ok, now ive poured myself all over all the forums all over so many sites, and ive wasted many hours at work trying to puzzle out the answer to my question, and i think i found the answer but i wanted to make sure that i typed it out nice and easy clear as day for the other peeps that follow me.
how do the rules work with sneak attack+pounce?
does the pounce automatically grant sneak attack?
do any of my attacks get denied thier precision damage from sneak attack?
how exactly does this combination work by the rules?
heres the answer i found.
pounce allows you to make a full attack at the end of your charge. but not with all your iterative attacks, (sorry twf guys) and with your entire natural attack routine.
sneak attack precision damage specifically states that only the first attack in a routine that qualifies for sneak attack damage will actually deal said damage, but only if the starting attack was a sstandard, or a move action to begin. in contrast. all attacks in a full attack will be allowed to achieve sneak attack damage provided they connect.
so. i read this in this way. as long as its a full attack with a natural attack routine. you can attack with all your attacks and have sneak attack applied to each one if the attacks qualify for the damage boost.
pounce allows the all powerful sneak attack with the entire natural attack routine at the end of a charge. so charge in and full attack an opponent for nasty damage.
but that ties into the question i had to begin with,
does the pounce grant the ability to apply sneak attack damage?
my answer is no. you can use the pounce however to maneuver yourself into a flanking position. therefore granting the sneak attack damage. or you can use your pounce in the surprise round(improved initiative comes in handy here) to take out an opponent before they've even acted yet. because as long as its the first round in combat and they have not yet acted, then they are considered flat footed. and therefore granting sneak attack damage.
with a vivisectionist beastmorph master chymist build that the dm has allowed to progress sneak attack instead of bomb damage, this gets nasty fast. heres how.
vivisectioinist for the sneak attack progression, beautiful.
beastmorph level 10 for pounce. gorgeous.
use discoveries for vestigial arm twice, two extra arms.
use feral mutagen to give you claws and a bite.
(but what if you already have racial claws and bite???)
heres the kicker, use a race like skinwalker, werebear, wereboar, etc etc. you get these natural primary attacks at level 1.
then use the vestigial arms discoveries to give you extra arms, and the feral mutagen discovery to give you claws and a bite,
while under the effects of the mutagen your bite would scale up a damage die, from 1d6 to 1d8. and you get 2 claws 1d6, 1d6. but your racial claws are 1d4, 1d4. whatever are we to do here.
use the feral mutagen to apply the new claws to your new limbs.
the rules state that the vestigial limbs dont give you extra attacks, but it does say that you can use them as part of your attack routine as long as they are holding weapons. claws are weapons, therefore arming the new arms to be able to participate in my natural attack routine.
so my routine is BITE/CLAW/CLAW/claw/claw. lowercase representing the lower damage die claws.
with this this cool thing combined with the pounce sneak attack?
this is how this class is meant to be played. yay optimization.
now im turning it over to you. enjoy.
please leave comments with advice.
p.s. this was a 6 am rant when i was overtired so i apologise for the wall of text.
Pounce does not automatically grant sneak attack on its own, but if you can pounce and meet the sneak attack requirements then you can get sneak attack on every attack.
If the enemy is being denied dex to AC or if you can get a flank then you can get sneak attack.
If there was another question in there write it in the next comment. :)
Mostly i wanted it written and spelled out for sure in these forums so nobody has to search it all up again like i did
Mostly i wanted it written and spelled out for sure in these forums so nobody has to search it all up again like i did
When I saw the wall of text I answered the most obvious question. That is why I said if there was another question you can ask it in another comment. :)
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pounce allows you to make a full attack at the end of your charge. but not with all your iterative attacks, (sorry twf guys) and with your entire natural attack routine.
>> Full attack means you get all your iterative attacks.
sneak attack precision damage specifically states that only the first attack in a routine that qualifies for sneak attack damage will actually deal said damage, but only if the starting attack was a sstandard, or a move action to begin. in contrast. all attacks in a full attack will be allowed to achieve sneak attack damage provided they connect.
>> Wrong you get your sneak attack on every attack that qualifies. For example if you pounce a flat footed opponent then you would get sneak damage on every attack. Now if you were to pounce out of invisibility you would only get sneak damage on the first attack as invis breaks after the first attack and therefore the rest of the attacks do not qualify for sneak damage.
ok, now ive poured myself all over all the forums all over so many sites, and ive wasted many hours at work trying to puzzle out the answer to my question, and i think i found the answer but i wanted to make sure that i typed it out nice and easy clear as day for the other peeps that follow me.
how do the rules work with sneak attack+pounce?
does the pounce automatically grant sneak attack?
do any of my attacks get denied thier precision damage from sneak attack?
how exactly does this combination work by the rules?
heres the answer i found.
pounce allows you to make a full attack at the end of your charge. but not with all your iterative attacks, (sorry twf guys) and with your entire natural attack routine.
sneak attack precision damage specifically states that only the first attack in a routine that qualifies for sneak attack damage will actually deal said damage, but only if the starting attack was a sstandard, or a move action to begin. in contrast. all attacks in a full attack will be allowed to achieve sneak attack damage provided they connect.
so. i read this in this way. as long as its a full attack with a natural attack routine. you can attack with all your attacks and have sneak attack applied to each one if the attacks qualify for the damage boost.
pounce allows the all powerful sneak attack with the entire natural attack routine at the end of a charge. so charge in and full attack an opponent for nasty damage.
but that ties into the question i had to begin with,
does the pounce grant the ability to apply sneak attack damage?
my answer is no. you can use the pounce however to maneuver yourself into a flanking position. therefore granting the sneak attack damage. or you can use your pounce in the surprise round(improved initiative comes in handy here) to take out an opponent before they've even acted yet. because as long as its the first round in combat and they have not yet acted, then they are considered flat footed. and therefore granting sneak attack...
