Planescape-articles too, especially on locations from the setting. It might be a good idea to mix this up with the poorly supported but great concept of 'Cities Of The Planes'.
I'd also like to see some Ghostwalk-material. I think this setting has a cool concept and lots of potential to create an interesting article.
I understand that you want to dedicate most of the issue to dead settings, but i think something on still published worlds like the FR and Eberron would be cool too.
In case of FR i'd love to see something from past editions, that hasn't been covered in 3rd edition until now. Maybe something on Calimshan or Amn.
For Eberron I'd really like to see an article on the not-so-well-known parts of the world like Argonnessen or Aerena.
As a fan of both Eberron and FR, who loves to see those contents, I say keep them out of the dead world's issue. There are eleven other months of the year to put their articles in, and only one campaign classics. We need that valuable paper for more content per setting and/or more settings (like maybe ghostwalk? *puppy eyes*)
I would pick B, and skip the hoolow world setting because you will not be missing much :P
perhaps a greyhawk article would be nice though...
I agree with Sucros. I'd like to see the Campaign Classics focused mainly on the "dead" settings. Eberron and the Forgotten Realms get enough coverage the rest of the year.
well, dispite the fact that the last CC issue covered '19' campaigns:), i'll go with option B.
the Realms, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Dragonlance are out i think, the first two can be covered in any issue, the last two have books out elsewhere. Kara-tur & (perhaps) by association The Horde, would be covered in an all OA issue, so the're out the window too. Ebberon is also out.
so... Dark Sun, Al Qadim, Planescape, Spelljammer, Maztica, Known World/Hollow World, Ghostwalk & (maybe) The Horde.
sound's good to me!
oh, and id LOVE to see the Giff's return:)
yes, no?
Option B, definitely option B, as I know that Greyhawk will get some love this way :D
Although, having said that, perhaps one of the focuses, or a couple, could just be a general one that give an overview of the setting. Something to 'keep the setting alive' as new readers come along and are able to get a gist of this new (to them) setting, and thus they go off and investigate it on their own.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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It occurs to me that a complete product bibliography (including novels and magazine articles) would be a neat feature for an article like this. Maybe as a double-page spread with images of the various products from the original line, and maybe some factoids or quick author quotes or something for notable releases.
Just thinking out loud.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
The bibliography would be cool, particularly if you include the author's notes. I really enjoyed reading the notes on the top adventures of all time in the recent Dungeon article.
I would go for B, no doubt about it. By next christmas WOTC would have scavenged the old settings everything remotely cool crunch-wise, so if you focus on lots of setting you'll end up with a bunch of articles on obscure races and monsters only nostalgic fans would love, because you gotta have crunchy articles (right?).
...and the killing blow to the issue is that lots of nostalgic fans favor only a few settings, not all of them. Needless to say, the campaign classic issue a couple of years back was interesting, but did not make me want to play Mystara or anything like that.
So, if you want to revisit old settings (and please do!), do it right:
* Make sure you explain why this setting is different.
* Include a poster map.
* Include a heavily condensed grand tour.
* Include a in-depth area for starting a campaign. The whole exercise is IMO pointless if I can't start a new campaign immediately.
* Include only the crunch you absolutely needs. Stick to core sources whenever possible to save space. Sell the setting, don't get bogged down in mechanics.
* Don't advance the timeline. Nostalgic fans that has been flogging the dead horse for maybe 10 years will hate you if you do.
* Include a bibliography, but make sure you include recommendations on what books to get first.
My favorite published campaing classic so far is the d20 Dark Matter minigame. It explained the setting very well, supplied good crunch to recreate the old stuff, offered lots of new cool hooks to revitalize an old campaign, without changing anything. An old fan like me as happy and I assume new fans would not really miss any of the missing stuff. Kudos to Andy Collins for that one.
Speaking of Collins, his Spelljammer minigame was awesome (although too light on the setting stuff), but I assume lots of nostalic fans did not like it.
Hmmm. Good luck.
Snotlord,
That is brilliant. I couldn't have said it better. To reiterate:
a) Provide a complete overview with map.
b) Detail a good campaign starting area.
c) Don't focus on mechanics.
d) Treat earlier sources as "sacred" and not just as inspiration (like in those dreadful Dark Sun and Spelljammer updates).
e) No advancing the "timeline."
Bingo!
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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If we updated Maztica, the Horde, Al-Qadim, or Kara Tur to 3.5, we would certainly update them to be current with the Realms products coming out now. No matter how you slice it, that means updating the timeline.
