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I think the "poison as a move action" is what bumped it up to feat status.
But it only applies to the gore attack, so you basically have a quickly poisonable knife with a worse crit, no iterative attacks, and no way to magically improve it that costs a feat and requires you to be at least 3rd and an expensive mask to use.
Don't get me wrong, I think the concept of this feat is cool but it's literally a slightly better alignment locked feat version of Toothy before you factor all the other above stuff in.
Creative Director
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I would hardly call a feat that gives you an entirley new attack crappy at all. The main benefit of the Spirit Oni Master feat is not the poison side (that's a nice side effect) but is, in fact, that additional natural attack. Especially since it's a gore attack, and doesn't require you to sacrifice a hand or manufactured weapon attack, or frankly, ANY sacrifice of an existing body part.
The fact that this feat gives you an entirley new attack is what makes it strong.
It's not a great feat for a low-Strength character or a character who doesn't fight. But for a character who's got a high Strength and focuses on melee fighting, it's VERY strong, since it gives you one more attack in a full-attack action. With a good Strength modifier, this can be a significant advantage.
Comparing it to the "Toothy" trait is, in my opinion, unfair, since I feel that trait is itself too good to be a trait—granting an additional attack is a significant advantage, and whenever I've seen the toothy trait in play, I've regretted allowing it as a trait, frankly. The problem here, if there is indeed a problem, is that Toothy is too good. :-P
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Well, does poisoning a weapon provoke? Being able to spam it during a fight would be useful, especially for races that produce their own.
As far as I know yes? The rules for attacks of opportunity don't specifically call out poisons but it uses the same action as applying an oil, which I'd call it's closest facsimile, which does provoke. This though still assumes that you have it in hand to apply during combat, if the poison is actually in your belt you're going to be spending another move action to pull it from your belt at least which means you're looking at an attack every other round at best in most cases barring holding a handful of toxic chemicals in your off hand every fight.
Even if that weren't a problem your still looking at a dropped move action every round for the chance at a d4+str and what is likely a low DC poison, d4+1/2 str if you are fighting with it as an offhand weapon.
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My first book!But not your last!
Great work, btw. Thanks for your efforts on this.
Thank you! ^_^
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I would hardly call a feat that gives you an entirley new attack crappy at all. The main benefit of the Spirit Oni Master feat is not the poison side (that's a nice side effect) but is, in fact, that additional natural attack. Especially since it's a gore attack, and doesn't require you to sacrifice a hand or manufactured weapon attack, or frankly, ANY sacrifice of an existing body part.
The fact that this feat gives you an entirley new attack is what makes it strong.
It's not a great feat for a low-Strength character or a character who doesn't fight. But for a character who's got a high Strength and focuses on melee fighting, it's VERY strong, since it gives you one more attack in a full-attack action. With a good Strength modifier, this can be a significant advantage.
Comparing it to the "Toothy" trait is, in my opinion, unfair, since I feel that trait is itself too good to be a trait—granting an additional attack is a significant advantage, and whenever I've seen the toothy trait in play, I've regretted allowing it as a trait, frankly. The problem here, if there is indeed a problem, is that Toothy is too good. :-P
But I can already get another extra attack a dozen other ways that are often better than this. Lesser Fiend Totem, Feral Mutagen, changeling race, Skinwalkers, Ragebred, literally any playable race that currently has a bite attack, a scroll of alter self (or a friend to throw it on you), and Improved Unarmed Strike all of these give you the same buff but with a larger damage pool and/or more opportunities to use it (in the case of IUS since it doesn't care what part of you you hit the guy with). Meanwhile the mask, on top of it's low damage output, still requires you to be at least 3rd, have 3 ranks in knowledge (planes) (which can be a large investment for the high Str martial character you're referring to), a LN/LE/NE alignment, a 50 gp expense, and still runs the risk of being destroyed by a light sundering (I assume the mask isn't much sturdier than your average heavy crossbow or firearm).
