Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Paths of Prestige

I think Paizo does NOT really like racial prcs.

the only racial prcs are in the races og golarion books, like the brightness seeker( elf only) but James has said already that there will be no reprints of their material from older books.

What I'd like to know is if the Wasp queens are going to get a prc in this book??

Thanks for that. I hate Racial restriction too.

My only beef with this book is that itwillhave a Winter Witch PC, when there was already an archetype for it. Make up your mind, Paizo!

My only beef with this book is that itwillhave a Winter Witch PC, when there was already an archetype for it. Make up your mind, Paizo!

They are intended to work hand in hand with each other.

I direct you to 2 posts from James Jacobs on this topic:

Here

and

Here

Thanks for that. I hate Racial restriction too.

And why is that?

I gave some reasons why i think it's a good thing, I would like to know why other people oppose the idea of SOME prestige classes being racially restricted.

In my experience the people who hate any sort of limitations are usually min-maxers (it doesn't mean you are, or that it is an inherently bad thing to be one). They don't care for the lore ("fluff") they just want to built the best possible character to kill more stuff than other players and steal more treasure. So, if there's a really cool class thematically intended for a race, they don't want it to be class specific even if it makes sense for it to be, because they want to be able to min-max it and maybe another race can be more powerful with that.

Example: a 9th battalion Prestige Class (let's say the aforementioned Mage Hunters, meant to even the field since dwarves are not generally great arcanists, and an army meant to reclaim lost dwarven citadels surely needs to take that in account before going to battle) is clearly based on racial specific lore, but playing a human character with that prestige class is better because having 1 extra feat and more skill points allows to enter the class faster and generally gives "more power" than it would be for dwarves. If a min maxer decides the class is good enough to be played he would want to play a human, not a dwarf, despite the fact this makes little to no sense (in my experience the min-maxer reacts with outrage if you, as the DM, tell him his backstory of being reaaally good friends with dwarves doesn't really justify his character getting trained in said class, "because the rules say I can do this!")

Beckett wrote:

Thanks for that. I hate Racial restriction too.

And why is that?

Because too often it's not a racial requirement, it's a social requirement. Which is also a problem with racial trait which are really social instead.

Rogar Valertis wrote:

Beckett wrote:

Thanks for that. I hate Racial restriction too.

And why is that?

Because too often it's not a racial requirement, it's a social requirement. Which is also a problem with racial trait which are really social instead.

If I get this correctly you mean it's theoretically possible that people of a certain race teach their secrets to members of another, even if this is really unlikely (halfling resistance movement teaching teaching tieflings, elven isolationist druids teaching humans, dwarven traditionalists fighters obsessed with getting the sky-citadels back teaching half-orcs and so on...), because the write up of said prestige classes doesn't make it phisically mandatory to be a member of a certain race.

I think Paizo does NOT really like racial prcs.

Considering they just published a book full of racial class variants, they may have softened their opinion on that issue.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Rogar Valertis wrote:

Beckett wrote:

Thanks for that. I hate Racial restriction too.

And why is that?

Because too often it's not a racial requirement, it's a social requirement. Which is also a problem with racial trait which are really social instead.

If I get this correctly you mean it's theoretically possible that people of a certain race teach their secrets to members of another, even if this is really unlikely (halfling resistance movement teaching teaching tieflings, elven isolationist druids teaching humans, dwarven traditionalists fighters obsessed with getting the sky-citadels back teaching half-orcs and so on...), because the write up of said prestige classes doesn't make it phisically mandatory to be a member of a certain race.

So we are back at the "loophole" situation in which a player just wants to mix races and prestige classes not really thematically compatible for just power. Do you think that's a good thing?

It doesn't have to be about power. Can't he just want to be a half-orc that admires dwarfs and spared no effort to join their elite fighter? Can't he want to be a tiefling so heroic in among the resistance that the halflings decide to share their techniques? No race has a monopoly in any theme.

Ninjaxenomorph wrote:

My only beef with this book is that itwillhave a Winter Witch PC, when there was already an archetype for it. Make up your mind, Paizo!

They are intended to work hand in hand with each other.

I direct you to 2 posts from James Jacobs on this topic:

Here

and

Here

...And now I feel silly. Thanks!

Thanks for that. I hate Racial restriction too.

And why is that?

I gave some reasons why i think it's a good thing, I would like to know why other people oppose the idea of SOME prestige classes being racially restricted.

Really for a few reasons. I can't think of a single class whose race is so intrinsic that no other race can do it. Flavor is one thing, and I don't mind some PC's being 90% compossed of a certain race, but I hat absolutes in RPGs.

