You can't damage a ghost with purely physical attacks, even if they're magical, so your +1 striking weapon won't help of its own self. You'd need ghost oil, or a ghost touch rune, or holy (or unholy?) water or healing (harming?) potions, or perhaps some other way of doing damage. (Talisman? Fulu? Something else?)
Even if you can damage it, and eventually get it to zero hit points, it'll just come back in, what is it? 1d4 days? In order to get rid of it you'd have to figure out why it's hanging around in the first place. What kind of skill checks are good for that?
Ghosts can totally be damaged with purely physical attacks.
Resistances all damage 5 (except force, ghost touch, or positive; double resistance vs. non-magical)
As you can see, a fighter with a mundane greatsword can hurt the ghost. Sure, they'll lose 10 points of damage to resistance, but you can do it. If it's a +1 weapon, it'll have resistance 5. A group I was in loved Ghostbane Fulus to help, though.
That said, the rejuvenation is totally something to be concerned about. I think for that, you have a lot of options. An appropriate Lore or Society check for a ghost that's been haunting an area for ages and has folklore around it might provide clues. On the other hand, it could be ancient, and you might need to decode inscriptions on ruins to find out what's holding it to the world, which could be any number of checks, or you could try Deception or Diplomacy to try to convince it to tell you why it's hanging around. This entirely depends on the GM/module.
Let's look at a ghost: Ghost Pirate Captain, creature 8. It is incorporeal.
Incorporeal
An incorporeal creature or object has no physical form. It can pass through solid objects, including walls. When inside an object, an incorporeal creature can’t perceive, attack, or interact with anything outside the object, and if it starts its turn in an object, it is slowed 1. Corporeal creatures can pass through an incorporeal creature, but they can’t end their movement in its space.An incorporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against physical creatures or objects—only against incorporeal ones—unless those objects have the ghost touch property rune. Likewise, a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures or objects.
Incorporeal creatures usually have immunity to effects or conditions that require a physical body, like disease, poison, and precision damage. They usually have resistance against all damage (except force damage and damage from Strikes with the ghost touch property rune), with double the resistance against non-magical damage.
They are not immune to physical damage. Instead they resist physical damage. And damage from a +1 striking weapon counts as magical, so it does not get double resistance.
The immunities and resistances on the Ghost Pirate Captain are, "Immunities death effects, disease, paralyzed, poison, precision, unconscious; Resistances all damage 10 (except force, ghost touch, or positive; double resistance vs. non-magical)"
Thus, hit with a +1 striking longsword for 2d8+4 damage, rolling a lackluster (2)+(7)+4 = 13, and 3 slashing damage gets through to hurt the Ghost Pirate Captain. Make a critical hit for 26 damage, and 16 gets through.
Some people argue that the line under Incorporeal that says, "Likewise, a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures or objects," means that only Dexterity-based Strikes work against a ghost. Others say that that is a typographical error and ought to say, "Strength-based skill checks," which prevents only Athletics checks such as Trip or Grapple.
AS for the ghost rejuvenating, most dungeon-delving adventurers don't care about the ghost returning after they looted the dungeon. If they are on a quest to permanently eliminate the ghost, then the quest will provide the information to end the rejuvenation.
If it's a typo it shoulda been errata'd three years ago.
Not concerned with "most adventurers don't care". What about the ones that do?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
If it's a typo it shoulda been errata'd three years ago.
Ah, I mistook this for an advice thread. I'll see myself out.
You do you, Cydeth.
I suppose that if I'm GMing I have to pick either "only dex based strikes work" or "it's a typo and should read 'strength-based skill checks'". I don't know which way I'd go.
Some people argue that the line under Incorporeal that says, "Likewise, a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures or objects," means that only Dexterity-based Strikes work against a ghost.
Yeah raises hand. Thanks for the mention. It is a black and white reading of well defined terms. It is an unambiguous rule that shows up in 4 places in the rules. So calling it a typo is a stretch. There is one largely contradicting example to it in the rules.
The problem is that you have to look up a trait to notice it, and it is a very strong effect so players just can't power through the encounter and ignore it.
Others say that that is a typographical error and ought to say, "Strength-based skill checks," which prevents only Athletics checks such as Trip or Grapple.
Yes the technically correct reading is not loved. If you are playing with the undead options that let the player get incorporeal, you do pretty much have to go this alternative route otherwise it becomes broken.
Not concerned with "most adventurers don't care". What about the ones that do?
The Ghost Pirate Captain says, "Rejuvenation (divine, necromancy) When the ghost pirate captain is destroyed, they re-form after 2d4 days within the ship or location they're bound to, fully healed. They can be permanently destroyed if their desires are fulfilled, which could involve being defeated in a great battle or ensuring their treasure has been hidden."
Thus, if the adventurers have been hired to destroy the Ghost Pirate Captain, then they kill off the ghost temporarily, search for his treasure lying around in the open somewhere, bury the treasure underground in a chest, and draw a treasure map revealing its location. When the ghost manifests again, they visit the ghost, who will rage about his stolen treasure. They show him the map and point out that the treasure is hidden. He will take the map and both he and the map will disappear.
Eight days later, they check that the ghost has not manifested yet again. Then they dig up the treasure for themselves. Since they hid it themselves, they don't need the map.
I have run five quests where rejuvenating undead spirits were permanently destroyed. In one of them, a disquieted ghost needed the bard to pretend to be an old friend who forgave him. In another, a dread wraith was radiating enough negative energy to let poltergeists and gearghosts rejuvenate nearby. Defeating the dread wraith in combat prevented the other spirits from returning. In a third, the party had to solve the mystery of what had killed the wizard who had become a ghost, but the ghost wizard would rather endure as a ghost so he was trying to kill them. In a fourth, the party had to recover the lost bodies of the miners killed in a cave-in and bury them properly, despite the rejuvenating quarrygeists feeding on the negative energy from the bodies trying to kill the PCs. In a fifth, they had to survive re-enacting the death of the living person who became the ghost, with each failed Performance check dealing real damage to the actor.
