Starfinder Adventure Path #37: The White Glove Affair (Fly Free or Die 4 of 6)

Announced for February! Product image and description are not final and may be subject to change.

Announced for February! Product image and description are not final and may be subject to change.

The cover image doesn't display, Katina.

It's a mockup though.

Updated cover is shiny :3

Also shantaks huh

Frustratingly the PDF image issues are persisting, at this point I can only assume it will continue for the entire AP. Conceptually this AP is great but the amount of effort required to extract images for VTT use has moved this from the AP I was most excited about to the one I'm least excited about. Otherwise the stuff in this book is pretty cool!

I've never figured out what fancy combination of paid programs people use for the image processing, but I have no problems screenshotting, saving the image and uploading the images with the grids onto Roll20 and going from there. At this point without having figured out the reliable macro rules or how to load a character, I can load an AP volume in 2-3 hours with maps and icons.

Yeah, I just use the snip tool and upload into roll 20. Easy peasy.

Maps are easy enough it's true, but when the NPC and monster images are all surrounded by text and suddenly you have to remove that for every single one because you can no longer extract it as a single image that's quite a bit of extra work.

Anyone care to share what's in the Alien Archive for this one?

Alien Archive Spoilers:

I subscribe to this product line -- and I am in CANADA. The cost of shipping is vastly prohibitive and costs me more than the cost of the product itself, but I do it to get the PDF.

You continue to slice apart the images in your PDF to prevent them from being extracted form the PDF for use in VTT play. This matter was drawn to your attention in November of 2020. You appear to now be deliberately WRECKING the value-in-use I get out of the PDF subscription. As this has been drawn to your attention since November, I can only conclude you are continuing to do this on purpose to promote sales of Pawns via subscription or purchase of VTT products from Roll 20. There is no other rational explanation.

Innocent ignorance of the issue appears to no longer be a reasonable assumption given the passage of time since this was drawn to Paizo's attention more than three months ago.

I don't like accusing Paizo of deliberately doing s%~*ty things, but right now? There seems no other reasonable explanation for this.

I run my games via VTT. I have for 8 years. Now, we are in a PANDEMIC. To cripple your products for use via VTT during a pandemic is unconscionable. You need to be BETTER than this.

I'm a full subscriber to this product line and have been a Paizo subscriber since you only published the magazines. There is literally NOT ONE SINGLE PRODUCT Paizo has ever made that I don't own -- not one. I've even got some really odd one-off Encounter products from back-in-the-day. But despite being a committed fan? If you don't fix this? I'll stop subscribing. It's pretty simple. I subscribe to get a PDF that is useful to me. You are no longer meeting my reasonable expectations as a subscriber, and explanations arising out of mere accidents is starting to vanish as a reasonable explanation for the continuing inaction. I am not paying a premium price at nearly DOUBLE the cost for your products for no good reason at all.

And you wouldn't do it if you were me, either.

If I am out of line or I have misunderstood some aspect of your products, I would LOVE to be wrong about this. Prove me wrong and I will shout it from the rooftops, gladly.

I don't believe that this is something intentional, mainly because it isn't affecting any other Paizo products that I've seen. My best guess is that because these books are prepared well in advance of release, the issue was simply missed until the first book dropped, and they haven't rectified it yet. I'm assuming that at worst this will continue for the entire AP but I sincerely hope that is not the case.

That being said, it is ABSOLUTELY an issue that must be fixed and ideally rectroactively corrected. I am of a similar opinion that I would rather save £50 and buy the PDF on release than get a product slightly early that is borderline unusable for my purposes.

I don't believe that this is something intentional, mainly because it isn't affecting any other Paizo products that I've seen. My best guess is that because these books are prepared well in advance of release, the issue was simply missed until the first book dropped, and they haven't rectified it yet. I'm assuming that at worst this will continue for the entire AP but I sincerely hope that is not the case.

That being said, it is ABSOLUTELY an issue that must be fixed and ideally rectroactively corrected. I am of a similar opinion that I would rather save £50 and buy the PDF on release than get a product slightly early that is borderline unusable for my purposes.

