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I'll be keeping an eye on this one-

But Pathfinder is my game now! I'm not sure my brain could handle learning an entirely new rules set combined with PFRPG.

I do like the art, though.

I always find it so weird to see DnD products on the front page. Isn't that like giving free advertising to your competition? :P

@Mechalibur, I was coming here to say the exact same thing. Why would Paizo showcase the new DnD game? Would love to hear the business rational behind that decision.

Paizo is a business. The business needs money. Which genrates profit. Why would they not carry 5E. Its a extra source of revenue. It shows they have no axe to grind with Wotc unlike some in the community.

I dont have an axe to grind. With that said and meaning no insult, your analysis of the situation is a bit simplistic. There are more facits to a business decision than just one source of revenue.

I for one find it interesting and a testament to paizo's attitude of "Have fun playing other stuff, we know you love us, and will come back at the end of the day."

I can't wait to try this one. Paizo selling this product here makes it a bit easier for me. I like the fact that I can include this with my Pathfinder subscriptions and pay a single shipping fee.

The loot system is interesting in their league play. It kind of reminds me of DKPs from Warcraft :)

@Mechalibur, I was coming here to say the exact same thing. Why would Paizo showcase the new DnD game? Would love to hear the business rational behind that decision.

As far as profit goes, they could very easily be making more than WotC on the boxes they sell here. Food for thought.

More than that, though, the actual D&D staff and Pathfinder staff mostly know each other and get along fine. From all reports on both sides, they don't feel like they're in a zero-sum game and most have friends on the "other side of the fence."

A post like this is just putting their money where their mouth is.

Cheers!
Landon

I get along great with my opposing counsel and in somecases we are lifelong friends, but that doesnt mean I'm going to promote their clients on my website.

Paizo is a business. The business needs money. Which genrates profit. Why would they not carry 5E. Its a extra source of revenue. It shows they have no axe to grind with Wotc unlike some in the community.

Oh, I'm well aware why they're putting it on their front page, it's just a bit awkward since I left DnD for Pathfinder a while ago. I guess it's sort of like meeting an ex while you're with your current girl/boyfriend :P

I always find it so weird to see DnD products on the front page. Isn't that like giving free advertising to your competition? :P

In addition to being a publishing company, Paizo is also one of the largest gaming-related web stores on the Internet. As such, the store offers products from every publisher who distributes their games through primary hobby channels.

If Paizo were to decide not to carry (or at least not advertise) Dungeons & Dragons products, where would we draw that line? No longer advertising Fantasy Flight products? Or Green Ronin? Or Catalyst Game Labs? Or Privateer Press? Deciding not to stock, or not to promote, something that customers might want is a bad way to be the go-to web store for any hobby. This way, if someone who frequents our boards for other reasons wants the Basic Set, they don't have to leave the site to get it. Conversely, if someone isn't familiar with Paizo and just does a web search for where they can buy the new edition of D&D, they may become a lifetime customer of paizo.com (whether or not they ever actually buy or play Paizo-published products).

Mark,

I appreciate your well reasoned response. I can envision the slippery slope you depicted causing problems with your site. As I'm not involved in your type of business and as I pointed out earlier, there are concerns that go far beyond simple revenue streams and I apprecite you calling our attention to some of them. Frankly, part of me was just interested in how that internal discussion went :)

Duncan

Expanding on what Mark said, not only does Paizo's RPG store business want to remain friendly to third parties, and there is probably some minor amount of not wanting to tread close to antimonopoly laws. There is another side of the coin for the RPG Store business, that is, they don't want clients who currently shop here for other third party sites to necessarily go to one of the competitor sites to purchase this game, and then possibly lose future revenue to that site for other third party content (and possibly first, I'm not sure if Drive Thru RPG carries Paizo PDF products?) Essentially by ensuring their clients can get all of their products here they prevent their clients becoming promiscuous with the other RPG shops and preserve revenue future revenue streams. They don't want you to go to the effort of creating an account on their competitors sites because it informs their competitors you exist, and helps them market to you, and removes your barrier to entry for future purchases.

To be a silly advocate to make it simplistic what Mark said...

D&D = Game
Paizo = Store

Game + Store = Game Store

:)

Since I'm the arbiter of what ends on the front page of the website...

I want to promote all of Paizo's products, and get people excited about the latest releases and licensed products—that is the heart of my job here, and that's the biggest priority.

I want to get people excited about third-party products for Pathfinder, as that helps promote our Pathfinder RPG line, and helps create a sense of community among the publishers and our mutual customers. I want people to know that if we don't publish something that they want for their game, there is an excellent chance that somebody else does, and I want them to know about it.

