Player Core 2 Preview: The Swashbuckler, Remastered

Even if I was the one arguing that one of the problems of the swashbuckler was that it was weaker than a rogue in DPR terms I have to say that after all the buffs it received I don't have as much problem with it since the class is functional now, and to be fair, most classes lag behind rogues in terms of DPR anyways so as long as the class works I can look over it.

Yeah a big difference between the Rogue and the Swashbuckler is not "the swashbuckler does as much damage" but "the swashbuckler is much more tanky and has better support options than the rogue."

The weirdness with the saves aside rogues are a bit squishy and don't really offer support beyond "they can debuff."

I think Swashbuckler is now a Samurai...

I’m cool with tankier and less damage as the Swash’s thing. They also always have +1 or +2 circumstance to any check with bravado trait making them the “Skill Focus” class when it comes to Strength, Dexterity, and Charisma.

Yeah, that +1/+2 to skills with the bravado trait is IMO more than enough to compensate having less damage than a rogue.

Investigators in the other hand...

parry and riposte feat line are as weak as before

now riposte feat line as the main selling point of swashbuckler are much weaker than nimble strike at level 10

Yeah a big difference between the Rogue and the Swashbuckler is not "the swashbuckler does as much damage" but "the swashbuckler is much more tanky and has better support options than the rogue."

The weirdness with the saves aside rogues are a bit squishy and don't really offer support beyond "they can debuff."

And better mobility. Honestly swashbucklers feel less like rogues than monks to me.

I feel like rogues are, in class role, closer to rangers and thaumaturges than to swashbucklers, if that means anything.

BadLuckGamer just dropped the giga sized Swashbuckler video.

This is the most buffed class in the system. Swashbucklers are now way less one trick pony thanks to the huge variety of bravado traits. A very noticeable feat is one that lets you draw a weapon and perform a finisher in one action. And it can be any finisher you qualify for.

Yooooo. I am watching this too, and the buffs are way more than I realized at first glance. Way more than just bravado. So many of these changes are easy to overlook if you skim, like precise strike applying even without panache.

I think the Swashbuckler will probably be fun to play now, which is a big improvement. I would still prefer if so much of their damage wasn’t tied to Finishers. In particular, they get such a huge boost to their DPR from Finisher crits, that it skews things more than a little looking at the overall DPR. When an actual round doesn’t feel as great if you don’t crit. But basically always being able to generate panache, getting the static precise strike bonus regardless, and changes to abilities to make them feel more like a swashbuckler, it’s a significantly better class than it used to be. I look forward to trying mine out after the PFS rebuild. I’ve never disliked the concept I have for the character. Playing him, on the other hand, has rarely felt good. I hope that’s about to change.

Yeah, that +1/+2 to skills with the bravado trait is IMO more than enough to compensate having less damage than a rogue.

Investigators in the other hand...

Remaster Investigators also get +1/+2 and supposedly eventually +3. Their Devise a Strategem is actually much more lenient that it was before upon further examination. So as long as they are proactively behaving as an investigator, they should almost always have a free action DaS.

Investigators aren't about damage anyway. They are about being proactive during quests and in doing so are able to use their superior intellect to foresee how their offensive action will go. The vast majority of the time, a remastered Investigator should only have to pay the action cost if they aren't behaving as they should.

I think Swashbuckler is now a Samurai...

if you are ok with not using a katana on your samurai then yes, absolutely

exequiel759 wrote:

Yeah, that +1/+2 to skills with the bravado trait is IMO more than enough to compensate having less damage than a rogue.

Investigators in the other hand...

Remaster Investigators also get +1/+2 and supposedly eventually +3. Their Devise a Strategem is actually much more lenient that it was before upon further examination. So as long as they are proactively behaving as an investigator, they should almost always have a free action DaS.

Investigators aren't about damage anyway. They are about being proactive during quests and in doing so are able to use their superior intellect to foresee how their offensive action will go. The vast majority of the time, a remastered Investigator should only have to pay the action cost if they aren't behaving as they should.