There should always be a reasonable arguement that any class, race, or whatever, under the right circumstances, be allowed entry into whatever group.

The other thing is that with new books, new material is added, and it gets very annoying when the flavor is there, but a mechanical bar prohibits something that otherwise does work just fine.

Another reason is because it limits what material can be used in home games and home settings. Having a requirement that some races get is not a bad thing, but a specific race is annoying and retracts from flavor, not adds to it.

to me and I may be biased, but there was nothing to tie the arcane archer and dwarven defender to any elven or dwarven culture of greyhawk( I say greyhawk becuase the 3.0 phb was greyhawk and nothing else).Even then it made no sense to me why my human fighter could not be a defender type, or a halfling fighter/mage could not study to be an arcane archer.

I've only seen a few racial prcs that made sense for its racial restrictions and a few of them are:
Halfling outrider
Bladesinger
champion of corellon larethian
deep rift defender( or somthing like that, it was the dwarven prc in the shining south book)

not to many others come to mind

to me and I may be biased, but there was nothing to tie the arcane archer and dwarven defender to any elven or dwarven culture of greyhawk( I say greyhawk becuase the 3.0 phb was greyhawk and nothing else).

Not refuting you as this is just where i connected them mentally, but for myself i always saw the arcane archers as coming from the Vale of the Mage.

Beckett wrote:

Thanks for that. I hate Racial restriction too.

Rogar Valertis wrote:

And why is that?

I gave some reasons why i think it's a good thing, I would like to know why other people oppose the idea of SOME prestige classes being racially restricted.

Really for a few reasons. I can't think of a single class whose race is so intrinsic that no other race can do it. Flavor is one thing, and I don't mind some PC's being 90% compossed of a certain race, but I hat absolutes in RPGs.

This right here. If I see a 'Winged Warrior' PrC or Feat or Archetype that says 'Raptorans only' I wonder why it has to be there at all. Couldn't an Aarokocra or Avariel or Strix or Al Karak Elam or Pixie or Half-Dragon develop similar training or techniques? Couldn't a dude who flew through artificially gained wings (a la Hawkman, or a high level Favored Soul, or shapeshifting variant Druid) develop these techniques?

The 'only powergamers would want to do this' argument is tired. If your best argument against something is impugning the character of the 'other side' of the issue, perhaps its time to go back to the drawing board.

New thread time?

I hope one of the 24 more is aimed at summoners with an extraplanar bent. I liked the angel, demon, devil eidolon suggestions in UM and hope they extend it.

asI said, Idon't think paizo like racial prcs. for them to do a winged warrior anything, yes it would have as a must" must be able to fly by natural means" which would imply the pc using said prc/archtype/feat must have wings, either by natural means, Stix. winged aasimar, half dragon, house ruled winged tieflings, winged elves, winged fey like pixxies, or have said wings grafted on to your character( not to say said wings would work if theiy're grafted).

a the sorceer bloodlines wwith wings, would only work if its afeat.

yeah, this needs to go to another thread.

Any word if they are updating the PRCs from the CRB? As it stands most are underpowered :(

It doesn't have to be about power. Can't he just want to be a half-orc that admires dwarfs and spared no effort to join their elite fighter? Can't he want to be a tiefling so heroic in among the resistance that the halflings decide to share their techniques? No race has a monopoly in any theme.

Worse than any rollplayer or minmaxer are people so staunch in thinking that role and roll are incompatible that they dismiss opportunities for roleplaying to stop possible minmaxing.

This could be a valid argument if you were talking about core books like ultimate combat or ultimate magic, yet in-campaign books mean to make the lore count. The fact some people want to play just THAT tiefling or THAT half-orc (the one in a million one who managed to get himself accepted and was so ennamored with people who didn't want to teach him anything...) usually means they don't care at all about the lore, they usually just want to keep all options open so they can profit from them mechanically. Then of course there's the time someone wants to roleplay something exotic for roleplaying sake. But all things considered it's really rare in my experience as a GM.

Again my point is this: limitations are a good thing. They help define things. If everyone was just able to do anything what would be the point of playing supposedly different things?

P.S.

This reminds me of other games, more role play centered than D&D. There were times I was asked by players to allow things like Baali as options avaiable for player characters. In all but one case I didn't allow it, and that was a one night game where the Baali was impersonating a Toreador and no one but me and the player knew. That was because I deemed Baali as unfit for players (as they are vampires bent on demon worship and do truly despicable and disturbing things). It took an exceptional situation AND an exceptional role-player for me to allow that. The same can be said for anyone who just want to play THAT one in a million character: if it's for roleplay you can allow it, but otherwise it's just a powerplayer testing his options, lore getting flushed down the toilet.