But gaming is so much more than our own products. Once you start gaming, you're much more amenable to play other kinds of games, whether it's a different roleplaying game, a board game, card game, or whatever. I want to let people know about these games too, as a healthy gaming industry helps everybody, and that's why I will be talking about the latest edition of Dungeons & Dragons. I absolutely loathe the "my game is better than your game" mentality, and I will continue to heartily reject it, and occasionally showcase non-d20-based roleplaying games as the schedule (and potential for sales) permits. (There are certain products that don't sell well on our site—wargames, for example—so I do not focus on them as much as roleplaying games.)

Expanding on what Mark said, not only does Paizo's RPG store business want to remain friendly to third parties, and there is probably some minor amount of not wanting to tread close to antimonopoly laws...

I do want to be friendly to third parties, but anti-monopoly laws are not even on my radar as for why. :)

There is another side of the coin for the RPG Store business, that is, they don't want clients who currently shop here for other third party sites to necessarily go to one of the competitor sites to purchase this game...

We've said it before, but we don't care *where* you get our games. Buy it where it makes the most sense for you and your gaming budget.

... and then possibly lose future revenue to that site for other third party content (and possibly first, I'm not sure if Drive Thru RPG carries Paizo PDF products?)

Paizo PDFs are only sold on our site, but there is a huge variety of PDFs (and print-on-demand!) through Drive Thru, so it balances out in an overall sense.

Essentially by ensuring their clients can get all of their products here they prevent their clients becoming promiscuous with the other RPG shops and preserve revenue future revenue streams. They don't want you to go to the effort of creating an account on their competitors sites because it informs their competitors you exist, and helps them market to you, and removes your barrier to entry for future purchases.

Again, I do not care if people shop elsewhere—of course I want people to shop at Paizo.com, and I do my best to make it easier for people to do so, but again, people will shop where it makes the most sense for them. It's hardly an "us vs. them" mentality that drives my decisions for Paizo.com, it's a "how can I focus this so that this is appealing to our customers so that they will make their purchase on our site." Even if you don't make your final purchase on our site, you will know about the product, and again, a healthy game industry is good for everybody.

While I'm certain Paizo would prefer you play Pathfinder, they certainly don't mind if you play:

D&D with Pathfinder Minis
D&D with Pathfinder Flip Maps
D&D with Pathfinder Item Cards
D&D with Pathfinder Adventure Paths
etc.

Same goes for many of the other fantasy RPGs. I happen to be running the Kingmaker Adventure Path in the Midgard Campaign Setting using Dungeon Crawl Classics. There are plenty of things I still get from Paizo to help.

Since I'm the arbiter of what ends on the front page of the website...

Well that pretty much sums it up, Liz's is a ninja, don't like what is on the front page and if your lucky you will get to see the hail of shrunken that ends your life and think to yourself "cool" in your last gurgling breaths; if your unlikely you just wake in Pharasma's queue and without a cool story to share with the rest of the petitioners.

Liz, I would like to be featured on the front page :) Lets make that happen!

Liz, I would like to be featured on the front page :) Lets make that happen!

Make an awesome product and then we can talk. :P

Duncan7291 wrote:

Liz, I would like to be featured on the front page :) Lets make that happen!

Make an awesome product and then we can talk. :P

I dont make products, but I do defend those individuals/companies that do.

If we look back I am pretty sure there have been front page posts about other rpg systems. Edge of the empire showed up earlier in the year. I know for a fact that it is a 'competator' for pathfinder since my group plays both games, and we have bought edge products. Though odly, we still bought a significant amount of pathfinder products too. Strange how that is right?

And if you think about it in many ways fantasy flight is as much a competator of paizo as wizards. They make rpgs, products to support those rpgs (adventures, supplements, dice), they have a large number of high quality miniature products, they have board and card games.

Yet somehow there wasnt any comment when ffg products turn up on the front page.

I think its cool that paizo is moving with business as usual in the face of DND next. It would be silly and probably unproffessional to try to downplay the release or not sell wizards products (which by the way have always been available on paizo.com). And as mentioned, thats a ton of potential sales paizo would be ignoring, but there is also the cross promotion and cross use of products.

Paizo accessories are generally useful for a dnd game. Dnd minis are useful for pathfinder games. There are people who are running pathfinder aps in 4E and probably will be ones that run them in 5E. So why wouldnt paizo want to have people who buy DnD products coming to this site as well?

Oh, I'm well aware why they're putting it on their front page, it's just a bit awkward since I left DnD for Pathfinder a while ago. I guess it's sort of like meeting an ex while you're with your current girl/boyfriend :P

It's sad that people treat games and game companies this way. It's probably a byproduct of the way gamers in general view relationships, but that's a subject for another, most delicately handled thread.

