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James, You have mentioned a couple of times now how some of the PrCs based on some of the existing archetype are viewed as the professional side of the "in-training" archetypes. I'm curious then how much they will differ from the archetypes and what is genuinely added. With the Aldori Swordlord,you have a series of passive aggressive options, that allow a fighter to become the supreme master of defensive fighting, and IMHO, make deviating any time before 12th level silly. Can you speak to how these PrCs will be attractive options for the mid-level character? I know it is still very early in the development stage and if certain details are revealed too early you will be getting a visit from the Anaphexia,but I am genuinely interested in knowing where the PrCs are going to be aimed in the life of a 20 level character growth.
I'll be interested to see what people think of the classes once this has been published...
Since this book is for the Innersea region, I would say the odds of getting a Ninja/Monk prestige class is very low. But I wouldn't mind seeing it one day though.
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I woke up this morning glum about the lack of prestige classes in Golarion. I go on the boards, get a link to this product and -boom- my frustration is gone.
I can't wait to read the Alkenstar Shield Marshall and the Hellknight Signifier!
I know the chances are low, but a Tengu Samurai prestige class would be glorious.
And what about a Alchemist/Gunslinger prestige class?
Or a Mounted Summoner/Cavalier?
Or a Sarenrae-infused Holy Fire Pyromancer?
Or a Dark Tapestry obsessed astrologer wizard?
Or a mutant Rovagug Cultist Barbarian?
Or a Irrisen-based Inquisitor Witch-hunter?
Why only 64 pages? Aaaargh.
I think this book is a very bad idea.
I like the Pathfinder campaign setting, but Inner Sea Magic and this book are starting to make me wonder if I really need the subscription, or if I should start just buying the PDFs that really interest me separately.
Would you care to elaborate at all why you think it's a bad idea? Or why you didn't like Inner Sea Magic for that matter.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I am not a fan of prestige classes at all, in fact the "Complete XYZ" series of 3.5 sourcebooks was a colossal waste of development time to me. To me, Prestige classes are about making base classes obsolete. Maybe not the first generation of any particular incarnation, but always the following.
If it's new, it has to be coolerbettermorepowerful. Since a PrC does not involve giving something up in exchange for what you're getting, the PrC character will outshine the normal or archetyped PC.
Finally, Prestige classes are all mutually compatible, so you can easily mix 5 into the same build. Archetypes, by virtue of their trading of abilities, quickly become incompatible. This cuts down the interactions, prevents a lot of 2-level dipping and reduces the overall amount of cheese.
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To me, Prestige classes are about making base classes obsolete.
Well, from what I've seen from Paizo, that doesn't seem to be their goal at all.
Since a PrC does not involve giving something up in exchange for what you're getting, the PrC character will outshine the normal or archetyped PC.
That may have been the case back in 3.5, but consider that every single class now loses something major when deciding to multiclass or take a PrC. In 3.5, a sorcerer only lost familiar advancement. In PF, they lose out on their bloodline powers, bonus feats, and bonus spells, making a significant opportunity cost to taking any PrC. Every single one of them *does* give up something in exchange for their abilities.
So, really, I don't think there's any problem with the concept of Prestige Classes at all. They may have been abused and poorly implemented in some cases during the development of 3rd edition, but so far I haven't seen any even remotely problematic Prestige Classes from Paizo.
I agree with Mechalibur on this one. Prestige Classes, for the first time, have a downside. I agree that a lot of the Spellcasting classes didn't have anything to lose for those Prestige Classes in 3.5; that was an issue. I don't think that is a problem anymore, but if you couldn't tell, Paizo has been somewhat conservative with Prestige Classes that alter spellcasting (I can only think of five off the top of my head, compared to the 7 or 8 I could easy spout out for fighting classes) compared to 3.5.
I think there's a market for both types of product; Settings-neutral prestige classes and Golarion-specific ones. Maybe there's even a market for Settings-Neutral softcovers too; instead of flooding your Hardcover books with Prestige Classes, maybe we could see a quarterly 64-Page modular softcover or something. Softcovers could be small expansions and ideas while Hardcovers could be reserved to the big ones.
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My goal with the prestige classes in this book is to support Golarion-specific groups and organizations and factions with prestige classes. It is NOT to power up existing classes or to support specific multiclass combos—some of the latter will happen as a sort of side effect (such as by building a paladin of Irori class would result in a monk/paladin option)... but the philosophical push behind this book is to support Golarion's religions and fighting schools and traditions and factions and monsters with rules.
And it serves another purpose. We really HAVEN'T done much with prestige classes yet—and many of the ones we have done are merely revisions of 3.5 ones or relatively rules-focused classes. I'm eager to see what we can come up with for more flavor-heavy classes... eager to try to present a new philosophy on what a prestige class can and should be... and eager to see if there IS a market for books like this.