To be clear, this issue did not begin with the PDFs for Fly Free or Die. It began with Vol 1 of The Devastation Ark.

I also would prefer to think this was the result of oversight and was non-intentional. I have not seen this behavior from a Paizo PDF other than in back issues of Dungeon and Dragon Magazine.

But it's been seven months now. The issue has been drawn to their attention. They know.

Let's hope they fix it.

SeriousSydney wrote:

I don't believe that this is something intentional, mainly because it isn't affecting any other Paizo products that I've seen. My best guess is that because these books are prepared well in advance of release, the issue was simply missed until the first book dropped, and they haven't rectified it yet. I'm assuming that at worst this will continue for the entire AP but I sincerely hope that is not the case.

That being said, it is ABSOLUTELY an issue that must be fixed and ideally rectroactively corrected. I am of a similar opinion that I would rather save £50 and buy the PDF on release than get a product slightly early that is borderline unusable for my purposes.

To be clear, this issue did not begin with the PDFs for Fly Free or Die. It began with Vol 1 of The Devastation Ark.

I also would prefer to think this was the result of oversight and was non-intentional. I have not seen this behavior from a Paizo PDF other than in back issues of Dungeon and Dragon Magazine.

But it's been seven months now. The issue has been drawn to their attention. They know.

Let's hope they fix it.

I'm looking at my PDFs for Devastation Ark now and I'm not seeing the same issues as in the current AP. There are some pages where the image is not selectable but it can still be extracted as a solid image. I didn't even realise that was a problem until you brought it to my attention and it wasn't enough of a problem to prevent me extracting the images the first time around.

The Fly Free or Die issues make almost all of the images impossible to extract without either manually recombining the piecemeal pictures or carving away the surrounding text using an image editor. This is a serious hamper to the usability.

I'm looking at my PDFs for Devastation Ark now and I'm not seeing the same issues as in the current AP. There are some pages where the image is not selectable but it can still be extracted as a solid image. I didn't even realise that was a problem until you brought it to my attention and it wasn't enough of a problem to prevent me extracting the images the first time around.

Perhaps I should have been more careful in my words.

You are correct that the ORIGINAL VERSION of the Devastation Ark Vol 1, which when it was first released, weighed in at 347,946KB contained the image files without being carved up. (Why the PDF was so large? I don't know.) They extract as 387 images when PDF Image Extraction wizard is used -- and yes -- the underlying art images are intact. All true.

When that huge PDF size was reprocessed and changed by Paizo, the images in that same PDF were carved up by a factor of 20 and this old-timey security feature was first introduced, too. (I have no idea why, as more overall files increase over all file size when unzipped, not less.) That SAME PDF, when processed by PDF Image extraction Wizard now extracts 7,840 images. The underlying images are quite destroyed, I assure you.

If you re-download Devastation Ark Vol 1 from your Digital Assets, you'll see the nonsense starts there.

When that huge PDF size was reprocessed and changed by Paizo, the images in that same PDF were carved up by a factor of 20 and this old-timey security feature was first introduced, too. (I have no idea why, as more overall files increase over all file size when unzipped, not less.) That SAME PDF, when processed by PDF Image extraction Wizard now extracts 7,840 images. The underlying images are quite destroyed, I assure you.

If you re-download Devastation Ark Vol 1 from your Digital Assets, you'll see the nonsense starts there.

So the above was an Aha! moment for me.

This forensic tracking of the PDFs and WHEN and WHY they changed on the same PDF shines a great deal of light on the situation. Here's what I think happened:

For reasons not yet known, staff working from home late last spring/early summer created The Devastation Ark PDF files using whatever software and settings they had on their home machines, whether logged in remotely or working on their home gear. And for reasons that aren't entirely clear, ended up creating a PDF with a HUGE file size.

It wasn't because the maps were huge in resolution; they weren't. At all. It was due to some other as yet unknown quirk in their file settings. (Adobe can do that.)