All of that and I still can't make iterative attacks, magically enhance it with ease, and only do d4+1/2 Str if I use it alongside my normal weapons and take a -5 to hit.
And the saddest part is I think this is really cool. It oozes style and has a lot of interesting narrative to its mechanics but as it stands it's just not that good as a feat. If it was a trait, didn't have a prerequisite so you could take it early and maybe build more around it, or heck was a ritual it could be really good, but as it stands I don't think it'll see much play.
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I actually hadn't thought about the extra attack honestly (yeah, I derped), mostly because the poison is what caught my eye.
The problem is as an extra attack it isn't much good either. As a natural attack you take a -5 to your atk and treat it as secondary so only get to add 1/2 Str to your damage, exacerbating the prexisting issues it already had plus now having a harder time hitting and outputting damage.
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Creative Director
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But I can already get another extra attack a dozen other ways that are often better than this. Lesser Fiend Totem, Feral Mutagen, changeling race, Skinwalkers, Ragebred, literally any playable race that currently has a bite attack, a scroll of alter self (or a friend to throw it on you), and Improved Unarmed Strike all of these give you the same buff but with a larger damage pool and/or more opportunities to use it (in the case of IUS since it doesn't care what part of you you hit the guy with). Meanwhile the mask, on top of it's low damage output, still requires you to be at least 3rd, have 3 ranks in knowledge (planes) (which can be a large investment for the high Str martial character you're referring to), a LN/LE/NE alignment, a 50 gp expense, and still runs the risk of being destroyed by a light sundering (I assume the mask isn't much sturdier than...I would hardly call a feat that gives you an entirley new attack crappy at all. The main benefit of the Spirit Oni Master feat is not the poison side (that's a nice side effect) but is, in fact, that additional natural attack. Especially since it's a gore attack, and doesn't require you to sacrifice a hand or manufactured weapon attack, or frankly, ANY sacrifice of an existing body part.
The fact that this feat gives you an entirley new attack is what makes it strong.
It's not a great feat for a low-Strength character or a character who doesn't fight. But for a character who's got a high Strength and focuses on melee fighting, it's VERY strong, since it gives you one more attack in a full-attack action. With a good Strength modifier, this can be a significant advantage.
Comparing it to the "Toothy" trait is, in my opinion, unfair, since I feel that trait is itself too good to be a trait—granting an additional attack is a significant advantage, and whenever I've seen the toothy trait in play, I've regretted allowing it as a trait, frankly. The problem here, if there is indeed a problem, is that Toothy is too good. :-P
That's all fine. Not every feat has to be the best choice for every player. And not every player has the entire gamut of Pathfinder products to choose from.
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That's all fine. Not every feat has to be the best choice for every player. And not every player has the entire gamut of Pathfinder products to choose from.But I can already get another extra attack a dozen other ways that are often better than this. Lesser Fiend Totem, Feral Mutagen, changeling race, Skinwalkers, Ragebred, literally any playable race that currently has a bite attack, a scroll of alter self (or a friend to throw it on you), and Improved Unarmed Strike all of these give you the same buff but with a larger damage pool and/or more opportunities to use it (in the case of IUS since it doesn't care what part of you you hit the guy with). Meanwhile the mask, on top of it's low damage output, still requires you to be at least 3rd, have 3 ranks in knowledge (planes) (which can be a large investment for the high Str martial character you're referring to), a LN/LE/NE alignment, a 50 gp expense, and still runs the risk of being destroyed by a light sundering (I assume the mask isn't much sturdier than your average heavy crossbow or firearm).
All of that and I still can't make iterative attacks, magically enhance it with ease, and only do d4+1/2 Str if I use it alongside my normal weapons and take a -5 to hit.