One of the the problems I have with the new investigator is that, even if less than before, it still relies on some degree of GM fiat for certain things to work as they should. At least the class text somehow implies how the GM should handle the situations, so while its a problem because GM fiat in a system such as PF2e is IMO bad, its at least a problem that a GM that isn't a d-bag will handle appropiately. The other problem I have is that it is fairly easy to build an inefficient if you don't build around skills that have actions that can be used in combat. That was a problem before too, but since in average you'll have an extra action when compared to before and that's its likely that every so often you'll have to use your 3 actions for skill actions in a particular round you'll need to have something to actually use those actions for.

For example, a rogue (usually) gets a way to proc off-guard from their subclass, and even then they just need to flank, while the swashbuckler after the Remaster has like a bizillion ways to gain panache now which don't even need you to succeed at something to gain panache in the first place. If you want to build an investigator around RK for example and take increases in Arcana, Occultism, Nature, Religion, and Society you'll run out very quickly of things to ask your GM in a particular encounter. This isn't a huge problem per se because investigators have enough increases to build as many combat skills they want to, but that fact that you can technically create a suboptimal character for a class that, even in its best day, is weaker than most martials feels really weird to me.

I do agree that Investigator can fumble pretty badly if the player does not bother to prepare extra things they can do. I would say that it is not unlike a caster in that sense. That being said, every subclass is dedicated on an activity to focus on.

But remaster did lead the player to this conclusion better because of Skill Strategem.

And of course, the subclasses always did this pre-remaster.

Alchemical Sciences to prepare useful alchemical elixirs and tools.
Empiricism to Recall Knowledge efficiently.
Forensic Medicine to be a solid martial healer with little investment.
Interrogation to focus on Charisma skills.

And GM fiat is a small problem. I saw a YouTube comment that said they're only allowing Investigators to use free action DaS against mini-bosses or above which is absolutely ridiculous use of GM fiat.

I GM'd forgetting about the free action devise and my new player said she said she would rather just not use it anymore with how punishing that ability feels.

A GM should for the most part reward the free DaS as long as the investigator player is playing the investigation minigame. It is good role and rollplay. Players are rewarded heavily for indulging in the class fantasy. That is good design, even if it relies on fiat that a game like this tends to avoid.

While not as blatantly an upgrade as the new Swash is, I like it a lot and the class has a good place in the game now.

But anyway, maybe I should just make an Investigator thread before I go off topic.

Just saw the BadluckGamer vid on the swashbuckler archetype. So, is this a misprint? If the swashbuckler's panache no longer gives a bonus to speed and skill checks, does it have any use at all at Level 2? Or is it just inert? Both the APG Swashbuckler archetype and the PC2 archetype reference panache. Is training in 1 skill worth a whole feat if that's all the class feat offers?

Just saw the BadluckGamer vid on the swashbuckler archetype. So, is this a misprint? If the swashbuckler's panache no longer gives a bonus to speed and skill checks, does it have any use at all at Level 2? Or is it just inert? Both the APG Swashbuckler archetype and the PC2 archetype reference panache. Is training in 1 skill worth a whole feat if that's all the class feat offers?

The Swashbuckler dedication no longer gives you the speed and skill bonus. Panache is only used to activate finishers, so you'd need the ability to generate it to use your finishers.

It is comparable to the fighter dedication in that it gives you training to one skill and not much else (the general feat "weapon proficiency" is better than the fighter dedication if you want access to martial weapons, it auto-increases at level 11 but at level 12 the fighter dedication costs a feat to increase to expert.

Generally dedication feats are a tax to get stuff later on in the archetype. Things like Goading Feint, Extravagant Parry, and Opportune Riposte are useful on several other classes but the multiclass swash I have planned doesn't interact with panache at all.

moosher12 wrote:

Just saw the BadluckGamer vid on the swashbuckler archetype. So, is this a misprint? If the swashbuckler's panache no longer gives a bonus to speed and skill checks, does it have any use at all at Level 2? Or is it just inert? Both the APG Swashbuckler archetype and the PC2 archetype reference panache. Is training in 1 skill worth a whole feat if that's all the class feat offers?

The Swashbuckler dedication no longer gives you the speed and skill bonus. Panache is only used to activate finishers, so you'd need the ability to generate it to use your finishers.

