Building Characters During Play

So I have an idea for starting a campaign but I'm not really sure how to go about doing this. I want the players to come to the table with mostly blank character sheets. The only thing they would have is their race. As the adventure progresses, they choose their attributes, feats, classes, skills, etc. I want them to start as level-0 characters and then have them progress normally from there. They will end up with 20 point buy by the end of the first adventure and a full class at level 1.

Any suggestions on how I could go about doing this? I'm debating if I want them to start off as slaves or as friends in a local community that end up in an adventure.

In case it's confusing as to what my plan is, I want everyone to start with an 8 in each stat, adjusted by race. When they want to accomplish something, they simply tell me what bonus they see their character having (maybe they need to open a stuck door and the dwarf thinks he should have a +2 bonus). I would then have the player set their stat to the lowest value necessary for that bonus. Maybe the characters get into a fight and someone decides that their character is quick to react, so their first feat is Improved Initiative. Skills would all be untrained (basically just attribute checks) until the character settles on a class, which may take a little while. For the most part, this shouldn't be much of an issue. If they want to use a trained-only skill, they will have to spend a skill point. They won't be able to do this often until they choose a class though.

I'm trying to figure out how to make it so that they choose their classes as part of game play. I want all the classes to be options (as well as some 3PP classes from SGG). Any suggestions on how to go about any or all of this?

To get the juices flowing:

Do you want them to have cash or any basic equipment? Slaves is no cash, friends in community is yes (or at least access to both). Are you thinking about starting them as slaves so they have no real equipment to start or for some other reason?

Do they all need to start off the same way or could this too be player driven choice? As in present them with several options such as: slaves (escaped or rescued), washed ashore/shipwrecked in recent storm, hit the age of adulthood and forced to leave the orphanage, wake up having been found or in (by the local temple, wandering around the standing stones outside the village, refugees fleeing war or a bandit raid, hiding in a local cave, the burnt out rubble of their home) all with memory of how/why/who anywhere from none to vague to crystal clear.

I'm definitely looking for some creative ways to get the adventure started and I'm liking the shipwreck or refugees ideas better than my own. For simplicity, I want them all to have a similar start so that it will be easier for me. This is an experiment that I've considered before but never really knew how I wanted to go about implementing.

I want them to start with nothing. No gear or money. They will find some along the way and hopefully they will use it to drive their choices on which class they each choose. I want the first adventure to be mostly a player driven choice. I want to make sure that there are options there for almost every class so they can make decisions during play. Some classes will be easier than others to do this for. The only thing I won't allow will be evil alignments so anti-paladin is out.

Well the "studied" classes might be tough to fit. Like wizards, how are you going to explain the lack of schooling?

You could play a low level child campaign which their choices determine their future classes. Make them all childhood friends and run through some day dream/pretend time adventure where they take down a dragon and save the town. Then flash forward x years when they meet again as level 1s and start a real adventure.

Shipwreck vs Refugees (or double whammy shipwrecked refugees :p)

Shipwreck means a home they may be looking to get back to if that's important (either in the short term or long). And obviously involves a nearby large body of water

Refugees tends to imply home is not really an option anymore except perhaps as a very long term goal.

I'd probably develop a lot of npcs and scenes for them to interact with as the leave the beach describing who and what they see and see where they head either as a group or as individuals. Do they barter or grab stuff on the clothes line? Do they head to the Temple(s), Inn, Tavern or Guildhall. I'd be linking each npc/scene with skills, classes, etc. as well as its potential for gaining equipment and as adventure hooks. I'd be thinking about how they initially interact as well. For example, the PC who barters (rogue, bard, paladin, social skills/feats) vs looks for the help wanted signs. Where do the individual players when they are talking about what to do suggest. Does the player suggest heading to a temple (monk, cleric) vs a guildhall (fighter, rogues) or setting up a campsite at the edge of town (ranger, druid)

I'd also expect the players as they catch on how this works to start heading to spots where they would expect to gain the associated things.
"Ahah!" player turns from the temple destination proclaiming they'll head to the Blacksmith and ask about weaponry instead. Or to answer gutnedawg "studied" question the PC in question heads toward the odd looking tower at the edge of town which turns out to be the local wizards home. You'll need to decide how much they can pick up this way vs dropping the adventure hooks and adventure on them (sooner vs later)

But I'm out of time for now have to head to work.

I don't think you can choose classes during gameplay for d20. They're just too big and complicated. You want a skill based classless game I think.