Pounce doesn't automatically grant sneak attack. If a rogue with the Scout archetype managed to get pounce somehow they could get it on the first attack of a pounce starting at Level 4.
None of your attacks are denied their precision damage on a pounce.
Pounce allows you to make as many attacks as you normally could during a full attack, so TWF and spells/abilities such as Haste will function normally.
Any attack against an enemy denied their Dex bonus or flanked will qualify for sneak attack damage, not just the first. The one situation this does not apply is for volleys like the spells Fiery Shuriken and Scorching Ray - if multiple attacks are made with a single standard action typically just one gets to apply sneak attack if it qualifies.
Using Pounce to set up a flank can be tough because it still works like a charge, meaning you have to move in a straight line to the nearest square you threaten the enemy at. If an ally is directly opposite of the enemy then it'll work.
Overall, getting pounce on a sneak attacker is hard because it isn't a common ability for classes to achieve. However, if a rogue took the TWF feats and somehow got pounce, they could charge an enemy before that enemy's turn and get sneak attack on all of their attacks. Which would hurt.
Why would scouts only get sneak attack on their first charge? Is it related to Lance/Pounce?If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack.
That's only for their lv8 ability. The charge doesn't limit it to only one attack.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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That's only for their lv8 ability. The charge doesn't limit it to only one attack.
So your logic is the level 8 ability should be more limited than the 4th level ability?
Charge normally can't deal more than one attack, how do you know that you can do more than one and not be limited by the level 8 ability that might have more than one attack possible? Say like Cleave.
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In short, if you think the level 4 ability will allow sneak attack on multiple attacks with pounce then you will run into table variance because some will have a different interpretation of RAW.
That's only for their lv8 ability. The charge doesn't limit it to only one attack.So your logic is the level 8 ability should be more limited than the 4th level ability?
Charge normally can't deal more than one attack, how do you know that you can do more than one and not be limited by the level 8 ability that might have more than one attack possible? Say like Cleave.
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In short, if you think the level 4 ability will allow sneak attack on multiple attacks with pounce then you will run into table variance because some will have a different interpretation of RAW.
I have to agree with Chess it only says it for the level 8 ability not in the level 4 ability so if they charge the Scout would be able to deal sneak as if their opponent was flat-footed on the attacks after that charge and if they had pounce that would apply to all of the attacks they could make, but it wouldn't apply if they just moved more than 10 feet which would only get one sneak attack if they were able to take multiple attacks after moving more than 10 feet.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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if they charge the Scout would be able to deal sneak as if their opponent was flat-footed on the attacks after that charge and if they had pounce that would apply to all of the attacks they could make
I'm fine if you GM and that is your RAW.
It isn't mine.
If you'd like to know which one is the one true RAW, make a FAQ and I'll click on it.
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if they charge the Scout would be able to deal sneak as if their opponent was flat-footed on the attacks after that charge and if they had pounce that would apply to all of the attacks they could makeI'm fine if you GM and that is your RAW.
It isn't mine.
If you'd like to know which one is the one true RAW, make a FAQ and I'll click on it.
The one true RAW is the totality of the Rules As they are Written. In this case it is clear that the level 4 ability does not forbid more than one sneak attack on a charge, while the level 8 ability forbids more than one sneak attack on a move.
These abilities have different triggers. A charge is more limited than a move, and ironically it is easier to gain a full attack on a charge than it is if you move more than 10' in a round.
A charge also has a built in accuracy bonus and AC penalty to simulate the rushing attack putting everything into offense to catch your for off-guard. It is thematic that such a rushing flurry may distract someone more than the more measured approach allowed by the level 8 ability.
It may very well be that the rules intended for the level four ability to share the limitations of the level 8 ability. But it may not, as I have stated, a charge and a move are different things.
Either way, disallowing the level four ability on a pounce is a house rule, and is most certainly not the rules as written.
But I would welcome a FAQ to help reduce table variation, and I don't have a personal stake in this either way.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Either way, disallowing the level four ability on a pounce is a house rule, and is most certainly not the rules as written.
That is a "one true RAW" stance. I don't agree with those in general.
I also don't agree that is what the rules say, as a charge is normally written to allow only one attack. The entire rules system of D&D/Pathfinder tends to avoid "gotcha" rules interactions. Doubles doubled don't become quads. This isn't like magic where it does become a quad and you can get infinite loops.
That's only for their lv8 ability. The charge doesn't limit it to only one attack.So your logic is the level 8 ability should be more limited than the 4th level ability?
Charge normally can't deal more than one attack, how do you know that you can do more than one and not be limited by the level 8 ability that might have more than one attack possible? Say like Cleave.
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In short, if you think the level 4 ability will allow sneak attack on multiple attacks with pounce then you will run into table variance because some will have a different interpretation of RAW.
The difference makes perfect sense to me.
Level 4 ability is keyed off of charging. When a Scout charges, they treat the target as if the target were flat-footed. Pounce is also keyed to charging. When you charge (with Pounce), you get to make a full attack. So a Scout at 4th level who has pounce gets to take advantage of whatever abilities are tied to charging.
Level 8 ability has nothing to do with charging. The Scout simply has to move more than 10' to treat the target as flat-footed. Furthermore, the ability explicitly states that it only applies to one attack. Since it's not keyed to charging, Pounce is irrelevant.
Level 8: If you move >10', the target is flat-footed, but only as to first attack.
Level 4: If you charge, the target is flat-footed against your charge.
I see no reason why Pounce should not apply to the level 4 ability.
At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
The ability refers to the single attack made as part of the Charge action. I think the existence of Pounce may not have been taken into account when this was written and although I personally think it's clear a FAQ may be helpful here.