It is comparable to the fighter dedication in that it gives you training to one skill and not much else (the general feat "weapon proficiency" is better than the fighter dedication if you want access to martial weapons, it auto-increases at level 11 but at level 12 the fighter dedication costs a feat to increase to expert.

Generally dedication feats are a tax to get stuff later on in the archetype. Things like Goading Feint, Extravagant Parry, and Opportune Riposte are useful on several other classes but the multiclass swash I have planned doesn't interact with panache at all.

Yeah... Think I'm home ruling to include Stylish Combatant in the Swashbuckler Dedication in my games. Does not sit right with me having a panache that is inert for 2 levels minimum after you get panache. Unless people were complaining that the legacy Swashbuckler archetype was overtuned, I see no reason to at least have a basic Level 2 panache functionality. If it was just a speed boost and no skill bonus or vice versa, I'd have been willing to accept that.

Swashbuckler Dedication should at the very least give a nerfed Panache speed bonus. I imagine they wanted to avoid making other classes using the panache skill buffs better than Swashbuckler, but just getting nothing from it sucks.

I think the thing is that a lot of dedication feats for martial classes are straight up bad feats. We haven't fixed the fact that the fighter dedication is just "1 skill" for a bunch of classes and "1 skill and a proficiency bump worse than a general feat gives" for the rest.

A better fix is to patch in *something* to do with panache that's not "do finishers."

Yeah, as a brief aside I gotta agree fighter should have more. I was looking over, and most archetypes have at least something, even if it's small, beyond the skill increase. Ranger gets Hunt Prey, Rogue gets Surprise attack, and an additional skill training, Barbarian gets a nerfed Rage, Champion gets an additional skill, and an armor proficiency, Investigator gets Pursue a Lead and Clue In, Monk gets Powerful Fist, among the remastered classes. This leaves Fighter and Swashbuckler alone in this regard.

Was actually contemplating giving the fighter archetype a buff as a home rule. I had two ideas I was playing with.

1) It would grant Reactive Strike, but with a 1d4 round delay. And Reactive Striker brings back normal use.

2) It wound grant a weapon proficiency. Either martial weapon proficiency if you only had simple weapon proficiency, or advanced weapon proficiency if you had martial weapon proficiency.

Guess on the note of Fighter, was talking to it with my players. We came up with this if anyone is interested.

Fighter Dedication
Traits: Archetype, Dedication, Multiclass
Prerequisites: Strength +2, Dexterity +2
You become trained in martial weapons. If you already were trained in martial weapons, you gain training in one advanced weapon of your choice as well. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in any type of weapon, you also gain that proficiency with weapons types granted to you by this feat. You become trained in your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics; if you are already trained in both of these skills, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You become trained in fighter class DC.

Guess on the note of Fighter, was talking to it with my players. We came up with this if anyone is interested.

Fighter Dedication
Traits: Archetype, Dedication, Multiclass
Prerequisites: Strength +2, Dexterity +2
You become trained in martial weapons. If you already were trained in martial weapons, you gain training in one advanced weapon of your choice as well. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in any type of weapon, you also gain that proficiency with weapons types granted to you by this feat. You become trained in your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics; if you are already trained in both of these skills, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You become trained in fighter class DC.

I would be honestly surprised if fighter dedication doesn't receive an errata to work like this now that the champion dedicaiton does exactly this but with armor instead (and it still has other benefits on top of that).

The difference between fighter and champion dedication is that we already have an archetype that comes with full scaling armor proficiency, the sentinel. There is no archetype that comes with full scaling in all martial weapons, which may or may not have balance reasons.

I could see the fighter dedication give trained martial at 1 and expert at 11, though, to make it equal the general feat. Or it could outright give the general feat so bards don't feel left out.

I think alchemist and monk are the only remaining martials who don't get full martial weapons so limiting the fighter dedication to caster scaling seems like a good enough compromise.

The difference between fighter and champion dedication is that we already have an archetype that comes with full scaling armor proficiency, the sentinel. There is no archetype that comes with full scaling in all martial weapons, which may or may not have balance reasons.

I could see the fighter dedication give trained martial at 1 and expert at 11, though, to make it equal the general feat. Or it could outright give the general feat so bards don't feel left out.