You could set a series of challanges asking that each player determine how they will overcome the challange and determine the stats that way although considering using constitution to do some things may be tricky so you might want to fix that at a higher number and only have a few options for raising it (or possibly lowering it)for instance.

You are chained to a chair with somewhat rusty chains, another slave is nearby but not chained up what do you do?

(probably more useful for the slave idea than the shipwreck)

1 Strength: Try to break the rusty chain.
2 Dexterity: Try to wiggle out.
3 Consitution: ??? (I was thinking hurt your wrists to use the blood as lubricant but that may be too grim for some games).
4 Intellegence: Find the weakest looking link in the chane and apply pressure.
5 Wisdom: Look for something to help you escape like an improvised tool.
6 Charisma: try and persuade the other slave to help.

Each use of a stat would increase it by 2 untill it reaches 13 by 1 untill 16 and only 1/2 after that to a maximum of your choice as would be if you gave them the options or judged their own free choices as to which stat it favored. (you could also link this with skills but that would be a lot more work)

I'm not really worried about the classes that are "studied" classes. That part is hand waved in the rules already with multiclassing so I have no problem with hand waving it for this.

Depending on how this work out, I may need a lot of NPCs. I don't have the NPC Codex yet, but I'm sure that could really reduce my workload (although I don't mind building NPCs the less work I spend on them, the more I can spend on the campaign). I can use the NPCs as contacts throughout the campaign, which could be interesting.

So I like the shipwrecked/refugees idea. I could put them on an island or other remote area. I'm starting to think that they could have been in a hurricane that not only destroyed their ship, but also most of a small settlement they crashed into or nearby. This would allow them to find some gear and start making some class choices.

Since there will probably be some hard decisions for some players, I will be using the Super Genius Guide to Feats of Multiclassing. It lets you take feats that give you a small bit of multiclass without actually having to multiclass. Here's an example feat:

Jongleur
(Multiclass Bard)
Although you are not a bard, you have learned to give moving performances.
Prerequisites: Skill Focus (Perform), no levels of bard, Cha 13.
Benefit: Select one form of the Perform skill for which you have taken Skill Focus.
You can use that Perform skill to give a bardic performance that acts as inspire courage, but requires a move action to maintain each round. To determine the effectiveness of this bardic performance, your effective
bard level is equal to half your character level (minimum 1). You can use this bardic performance a total number of rounds per day equal to 4 + your Charisma modifier, to a maximum number of rounds equal to your character level.
Special: If you gain levels in bard, you can immediately trade this feat for the Extra Performance feat.

This way, at low levels, they can play around with some multiclassing without giving up their primary class but if they choose to fully multiclass they can do so.

I don't think you can choose classes during gameplay for d20. They're just too big and complicated. You want a skill based classless game I think.

I think it can be done it just takes a little work and flexibility. As the GM, I will have to live in houserule territory for a bit even for the first few levels as the players settle into their classes. As long as we're all able to accept that, I think it can work out.

You could set a series of challanges asking that each player determine how they will overcome the challange and determine the stats that way although considering using constitution to do some things may be tricky so you might want to fix that at a higher number and only have a few options for raising it (or possibly lowering it)for instance.

the Gm wrote:

You are chained to a chair with somewhat rusty chains, another slave is nearby but not chained up what do you do?

(probably more useful for the slave idea than the shipwreck)

1 Strength: Try to break the rusty chain.
2 Dexterity: Try to wiggle out.
3 Consitution: ??? (I was thinking hurt your wrists to use the blood as lubricant but that may be too grim for some games).
4 Intellegence: Find the weakest looking link in the chane and apply pressure.
5 Wisdom: Look for something to help you escape like an improvised tool.
6 Charisma: try and persuade the other slave to help.

Each use of a stat would increase it by 2 untill it reaches 13 by 1 untill 16 and only 1/2 after that to a maximum of your choice as would be if you gave them the options or judged their own free choices as to which stat it favored. (you could also link this with skills but that would be a lot more work)

Interesting idea. I was going to let them just set their stats as they went, using 20 point buy. Your method could also be interesting. I would have to figure out how to keep it capped at 20 point buy, which shouldn't be too complicated.

I plan on using low DCs for a while. I don't want them to be able to Take 10 on most tasks unless they put some points in their stats. Obviously some races will make this easier than others, which I'm ok with.

I just had a thought. I may start them with no official race either. I may have them build their race as they go too, using the ARG. I don't know how I would work this into the story though.

Here's an idea.