And the saddest part is I think this is really cool. It oozes style and has a lot of interesting narrative to its mechanics but as it stands it's just not that good as a feat. If it was a trait, didn't have a prerequisite so you could take it early and maybe build more around it, or heck was a ritual it could be really good, but as it stands I don't think it'll see much play.
But at the same time players should be rewarded for their oddball choices with abilities that they can actually use during the game in a meaningful way. Otherwise the options feel like traps, punishing players for having picked something that really resonated with them but in reality they get few real chances to use or often are punished by the game through various means for actually using.
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Mr. Jacobs pretty much nailed it. Toothy is bonkers for a trait - you'll notice the same effect appears elsewhere as a half-orc racial feat - and an extra "slotless" attack is nothing to sneeze at.
In addition, I wanted to provide some additional insights into the design of Spirit Oni Master:
-In one of my earlier drafts, it provided a +2 insight bonus on Perception checks, similar to if the mask were a masterwork tool (the 50 gp part is left over from that). This is part of what spirit oni provide their wearers; the feat was meant to act as a sort of "first step" towards getting a familiar. Thus, that earlier draft also had it acting as a prerequisite for Improved Familiar; thus, a rogue or fighter could use it as a way to get a spirit oni familiar at the appropriate level. Unfortunately, some things had to go.
-When designing it, the character I envisioned taking it was a rogue or ninja - their Weapon Finesse benefits natural weapons as well, it's another weapon to sneak attack with, and combining it with Two-Weapon Fighting gives an impressive number of attacks, especially as early as 3rd level.
Plus, who doesn't love the idea of a ninja in an oni mask? ^_^
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Creative Director
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But at the same time players should be rewarded for their oddball choices with abilities that they can actually use during the game in a meaningful way. Otherwise the options feel like traps, punishing players for having picked something that really resonated with them but in reality they get few real chances to use or often are punished by the game...That's all fine. Not every feat has to be the best choice for every player. And not every player has the entire gamut of Pathfinder products to choose from.But I can already get another extra attack a dozen other ways that are often better than this. Lesser Fiend Totem, Feral Mutagen, changeling race, Skinwalkers, Ragebred, literally any playable race that currently has a bite attack, a scroll of alter self (or a friend to throw it on you), and Improved Unarmed Strike all of these give you the same buff but with a larger damage pool and/or more opportunities to use it (in the case of IUS since it doesn't care what part of you you hit the guy with). Meanwhile the mask, on top of it's low damage output, still requires you to be at least 3rd, have 3 ranks in knowledge (planes) (which can be a large investment for the high Str martial character you're referring to), a LN/LE/NE alignment, a 50 gp expense, and still runs the risk of being destroyed by a light sundering (I assume the mask isn't much sturdier than your average heavy crossbow or firearm).
All of that and I still can't make iterative attacks, magically enhance it with ease, and only do d4+1/2 Str if I use it alongside my normal weapons and take a -5 to hit.
And the saddest part is I think this is really cool. It oozes style and has a lot of interesting narrative to its mechanics but as it stands it's just not that good as a feat. If it was a trait, didn't have a prerequisite so you could take it early and maybe build more around it, or heck was a ritual it could be really good, but as it stands I don't think it'll see much play.
I'm not interested in engaging in arguments over whether a rules option is good or bad. That's a zero-win situation. If you don't like an option, that's fine—we publish enough books that it's pretty likely you'll find another option instead that you do like. Or even better, chat with your GM about adjusting something as a house rule.
In any event, I've explained why the feat is what it is, and I've not much more to add to the discussion.
Spirit Oni Master... works with Amulet of Mighty Fists?
Just as much as any other gore attack, yes. ^_^
Sounds like a great Feat...
Probably stronger than many other Feats granting a Gore or other Natural Attack.
Move Action to use a Poison sounds like a great option when casters are doing pre-fight prep.
Was that confirmed there is Wendo corruptions?
Did that Wendo Medium archetype get Druid casting or what?
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Actually, speaking of rituals. I'd totally be down with it if we had it look something like this...