There is a differene between allowing a Baali, (says up fron NOT FOR PLAYERS) and insisting that some other random persons flavor is more important than your player's. Limitaions can be good thing, or they can be a bad and frustrating thing.

Any word if they are updating the PRCs from the CRB? As it stands most are underpowered :(

From the product description, these are new, Golarion-specific Prestige Classes.

If the Core Rulebook PrCs *were* to be upgraded, I would expect it in a world-neutral book, not in a Golarion-specific book like this.

Even then, I would expect a replacement class, not a revision of the existing class. If they were to upgrade the existing class, *that* would likely be done as errata in the Core Rulebook itself. That's unlikely, as Paizo has no wish to invalidate who-knows-how-much existing material there is that uses the PrCs as they are.

There is a differene between allowing a Baali, (says up fron NOT FOR PLAYERS) and insisting that some other random persons flavor is more important than your player's. Limitaions can be good thing, or they can be a bad and frustrating thing.

That's why I said just some racial prestige classes: to make this clear, I don't want a lot of racial only Prestige Classes, what I want is SOME racial prestige clesses to give the lore more in game depth.

I didnt mean that to come off as douchey as it may have. One of things I loved about the later 3.5 books is how they included alternate options for nearly every PC they did. I can't recall off hand what they said, but for instance a class meant for Wizards might allow a Cleric and get more or less spells per level, or even rogues that take for exampe the talent that grants spells.

There is a differene between allowing a Baali, (says up fron NOT FOR PLAYERS) and insisting that some other random persons flavor is more important than your player's. Limitaions can be good thing, or they can be a bad and frustrating thing.

Although not true for Pathfinder Society (which although fun, should not impact design decision in the slightest) a GM is more then welcome to make exceptions or re-skin things for their own personal games. In fact I think doing so would add flavor to the game, and I encourage my players to be imaginative and help develop the lure of the world I am trying to build. In a book designed specifically to accent the different flavors of Golarion, it would seem like it might be a missed opportunity to have a few race requirement Prestige Classes. If they do though, I would much rather they be more flavorful then say, the Arcane Archer, which just takes two stereotypical Elf traits, and makes it Elf only, for what seems like that reason alone.

kaisc006 wrote:

Any word if they are updating the PRCs from the CRB? As it stands most are underpowered :(

From the product description, these are new, Golarion-specific Prestige Classes.

Yeah well they need to make a FAQ or something that updates the PrCs from the CRB. No one plays them. Could be simple things such as making the Assassin any non-good alignment rather than evil. In PFS you're allowed to join an assassin's guild as a neutral character so why can't you become an assassin?

PFS and some DM's that think it is a good thing to be as by the book as possible are where things like this becom an issue, though. It's perfectly fine to say said group is almost exclusively elves, and more likely than not there are mechanical reasons to back this up. But it really starts to stretch belief (and ruin flavor) whena group is so short sighted or racist that they will only, under any condition, accept a single race, especially if that race is not intrinsic to the mechanics at all, like the 3E Dwarven Defender.

No reason that any other sturdy race with a conection to the earth (goliaths, stonehild, gnome, etc. . .) who wanted to focus on defense (ie not moving) shouldn't be able to learn their ways. Secondly, the one unique human racial feature is their adaptability mixed with ease of learning and ambition. seems like the should be able to learn any PC path that they can physically do, except for a pointless rule like racial requirements.

1 or 2 Racial only classes might be acceptible, if they have an overwhelming reason why only that race is allowed. The only group I can think of in PF that is even close to this are the Lightbringer Elves, who want to hide the existance of Drow, their true origin, and all real information from the rest of the world as a personal sense of disgrace, and actively sometimes go out and kill people if they are found to know a few to many secrets about the Drow. That's still kind of pushing it.

That being said, I think we should probably stop derailing. I'm not trying to argue or say you are wrong as much as just explain my point of view, which is not purely or even mainly min/max based. It's a part of it just as much as it is about my character's flavor, goals, and concept.

Any news on this one?

I haven't heard anything lately but would love to know the names of all the prestige classes in this book.

I haven't heard anything lately but would love to know the names of all the prestige classes in this book.

It's due in August, so come Gencon I'd imagine you'll hear a lot more. I don't use Golarian as a setting, but I'm interested in seeing the prestige classes.

Urath DM wrote:

kaisc006 wrote:

Any word if they are updating the PRCs from the CRB? As it stands most are underpowered :(

From the product description, these are new, Golarion-specific Prestige Classes.