Because if we don't experiment... we get stagnant.
just scanned through the posts and saw nothin on druids mentioned. Please please please have a Pc that focuses on wildshape over spells.
Don't have time to sift through the past posts, but I'm relatively positive that Jacobs stated there's a PrC designed for every class . . . which I'd wager includes druids! ;)
just scanned through the posts and saw nothin on druids mentioned. Please please please have a Pc that focuses on wildshape over spells.Don't have time to sift through the past posts, but I'm relatively positive that Jacobs stated there's a PrC designed for every class . . . which I'd wager includes druids! ;)
Not quite; he said every class should be able to take at least one Prestige Class. That doesn't mean that doing so is going to be particularly beneficial to them all the time (sort of like a Witch who becomes an Arcane Trickster).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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My goal with the prestige classes in this book is to support Golarion-specific groups and organizations and factions with prestige classes. It is NOT to power up existing classes or to support specific multiclass combos—some of the latter will happen as a sort of side effect (such as by building a paladin of Irori class would result in a monk/paladin option)... but the philosophical push behind this book is to support Golarion's religions and fighting schools and traditions and factions and monsters with rules.
Color me sceptical, for me a Hellknight Signifier works perfectly as an Asmodean cleric with a penchant for wearing spiky armor. But I do get the desire to expand and experiment - its only natural, since "more of the same" isn't very satisfying for any designer, let alone the highly creative people the hobby attracts.
The philosophical axe I am grinding is the "You're not really an X unless you have the class to prove it" mentality. A level 20 mage who designed 5 personal spells, and took part in crafting an artifact has every right to be called an archmage, even if he never so much as dabbled in the PrC.
I'll see how this plays out - your statement at least reduced my initial worries somewhat. I hope you reach your goal, because even though prestige classes as you describe them will never be my favorite part of the game, maybe if handled in this way they don't grow to the excesses of previous incarnations.
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The philosophical axe I am grinding is the "You're not really an X unless you have the class to prove it" mentality.
I totally agree with that. If my Bard / Cleric of Achaekek works as a 'Red Mantis Assassin,' the fact that she is *never* going to take a level in the Prestige Class of the same name shouldn't ghetto-ize her.
Similarly, I'd imagine that the vast majority of 'Hellknights' probably don't have levels in the Hellknight PrC.
Not quite; he said every class should be able to take at least one Prestige Class. That doesn't mean that doing so is going to be particularly beneficial to them all the time (sort of like a Witch who becomes an Arcane Trickster).just scanned through the posts and saw nothin on druids mentioned. Please please please have a Pc that focuses on wildshape over spells.Don't have time to sift through the past posts, but I'm relatively positive that Jacobs stated there's a PrC designed for every class . . . which I'd wager includes druids! ;)
I would settle for the prestige classes just being worth considering for the class in question. We already have many prestige classes that advance spellcasting, but most Pathfinder spellcasters from the APG would never consider them because they have other class features that they value even more. Will there be a witch prestige class that grants hexes, or a summoner prestige class that grants eidolon advancement, for example?
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So, you said that the idea governing Prestige creation was "Which organization/religion/society needs a prestige class in the inner Sea region?"
If that so, does Cayden Cailean's Church get a prestige? Or is chevalier all we get?
On a related note! Are all of these 10 level prestiges? or are there some 5 and 3 levels mixed in?
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So, you said that the idea governing Prestige creation was "Which organization/religion/society needs a prestige class in the inner Sea region?"
If that so, does Cayden Cailean's Church get a prestige? Or is chevalier all we get?
On a related note! Are all of these 10 level prestiges? or are there some 5 and 3 levels mixed in?
Nothing specifically Cayden Cailean related in the book, but there's certainly going to be some good cleric choices.
They're all 10 level classes. 5 and 3 level concepts are, in my opinion, better served as archetypes.
What I'm wondering is how much the Aldori "duelist" prestige class and the Core duelist prestige class will look alike/differentiate from each other.
The Aldori Dueling Mastery feat already lets you treat the Aldori dueling sword as a piercing weapon for the duelist class and the focus on fighting defensively synergize quite well, so I'm hoping the PrC for the Swordlords will mesh even better.
I'll be getting the book if only for that PrC since my character starting on Saturday is an Aldori Swordlord. Hopefully the pre-reqs will be pretty intuitive (Aldori Swordlord fighter archetype, Aldori Dueling Mastery feat...)
wonder if there will be something for nidal shadow druids, was dissapointed there wasn't an archtype in inner sea magic.
So, you said that the idea governing Prestige creation was "Which organization/religion/society needs a prestige class in the inner Sea region?"
If that so, does Cayden Cailean's Church get a prestige? Or is chevalier all we get?
On a related note! Are all of these 10 level prestiges? or are there some 5 and 3 levels mixed in?