School conjuration (calling, evil); Level 4
Casting Time 40 minutes
Components V, M (7 paper sealing talismans scribed with pledges to the Oni), F (an ornate mask carved in the likeness of an oni worth at least 50 gp), SC (Up to primary caster's Str modifier)
Skill Checks Knowledge (planes) DC 30, 3 successes; Diplomacy or Intimidate DC 30, 1 success
Range touch
Target Ornate oni mask
Duration Permanent (see text)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)
Backlash The caster takes 4d6 points of damage.
Failure The Spirit Oni breaks free of its bonds and attacks or attempts to escape. Should it survive the primary caster and all secondary casters have made a lifelong enemy and will likely receive attacks from what allies it has in the future for their impertinence.
EFFECT
You have learned the secrets of the oni and wish to have it for yourself. Using forbidden ritual and dark knowledge of the vile life cycles of these damned hedonists you call out to make bargains with their least powerful, using your might to entice them to join you and mark your power among their kind. After successfully performing this ritual a Spirit Oni appears to the primary caster and bonds itself with the ornate mask used as the focus to draw the creature to this world. While the primary caster wears this mask he gains a gore attack that does 1d4 damage. If he has the poison use ability he may apply poisons to this gore attack as a move action. This gore attack counts as a masterwork manufactured weapon for the purposes of magical enhancement and a natural attack for the purpose of feats and other abilities.
Should this mask ever be broken the Spirit Oni escapes, the deal broken and the spirit incensed by the audacity. A new mask must be created and the ritual performed anew to instill the spirit within it again. The DC of the Diplomacy or Intimidate check increase by 2 for each new casting.
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Mr. Jacobs pretty much nailed it. Toothy is bonkers for a trait - you'll notice the same effect appears elsewhere as a half-orc racial feat - and an extra "slotless" attack is nothing to sneeze at.
In addition, I wanted to provide some additional insights into the design of Spirit Oni Master:
-In one of my earlier drafts, it provided a +2 insight bonus on Perception checks, similar to if the mask were a masterwork tool (the 50 gp part is left over from that). This is part of what spirit oni provide their wearers; the feat was meant to act as a sort of "first step" towards getting a familiar. Thus, that earlier draft also had it acting as a prerequisite for Improved Familiar; thus, a rogue or fighter could use it as a way to get a spirit oni familiar at the appropriate level. Unfortunately, some things had to go.
-When designing it, the character I envisioned taking it was a rogue or ninja - their Weapon Finesse benefits natural weapons as well, it's another weapon to sneak attack with, and combining it with Two-Weapon Fighting gives an impressive number of attacks, especially as early as 3rd level.
Plus, who doesn't love the idea of a ninja in an oni mask? ^_^
Now that would have been cool! Totally would have been cool to see a feat chain that gets an oni mask familiar in the hands of a martial class! Sad that got cut, would have really given it some awesome utility options, might fiddle with that for my home games.
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My first book!But not your last!
Great work, btw. Thanks for your efforts on this.
Thank you! ^_^
Also thanks as well! Despite the critique of the Oni Spirit Master feat the rest of the feats I've seen so far in this first section are pretty freakin' awesome! Soulblade, Ghostslayer, and Soulwrecking Strike are pretty f!+!ing awesome in their own niche and give martials a lot to do in situations where they usually have to twiddle their thumbs and wait. Totally want to see soulblade pulled out in pfs against a haunt.
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Thank you! ^_^
(Although, full disclosure: Soulwrecking Strike wasn't mine. I only wrote Haunted Places.)
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*is happy that Isabelle wrote stuff in a book I, Blaine Seitz, am interested in*
Mostly because Owen told me to be. :p ;) *is kidding*
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Thank you! ^_^
(Although, full disclosure: Soulwrecking Strike wasn't mine. I only wrote Haunted Places.)