To be clear, however, I would do these as more "faithful" adaptations than Shadow of the Spider Moon, and wouldn't advance the timeline by hundreds of years as we did in the case of Dark Sun.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
"Oh, and in April, try to do something funnny but don't make a complete ass of yourself."
Erik, if I might make a suggestion, I'd love to see the return of Bard on the Run.
"Starting next year, we'll be kicking off a new tradition, by bringing back the popular Campaign Classics theme. The issue will highlight the campaign settings of the past."
Hoorah! I loved that issue of Dragon.
"Pick One:
A) Cover every dead campaign setting.
B) Cover a few in more detail and with more visual resources (maps, images, etc.)
Would you be interested in a magazine that basically gave the "gist" of all of the settings as a grand tour, with some basic information on how to pull off certain tricks of the setting (defiler/preservers, red steel, gens, etc.)?"
It would be good to have a little something for each setting, or at least more than just one, yet it would also be good to give more in-depth focus on one. If there's any way that you can meet a halfway point, I think you'd have something for everyone.
"How "continuity heavy" do readers really want the articles to be?"
I think continuity is going to be a HUGE issue. For example, while the Dark Sun article in Dragon recently was fairly good, it didn't sit well with many people to see elements that just didn't belong in a Dark Sun campaign. Paladins, for example, were a bad addition as their magic didn't work like that of other divine casters.
"I really want to come up with a way to showcases the elements that made each setting special, rather than just a collection of articles that go: so here's how to play a halfling in this setting. Or "here's the stats for one monster from this one corner of this setting you've never heard of.""
Agreed.
"I suspect that Dark Sun is an absolute necessity for an issue like this."
Definitely. Perhaps delve into some of the supplemental materials, or have an article on the heroes of the Prism Pentad series.
"I sort of feel like Ravenloft and Dragonlance already get publishing support, and that maybe those pages would be better spent on a more hopeless cause."
Maybe so, but what about Taladas?
"Mystara seems a must, what with Mike McArtor in the office."
I'd like to request an article on airships.
"Kara Tur is very interesting, but why not just do something sweet with Kara Tur in an Oriental Adventures-themed issue?"
Agreed. An entire issue showcasing Kara-Tur, as well as some more "generic" OA elements, would be sweet.
"Spelljammer probably deserves a more faithful modern version. Polyhedron was always more experimental, but Dragon is Dragon, and a certain amount of decorum is expected of the office."
Beyond certain infamous editorials around that time, I think the big mistake with the Polyhedron Spelljammer setup is that it ignored much of what made Spelljammer unique and special.
What I would propose, then, would be two different articles. The first being a Races of Spelljammer article. The second being an in-depth look into ships and space travel. I'd like to see 3e stats on more of the classic ships, including the Spelljammer itself.
"Maztica and especially The Horde deserve some love. Call me crazy, but I would love to go National Geographic on the lands of the Tuigan. That's rich territory for both Forgotten Realms fans and for readers interested in trying something different or filling in the borders of their own campaign world."
Present it both ways, then. Showcase it as a part of the Realms, and then as territories to be added to one's home campaign.
"Al-Qadim remains very popular with the readers."
Love to see this, and perhaps some notes on Arabian Adventures in general.
Also, how about a 3e update of the Tale of the Comet boxed set?
Maybe revisit some classic modules as well.
Trampas Whiteman
If we updated Maztica, the Horde, Al-Qadim, or Kara Tur to 3.5, we would certainly update them to be current with the Realms products coming out now. No matter how you slice it, that means updating the timeline.
Well, I agree. Those four are part of FR as far as I am concerned, and the timelines should be advanced as Faeruns timeline has advanced. May I suggest offering the job to Eric Boyd?
Birthright, Mystara and the other settings with absolutely no support is more what I had in mind.
O! O! Bring back Birthright!!!!! Upon saying that, you do kinda have to go with the content heavy option(since everything seems to be so well meshed together) . . . . Maybe even bundle it with a full up to date map of the setting. ok, I've done enough ranting now.
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I'd like to request an article on airships.
Me too!
Actually, until the release of Eberron (with its own take on airships) I had thought of querying an airship article (yes, even we editors have to go through the query/proposal/delivery process). Now, while I'd still like to see that article done, I'm not sure who should do it or how much it should tie together the airships of Mystara with those of Eberron.
Anyway, you're not alone Trampas. :)