I think alchemist and monk are the only remaining martials who don't get full martial weapons so limiting the fighter dedication to caster scaling seems like a good enough compromise.

Isn’t the obvious solution to have the Fighter dedication give trained in one group of weapons? To emulate the Fighter Weapon Mastery?

A class feat should never be equivalent to a general feat. Those are supposed to be on the low ranks of powers (and the reason why I don't like at all that warpriests now have a feat to gain heavy armor when there's a general feat that does exactly the same thing). Also, having martial proficiency in the new post-Remaster age isn't really a big deal. The class that would want to use martial weapons already have it, and even classes that aren't martials have it too (bards), with the few classes that don't have access to them having otherwise easy access through other methods (the general feat and the weapon familiarity ancestry feats).

Fighter Dedication has to give scaling proficiencies in martial weapons because that's the whole shtick of the class, being good with weapons, much like how champions give it with armor because they are the tanky armored guys (at least until the guardian comes up). I think the more interesting question is what Diverse Weapon Expert will do though, because Paizo isn't going to remove a feat now that they have already printed it for the remaster.

The only thing I can think of that wouldn't be IMO that overpowered would be to choose a weapon group and you become proficient in all the advanced weapons from that group. Nobody would take it because nobody is going to wait 12 levels to use a particular weapon, less so when there's other ways around it way earlier, but its not like nobody takes Diverse Weapon Expert anyways. Either that or they give you a flexible feat like Combat Flexibility.

The really galling thing about the fighter archetype is that there's a level 12 archetype feat that gives expert in martial weapons. The level 1 general feat "Weapon Proficiency" automatically gives expert at level 11. So the archetype costs 2 class feats to give the equivalent of 1 general feat one level later.

But this thread is about the swashbuckler and we can fix a potential issue with both multiclass and normal swashbucklers by "getting a second outlet for panache." Like the major pain point for the Swashbuckler in legacy was that it was too hard to gain panache in hard fights, but they have fixed that emphatically. Now it's possible to gain panache twice on your turn and multiple times when it's not your turn, but it's only possible to spend it once per turn.

A house rule I am considering is to allow you to spend panache to reroll a check with the bravado trait and if you do this you do not gain panache (but you do get the result of the check.)

Originally was going to remove Diverse Weapon expert, but reading your comments gave me another idea. Let me know if this sounds reasonable. I'm torn between A and B.

Diverse Weapon Expert Feat 12 (Version A: Let's you specialize in a weapon group, potentially grants critical specialization?)
Traits: Archetype
Prerequisites: Fighter Dedication, expert in any kind of weapon or unarmed attack.
Choose one weapon group. Your proficiency rank increases to expert with simple weapons, martial weapons, advanced weapons, and unarmed attacks in that group. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you master or greater proficiency in any type of weapon, you also gain proficiency with weapon types granted to you by this feat.

Additionally, I'm tempted to add "You gain access to the critical specialization effects with these weapons." given the high level.

Diverse Weapon Expert Feat 12 (Version B: Scaling advanced weapon proficiency)
Traits: Archetype
Prerequisites: Fighter Dedication, expert in any kind of weapon or unarmed attack.
Your proficiency rank increases to expert with advanced weapons. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in any type of weapon, you also gain that proficiency with weapons types granted to you by this feat.

As for Swashbuckler, I drafted these two. A more true to original form one, and one with the nerf.

Swashbuckler Dedication Feat 2 (Legacy Emulating)
Traits: Archetype, Multiclass
Prerequisites: Charisma +2, Dexterity +2
Choose a swashbuckler’s style. You gain both the panache class feature and the stylish combatant class feature, and you apply the bravado trait to Tumble Through and any actions indicated in your swashbuckler style, allowing you to gain panache. You become trained in Acrobatics or the skill associated with your style. If you were already trained in both skills, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You also become trained in swashbuckler class DC. You don’t gain any other effects of your chosen style.