Lol, well credit where credit is due. Soulblade is an amazing feat and you should be proud. It not only gives martial characters a great way to handle an issue that they usually can't handle, it gives a whole party a very solid option for handling what can be one of the most difficult issues in the game. I wouldn't be surprised if we see this pop up in a lot of fighter & barbarian builds for pfs, carrion crown, and other haunt centric games going forward. And the integration of vital strike?! So sweet.
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Lol, well credit where credit is due. Soulblade is an amazing feat and you should be proud. It not only gives martial characters a great way to handle an issue that they usually can't handle, it gives a whole party a very solid option for handling what can be one of the most difficult issues in the game. I wouldn't be surprised if we see this pop up in a lot of fighter & barbarian builds for pfs, carrion crown, and other haunt centric games going forward. And the integration of vital strike?! So sweet.Thank you! ^_^
(Although, full disclosure: Soulwrecking Strike wasn't mine. I only wrote Haunted Places.)
Actually quick question about this, how does one determine the AC of a haunt exactly? As it stands the feat's not really clear on that. I'm guessing it's either the save DC or the Perception DC but I'm not sure one way or another. Any clarity on this would be greatly appreciated.
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For Soulblade, the intent is for it to target the same AC the haunt uses against cure spells and the like.
From the Gamemastery Guide's section on haunts:
On the surprise round in which a haunt manifests, positive energy applied to the haunt (via channeled energy, cure spells, and the like) can damage the haunt's hit points (a haunt never gains a Will save to lessen the damage done by such effects, and attacks that require a successful attack roll to work must strike AC 10 in order to affect the haunt and not merely the physical structure it inhabits). Unless the haunt has an unusual weakness, no other form of attack can reduce its hit points. If the haunt is reduced to 0 hit points by positive energy, it is neutralized—if this occurs before the haunt takes its action at initiative rank 10, its effect does not occur.
Also, note that vaporous haunts (Occult Adventures 231) instead have AC equal to 10 + their CR and possess the incorporeal quality.
All this is a bit obscure, I know. ^_^
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Anyone know any more about the new pact wizard? Like what does the archetype gain/lose. Also is the name set in stone or subject to change?
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Anyone know any more about the new pact wizard? Like what does the archetype gain/lose. Also is the name set in stone or subject to change?
Short answer? It's a giant ball of arcane awesome!
Long answer, you get a witch's patron (and those spells added to your book), the ability to sack spontcast your patron spells with any of your spells save your specialty school extra slots, you can prep your spell for the day in 15 minutes rather than an hour and prep hastily in a minute, at 5th you get an oracle's curse and get to add whatever bonus spells it gives you if it gives you some to your spell book for free, at 10 you can roll twice take the better result when rolling a Caster level, check concentration check, initial check, or saving throw 3+1/2 Int per day, at 15 to get to add your Int to those rolls and reduce the spell level of metamagic spells from your Patron spell list or oracle curse by 1 to a minimum of their original level, and the 20th if you roll a nat 20 on that you auto succeed regardless of whether or not that's possible.
All that for the low low price of scribe scroll and I believe all your bonus feats. And now I totally want to play it.
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Anyone know any more about the new pact wizard? Like what does the archetype gain/lose. Also is the name set in stone or subject to change?Short answer? It's a giant ball of arcane awesome!
Long answer, you get a witch's patron (and those spells added to your book), the ability to sack spontcast your patron spells with any of your spells save your specialty school extra slots, you can prep your spell for the day in 15 minutes rather than an hour and prep hastily in a minute, at 5th you get an oracle's curse and get to add whatever bonus spells it gives you if it gives you some to your spell book for free, at 10 you can roll twice take the better result when rolling a Caster level, check concentration check, initial check, or saving throw 3+1/2 Int per day, at 15 to get to add your Int to those rolls and reduce the spell level of metamagic spells from your Patron spell list or oracle curse by 1 to a minimum of their original level, and the 20th if you roll a nat 20 on that you auto succeed regardless of whether or not that's possible.