Nothing specifically Cayden Cailean related in the book, but there's certainly going to be some good cleric choices.
They're all 10 level classes. 5 and 3 level concepts are, in my opinion, better served as archetypes.
I personally don't like 3-level prestige classes, but I disagree on the 5-level ones. Halfling Opportunist is the perfect example of a Prestige Class that only needs five levels to do its thing, but wouldn't work as an archetype. After all, restricting the class just to rogues (which would be the most obvious choice if turned into an archetype) removes the point that the class is for halflings of all creed that make their own luck.
But that's just my two sp.
So, you said that the idea governing Prestige creation was "Which organization/religion/society needs a prestige class in the inner Sea region?"
If that so, does Cayden Cailean's Church get a prestige? Or is chevalier all we get?
On a related note! Are all of these 10 level prestiges? or are there some 5 and 3 levels mixed in?
Nothing specifically Cayden Cailean related in the book, but there's certainly going to be some good cleric choices.
They're all 10 level classes. 5 and 3 level concepts are, in my opinion, better served as archetypes.
Interesting. Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that prestige classes should be either 3, 5, or 15-levels, with 10s being just plain annoying.
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]Interesting. Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that prestige classes should be either 3, 5, or 15-levels, with 10s being just plain annoying.
15? I don't think I've ever heard of a 15. That said, I rather like the idea of 5 level prestiges. They're much easier to slip into a progression, they don't work quite as well as archetypes as the 3 level prestiges, and they make a certain amount of intuitive sense over 10 level prestiges in that they're easier to actually run to the end in a typical campaign (Which lets assume ends somewhere between level 10 and level 16).
]Interesting. Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that prestige classes should be either 3, 5, or 15-levels, with 10s being just plain annoying.15? I don't think I've ever heard of a 15. That said, I rather like the idea of 5 level prestiges. They're much easier to slip into a progression, they don't work quite as well as archetypes as the 3 level prestiges, and they make a certain amount of intuitive sense over 10 level prestiges in that they're easier to actually run to the end in a typical campaign (Which lets assume ends somewhere between level 10 and level 16).
There was a version of Hellknight that went up till level 15, if I remember right. I think it was in one of the Council of Thieves books.
You are correct Icyshadow, they list a 15 level PrC for the Hellknights, as you can start it at level 5.
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There was a version of Hellknight that went up till level 15, if I remember right. I think it was in one of the Council of Thieves books.]Interesting. Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that prestige classes should be either 3, 5, or 15-levels, with 10s being just plain annoying.15? I don't think I've ever heard of a 15. That said, I rather like the idea of 5 level prestiges. They're much easier to slip into a progression, they don't work quite as well as archetypes as the 3 level prestiges, and they make a certain amount of intuitive sense over 10 level prestiges in that they're easier to actually run to the end in a typical campaign (Which lets assume ends somewhere between level 10 and level 16).
Yup... That was something of an experiment. Since then, though... we've moved on to doing full base classes. A 15 level prestige class that's got too much going on to be a 10 level class is better served by being a base class in my opinion.
Yup... That was something of an experiment. Since then, though... we've moved on to doing full base classes. A 15 level prestige class that's got too much going on to be a 10 level class is better served by being a base class in my opinion.There was a version of Hellknight that went up till level 15, if I remember right. I think it was in one of the Council of Thieves books.]Interesting. Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that prestige classes should be either 3, 5, or 15-levels, with 10s being just plain annoying.15? I don't think I've ever heard of a 15. That said, I rather like the idea of 5 level prestiges. They're much easier to slip into a progression, they don't work quite as well as archetypes as the 3 level prestiges, and they make a certain amount of intuitive sense over 10 level prestiges in that they're easier to actually run to the end in a typical campaign (Which lets assume ends somewhere between level 10 and level 16).
To me, the fifteen-level hellknight said: "You may have been a fighter, or a ranger, cavalier, maybe even a paladin... but now you're a hellknight, you're a hellknight for life." I liked that. :)
It also provided, effectively, a replacement for the capstone you're never otherwise going to see until we get mythic rules.
Any prestige classes with less then 10 levels is just a way for characters to power game. I have never liked the 3 or 5 level prestige classes myself, all my favorite prestige classes were 10 level ones. Also the idea of prestige classes with more 10 levels is just lame and are just going overboard.
Will there be any PRCs for witches?
I think James mentioned that the winter witch gets one.
I really hope there's at least one really cool Inquisitor PrC, I love that class a lot, but right now, there isn't any PrC that makes me want to give up the awesome abilities of class itself.
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I really hope there's at least one really cool Inquisitor PrC, I love that class a lot, but right now, there isn't any PrC that makes me want to give up the awesome abilities of class itself.