Swashbuckler Dedication Feat 2 (Nerfed)
Traits: Archetype, Multiclass
Prerequisites: Charisma +2, Dexterity +2
Choose a swashbuckler’s style. You gain both the panache class feature, and you apply the bravado trait to Tumble Through and any actions indicated in your swashbuckler style, allowing you to gain panache. You gain the stylish combatant class feature, except the stylish combatant class feature only grants the +5-foot status bonus to your Speeds. You become trained in Acrobatics or the skill associated with your style. If you were already trained in both skills, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You also become trained in swashbuckler class DC. You don’t gain any other effects of your chosen style.

Option C for Diverse Weapon Expert

Diverse Weapon Expert Feat 12 (Version C: nerfed Scaling advanced weapon proficiency)
Traits: Archetype
Prerequisites: Fighter Dedication, expert in any kind of weapon or unarmed attack.
You become trained in advanced weapons. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you master proficiency with any type of weapon, you gain expert proficiency with advanced weapons. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you legendary proficiency with any type of weapon, you gain master proficiency with advanced weapons.

Option C for Diverse Weapon Expert

Diverse Weapon Expert Feat 12 (Version C: nerfed Scaling advanced weapon proficiency)
Traits: Archetype
Prerequisites: Fighter Dedication, expert in any kind of weapon or unarmed attack.
You become trained in advanced weapons. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you master proficiency with any type of weapon, you gain expert proficiency with advanced weapons. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you legendary proficiency with any type of weapon, you gain master proficiency with advanced weapons.

I like this one way more. The other one was redudant with the dedication effect and if you are 12th level you can alreaedy take Advanced Weapon Training with the Advanced Maneuver archetype feat. Either that or version B are IMO the ways to go about a replacement for Diverse Weapon Expert.

I like this one way more. The other one was redudant with the dedication effect and if you are 12th level you can alreaedy take Advanced Weapon Training with the Advanced Maneuver archetype feat. Either that or version B are IMO the ways to go about a replacement for Diverse Weapon Expert.

Excellent Pull! I appreciate you pointing that out. Version C would be best then. As you said. A is made redundant by Advanced Weapon Training, but Advanced Weapon Training would be made redundant against Version B. Version C and Advanced Weapon Training could at least be considered side grades against each other. Think I'll use C.

I would like to see one or more additional ways to spend panache. One possibility is:

If you have Panache when you take a reaction, you can expend your panache, and you retain your ability to use your reaction, but can not immediately use another reaction for the same triggering action.

I would like to see one or more additional ways to spend panache. One possibility is:

If you have Panache when you take a reaction, you can expend your panache, and you retain your ability to use your reaction, but can not immediately use another reaction for the same triggering action.

Given that additional types of finishers are added as feats, I think it makes sense to add other uses of panache as feats as well. So this could be a feat.

I'd probably put it at level 4, the level after you get opportune riposte. there are higher level class feats that just give you an extra reaction, so this would clearly need to be lower level. But until you have access to opportune riposte, you don't really need it, and if you are going for a reaction heavy build, you are probably picking up attack of opportunity, I mean reactive strike, at 6th level

Hello people, a question, playing with Swash, what should I expect from the class?What would be its cornerstone, what makes it unique? Damage? Support? Maneuver? You know that kind of thing? In a game using FA for example, can I play healer with Swash? Grateful!

Hello people, a question, playing with Swash, what should I expect from the class?What would be its cornerstone, what makes it unique? Damage? Support? Maneuver? You know that kind of thing? In a game using FA for example, can I play healer with Swash? Grateful!

Swashbuckler trades the versatility and damage of a rogue for better survivability and being exceptionally good at skills in combat. Any roll with the Bravado trait gets a +1 circumstance bonus. At 9th level it increases to +2.

So first off you need to decide if your Swashbuckler is going to focus on damage or not. If they are you need to decide if you’re going for one bit hit or multiple attacks.

For big hits you want to get the biggest damage die or a trait like deadly or fatal on your weapons. Make sure you apply conditions and get flat footed. Your go to finisher will likely be Bleeding Finisher at 8th level.

Or you can go Normal + Finisher. This DRP focused Swahbuckler highly values an agile weapon and Combination Finisher and Precise Finisher feats.

