Hello, first post.
My group is thinking about doing an Gestalt game, setting it in the future of our current games, with the offspring of our current characters.
I was thinking about doing a Dwarf Fighter/Battle Oracle (yeah i know Dwarves get a minus to Charisma, cleric/warpriest would be better, but i've done so many Clerics i wanted something a little different) with a combat focus, with spell to buff/cure for the most part.
How would you suggest i build this character, with out too much "just dump X stat". Our group will probably consist of this character, a Paladin/Ranger, Sorcerer/Swashbuckler and 2 as of yet to be determine.
For the Fighter half, you can take both Foehammer and High Guardian archetypes together. Foehammer is a Dwarf specific archetype, so it has some flavor for your chosen race. Normally I would say High Guardian sucks, but it has the benefit of giving you Combat Reflexes with your Strength modifier to determine extra AoO.
Warsighted Oracle for Martial Flexibility is a pretty obvious choice for a battle focused character.
Take all the Bull Rush feats, Merciless Rush and Spiked Destroyer with spiked armor... The usual Dwarf stuff.
For the Fighter half, you can take both Foehammer and High Guardian archetypes together. Foehammer is a Dwarf specific archetype, so it has some flavor for your chosen race. Normally I would say High Guardian sucks, but it has the benefit of giving you Combat Reflexes with your Strength modifier to determine extra AoO.
Warsighted Oracle for Martial Flexibility is a pretty obvious choice for a battle focused character.
Take all the Bull Rush feats, Merciless Rush and Spiked Destroyer with spiked armor... The usual Dwarf stuff.
ooooh, nifty, I hadn't thought of the Warsighted Archetype, definitely will have to check that out, Thanks!!!!!
Two things to remember about gestalt...
1) Action Economy is your most valuable resource, and gestalt generally doesn't give you more of that. If you want to buff and fight, you'll probably do best with pre-battle buffs.
2) You don't need to synergize your classes in a way that shoots your numbers up and makes you significantly 'better' in an area than a character would normally be. To put it another way, there's a point where you hit diminishing returns - it doesn't matter if you're doing 50% or 75% of a foe's health in damage, because you'll still need to do another hit of the same strength to bring them down. Lean towards versatility and being able to handle different situations with your option choices, not the same situation but better than before. ^^
Very true, I just rolled by stat block and its pretty decent and lends itself to a lot of different options:
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con:17
Int: 14
Wis: 15
Cha: 15
nothing too powerful, but nothing that will hurt me either.
Typically, in Gestalt games, mixing a Tier 1,2, or 3 class with a Tier 4, 5, or 6 class generates some of the most interesting/fun characters without overwhelming you as a Player trying to keep track of everything that a Tier 1/2/3 class can do. I like Power's Tier List in terms of accuracy.
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=12p6rm0f4e6egaq5cqc592q6p0&t opic=11990.0
You know, I figured, what the heck. I have my own perspective on the Tiers, so I may as well share it.
ACG = Advanced Class Guide Playtest
Anything in red is weak for its tier. Anything in blue is strong for its tier. Not sure if there's a point to color-coding Tier 1s or Tier 6s, but I marked the vow of poverty monk in red for Tier 6 since it's so stupid it's usually in a league of its own.
Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.
Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Witch, Sorcerer (Razmiran Priest archetype, Paragon Surge spell, Mongrel Mage archetype, Mnemonic Vestment robe), Oracle (Paragon Surge spell, Mnemonic Vestment robe, Dreamed Secrets feat), Psychic (Mnemonic Esoterica discipline power, Mnemonic Vestment robe) Shaman, Arcanist
Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.
Oracle, Psychic, Sorcerer, Summoner, Unchained Summoner
Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.
Alchemist, Bard, Skald, Inquisitor, Magus, Investigator, Warpriest, Hunter, Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue, Vigilante w/ spellcasting archetype, Occultist, Mesmerist, Medium, Spiritualist
Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.
Barbarian, Unchained Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Adept, Bloodrager, Slayer, Martial Master and/or Mutation Warrior Fighter, Archetyped Brawlers, Kineticist, Shifter
Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.
Fighter, Vanilla Brawler, Vigilante, Ninja, Rogue, Unchained Rogue, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler (ACG), Archetyped Monks, Unchained Monk
Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.
Vanilla Monk, Aristocrat, Expert, Warrior, Commoner, Vow of Poverty Monk
So mix a Tier1/2/3 class with a Tier4/5/6 class; something like Rogue/Wizard, Paladin/Sorcerer, Swashbuckler/Oracle, Barbarian/Witch, Gunslinger/Bard, Ranger/Cleric, etc. would be good choices.
Pairing two Tier 1/2/3 classes might give you far too much to keep track of, in my opinion. You'd be playing Mathfinder instead of Pathfinder.
Hope this helps.
Typically, in Gestalt games, mixing a Tier 1,2, or 3 class with a Tier 4, 5, or 6 class generates some of the most interesting/fun characters without overwhelming you as a Player trying to keep track of everything that a Tier 1/2/3 class can do. I like Power's Tier List in terms of accuracy.