My guess is that whoever was doing this was using software at home that didn't match the settings that had previously been used at the office, or something else was "off". Whatever the case, we ended up with PDF file sizes which were really BIG - so large they could not be easily used by people with some phones and some 5+ year old tablets.

There was then some whining last Fall about map resolution and PDF file size. THAT lead to the older Devastation Ark PDFs being reprocessed and these Interactive Maps being released as well alongside Fly Free or Die. The processing that was used probably used some old timey security settings for PDF creation in some misguided quest to reduce file sizes using "known to be good" settings (known to be good in 2008, that is). Sure the file size was reduced -- but the image carving exploded by creating between 15 to 20 times the original art assets in the process because of the settings used to create the PDF. The new settings they used were in part correct (as they reduced file size), but they also added in this unnecessary security image carving, too.

What they need to do is apply the file settings and PDF layer style to Starfinder AP that they use for Pathfinder AP and just export using those features on the main volume. That should fix everything.

I admit, I had been assuming the two issues were related due to the timing, but the exact mechanics of what happened where were above my understanding.

And I was one that had trouble with the file sizes on my rickety old tablet. Though I did actually replace it last year, so *shrug*.

Hopefully someone is working on the interactive maps playing nice with iOS.

What they need to do is apply the file settings and PDF layer style to Starfinder AP that they use for Pathfinder AP and just export using those features on the main volume. That should fix everything.

Most of what you've pieced together above is correct. Ultimately, yes, this is related to the previous file size issue. Multiple members of the art team spent a lot of time going through the old files to figure out why they were so large, and finding a means of shrinking them.

The issue wasn't settings-based, but rather related to some design elements that were included in the print version of the book (for which the file size is not an issue because we usually send files to the printer that are orders of magnitude larger than our customer-facing PDFs offered for sale on paizo.com) Without removing those elements entirely, the only way to reduce the file size was to flatten the PDF to a degree we don't normally do. That's what caused the image-splitting issue you're describing.

Now that we are aware of how the specific design elements used in these two APs affects the final size of the PDF, we will be sure not to include those elements in future Starfinder APs. (It's never been an issue for Pathfinder, but we'll also avoid using the same effects in those products as well.)

PDFs as a format were not intended to be an image delivery mechanism, but rather a means of digitally transmitting fully laid-out documents, be they text with styles applied or full-color illustrated game manuals like we produce. The intention of including them as a purchasable product and as a benefit for subscribers is so that readers can access the book in either physical or digital format. If the intention was to provide the images by themselves, independent of the layouts on which they appear in the published book, we would distribute them via another mechanism. The fact that there are software solutions which enable readers to extract the images from a PDF doesn't mean that the PDFs are intended to be used that way. We have never intentionally put any security features on our PDFs that would prevent those programs from working, and will continue to offer them as we previously did for all content with the exception of these 9 Starfinder AP volumes.

All that said, we are aware that both the constant march of technology and the necessities of our current global health crisis have vastly increased the number of players gaming via VTTs. We are exploring ways to get more content to VTT users natively on their platforms of choice, but don't have any formal announcements to make at this time. We do not currently plan to release art assets by themselves as downloads for users to import themselves into VTTs, though we will continue watching market trends and reassess that decision down the road as necessary.

I'm sorry that these 9 issues of Starfinder Adventure Path are difficult to port over to your VTT of choice. We have done everything we can do to make the PDFs function as intended, and will do everything we can do to ensure future AP volumes provide the unintended benefit that you have requested here.

Thank you for your response! It's good to know that the issue has been resolved going forward (at least starting with the next AP), and I'm glad Paizo is transparent about the situation. I appreciate that the images from the PDFs were never intended for use as image distribution but the ability to easily make use of those images has, both for me and many GMs I know, become a major selling point of the PDFs so I'm glad to hear there won't be any restrictions on this.

I'm sorry that these 9 issues of Starfinder Adventure Path are difficult to port over to your VTT of choice. We have done everything we can do to make the PDFs function as intended, and will do everything we can do to ensure future AP volumes provide the unintended benefit that you have requested here.