The characters have amnesia and have forgotten the true extent of their strength and skills, maybe even as far as forgetting their origin and names. As the adventure goes on they slowly remember discover their capabilities.

The idea is to have the players roll for their stats (using the roll method) instead of buying them with an x-pt. buy. They roll for the particular attribute when it comes up, for example, rolling Dexterity when attempting to pick a lock. This could provide for some interesting situations I think, where a character might prove to unexpectadly good at something ("I guess I don't know my own strength!") or unexpectadly bad.

In case of a particularly bad roll, you could allow the use of hero points to modify or reroll as you see fit.

Here's an idea.

The characters have amnesia and have forgotten the true extent of their strength and skills, maybe even as far as forgetting their origin and names. As the adventure goes on they slowly remember discover their capabilities.

The idea is to have the players roll for their stats (using the roll method) instead of buying them with an x-pt. buy. They roll for the particular attribute when it comes up, for example, rolling Dexterity when attempting to pick a lock. This could provide for some interesting situations I think, where a character might prove to unexpectadly good at something ("I guess I don't know my own strength!") or unexpectadly bad.

In case of a particularly bad roll, you could allow the use of hero points to modify or reroll as you see fit.

My only concern with this is that I have a two players that are very lucky and one that is often not and I don't want too much disparity between the characters. Then again, I could always work out what the point buy would be and give those with the lowest point buys some sort of hero points or extra feats or something to make up for it. Interesting idea. I'm going to mull this over a bit.

I like CC's idea. If you want to make it fairer you can make a minimum baseline of each stat and bump any below that baseline up a bit. If all the character's stats are low I'm sure you can make up something like "You were still weak from your captivity, roll again tomorrow".

If all the characters have low stats, it won't be much of a problem. I just don't want too much variation between characters. I don't want one player to feel like he's considerably weaker than another.

Sort of on that topic, what are some ways to keep them all similar assuming that I do allow rolling?

Here are some things I'm thinking of:

1) Rynjin's idea
2) After everyone has rolled their stats, we figure out the point buy for each character and average them. Everyone uses that average. It can be explained that those with the higher rolls had bursts of inspiration or adrenaline and the others needed more time to recover.
3) Calculate everyone's point buy after rolling and round down to the nearest 5 points. Every 5 point difference a character has, the get an extra trait. If they have 10 points, they can get a feat instead.
4) Same as #3 but every 5 point difference is an extra Hero Point.

Please feel free to tear these apart based on balance. I really would like to make sure that the characters remain balanced somehow.

I'm naturally inclined towards my idea, but 3 sounds good as well.

I really don't like the idea of setting an average point buy after having rolled stats. It seems off to me and sort of defeats the purpose of rolling (the potential for truly amazing stats). I do like the idea of compensating low point buys with extra feats/traits/whatever.

Another interesting one might be to give "free" favored class bonuses. EX: You have a human Sorcerer with a lower than average point buy. At every level he gains an extra spell of one level lower than his maximum AND his choice of an extra HP or skill point.

That's another interesting idea to toss around. There are enough favored class bonuses to make that interesting too.

You could try doing a low variance die rolls or linking stats.

5d4+2 drop the lowest will give a fairly tight grouping. Someone could have terrible or great luck, but it's less likely the more dice are involved. The downside is that you'll get lots of samey characters.

Or if for every stat X that is 2d6+6 there is a stat that is 26-X rolling poorly on strength might automatically mean you have high dexterity. The downside is that you'll narrow down the possibilities in the process of deciding which stats are in opposition.

Start them as Commoners, or maybe an Expert and let them rebuild their characters at an appropriate point.

Dotting for when I have more time.

You could try doing a low variance die rolls or linking stats.

5d4+2 drop the lowest will give a fairly tight grouping. Someone could have terrible or great luck, but it's less likely the more dice are involved. The downside is that you'll get lots of samey characters.

Or if for every stat X that is 2d6+6 there is a stat that is 26-X rolling poorly on strength might automatically mean you have high dexterity. The downside is that you'll narrow down the possibilities in the process of deciding which stats are in opposition.

I'm also tempted to give everyone a pool of dice, let's say 30d6 (or whatever is appropriate) and they can choose 3 to 6 of them to roll for a stat. They only keep the 3 highest numbers. Once those dice are used, they are gone forever.

Start them as Commoners, or maybe an Expert and let them rebuild their characters at an appropriate point.

I thought about that but I don't think that would give the feel I'm going for. I want them to have completely clean slates and build as the adventure progresses. I want to see how the adventure molds their choices.