The method of putting the ghost to rest usually has to be difficult in order to explain why no-one put the ghost to rest already. The simplest difficulty is the ghost itself, who might like being undead or might be too distressed to cooperate peacefully. On the other hand, a good sob story where the party has to right an old wrong makes a memorable quest.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
From the history of such threads as this, it would seem that the majority of players never even notice that immunity to Strength-based checks includes melee attack rolls. I find from personal experience that nothing breaks in the game if you allow all melee strikes to work normally even on incorporeal creatures. If you are looking for advice, that is what I would do--treat the incorporeal trait as if it was limited to Skill checks, or at least Str-based checks outside of Strikes. Incorporeal creatures, judging by the fact that they only have Resistance to general non-magical damage, not immunity (outside of the Str-based ones anyway by probable error of inclusion), are probably intended to be slightly more tangible than often depicted (though the history of semi-tangible ghosts is itself well-storied).
That said, if you're interested in hearing from someone who prefers to run games with incorporeal creatures being intentionally immune to non-magical damage including both magical and nonmagical melee strikes, I imagine a visit from Gortle to this thread is likely. He can tell you more about his experiences with this interpretation and the effects it has on the games he runs. From what I understand, it works quite well and he in particular enjoys that it forces players to retreat in search of anti-ghost tools rather than bullrushing through encounters.
Edit I spent too long typing, welcome Gortle!
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
As other discussions have established: the reading that incorporeal creatures are immune to all strength-based attacks is obviously not intended - if this trait was meant to secretlt the single most unconditionally powerful defensive ability in the game, it would probably say so. Notably while Bestiary 1 has yet to be errata'd, Book of the Dead does indicate it's meant to be skill checks. For the sake of your players so they're not forced to to try and do 1d4+1 damage to something that resists most of that damage by making them use a finesse weapon, use the common sense interpretation of "immune to strength-based skill checks". Your players will thank you for it.
As other discussions have established: the reading that incorporeal creatures are immune to all strength-based attacks is obviously not intended - if this trait was meant to secretlt the single most unconditionally powerful defensive ability in the game, it would probably say so. Notably while Bestiary 1 has yet to be errata'd, Book of the Dead does indicate it's meant to be skill checks. For the sake of your players so they're not forced to to try and do 1d4+1 damage to something that resists most of that damage by making them use a finesse weapon, use the common sense interpretation of "immune to strength-based skill checks". Your players will thank you for it.
Incorporeal is supposed to be a super powerful defensive ability, with limitations. Look at every depiction of it in popular culture.
I object to the idea that it should be otherwise. Obviously this is a game and we need some balance, but normal characters do have options if they think about it.
Book of the Dead still has references to strength checks, so I don't think you can fairly claim it is on the way out.
Ghost touch runes are only 4th level. Knowing incorporeal creatures can’t be attacked by strength based characters without one, makes not carrying a weapon with one an eventually dangerous choice.
It is annoying to have essentially a mandatory first rune, and I ‘d prefer GMs not rule it as such, but it is only a minor inconvenience if you realize the bind of it. This squarely puts ghosts as villains in an awkward trap situation for newer players who don’t read the rules, so I don’t run ghosts this way because it is unnecessary. It is easier just to have the ghost be a high enough level for it to be a real threat to the party. At level +2 or maybe 3, depending on the party and their overall level, a ghost can just resist physical attacks and be a plenty difficult enemy that should be attacked with ghost touch weapons, rather than a guaranteed TPK waiting to happen unless the players come to the table with the prerequisite meta knowledge.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
...
Some people argue that the line under Incorporeal that says, "Likewise, a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures or objects," means that only Dexterity-based Strikes work against a ghost. Others say that that is a typographical error and ought to say, "Strength-based skill checks," which prevents only Athletics checks such as Trip or Grapple.
...
I find it odd that a ghost is immune to my club when I swing it, but the same club can hit it if thrown. Of course the rules often favor game balance over 'realism,' but my gut feelings lean toward the idea that the rule was meant to be limited to athletics checks.
And it's interesting that with the current wording an Investigator could use Athletic Strategist to disarm, grapple, shove, or trip a ghost.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...
Some people argue that the line under Incorporeal that says, "Likewise, a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures or objects," means that only Dexterity-based Strikes work against a ghost. Others say that that is a typographical error and ought to say, "Strength-based skill checks," which prevents only Athletics checks such as Trip or Grapple.
...I find it odd that a ghost is immune to my club when I swing it, but the same club can hit it if thrown. Of course the rules often favor game balance over 'realism,' but my gut feelings lean toward the idea that the rule was meant to be limited to athletics checks.
And it's interesting that with the current wording an Investigator could use Athletic Strategist to disarm, grapple, shove, or trip a ghost.
This! In trying to rely on traits to control how everything interacts, certain things slip through.
I can't imagine they intended for strength based melee attacks to completely fail, but dex based melee attacks to be allowable. I understand it's possible from the rules, but thematically it doesn't make sense.
And the rules wouldn't make sense if all weapon attacks were intended to be completely ineffective, since it says resistance is double against non magic attacks.
Likewise, they tried to be succinct by strength based checks (which many of us interpret to have omitted the word skill) but have opened up a horrid realm where strength based grapple doesn't work, but the rare dex grappler can suplex ghosts .