The inquisitor is fine as it is. There is no need for an 'Inquisitor+' PrC. If you want some variation on the theme of a class, archetypes work better (although I have to say, there is a certain lack of good inquisitor archetypes right now).
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I partially agree witht the 3 level PrCs, though I think out of the few I've seen, they actually did very well (and better than archtypes) for what they where intended. I prefere 5 level PrC the most, but I think that 10th level should be the abosolute max. 10 levels is already kind of pushing the bounds of basically either being a multiclass or a new core <variant> class itself, and really doesn't add anything to the theme past a few levels, in my opinion.
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Three or five level PrCs are my favorites. Too many times, a 10 level PrC has a bunch of levels that do nothing more than advance spellcasting or advance sneak attack or add a bonus fighter feat, in which case making them both redundant with and inferior to taking another level in the base class.
A PrC level that doesn't do something new and original compared to the base class it's branching off from is a wasted level. If it doesn't advance *all* of the class abilities of the base class (familiar advancement, channel energy, rogue talent acquisition, etc.) then it's worse than a wasted level, it's inferior to a level in wizard, cleric, rogue, etc. which hardly seems very 'prestigious.'
Favored class bonuses make 'dead levels' in a PrC even less attractive than they were in 3.X.
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I agree with the favored class bones, sometimes to the point that I just drop the entire concept. The other issue I have with the 10level PrCs is with the 3/4 BaB. It always kind of screws them over over both the 10 level progression and because of the entry level is right at the point they don't normally advance.
While it is still true witht he 5 or 3 level PrC's, it is less of an overall obsticle.
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The other issue I have with the 10level PrCs is with the 3/4 BaB. It always kind of screws them over over both the 10 level progression and because of the entry level is right at the point they don't normally advance.
Fractional BAB and Fractional Saves seem like no-brainers for this sort of thing (and for Monk / Rogues, etc.). I'm surprised that this isn't a core rule.
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I agree, but that doesn't so much help in either PFS official games, or when some DM's don't get the concept or just say no. I like Fractional BaB/Saves, personally, and honestly I wish it where the core idea.
Monte Cook's WoD also had a fantastic idea that kind of bridged the gap between the level system and other Rpg styles, in which at the end of every game the player gets to advance a portion of the "level up" as they wish. The only real restriction is that you can't do the same aspect again until the entire would-be level is complete. So your HP might go up, or you might get new spells/day, or skill points. It was really good in the sense that it felt like something was always improving.
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Three or five level PrCs are my favorites. Too many times, a 10 level PrC has a bunch of levels that do nothing more than advance spellcasting or advance sneak attack or add a bonus fighter feat, in which case making them both redundant with and inferior to taking another level in the base class.
A PrC level that doesn't do something new and original compared to the base class it's branching off from is a wasted level. If it doesn't advance *all* of the class abilities of the base class (familiar advancement, channel energy, rogue talent acquisition, etc.) then it's worse than a wasted level, it's inferior to a level in wizard, cleric, rogue, etc. which hardly seems very 'prestigious.'
Favored class bonuses make 'dead levels' in a PrC even less attractive than they were in 3.X.
I agree in part with what you're sating. Dead levels in PrCs were never fun, and favored class bonuses make them more so. BUT! as far as your ideas that PrCs need to advance all the class abilities of teh base class? That's ridiculous. PrCs aren't supposed to be a way to "power Up" your Character. and that sort of thing would make it so that only an Idiot would decide to go full Base class.
That's not the point of PrCs. A PrC is a class where you sacrifice elements of your base class in order to gain new, different, and exciting abilities. they're sort of like Archetypes in that way. You sacrifice some abilities for others to come out in the area of the same general power level as others of your level, but doing things very differently. One of the great things that Paizo did was balance the base Classes to be more attractive to take all 20 levels in.
I'm not advocating dead levels, A dead level is no fun. But there's no need for a PrC to give you everything you would have gotten in your base class. and honestly? It's a horrible mistake of design if it does do so, because then it should have been an Archetype instead.
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I agree in part with what you're sating. Dead levels in PrCs were never fun, and favored class bonuses make them more so. BUT! as far as your ideas that PrCs need to advance all the class abilities of teh base class? That's ridiculous.
I didn't say that. I said that a PrC level that doesn't add anything new, and doesn't increase all of your base class abilities, is inferior to a base class level, and therefore junk.
I agree in part with what you're s[t]ating. Dead levels in PrCs were never fun, and favored class bonuses make them more so.
Yes...but the idea that you can fill in those dead levels with level-inappropriate frippery and suddenly it becomes a non-dead level is silly.
I'm thinking of the (3.5) Shackles Pirate, where a level 10 character is supposed to get excited about a +2 bonus to sneaking around in swamps. And the Pathfinder Chronicler, where a level 11 character is given the ability to summon a handful of 4 HD barbarians...once a week!