If you don’t want to focus on damage you can focus on maneuvers and the variety of Bravado actions Swashbucklers gain to debuff their foes. A favorite of mine is taking Goading Feint, Enjoy the Shadow and Antagonize to debuff the hell out of an enemy and force it to come to you. Combine Reactive Strike, Trips, Disarms, and Grapples to turn yourself into a Defender. A Swashbuckler who really wants to forgo damage all together eventually gets Derring-Do to roll twice on their debuffs/control/tanking abilities.

As for a Healer Swash there is no innate synergy besides a Finisher that gives temporary hit points to the party. If you did want to play one you would take Rascal Style to not have to increase Charisma or Strength at all. Just focus on Dex, Wisdom, and Con. Then grab the Medic Archetype, and eventually Blessed One.

LordeAlvenaharr wrote:

Hello people, a question, playing with Swash, what should I expect from the class?What would be its cornerstone, what makes it unique? Damage? Support? Maneuver? You know that kind of thing? In a game using FA for example, can I play healer with Swash? Grateful!

Swashbuckler trades the versatility and damage of a rogue for better survivability and being exceptionally good at skills in combat. Any roll with the Bravado trait gets a +1 circumstance bonus. At 9th level it increases to +2.

So first off you need to decide if your Swashbuckler is going to focus on damage or not. If they are you need to decide if you’re going for one bit hit or multiple attacks.

For big hits you want to get the biggest damage die or a trait like deadly or fatal on your weapons. Make sure you apply conditions and get flat footed. Your go to finisher will likely be Bleeding Finisher at 8th level.

Or you can go Normal + Finisher. This DRP focused Swahbuckler highly values an agile weapon and Combination Finisher and Precise Finisher feats.

If you don’t want to focus on damage you can focus on maneuvers and the variety of Bravado actions Swashbucklers gain to debuff their foes. A favorite of mine is taking Goading Feint, Enjoy the Shadow and Antagonize to debuff the hell out of an enemy and force it to come to you. Combine Reactive Strike, Trips, Disarms, and Grapples to turn yourself into a Defender. A Swashbuckler who really wants to forgo damage all together eventually gets Derring-Do to roll twice on their debuffs/control/tanking abilities.

As for a Healer Swash there is no innate synergy besides a Finisher that gives temporary hit points to the party. If you did want to play one you would take Rascal Style to not have to increase Charisma or Strength at all. Just focus on Dex, Wisdom, and Con. Then grab the Medic Archetype, and eventually Blessed One.

Thank you very much for your response and help, I'll take a closer look at Swash!

Swashbuckler trades the versatility and damage of a rogue for better survivability and being exceptionally good at skills in combat. Any roll with the Bravado trait gets a +1 circumstance bonus. At 9th level it increases to +2.

This is correct but also-

It's kind of wild to me that "worse damage but better at certain skills" is the direction they took the swash relative to the rogue.

TheWayofPie wrote:

Swashbuckler trades the versatility and damage of a rogue for better survivability and being exceptionally good at skills in combat. Any roll with the Bravado trait gets a +1 circumstance bonus. At 9th level it increases to +2.

This is correct but also-

It's kind of wild to me that "worse damage but better at certain skills" is the direction they took the swash relative to the rogue.

It is a little strange.

I guess they decided Skill Versatility vs Skill Specialization.

The Swashbuckler is also a good off-tank, which is something the rogue should absolutely never be doing.

The main difference is that the Swashbuckler wants all of the attention and the Rogue wants very little.

TheWayofPie wrote:

Swashbuckler trades the versatility and damage of a rogue for better survivability and being exceptionally good at skills in combat. Any roll with the Bravado trait gets a +1 circumstance bonus. At 9th level it increases to +2.

This is correct but also-

It's kind of wild to me that "worse damage but better at certain skills" is the direction they took the swash relative to the rogue.

Honestly does make sense to me. The core reason to play the Swashbuckler is "I have a particular skill action that I want to do all the time, and I want to be rewarded for doing so". The character who went out of their way to dance in combat probably should be better at dancing than a character who is just good at skills in general.

If you want to do a Swashbuckler with a side of Medic, I'd look at a support build utilizing All for One and Guardian's deflection. Eventually revitalizing finish would be nice. You stand next to your allies protecting them with Guardian's deflection and healing them when that doesn't help.