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=12p6rm0f4e6egaq5cqc592q6p0&t opic=11990.0
...You know, I figured, what the heck. I have my own perspective on the Tiers, so I may as well share it.
ACG = Advanced Class Guide Playtest
Anything in red is weak for its tier. Anything in blue is strong for its tier. Not sure if there's a point to color-coding Tier 1s or Tier 6s, but I marked the vow of poverty monk in red for Tier 6 since it's so stupid it's usually in a league of its own.
Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.
Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Witch, Sorcerer (Razmiran Priest archetype, Paragon Surge spell, Mongrel Mage archetype, Mnemonic Vestment robe), Oracle (Paragon Surge spell, Mnemonic Vestment robe, Dreamed Secrets feat), Psychic (Mnemonic Esoterica discipline power, Mnemonic Vestment robe) Shaman, Arcanist
Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys
yeah, That was our worry when we came up with the game, was character that just had too much going on, and so far what we've come up with so far hasn't really been a problem in theory, since most of this is still in the planning stage, but this is very useful!!
I'll be sure to show the rest of the group this so that they can get a decent idea of what to do.
Have you seen Marshmallow's guide to the fighter? It's got good advice for any one who wants to kill monsters with cold steel.
Have you seen Marshmallow's guide to the fighter? It's got good advice for any one who wants to kill monsters with cold steel.
I have not, wouldn't mind taking a look, since i feel like i'm going to focus on the fighter stuff the first bunch of levels
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While we're posting guide links, I'm going to shamelessly self-promote. Weirdo's Guide to Gestalt, and discussion thread. Work in progress but hopefully useful.
Fighter//Oracle is a pretty good combo. We've got a Cavalier//Oracle in the party at the moment, and she mostly casts a pre-buff or two before combat, Prayer first round, then wades into melee and patches up the party afterwards.
Personally I'm a fan of reach builds for Fighter//Divine Caster combos since the AoO can give you extra attacks even on rounds when you cast (same philosophy as reach clerics).
Definitely recommend Warsighted archetype, if you can handle the extra complexity. You trade most of your revelations but can still take Extra Revelation as a feat, you can afford to spend some fixed feats to get flexible feats, and there's not that many revelations that you'd really want. Best revelations would be War Sight (initiative bonus), Surprising Charge, Iron Skin, and maybe Weapon Mastery (three feats for the price of Extra Revelation, though Greater Weapon Focus comes online a little late).
Thoughts on the curse? As a dwarf Clouded Vision and Lame are a lot less useful than usual. Tongues is a pretty painless curse.
Having an Int bonus is nice since the Fighter//Oracle only gets the 4 skill ranks.
Remember that the enemies you face in a Gestalt Campaign are also Gestalted. Min/Max the crap out of your character.
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1) Should be full BAB if you plan on attacking things ever.
2) Should have at least 4+INT skill ranks per level.
3) Should have ways to boost action economy. Don't just look to do more, look to do more at once. Get a pet, have a way to reliably full attack every round, do something with your swift actions, etc.
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I disagree that min/maxing is necessary. A lot depends on how the GM intends to build enemies - and, in fact, it's good to ask them if you should try to power up, or if they'd rather you spread your power around. ^^
Generally a good idea. In my experience there are three reasons to gestalt:
1) High power games.
2) Interesting character concepts, which often lean more towards versatility.
3) Allowing an unusually small party to do the job of a 4-person party. Important to focus on versatility and well-rounded defenses, with pets and summonings being especially valuable.
Unless the campaign is built to require obnoxious characters, which would probably be made clear at the beginning, I would go for a fun character that is versatile and adaptable. Fighters make good on this for the bonus feats and full BAB and they offer a lot of Ex abilities that are most always active once learned... So you aren't being taxed on action economy to use the fighter's abilities.
Obviously, fighters have crappy skills and crappy saves and no magic, so mating the fighter side with its better half shouldn't be too hard. A Warsighted Oracle seems like an extremely easy solution to a lot of the fighter's weaknesses.
Ah, I thought I had linked to the post . . . but I guess I forgot too. Thanks, Rednall!
I'll second the suggestion that you use a reach weapon. Dwarves get longaxes and longhammers for free, after all. Here's a link to the reach cleric, which is almost entirely applicable to a reach oracle.
Lucrene Hammer and Longhammer both work with the Foehammer archetype stuff, I believe. Reach will be nice, and you should have spiked armor for anyone who gets too close. The Longhammer is cool because it whistles as it swings through the air, but the Lucrene does two types of damage and has brace.
Brace is pretty situational, as is piercing damage. (And freedom of movement is on the oracle list . . . how often do adventures take an aquatic bent at low levels?) The longhammer has higher base damage then the lucerne, too.
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And it whistles.
Barbarian/Sorcerers are fun. Armor requirements for both don't interfere with spells too badly, and Barbs are just fun all around.
If you go this route, take the feat Mad Magic. It lets you cast spells even in a rage.
My current character is a multiclassed Hunter/Unchained Rogue that rides her companion as a mount. She's built around flanking and AoOs and does a LOT of damage. A gestalt version will eliminate the need for Boon Companion and won't delay Dex-To-Damage or spell progression so you will be doing even more damage.