All that for the low low price of scribe scroll and I believe all your bonus feats. And now I totally want to play it.
So basically you get a set of spells you can spontaneously cast, the Fast Study arcane discovery for free (which is a fair trade), an Oracle curse, an almost constant (significantly better) Borrow Fortune ability, and free Metamagic level reduction which I imagine stacks with other reductions.
And it stacks with Exploiter.
How was this a good idea?
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Too Hot for PFS!
What do you think the best pact wizard patron(s) will be? My bet is healing but idk?
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Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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Thanks for the info.
I wish the new the sorcerer bloodline and psychic discipline was in the horror Adventures book.
AH, thanks! High praise, and sorry I didn't catch it earlier.
Of course, James did an excellent job on developing this book. Upon reviewing the final copy, his touch really brought out a bunch of options I'd not considered for both of these class variants. So, hooray for teamwork!
The real star of this show, is the pump organ. I think we can all agree that Pathfinder is a better place knowing how much a pump organ costs, and what rules are available for it :)
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My first book!
Congratulations! I'm looking forward to reading it. :)
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The idea of the possessed hand line of feats is one reason this book exists. :)
From this comment, I gather that this idea came out some time ago
There were at least 2 items in the latest RPGSS (one year ago) that also did very interesting things with hands
Were they an inspiration for these feats or was it a case of parallel design ?
More broadly, what is the average timetable for the process from ideas for a book to release of the Player Companion ?
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*pats Rysky on the shoulder* It's okay.
Also looking forward to seeing some of these archetypes.
...But at the same time players should be rewarded for their oddball choices with abilities that they can actually use during the game in a meaningful way. Otherwise the options feel like traps, punishing players for having picked something that really resonated with them but in reality they get few real chances to use or oftenThat's all fine. Not every feat has to be the best choice for every player. And not every player has the entire gamut of Pathfinder products to choose from.But I can already get another extra attack a dozen other ways that are often better than this. Lesser Fiend Totem, Feral Mutagen, changeling race, Skinwalkers, Ragebred, literally any playable race that currently has a bite attack, a scroll of alter self (or a friend to throw it on you), and Improved Unarmed Strike all of these give you the same buff but with a larger damage pool and/or more opportunities to use it (in the case of IUS since it doesn't care what part of you you hit the guy with). Meanwhile the mask, on top of it's low damage output, still requires you to be at least 3rd, have 3 ranks in knowledge (planes) (which can be a large investment for the high Str martial character you're referring to), a LN/LE/NE alignment, a 50 gp expense, and still runs the risk of being destroyed by a light sundering (I assume the mask isn't much sturdier than your average heavy crossbow or firearm).
All of that and I still can't make iterative attacks, magically enhance it with ease, and only do d4+1/2 Str if I use it alongside my normal weapons and take a -5 to hit.
And the saddest part is I think this is really cool. It oozes style and has a lot of interesting narrative to its mechanics but as it stands it's just not that good as a feat. If it was a trait, didn't have a prerequisite so you could take it early and maybe build more around it, or heck was a ritual it could be really good, but as it stands I don't think it'll see much play.
I will be taking it for Jade Regent for my crossblooded sorcerer/eldritch knight build who is oni blooded/dragon blooded. It's very flavorful and I like extra attacks personally. Cast touch spell, and charge. If it gave you the powerful charge ability, then people would say "OMG that's powerful". Sometimes flavor is what really matters the most :)
Sometimes flavor is what really matters the most :)
You could have both though, nothing says flavor and function are mutually exclusive.
Sometimes flavor is what really matters the most :)You could have both though, nothing says flavor and function are mutually exclusive.Kinda reminds me of the:
> Healthy Food.
> Good Tasting Food.
^ Pick one.
You've never eaten well-prepared Tofu Duck then.