24d6 is considered standard isn't it.

I was just throwing a number out there. I hadn't settled on anything.

Just a small thought, but if you want to approximate a point buy, how about giving them all the same starting attributes (8 being your first thought if I recall?), and when the situation comes up, you can give them the option to bump stats up to what they think is suitable (using the appropriate points). I think this follows along with one of your first thoughts, yes?

The additional part though would be that, after that beginning choice, they could slowly tweak their ability scores. I don't know how long you want this formation process to take, in game, but if it'll be a couple days, you could let them add or subtract one from each of their scores each day, with the appropriate points spent or refunded.

This way, you can put a hard number to them when first needed, but they can be slowly sculpted afterwards if a player thinks they want their character to go in a slightly different direction.

I'll refrain from judging any of the rolling methods though, because I haven't used them. Maybe that would work better. I can't really tell.

That's also an interesting way to do it Darkwolf. I didn't realize I was going to get so many different suggestions on just starting attributes. I'll have to really think these through to make sure they will have the intended effect.

I ran a campaign not too long ago, the idea of which I nabbed from an online game someone ran in 2010.

The basic premise: You start out as a generic creature with no voice, no skills, feats, or special abilities whatsoever, and every stat at 10.

Whenever you eat a creature you acquire one of its traits. Permanently. For the purpose of this quest, that means I'll give you a short list to choose from.

Linkified

Of course, I made a lot of changes converting it for tabletop, but it was a great campaign. Lots of fun, and lasted a surprisingly long time before the PCs' growth became too exponential.

I ran a campaign not too long ago, the idea of which I nabbed from an online game someone ran in 2010.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/9047990/ wrote:

The basic premise: You start out as a generic creature with no voice, no skills, feats, or special abilities whatsoever, and every stat at 10.

Whenever you eat a creature you acquire one of its traits. Permanently. For the purpose of this quest, that means I'll give you a short list to choose from.

Linkified

Of course, I made a lot of changes converting it for tabletop, but it was a great campaign. Lots of fun, and lasted a surprisingly long time before the PCs' growth became too exponential.

Interesting. Not quite where I wanted to go with it but it does get the gerbil running in my brain thinking a bit.

My only concern with this is that I have a two players that are very lucky and one that is often not and I don't want too much disparity between the characters. Then again, I could always work out what the point buy would be and give those with the lowest point buys some sort of hero points or extra feats or something to make up for it. Interesting idea. I'm going to mull this over a bit.

In that case.

If the variance isn't too bad: Allow certain or all characters to reroll their lowest attribute.

If the variance is horrible: Continue until everyone has their attributes rolled, then immediately stop the action. Explain that as they travel and work together, vague memories of the others have started popping up in their heads. Tell them that they're beginning to realize that they've travelled together before as an adventuring party and that the thoughts of their old exploits are filling them with courage and renewed vigor.

Here, you'll look at everyone's sheets and calculate their points. Every character with a build below 20-points gets as many points as they need to get up to 20. Every character above a 20-point build gives the lower characters a bonus based on the difference.

To give an example, if you have two characters, Tom and Sara, and Tom has a 15-pt build and Sara has a 25-pt build, then Tom will get 10 points to spend to cover the difference.

So here's my plan:

1) During the adventure, the characters will have some challenges that will require them to determine a stat. They will have 28d6 to play with. I've chosen 28d6 to give them a little wiggle room. They will choose to roll 3d6 to 6d6 (keep the best 3) for the stat.

2) Once everyone has all 6 stats, then I will look them over and calculate their point buy. I will then round their points to the nearest 5 points, up or down and tell them they can make minor adjustments from there to match their points.

2a) The character with the highest points will stay with what he has.
2b) For every 5 points you are behind the highest, you can choose an extra trait. You can trade in two traits for one feat. You don't have to spend these right away. You can choose to save them.

3) You don't have to settle on a class until you use something that is a class feature. Once you've done that, your first class has been chosen. You must choose something by the time you earn enough XP to reach level 1 (I'm leaning towards 500 xp).

4) Everyone starts as a relatively formless humanoid (I haven't decided why yet but there will be a reason). As you progress, you choose racial features that will bring you form. You have 10 RP to work with. You need to have them spent by the time you reach level 1.

5) I will allow retraining after each level. For the first 3 levels, it will only take a little time. After that, it will start to cost money and time. I haven't settle on anything yet. I don't want it to be so costly that no one will use it nor do I want it so cheap that it will be done every level. I'm open to suggestions.