That's a fair and candid reply. While I am unhappy with the result, I now understand the reason. I don't like it; but I can live with it.

Thanks for the reply Mark.

It is indeed very sad that these PDFs will not be fixed, especially since the most appealing Starfinder AP ever is affected and thus almost impossible to play comfortably in a VTT. It is good to know that the issue will not be occurring in the future.

I am curious, though, what did you do different in The Devastation Ark at first that caused the huge file size?

By the way, those first Devastation Ark files not only were huge – I didn't really mind the file size – but it was also impossible to select any text from them.

It is indeed very sad that these PDFs will not be fixed, especially since the most appealing Starfinder AP ever is affected and thus almost impossible to play comfortably in a VTT. It is good to know that the issue will not be occurring in the future.

I am curious, though, what did you do different in The Devastation Ark at first that caused the huge file size?

By the way, those first Devastation Ark files not only were huge – I didn't really mind the file size – but it was also impossible to select any text from them.

Odd. I just fired up the first version of Dev Ark 1 (PDF file size 347,911 kb, unzipped) and I can select text in the file with Adobe Acrobat Pro DC. Were you using another reader?

Anyways, probably not the thread to derail the discussion from Fly Free or Die.

Which is - and I would agree with your most positive point - actually IS the most appealing Starfinder AP to yet be released to my eye. So much so that it drew me back into the game and lit a fire under me to run it after a break from it over the past two years. So, despite the crappery going on with the squished and broken files, the AP itself is really pretty damned good.

Which is why I was busy creating the campaign in Foundry VTT so that I could find out about these other technical barriers in the first place! [Talk about burying the lede.]

To be clear though, you CAN get an image out of these PDFs. It's just time consuming to do. But with copy+paste of the image fragments from Acrobat to Photoshop (or GIMP, which is free) you can add and align these piece so they join, merge the layers and get them all to work.

Yes, the layer masks are hard to recreate and I generally don't have the patience for it; however, with selective PDF page ripping of a single page using PDF Image Extraction Wizard (and lots of patience) you could do that, too. You can get by with a magic wand and polygonal lasso tool on most of them. Only a few of the alien images really need a painfully reassembled image mask to look their best.

You're right, text selection works fine in the v1 "Waking the Worldseed PDF. What I had in mind was the first release of the "We're No Heroes" PDF, which incidentally had its images broken up even worse than the second version.

I use imagemagick command line wizardry to piece the images together, but even after that, they are overlaid with the stationary decoration, which would not happen with an unflattened file.

In the end I hope Fantasy Grounds will make a working product soon, I think they get the full Indesign package with usable images.

FFoD hit FG marketplace today (23 February). But, it's kinda sad that going into what looks like another summer of limited in person gaming (Paizocon is only online, for example) plus, as others have said, the most intriguing and interesting AP to be published for Starfinder, that Paizo does not seem likely to fix this. It seems like they are shooting themselves in the alien appendage as people can't play it without significant overhead, but then GMs won't buy it due to this difficulty potentially leading to lower sales and then the answer "well, it didn't sell well, so it's not worth the effort". I still have hope that Paizo management will see the light and err on the side of quality. Long term customers generally value quality above everything else.

Hey, there's a rather significant map missing from the included maps pack:

As with every other book in this AP, trying to get the map into a VTT is incredibly cumbersome due to the formatting. Any way we can get this map added somehow, or provided as a standalone image?

I'm prepping the White Glove Affair, and I have just reached the starship combat noted on p.37.

Apparently, the PCs are going to be fighting with their new ship.

Is the "White Wind" the Compent Windfall on the inside cover and there was just a name change that just got missed in editing?

Also, is there a visual representation of what the Compent Guardian is supposed to look like? Do I have some visual depiction of the ship the PCs need to fight? Any suggestions if there isn't one I missed?

I'm prepping the White Glove Affair, and I have just reached the starship combat noted on p.37.

Apparently, the PCs are going to be fighting with their new ship.