Yeah well they need to make a FAQ or something that updates the PrCs from the CRB. No one plays them. Could be simple things such as making the Assassin any non-good alignment rather than evil. In PFS you're allowed to join an assassin's guild as a neutral character so why can't you become an assassin?

Plenty of people play them. I've done a Duelist, Arcane Archer, and Mystic Theurge before. I've also had friends do Dragon Disciple, Eldritch Knight, and Loremaster. A few aren't that great, but so what? I'd much rather have a book with new and exciting ways to make a character than revisions on classes that plenty of people have no problem with in the first place.

Dragon78 wrote:

I haven't heard anything lately but would love to know the names of all the prestige classes in this book.

It's due in August, so come Gencon I'd imagine you'll hear a lot more. I don't use Golarian as a setting, but I'm interested in seeing the prestige classes.

That is no good -- GenCon starts August 16th, the same day the product is currently scheduled to ship to stores. I really hope we get more information before then!

Sleepless Detective - WUT R U?

Sleepless Detective - WUT R U?

Very, very tired.

DM: the cave is 10' by 10' and goes into the hill, its all dark.

-Ok, ill mount the mammoth, raise the lance and charge.

DM: ya know.. your mammoth is a bit too big.

-ill tell the mammoth to crouch?

I woke up this morning glum about the lack of prestige classes in Golarion. I go on the boards, get a link to this product and -boom- my frustration is gone.

...

And what about a Alchemist/Gunslinger prestige class?
...

Why only 64 pages? Aaaargh.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/269/670/723.jpg

Like this?

Probly a wildshaped druid with a shark companion and dipped into gunslinger and alchemist :D

So -- When do we get some sneak peeks at this book? Surely we can find out something between now and the release of this product during Gencon. Or has it been delayed again?

It's set to release at GenCon, but I don't have any control over what (or if) things get previewed!

I think, Aldori Swordlord should be previewed, not because I have a Kingmaker game coming up or anything.

I hope the Hellknight Signifier gets previewed. because I really want to see a hellknight caster.

Paladin of Irori!

It's set to release at GenCon, but I don't have any control over what (or if) things get previewed!

D:

;_;

I hope the Hellknight Signifier gets previewed. because I really want to see a hellknight caster.

Blah hellknights are overrated. Now Abyssal Shadow Knights, thats the good stuff. :)

Stratagemini wrote:

I hope the Hellknight Signifier gets previewed. because I really want to see a hellknight caster.

Blah hellknights are overrated. Now Abyssal Shadow Knights, thats the good stuff. :)

Someone's rooting for the home team :)

So I was wondering if we might see something on the Osirion Risen Guard or a new prestige class tied to the Pathfinder Society?

I guess we won't hear much until somebody gets their hands on a copy at Gencon -- all the previews lately are focused on Ultimate Equipment.

The subscribers got our "In the next week..." emails yesterday, so it may ship out to us by Tuesday or so.

Not holding my breath for that, but hey, it could happen.

So I was wondering if we might see something on the Osirion Risen Guard or a new prestige class tied to the Pathfinder Society?

There are no reprinted classes in this book.

Rusty Ironpants wrote:

So I was wondering if we might see something on the Osirion Risen Guard or a new prestige class tied to the Pathfinder Society?

There are no reprinted classes in this book.

Is the Risen Guard actually printed as a prestige class somewhere? All I am aware of is the prestige award in Pathfinder Society Field Guide.

James Jacobs wrote:

Rusty Ironpants wrote:

So I was wondering if we might see something on the Osirion Risen Guard or a new prestige class tied to the Pathfinder Society?

There are no reprinted classes in this book.

Is the Risen Guard actually printed as a prestige class somewhere? All I am aware of is the prestige award in Pathfinder Society Field Guide.

I... hmmm. I guess that was the living monument in the Osirion player's guide back in the day.

(Makes notes...)

Is the Risen Guard actually printed as a prestige class somewhere? All I am aware of is the prestige award in Pathfinder Society Field Guide.

There's a 4th-level example of a Risen Guardsmen in the NPC Guide. He's a ranger 2/fighter 2 I believe. No prestige class though.

Rusty Ironpants wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Rusty Ironpants wrote:

So I was wondering if we might see something on the Osirion Risen Guard or a new prestige class tied to the Pathfinder Society?

There are no reprinted classes in this book.

Is the Risen Guard actually printed as a prestige class somewhere? All I am aware of is the prestige award in Pathfinder Society Field Guide.

I... hmmm. I guess that was the living monument in the Osirion player's guide back in the day.

(Makes notes...)

Okay, now I am less confused. :) I just double checked my copy of the Osirion Players guide last night to be sure.

But I guess I can take that as "No Risen Guard in Paths to Prestige".