It's sad that people treat games and game companies this way. It's probably a byproduct of the way gamers in general view relationships, but that's a subject for another, most delicately handled thread.

I personally prefer a harem of games ;0

Mechalibur wrote:

Oh, I'm well aware why they're putting it on their front page, it's just a bit awkward since I left DnD for Pathfinder a while ago. I guess it's sort of like meeting an ex while you're with your current girl/boyfriend :P

It's sad that people treat games and game companies this way. It's probably a byproduct of the way gamers in general view relationships, but that's a subject for another, most delicately handled thread.

Well for a lot of people, it was a pretty ugly break up, and there was a lot of acrimony, it wasn't like they grew apart and amicable parted ways, more like they came home from gencon to find all their books being thrown on the lawn.

Sebastrd wrote:

Mechalibur wrote:

Oh, I'm well aware why they're putting it on their front page, it's just a bit awkward since I left DnD for Pathfinder a while ago. I guess it's sort of like meeting an ex while you're with your current girl/boyfriend :P

It's sad that people treat games and game companies this way. It's probably a byproduct of the way gamers in general view relationships, but that's a subject for another, most delicately handled thread.

Well for a lot of people, it was a pretty ugly break up, and there was a lot of acrimony, it wasn't like they grew apart and amicable parted ways, more like they came home from gencon to find all their books being thrown on the lawn.

That is sort of true, but I think its time for everyone to move on, its been years. Paizo and pathfinder are thriving. I think its going to be ok and we can stand seeing Dungeons and Dragons around from time to time.

If Wizards/dnd was your ex, after this much time, any adult should be able to be in the same room with them, even talk pleasantly at a social gathering without cringing or biting down bitter words.

Frankly, part of me was just interested in how that internal discussion went :)

I doubt there was any internal discussion. The store blog offered a discount on preorders of the 4e books back in March of 2008. Here's the first 4e adventure profiled, and the 4e release. They've spotlighted WotC products for years.

Galnörag wrote:

Sebastrd wrote:

Mechalibur wrote:

Oh, I'm well aware why they're putting it on their front page, it's just a bit awkward since I left DnD for Pathfinder a while ago. I guess it's sort of like meeting an ex while you're with your current girl/boyfriend :P

It's sad that people treat games and game companies this way. It's probably a byproduct of the way gamers in general view relationships, but that's a subject for another, most delicately handled thread.

Well for a lot of people, it was a pretty ugly break up, and there was a lot of acrimony, it wasn't like they grew apart and amicable parted ways, more like they came home from gencon to find all their books being thrown on the lawn.

That is sort of true, but I think its time for everyone to move on, its been years. Paizo and pathfinder are thriving. I think its going to be ok and we can stand seeing Dungeons and Dragons around from time to time.

If Wizards/dnd was your ex, after this much time, any adult should be able to be in the same room with them, even talk pleasantly at a social gathering without cringing or biting down bitter words.

I find blaming Hasbro to be a way to still like Wizards. Don't blame the ex. Blame the ex's crazy dad.

It's hardly an "us vs. them" mentality that drives my decisions for Paizo.com, it's a "how can I focus this so that this is appealing to our customers so that they will make their purchase on our site." Even if you don't make your final purchase on our site, you will know about the product, and again, a healthy game industry is good for everybody.

This by the way is one of the things that makes Liz awesome.

Also, Wizards of the Coast seems to be making a genuine effort to win back the ground after the massive alienation-fest of 4e, so it's not a bad idea to give them some good will.

To be fair, Wizards did give us the OGL, which is how we have Pathfinder.. :)

It's good business. It's neighborliness. It's good for gaming in general. I am glad to see Paizo's support of 5e.

From all reports on both sides, they don't feel like they're in a zero-sum game

I'm a bit late to the party here, but I want to expand on this.

From a business and economics sense, it is very much not a zero sum game. It's not a case of "Pathfinder or DnD, they are mutually exclusive". A zero sum game also assumes that everyone who will be playing is already doing so. There are plenty of people who play both, people who switch from one to the other, people who switch from another game system to one of the major D20 players, etc.

If DnD is successful, that will bring in more players, new and old, which will expand the overall market. A larger market is good for everyone. The bigger the pie is, the larger a slice everyone can have.

I dont have an axe to grind. With that said and meaning no insult, your analysis of the situation is a bit simplistic. There are more facits to a business decision than just one source of revenue.

It's a good business decision. simple as that. The only us vs them attitude towards rpg publishers is by the fans or poorly run rpg companies.