Is the "White Wind" the Compent Windfall on the inside cover and there was just a name change that just got missed in editing?

Also, is there a visual representation of what the Compent Guardian is supposed to look like? Do I have some visual depiction of the ship the PCs need to fight? Any suggestions if there isn't one I missed?

Jason Tondro was kind enough to answer this question for me on Twitter.

Short strokes: The ship on the inside cover, the Compent Windfall, is a different ship than the White Wind, but being sister ships, they have the same deck plan and starship stat block.

The art for the Compent Guardian is not in Vol. 4 (although the stat block is). The art for it may appear among the FFoD Pawn Set; he wasn't sure.

Thanks for answering Jason!

Steel_Wind wrote:

I'm prepping the White Glove Affair, and I have just reached the starship combat noted on p.37.

Apparently, the PCs are going to be fighting with their new ship.

Is the "White Wind" the Compent Windfall on the inside cover and there was just a name change that just got missed in editing?

Also, is there a visual representation of what the Compent Guardian is supposed to look like? Do I have some visual depiction of the ship the PCs need to fight? Any suggestions if there isn't one I missed?

Jason Tondro was kind enough to answer this question for me on Twitter.

Short strokes: The ship on the inside cover, the Compent Windfall, is a different ship than the White Wind, but being sister ships, they have the same deck plan and starship stat block.

The art for the Compent Guardian is not in Vol. 4 (although the stat block is). The art for it may appear among the FFoD Pawn Set; he wasn't sure.

Thanks for answering Jason!

For staff that is on Twitter, I think they are more likely to reply to you there than here. The forums don't notify us when y'all have questions, so we have to actively look. (Thank goodness.) Some of use are open to DMs.

Frustratingly the PDF image issues are persisting, at this point I can only assume it will continue for the entire AP. Conceptually this AP is great but the amount of effort required to extract images for VTT use has moved this from the AP I was most excited about to the one I'm least excited about. Otherwise the stuff in this book is pretty cool!

There's a simple solution to this. Download "TokenTool" go to File > Open PDF and it will separate all the images from the PDF individually.

Then (if they are segmented images), you can drag-drop them to paint and line them up like a puzzle, easy-peasy.

You're welcome.
- jrock9430

Hey, there's a rather significant map missing from the included maps pack:

** spoiler omitted **

As with every other book in this AP, trying to get the map into a VTT is incredibly cumbersome due to the formatting. Any way we can get this map added somehow, or provided as a standalone image?

Did we ever get the Compent Winfall starship map in an updated Interactive Map that I can put into Foundry?

LeJerque wrote:

Hey, there's a rather significant map missing from the included maps pack:

** spoiler omitted **

As with every other book in this AP, trying to get the map into a VTT is incredibly cumbersome due to the formatting. Any way we can get this map added somehow, or provided as a standalone image?

Did we ever get the Compent Winfall starship map in an updated Interactive Map that I can put into Foundry?

Are there errors or omissions in this product information? Got corrections? Let us know at store@paizo.com.

GM Derek wrote:

LeJerque wrote:

Hey, there's a rather significant map missing from the included maps pack:

** spoiler omitted **

As with every other book in this AP, trying to get the map into a VTT is incredibly cumbersome due to the formatting. Any way we can get this map added somehow, or provided as a standalone image?

Did we ever get the Compent Winfall starship map in an updated Interactive Map that I can put into Foundry?

Are there errors or omissions in this product information? Got corrections? Let us know at store@paizo.com.

I'll work on this issue internally too, but I would appreciate and email from you if you have not done so already. :)

So far I've been really liking this adventure path - there have been a few plot gaps between books but nothing I couldn't workaround.

I just don't get how this one is supposed to work, though.

I'm expecting my players to hit the station very soon and the more I think about it the more it just makes no sense. The book gives them no goals, and then throws obstacles in the way of achieving something they have no idea they even want to do.

They aren't even in contact with a friendly NPC to give them a nudge...

I have altered this for my players so that they have to prevent the auction from having a winner, at which point the otter will pick them up and they can raid the ship